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Temporary Content and where ANet got it all wrong.

2

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  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by IPolygon
    I still haven't heard a valid reason why living story cannot be incorporated into the persistent world we got.

    Because they made a choice not to?

    You do realize that everything in a game is nothing but a developer choice, and that every single one will lose you a customer?

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,501Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by IPolygon
    I still haven't heard a valid reason why living story cannot be incorporated into the persistent world we got.

    It could be. It isn't.

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,924Member Uncommon
    Why are they? They want more people playing constantly and as such more people paying. Temporary content draws attention, thats why games like WoW make events big to draw in people wanting the 'exclusive' stuff since its limited to the event. Its basically an attempt to grab back people who have the game to play or even draw new ones in. No matter how much you want to claim the game is failing or its a rampant success, in the end their numbers HAVE gone down just like any other game out there. Having those temporary things around just gives a chance to provoke people to play that would otherwise not bother with the game since it IS limited time.
  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon

    Typically, if something is happening in a timeframe that doesn't work for my current situation, then I evaluate how much I want to attend vs how much I value my current situation.   After that I wear my big boy pants and live with my decision.

     

    I think that temporary content is the best solution that could be available for B2P titles.  I think that the temp content should be increased, and there should be more limited time loot rewards. I don't care if a few people can't attend, and I don't overly care if I can't attend.

     

    There are few things in games worth the efforts. A toons name is unique so it's worth the effort to get the one you want.  Loot is only as special as the number of people you see that don't have it but want it.  PvP/tournament rewards are the only other virtual thing that is really worth anything.

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Tierless

    I'd rather have consequences than instances. True open world PVP would be nice too.

    A.Net already stated, NO OPEN WORLD PvP. I don't get that people always bring it up. GW2 was designed NOT to have that option.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Tierless I'd rather have consequences than instances. True open world PVP would be nice too.
    A.Net already stated, NO OPEN WORLD PvP. I don't get that people always bring it up. GW2 was designed NOT to have that option.

    Life lesson here, nothin is forever, especially in MMOs. MMOs are alive, they evolve, they change over time. If Anet saw a market for it, if enough requested it, and if they had a good idea on how to implement it, anything, even something as "crazy" as meaningful pvp is suddenly on the table.

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tierless

     


    Originally posted by botrytis

    Originally posted by Tierless I'd rather have consequences than instances. True open world PVP would be nice too.
    A.Net already stated, NO OPEN WORLD PvP. I don't get that people always bring it up. GW2 was designed NOT to have that option.

     

    Life lesson here, nothin is forever, especially in MMOs. MMOs are alive, they evolve, they change over time. If Anet saw a market for it, if enough requested it, and if they had a good idea on how to implement it, anything, even something as "crazy" as meaningful pvp is suddenly on the table.

    I will support GW2 having open world PvP if Camelot Unchained has a PvE only server. As a matter of fact, I think I better start bringing that up in some CU threads to share my feelings.

     

     

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • SiphaedSiphaed Everywhere!Posts: 877Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by IPolygon
    ANet added a dungeon ~2 weeks ago and just removed it or will in the next couple of hours. How do you feel about ANet's approach on adding something to the game, removing it shortly after forever and then calling it changing a persistent world or in their terms living story?

     

    I know, you cannot have both ever-changing, truly dynamic content and content for all players to be experienced whenever they want to (like a singleplayer game). However I think ANet got it wrong. Most of their content additions are aimed towards exclusivity and exclusive bragging rights. Content like SAB will never return. Flame and Frost will never return. Future content will never return. This is wrong in so many ways I cannot even imagine.

     

    Let's start with SAB. While SAB is separated content it is still content and a nice deviation from the usual content. Players who buy and play the game after SAB is removed will never be able to experience it. You may argue that they missed out and it is their bad luck, that you cannot have everything, etc, but the truth is that

     

    1) a lot of resources is wasted on content that can only be played whenever ANet wants you to,

     

    2) ANet dictates your playing experience by limiting access to content,

     

    3) no real peristent content is added to the game and changes are forced by ANet,

     

    4) ANet misses the point of their own concept of a persistent world,

     

    5) and how do you rate DLC that disappears after a while.

     

     

    Do you think farming exclusive vanity items excuses temporary content like that? Do you think it is ok for ANet to dictate when players should play content x? Do you think it is ok for ANet to take away something you the players have payed indirectly (via gems)? Do you think it is ok to take away anything you have given to players anyway? Do you think calling temporary content that pops-up and then disappears again with no real impact on the world is supporting the game in the right way? Do you think ANet would be better off improving and adding such storylines to their DE system, thus increasing the timer of DEs and having events affect the world for a longer period of time?

     

    I know these questions are suggestive, but I want a discussion. Please say how you feel about all this and how you want ANet to proceed. Obviously, I am not satisfied with ANet at this point and think they handled new content much better in GW1. See War in Kryta etc for reference.

    1) You have no idea what kind of resources are used or how they're allocated within this game.  To assume they're "wasted" is opinionated at best, rude at most.

     

    2) It's their game, they can dictate whatever the hell they choose.  If they want to strip all player controlled characters of gear and turn them into a bunch of squirrels, that's their choice, option, and under full capability to do.  P.S. Their "dictation" can be seen as no different than how WoW used to have dungeon Keys that were basically completely gated content that said "you cannot do X, Y, or Z until you do A, B, and C first".

     

    3) First off, I'll have explained how there are "real persistent changes"  below, such as those of the Lion's Arch light house, the refugee camps, and so on (even how the Lion's Arch fountain was destroyed for 3 and 1/2 months before being added again through periodic construction each patch between that period of time).   I'd also like to point out that 'DUH!' of course changes "forced" through by A.Net in patches. This is an MMORPG, and it's online, and their world.   Basically, you play a character in THEIR WORLD. Enjoy it or not, that's how it is. It's not your world, it's theirs.

     

    4) No, they get their point perfect.  You miss it and don't understand it at all. 

     

    5) I rate DLC, FREE DLC at that, as an enjoyable experience that can be played when it's added.  The DLC that makes large changes to the world when it's there, and leaves little changes to the world after it leaves, is good content.  It's fun, entertainment, and far more value than I'd get out of an $11 movie ticket.

     

     

     

    Yes, it's great that they  can have different content added at different times that players can either play at that time or not. Think they're the first?  Not at all.  WoW does/did the same thing with their in-game events such as the Dark Moon Fair (once monthly in a different faction's specific zone only...if you don't do it when the dev's dictate, too bad, so sad), same goes for a lot of their annual events, in-game dungeon openings, expansion openings, and so on.   The developers make the game, so they dictate how it's played. Don't like it? There's the Exit to Desktop button, don't let the BSOD hit you on the way out.

     

    There's NOTHING that's bought with gems  that is removed/taken away.  Sure consumables are, but that's the nature of consumables.  If you buy the Unlimited Axe, it's yours permanently, same for the mini pets, the dye packs, and so on.   The only thing that they're "taking away" is the removed story content and chances at getting the unique drops related to them.  Nothing bought with $$.

     

    What do you mean about "no real impact on the world"?  The content is making tons of impact on the world for extended periods of time, some small and some big.  The invasion of the Molten Alliance in the two zones lasted 2 months after they revealed themselves; that's a lengthy zone impact.  Oh, and the refugees are pushed out of those zones and now into Lion's Arch's bay area, as well as an encampment in Southsun Cove (one that ties into the Secrets of Southsun).  This is just the PvE story content that is "temporary" anyways, as things like Guild Missions, WvW Ranks, sPvP maps, balances, bug fixes, and more are permanent content additions that do support the game in a huge way.

     

    No. Increased timers for Dynamic Events and hugely increased effects would negatively impact players who level, explore, or traverse the zones.  It's not a wise decision to make.  Dynamic Events are gauged the way they are to tell temporary short stories within the area that they're in, then reset after a time for the next passer-by to experience it.  However, the Living Story chapters can be seen as extended timed one-time-only Dynamic Events that do change the world and can only be done within the time that they're out.  Overall, it's a much more dynamic Dynamic Event than those currently in the game.

     

     

    P.S.  On a more personal note, I'm sick and tired of the I.G. (Instant Gratification) Generation trying to always dictate other people's work by demanding it to be their way or no way.  MMORPG's are living world games that are made by the artists and developers that create them, and experienced by the players that play them.  EXPERIENCED, NOT DICTATED!  If you don't like the way that the game is made,  please do not sit there bitching, moaning, and demanding that they have it your way.....instead go out and find a game that's made to your specific demands and go play that (good luck ever finding one).


  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by eyelolled

    Originally posted by Tierless  

    Originally posted by botrytis

    Originally posted by Tierless I'd rather have consequences than instances. True open world PVP would be nice too.
    A.Net already stated, NO OPEN WORLD PvP. I don't get that people always bring it up. GW2 was designed NOT to have that option.
      Life lesson here, nothin is forever, especially in MMOs. MMOs are alive, they evolve, they change over time. If Anet saw a market for it, if enough requested it, and if they had a good idea on how to implement it, anything, even something as "crazy" as meaningful pvp is suddenly on the table.
    I will support GW2 having open world PvP if Camelot Unchained has a PvE only server. As a matter of fact, I think I better start bringing that up in some CU threads to share my feelings.

     

     


    /sigh I've been on GW2 forums and TES forums and hell, SWTOR forums since the day they were announced. Unlike a lot of CU fans I like GW2 and am even fond of TES, maybe ;)

  • Temporary content is a smart marketing technic, it basically forces users who are on the fence to log on.  If the content was always there they would be less likely to log in to the game.  If they know it is limited they are more likely to log in.  It shows ANet is desperate for people to log in and play.
  • KhinRuniteKhinRunite ManilaPosts: 879Member

    The way ANet does their temporary content is fine, and this coming from a guy who missed Super Adventure Box and The first Living Story Arc.

    I got too busy having a baby since March.

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sharuko
    Temporary content is a smart marketing technic, it basically forces users who are on the fence to log on.  If the content was always there they would be less likely to log in to the game.  If they know it is limited they are more likely to log in.  It shows ANet is desperate for people to log in and play.

    Is this why it's like walking through a ghost town in GW2?  Sure, you have to hang in an overflow because of all the other ghosts, but still...

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,817Member Uncommon

    Clearly Anet is adding limited in time content to cause a urge a players to log in and get involved with the special cash shop items related to the content.

    The problem is that urge can also create something similar to the "I'm paying a sub so i need to play play" factor many of the target crowd of GW2 dislike. It can also make those that miss the content thing there is no point going back since they are just completely out of the loop.

    We will have to see how stuff goes. I think it will depend on each (or a few) of the target populations segments they ultimately decide to go after and not try to go after all.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by laserit

    It all comes down to the old adage "Your damned if you do and your damned if you don't "

    That's engraved over the doorway at Developer College.

    Right under "All Hope Abandon".

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomePosts: 3,540Member Uncommon

    I don't know how it works for other players, but for me temporary content is just annoying. Most of the time I end up simply ignoring it, because I don't like how it creates this rush to complete that content. And that I need to play this weekend or I'll miss it etc. So nowadays I just skip the temporary content in games.

    The only exception to this are holiday themed events. Although in GW2 I started to ignore those too thanks to the stupid player culling in cities.

  • kabitoshinkabitoshin Posts: 758Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by someforumguy

    I don't know how it works for other players, but for me temporary content is just annoying. Most of the time I end up simply ignoring it, because I don't like how it creates this rush to complete that content. And that I need to play this weekend or I'll miss it etc. So nowadays I just skip the temporary content in games.

    The only exception to this are holiday themed events. Although in GW2 I started to ignore those too thanks to the stupid player culling in cities.

    I don't see how you feel rushed the first part of the living story lasted 3 months. Instead of releasing new raid content, they create something in the world for you to do, and limited so that you'll want to do it for cool items.

  • 1vald21vald2 StuttgartPosts: 75Member
    Originally posted by IPolygon
    whoop de doo

    Sorry to disappoint you mate but it seems like you are slowly starting to dislike a game, like I did. After the initial fun you will see the game's faults and then it is for you to decide whether there are enough good things to balance out the things YOU don't like anymore. It happened to me, so I quit GW2. Either you try and ignore (or accept) these things as part of the game or it's time to move on. 

    There are lots of other games to look forward to! :)

    image

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member

    Yeah not really interested in temporary content. Seems like a wasted opportunity. 

    Could have been effort spent on new fractals, dungeons or battlegrounds. I know they are different teams, but the resources could have been better spent.

    I have currently seen all I need to see from GW2. Aside from the odd PvP match, theres really no reason for me to go back and visit, and the Southsun content doesnt really call out to me either.

    I will probably go back if they add a new continent (Cantha or Elona), as the leveling was enjoyable, but it doesnt really have the same appeal at endgame as GW1 had for me. Basically they need a dungeon revamp and more battleground / arena modes.  Also more character customisation. 1 set of skills per weapon is not enough. I was hoping an expansion would have fixed that, but that is apparently on ice.  The new skills in the GW1 expansions kept the game fresh. They need that.

    I think they just focused on all the wrong things. Only thing that has gotten decent love is WvW.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member

    The investor call showed that NCSoft's prediction wasn't met when it came to GW2.

    Previously the GW2 Cash Shop was predicted to provide income to offset the lack of subs and with the constant temporary contents, you'd get players keep on coming back (and hopefully use the Cash shop).

    It was actually a really well thought-out strategy.

    This prediction turned out to be horribly off as GW2's revenue fell through the floor (less than half from before in 3 months).

    It just shows that you need that 'Free' bit to get constant new players into the game so they'd use the CS.

    If you get repeated players due to the '$60 box price', they generally won't use the CS.

    A new player is much more likely to use the CS than a returning player.

    More pressure on ANet to get GW2 Exp out earlier (mid term) and more things in the CS like unique cosmetic items (Short term) seems like reasonable next steps.

     

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,817Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jpnz

    The investor call showed that NCSoft's prediction wasn't met when it came to GW2.

    Previously the GW2 Cash Shop was predicted to provide income to offset the lack of subs and with the constant temporary contents, you'd get players keep on coming back (and hopefully use the Cash shop).

    It was actually a really well thought-out strategy.

    This prediction turned out to be horribly off as GW2's revenue fell through the floor (less than half from before in 3 months).

    It just shows that you need that 'Free' bit to get constant new players into the game so they'd use the CS.

    If you get repeated players due to the '$60 box price', they generally won't use the CS.

    A new player is much more likely to use the CS than a returning player.

    More pressure on ANet to get GW2 Exp out earlier (mid term) and more things in the CS like unique cosmetic items (Short term) seems like reasonable next steps.

     

    How did it show that?

    Where there projections for it?

    The last 3 months had around 2.5 Million boxes in it.

    The game made another $35M and most of it had to come from the CS unless they sold another 500k-1M boxes.

    What they need to add to the cash shop is stuff that players with multiple characters would want and not stuff that caters for the people with a single character.

    And in my personal opinion they really need to get expansions rolling.

     

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomePosts: 3,540Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kabitoshin
    Originally posted by someforumguy

    I don't know how it works for other players, but for me temporary content is just annoying. Most of the time I end up simply ignoring it, because I don't like how it creates this rush to complete that content. And that I need to play this weekend or I'll miss it etc. So nowadays I just skip the temporary content in games.

    The only exception to this are holiday themed events. Although in GW2 I started to ignore those too thanks to the stupid player culling in cities.

    I don't see how you feel rushed the first part of the living story lasted 3 months. Instead of releasing new raid content, they create something in the world for you to do, and limited so that you'll want to do it for cool items.

    Rushed was the wrong translation, it is more about feeling pressured to play. And the limited time and cool items are the reason for that. I don't play games like that. I don't play a game because I might otherwise miss certain cool items. So for my playing style, temporary content is wasted if I don't have the time or if I play temporarily a different game. I rather see them using that dev time for permanent content/features.

    You don't have to agree with this, this is also why I wrote that this is how it works for ME.

  • QSatuQSatu WarsawPosts: 1,735Member Uncommon

    I think they are doing temporary content for 3 main reasons.

    1. to make the world feel alive and changing.

    2. To make people spend more money at cash shop. With each update they put some temporary items in cash shop and people are more willing to buy them if they know they are timed.

    3. It makes the community revisit specific regions of the world so those areas feel busy and full of life. It also makes e.g. a temporary dungeon the main content for some time so it's easy to find party to do it.

     

     

  • fivorothfivoroth LondonPosts: 3,664Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tierless

     


    Originally posted by botrytis

    Originally posted by Tierless I'd rather have consequences than instances. True open world PVP would be nice too.
    A.Net already stated, NO OPEN WORLD PvP. I don't get that people always bring it up. GW2 was designed NOT to have that option.

     

    Life lesson here, nothin is forever, especially in MMOs. MMOs are alive, they evolve, they change over time. If Anet saw a market for it, if enough requested it, and if they had a good idea on how to implement it, anything, even something as "crazy" as meaningful pvp is suddenly on the table.

    Open world  pvp is meaningful to you. I don't find it meaningful. There is a lot less skill required in open world pvp and it not so competitive. For me those things make a pvp experience meaningful and arenanet seem to be on the same page as me.

    I don't agree with this idea of temporary content. What pisses me off is the timescales Arenanet is forcing on us. I mean we had 2-3 months to repair sign posts but only like 10 days to do a dungeon. How does that make sense? What pissed me off even more is the Rallying Flame Achievement. They released it on 12 May and they removed it on the 14th even they SAID it was going to be up till the 16th. Not everyone has the time to check the game daily. I really feel super forced to play the game especially at the moment even though I don't have time. I am not going to play anyway cause I can't but I am pissed off that I am missing out on content. ARenanet told us that they would not force you into certain playstyles but they sure are forcing us to play this new content which lasts for like a week now.

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by IPolygon
    I still haven't heard a valid reason why living story cannot be incorporated into the persistent world we got.

     

    It actually is. Do you see those settlements and changes on SouthSun? Those are permanent. A lot of this will be permanent with some temporary added to it. In addition, this is leading up to something called the Dragon Bash festival which will be an annual holiday type event. Some things come, some things go, some things stay behind. Some stay the same, some are changed forever. That's the concept of their living world.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • MadDemon64MadDemon64 Maplewood, NJPosts: 1,098Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by IPolygon
    I still haven't heard a valid reason why living story cannot be incorporated into the persistent world we got.

     

    It actually is. Do you see those settlements and changes on SouthSun? Those are permanent. A lot of this will be permanent with some temporary added to it. In addition, this is leading up to something called the Dragon Bash festival which will be an annual holiday type event. Some things come, some things go, some things stay behind. Some stay the same, some are changed forever. That's the concept of their living world.

    Exactly.  The damage from the Molten Alliance will persist, but you can't exactly keep fighting them in their dungeon after they are defeated.

    Since when is Tuesday a direction?

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