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Problem with Games in general: Lack of Intelligent A.I and Animation?
darkedone02
Member UncommonPosts: 581
I've been playing alot of games recently that has great potential, yet after playing it and reaching though mid-level and exploring most of the game's depth of constant, It starts to get boring. I'm killing my enemies the same way over and over, press 1 for stun, press 2 for a massive attack, etc and the enemy dies, repeat. I do feel that sometimes when i face against an enemy, it can be immune to my stun or have a big armor rating to where my damage is reduced when fighting these foes, but what lacking is they don't evade my attacks or out-smart me, i could easily get behind it and hit it enough times until it goes down or move.
the problem with games these days are how the A.I is pretty much as smart as a turtle and so systematically scripted in a way that they don't act like players and are easily overwhelm and don't think enough to avoid my attack, don't know how to out-smart me and hit me by the attack, or bait me for his A.I. companions to surround and damage me alot. There is no challenge at all when dealing with PvE mobs, no matter your mechanics that you added in the raid, as we can easily go though them by time and end up beaten the boss, as the boss don't know how to damage 25 players beaten on his ass with a massive AoE, or change his mechanics to where it's not the same 3 things that changes daily (I'm looking at your, world of warcraft... ).
I want PvE to become a bit more smarter to where it's almost feel like i'm going against another player who is just as smart or me or more experience then me, and could kick my ass unless i switch things around and out-smart him. With a better A.I, things get's challenging and it don't feel like i'm doing the same rotation over and over on my abilities, to where rotation can become completely null when you face against something that act more then human.
One other thing that i've noticed is that there is a lack of free movement and animation, such as the ability to move while shooting magical spells for example, sure you can do that but not all of the abilities in certain games. Why can't I be able to move when charging up a spell, it makes me look vulnerable and after casting the same easy fireball, why do i still have to stand still to cast it? ain't a level 45 wizard be able to move while casting a simple spell but unable to fire it unless he stands still instead or more advance to where he/she be able to cast and shoot without having to stand still after the dozen times he/she cast it?
One thing that I've also noticed is that I'm using the same animation as i am casting a spell, why is it always the palms of my hand instead of channeling the power with my staff or blade or whatever I'm wielding? for example, great I've gotten a sword that increase my magic power by +90, is wieldable by wizards, priests, and warlocks, yet when i cast my icebolt, why am i still using my hands, it should be animating by my blade since my hands are not as powerful as the blade itself that enchanted? Therefore i think our developers are lacking to add in extra animations into the games, and prefer repetitive animations over newer usage of animations when it comes to player item equipment. The only game that kinda does this is guild wars 2, but it uses the same animation style over and over, I've expected the sword to not always hit left first, top, and another top swing, I've expect it to hit at random locations.
Do anyone else noticed this problem that i've seen or what?
Comments
Both these aspects are largely hinged on the kind of game and consequently the kind of elements you are producing in the game.
If you look at AI it generally runs the gamut in games from being as dumb as a brick to more or less constantly cheating. You tend to find more complex AI employed when the challenge is focused on a much more finite element, like if you are playing a fighting game such as Soul Calibur, Street Fighter, Clay Fighter, or Tekken.
The AI there has to be better, because the game is focused singularly on the bout between only a couple characters.
Similarly RTS AI might have anything ranging from plodding AI to ones that seem to stampede their way through the the whole map faster than you can pull off as a human being. It differs dramatically based on where the focus lies.
In an MMO it's more common to have lighter AI for a few reasons.
Performance - A game can only manage so many things at once, and the more mobs that are spawned the more things the server has to control. Limiting the complexity of AI can help to keep the game stable while controlling what is effectively a swarm spread across an entire game world.
Volume - Similarly it applies to a personal level too. It's not abnormal for most MMOs to have differing amount of mobs grouped together instead of you fighting just one mob. Lowering the average intelligence and performance of the individual monster helps compensate for the difficulty created by trying to manage a group conflict as an individual player.
User Friendliness - As much as we like to think of ourselves as hardcore gamers at times, there has to be the realization that many people are not looking for something that keeps them perpetually on their toes. There is a strong passive element for the challenge of a game to be presented via the amount of health a creature has and the damage it deals rather than the actual technical level of difficulty it takes to fight the thing.
This is because a game that's designed to be played by masses of people generally needs to cater to a level of difficulty that won't alienate a large segment of the user base.
Maker Friendliness - On top of all this is the issue of how to make the AI on the dev side. A more complex AI sounds great in theory, but there's multiple ways in which an AI can be made more intelligent, and doing so the right way to the right level is a very touchy task.
As well, even if the AI is more complex, unless it has some form of adaptive feature, it's going to be broken down sooner or latter into a formula for players to beat. This adds the concern that the amount of effort put into the AI eventually becomes for naught as the ultimate goal is the same of players exploiting the limits of the AI's behavior.
My general though on how to solve it is largely the same as how I'd approach most game elements in that you would make a core framework which contains all the standard AI behavior, but then have everything else built as modules that control the personality of the AI. Instead of giving them solid states, things like aggressiveness would be built with a sliding scale that introduces differing amounts of hostility they might display.
Couple that with an expanded set of behavioral elements like how likely an enemy is to defend themselves, fall back from combat, etc.
With a system like this you might be able to set up ranges for different creature types using those modular parameters, that way a certain type of creature will have the same overall behaviors, but just a wee bit of variety that can throw off the monotony of their actions.
As for rooted combat animations.
Mostly that's a choice of the developers in how they want their combat to feel and theoretically to enforce some level of balance.
I've personally never been fond of it, though I could understand a movement penalty or disabling for some kinds of actions.
Brain is fuzzy on that aspect of games at the moment.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I'm really hoping that EQ Next implements some changes in AI behavior. They're teaming up with Storybricks whose specialty is AI. What I've seen is mostly AI facial movement, but I think they cover the whole AI spectrum.
It'd be nice to have mobs that are smarter and don't have a hard leash, and have NPC's that can interact at a low, but immersive level.
I'd like to see just what the OP said with NPC's setting up traps and ambushes and calling for help with graphics and sound and the like.
It's not the most important game feature for me, but it's one of the things I think could be improved upon to make games better.
Asdar
you are talking about something that doesn't exist.
magic.
The D&D explanation for not moving or moving slowly was that it took concentration. This is something that I've always agreed with.
But there is no point to argue because magic doesn't exist. If the creators want it so that players have to "concentrate" then so be it. Same with archery I imagine though I don't know of many archers who can run and shoot at the same time. But maybe it's possible?
I prefer when your character has to stand still to perform complex activities because it means you have to make a choice.
Either be mobile or attack.
As far as AI is concerned that depends on what the game is trying to entail. I do see a lot of players say they want "challenge" but the reality is they don't.
In Lineage 2 there was an area that was not only difficult but the mobs would run and get allies if they need them. That might not sound like a big deal now but years ago it was pretty neat.
Problem was that no one went there because easier killing could be found elsewhere.
In mmo's mobs are essentially power-ups.
That's their purpose. You don't' increase ai on a power-up.
This doesn't mean that you can't have better ai in a game but how many players are going to continue to play your game when each fight takes a full three minutes of battling for your life for a small incremental xp boost?
It takes quite a lot of effort to fight an increased ai opponent which of course is "good" but also leaves one a bit exhausted. After a few fights people are just going to log off as "every" encounter is going to be a knock em/sock em fight.
Part of this goes toward pacing.
so like i said, it depends on what the game is really trying to accomplish.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I think the AI is that low because of the way the levelling content is constructed. The goal in a mmo is to collect xp and loot, and in the end mobs are nothing but containers for xp and loot. You interact with hem and collect the reward.
Players develop a mindset in that everything is judged according to its effectiveness to collect xp and loot. Everything else (exploring the world, talking to npcs, interacting with other players) is nice but useless.
This makes players to want to kill mobs as fast as possible no matter if the fight was fun. An intelligent mob is stopping you from killing it fast and gaining reward and this creates frustration. Everyone in wow hates fighting murlocs, and this is because they are one of the most intelligent opponents in the game. (and this does mean that their behaviour consists of five lines of code instead of two) They run away and call in reinforcements. This makes fighting them much more complicated compared to mobs that stand and die.
I think this is also the reason why games have so many trash-mobs. The make you think that you are making progress. I have notices that there is a percentage of players that build um growing frustration if the are not gaining anything for 7 seconds.
I also hope EQN brings some AI variation. They already liven up NPCs with SoEMote and NPCs "talking" so expanding on that sounds really immersive.
For MMORPGs, AI is designed to lose. But it needs to lose in an interesting way which acts as a sort of combat puzzle.
Certain forms of intelligence could probably make it more fun to play against, but if it started acting especially intelligent then that usually starts to work against the quality of the combat puzzle.
And developers have said this time after time, about how players have pointed out that the devs' games are no fun (in certain genres) when the AI is smart without a good reason to be.
If combat is too simple or not varied enough then the game has failed to actually create a good combat puzzle, but in that case the solution isn't better AI but better combat and class design.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
" wow this game is good in every way but I can't play it because the A.I and animation is bad"
Said no one ever
i have to disagree with you on that. anything, any work that you put your heart and soul into is magic. a piece of artwork that you painted with passion, a poetry or a novel you are writing that you are putting all of your concentration and feelings into; is magic. magic exists in our everyday life, we just refuse to see it. and indeed magic requires concentration. when an artist is drawing his/her masterpiece s/he doesn't move away from house, doesn't eat/sleep/take bath, that is what requires to cast magic. and that is why in games we see spell with cast times forcing us to stand still.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
er, well, you are welcome to that opinion if you like and more power to you.
My degree is in musical composition and my family is rife with artists, musicians and writers and I don't really see it that way.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Totally wrong on several points.
1) Games can be challenging with minimal AI. Have you played Diablo 3? Try MP10 in hard core mode. It is very challenging, and while the mobs does a bunch of interesting stuff (from putting on a shield, to root you, to put fire on the ground), their AI is pretty simple. Have you tried WOW hard mode raid (or any hard mode raid)? Very challenging, but Ai is minimal. The challenge is in the scripting.
2) More intelligence AI is not that difficult to make. How hard is it to say "run away, find cover, shoot back, and shoot at magic user first"? WOW tried that in an encounter called "Faction Champion" back in tier-9 raid. Very much fighting like pvp, with no threat table to manage, and NPCs uses many skills user have. What happened? People complained and they nerfed it.
So I'm reading that some people agrees with me and some people kind of disagree with me on it as well which all and all is fine. The reason why I bought up this debate with games is just like what most of these people say, they become very easy to the point where I find it repetitive that I'm killing the mobs over the same rotation which I've already said in my original post, I wish that AI becomes a bit smarter to even the playing field to where it's not design to become easy, but a bit harder but still a bit smarter then average.
I've came up with an original thought for sandbox games to where this will be a prime example. The idea is allowing the mobs become smart enough in combat and in join in numbers to raid villages and cities that players and other NPC's has made. To where let say a lich somehow move into the local town's graveyard via some underground passage that nobody seems to noticed. Later in your town, you noticed that the town starting having a undead problem as you noticed a few skeleton and zombies started appearing out of the blue, and your own citizens are being killed by them. The next day or so after the incident, you now see a big amount of undead in the graveyard, preparing to siege the very city your in, you think this was an event at first until one day, your clansman decided to eliminate the undead threat in your graveyard and slay whatever is causing this before the city get's over-runned by it. As soon as you found out that the lich was causing it and slayed him in your local crypt, you noticed that your crypt was somehow turn into what look like a dungeon and you also found out how he end up over here in the first place when their is a small passage near the cliff side.
In other words, A.I. become smart by attempting to raze your village and cities, and the more that they raze or gain via unfortunate travelers that crosses their way, they gain strength and powerful and grow stronger to be able to raid villages, if left unattended, they will have the ability to raid cities and you have a huge battle awaiting to happen like it's helm's deep all over again, sounds fun and challenging and make it a duty to slay these monster before they start growing big in time, and be a hindrance later on. Once the players kill the headmaster or kill them all, depending on what they are and their ruling system. A.I.s can make their own styled dungeons so it be interesting to see how well that goblin camp turned out. Also after you cleared it out, you get some of your loot back if it was not used by the A.I., plus more
I think complex AI would be great but I dunno if were there yet for MMOs, we barely get any good AI in single player games which dont have to deal with the player actions and processes...now making more intelligently scripted systems would be great for a start. I am no programmer but I assume the reason we still have such dumb AI in MMOs is because it is resource heavy both in game and for development...or just not technologically feasible at the moment.
I think some of the framework for MMOs worlds needs to be changed until the day we have better AI in games. Once we get legitimate smart systems for NPCs that adapt to player input then we will have more what looks like more intelligent AI...and well when we have real AI everything about current MMOs will probably be thrown out of the window since it can then initiate games to adapt directly to our actions in a more logical and less scripted manner.
Maybe a more robust IF - THEN response from enemies, and not a universal sheet one that is made based around the enemy/creatures "behavior" and applicable circumstances. Example: You want to fight a deer, lets assume this specific NPC creature "Deer" is a Doe (Female deer) the first IF and THEN system for the doe is IF being attacked THEN flee, IF doe sees you are in range THEN it will kick at you then attempt to flee, just for a simple example...now take the same creature type and make it a buck (Male deer) with a separate set of IF and THENs. IF being attacked THEN it will charge, IF hit after charge ability THEN it can do a health check, IF health is above X% THEN it will continue charging to kill you. With those examples you can imagine how many IF and THEN scenarios you would have to do per creature/npc type and for each specific variations within those categories if desiring a more robust and varied system. For your example of enemies not trying to out-smart your attacks it would need a HUGEEEEEE list of IF and THEN scenarios to have challenging encounters for a living player...usually "dodging" in most MMOs is a non animated event unfortunately to avoid IF and THEN ability triggers like "Dodge" instead they have mechanics in place to simulate dodging by enemy speed/agility versus your hit rating...its a cop out system imo but I can understand why lol.
As for animations such as casting on the run, I think its more of a game balance thing. If a caster is as mobile as a melee enemy and does similar damage it would make being anything but a caster a hardship....especially for PVP unless the melee had a frequent and reliable gap closer. IMO I think everyone should be able to cast on the run, however doing so should reduce the effectiveness of the cast or shot...like running and firing a rifle, bow, or anything. This would allow for casting on the run and keep things generally in balance depending on how reduced the effectiveness of the shot/cast is...Perhaps a significant chance to miss while firing on the run, or weaker spells since your caster cannot properly channel magic while moving.
About your smart AI attempting to raid cities and stuff like that it be another larger IF and THEN checklist that can probably be done, sorta like GW2 "Dynamic" zones, except yours would be a lot of IF and THEN factors for NPCs to consider.
NPC Lich Spawns into zone at one of many random points and begins moving to the closest graveyard area to trigger resurrection, IF left unopposed THEN zombies are resurrected. Undead group begins moving to closest town, IF left unopposed THEN town and villagers are killed and resurrected to increase size of Lich Army. Lich Army then repeats this as much as it can until it reaches a designated failure point (NPC Army fights lich to quell the threat) or players group to end the Lich Army, or if the game is really ballsy it lets the Lich grow its army to a near unstoppable size that would require the players a significantly long time to kill all of them...basically this little chain just spawned an expansion like Wrath of the Lich King lol.
It would be alot of fun to have insane chain events like that...especially if it can grow unchecked into a game wide threat for players and potentially an ingame historic moment lol. I wonder what tech limitations stop developers from making real dynamic events like that and why the standard is quest hubs with static spawns...maybe it has something to do with the possibility that player saturation in MMOs would make these chains get stomped out in its infancy or perhaps it is purely tech limitations or just because it hasnt really been done before.
GW2 dynamic events are baby steps for chain events, although not totally randomized and not as varied as alot of us had hoped.
We can add in a bit of undead evolution, just imagine that same scenario, but add in more undead creatures and the such that also go against the lich's army, but failed to defend their kind, and raised among the dead as their new allies, i smell more then just helms deep all over, it's basically a fantasy version of resident evil!
We can add in more things into that, it be unique to see a mob vs mob sieging each other over territory then just aiming at pure humans, just imagine seeing that on your scope on the cliff before you start looting the battlefield for free shit.
I personally like AI enemies which are designed on the same concept as the character. Abilities and combat should be similar for the player as well as the AI, you stun them, they stun you, you flank them, they flank you, you heal your ally, they heal their ally.
Of course the AI is always going to be more predictable and less optimized, but a slight increase in general power and number can easily step up the challenge. But fundamentally, they should work the same. If AI is designed to be competently challenging the same way a player is, than you firstly, don't need to come up with an entirely alternate system for AI opponents to utilize, but the gameplay can operate seamlessly from PvE to PvP.
As for the flow of combat, it should not be about face rolling your abilities, it should be about using the right ability at the right time for maximum effect. You should have a lot of offensive and defensive/support options on every character in the game, but not be able to instantly activate or constantly deliver all of them over and over, they should occupy you so if you need to defend or support your unable to throw down your offensive skills simultaneously, your activating, maintaining, or cycling defensive skills in certain situations, or mixing them, or alternating toward offense. Situational need, repeatability, and sustainment can be factored into skills that way they aren't simple easy activate skills which don't require you to make a choice and time their delivery.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
ain't that similar to dark souls in a way?
Unfortunately, they oversimplified the skills and AI when it could have been so much more...
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
You mean like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g
Well, he's not "running" but still, that's pretty amazing.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
First of all i wanna connect on a previous post and say its not OCD when u can willingly stop it. There's a difference between involuntary doing something, and just actually focusing really hard and long, take for instance meditation in buddhism.
If ur'e only OCD-ing for painting, or only OCD-ing once a week, that's not really OCD then, is it ?
Secondly locking in place usually goes by following this route : Engine limitation - programmer intelligence limitation - speeding up production and sacking full movement - animator incompetence - balancing and only after all of this can u even consider that it was really intended like that.
Not to mention programming a complex A.I. and in large quantities without using 99% of the cpu cores, requires mad math skills.
Not to be tangential, but you were referencing art and the tendency to lock oneself away for periods of time dedicated solely to the task.
That's not actually an abnormal thing for popular classical artists to have done, but it actually was OCD behavior. Much to the point, it was detrimental to their health because producing such artwork was a matter of time as much as anything else, and in cases like Georges Seurat it actually did directly contribute to health issues to end his life eventually (the exact cause of death being unknown, but having suffered weak health and multiple symptoms meaning he was in overall poor condition).
People can say they ca willing stop it, but then you're saying they have a cutoff in how decicated they really are. if such is the case, then they likely aren't willing either to isolate themselves completely of forget about worldly needs such as food, which means they don't live up to the standards previously set.
It's the nature of what was mentioned, if the person is electing to forgo 'eat/sleep/take bath' then they are already acting at a detriment to their own well being, and that implies an obsessive-compulsive behavior.
As far as standing in place while casting/shooting, more often than not it's for a simple approach to game balancing. The advantage of being able to do damage at a range gets counterbalanced by forcing the character to root temporarily in order to do so, in order to impede the players ability to try kiting things around nonstop.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin