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We've removed the healer class - What about the tank as well?
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Maybe I missed it, but I was not aware that this discussion was about GW 2. In any case, you are contradicting yourself. One one hand you want me to explain why having more roles in combat is a determining factor, something I did not claim but I do think it is a factor.
However on the other hand you seems to be implying that having many roles, such as what you claim GW 2 has, is not dumbed down.
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GW2 is a point of reference. How many games do you know of that are popular enough to have a discussion about lack of trinity? GW2 is the perfect candidate for such a discussion since it is one of the few games that doesn't have clearly defined roles. Why would we not use GW2 to discuss this? It's also why I use WoW. It is one of the biggest PvE trinity games.
If we use your example for number of roles deciding how "dumbed down" a combat system is, then a game like GW2 is less dumbed down than one with 3 roles because there is no limit to the role combinations you can use and play with effectively. Your logical conclusion started with a faulty premise which was that GW2 has only 2 roles.
I am of the opinion that the PvE experience in GW2 tends to be much more complex than anything I've experienced in WoW. The teamwork and consistency in an average dungeon experience offers more varied playstyles than anything WoW has to offer.
However, I think that the raid encounter design in WoW is pretty damn good. One of the reasons I think this is true is because they can work within the confines of such a limited combat system.
This. I'm still a fan of the trinity. The only time I don't care about the trinity's existence? PVP.
GW2 PvE makes me think of this.
2 words for you,
City of Heroes.
It did it so well its crazy that no developers tried to copy it.
You could have a tank and healer like you could have none of those but have CC, you could have a tank and CC without a healer, you could have a healer and CC without a tank and still be successful, the list goes on.
I'm still ******* mad that they took it down. sigh
Stop being defensive about someone possibly slighting your favorite video game strategies because it has you reading things into people's posts that simply aren't there.
He states that the trinity is superior and it's best just to ignore any game that doesn't have it... and then call me elitist? Is it really elitist to call out the tank role for what it is - a cheap workaround?
You then go into completely confusing support/offense/defense with what we are talking about in this discussion which is the TANK, a character class that exists solely to function within the aggro/threat system. So, instead of wasting your time typing out insults and calling me full of crap, read up a bit on the topic you chose to discuss and understand it a bit better.
You say you're a PnP gamer, so then you're probably aware that tanks did not exist in PnP. Why? Because it's a ridiculous role. In PnP games you have position and distance in a format that simply didn't translate well to MUDs and MMOs, especially with the all too common lack of CD and the introduction of the many new variables introduced as a result of moving to a digital medium.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm with Loktofeit 100%. Tank only exists to manipulate aggro or to exploit under-developed AI. Hence, there are no tanks in PnP games or PvP, where you are playing against a human opponent.
Teamwork and cooperation does not rely on the tank - on any single role. Any game with any amount of specialization and decent balance will have roles people can fulfill. If you doubt this, you need to play more games. The tank is not mandatory - neither is the healer.
I am sad to see so many people engrained in the trinity to realize this.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
The biggest reason for this was a maximum group size of eight. With a group size of 5 your locked into tank, 3 dps, heals.
I have been in many City of Heroes groups seeing groups with multiple tanks or healers or even just support or dps it was awesome grouping in that game. Taking out the trinity, having less classes or choices, no specialization, no player selection, no customization, or limiting or removing things shouldn't be the goal. Not in any game I would want to play anyway.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
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Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I agree. Gw2's example was dreadful. But in LoL it has kind of a holy trinity as well, except that it consists of a dozen subclasses that can fill out the roll as "tank" as well. You can be a full on damage Shen and still be effective. And you can play Annie as a tank and not ruin the game for the whole team.
The more choices we implement, the more complex it becomes and the higher learning curve it requires... except in MMO's! Because you can pick a class and stick to it in MMO's. So instead of like in LoL having to adjust to the team, you would adjust your team after yourself. You'd find mates that would really fit your playstyle instead of mates who just know what button to push at what time. Yet you would be viable with any group in a worse case scenario. The holy trinity should have room to expand into more subclasses in my opinion.
Introducing a "tanky healer" or anything of the sort is just dancing around the issue. Some people are tired of the trinity that is present in nearly every single MMORPG out there. You can have additional roles, and many games do, but the trinity (tank, healer, dps) is always the core of combat dynamics.
As long as players can manipulate or exploit AI behavior, there will be tanks. It is immensely powerful - I would say it is cheating if I didn't know it was the metagame the developers intended. Many think trinity makes combat trivial and formulaic and I am among them.
The whole system is perverse and overused. Some people are so used to it they don't see any alternatives and suffer great discomfort when moved out of the only thing they know. Trinity is safe, simple and easy. It is no wonder why they see other combat systems as "mindless zerg". They want their easy-mode combat.
I suspect the recent outcry against trinity comes from the fact that manipulating aggro seems to be becoming more and more prevalent atleast in MMORPGs, SRPGs and many games with RPG influence.
The trinity affects many things in a game - class, ability, map and encounter design. Many RPGs have weak CC and buffed enemies, which force tactics more towards outlasting your enemy than anything else. Too often, taunt/aggro manipulation is the only truly powerful form of CC.
Ofcourse you don't just take a regular MMORPG with trinity and just remove tanks and healers! You have to build the game around the idea that players will not be manipulating aggro and they cannot rely on healers alone for their defense.
Arenanet tooko a step in the right direction with GW2, although we can debate all night how well they achieved their goals in the end. They didn't include aggro manipulation (which they didn't have in GW1 either), they introduced a lot of CC and they severely reduced healing to promote other methods of defense.
But, no... Sadly some people just don't want to think, adapt and improvise in combat. They just want to do their one thing and expect all will go well; combat for dummies.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Agreed.
And after, also the utility/support classes. Its just not OK to have someone who cannot tank, dps and heal as well as others, just because they focus more on support.
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Your view becomes obnoxious when applied to MMORPGs with modern technology. A tank with a sword in a game with machine guns looks awkward because we know what machine guns can do in real life. It strikes too close to home and it is a prime example to show how perverse the system really is.
It is really not a matter of open or closed system, classes or no classes. TSW had tanks, because mob aggro could be manipulated. I am very disappointed when modern combat gets comformed and simplified to the trinity mold. In recent memory such games include SWTOR and TSW. Not too long a go, Eve Online's poor mob AI allowed people to apply trinity to PvE. Luckily not anymore.
Roles are born out of the game mechanics. In a game where a guy really dies when shot in the face with a shotgun, you will never ever have tanks. Same thing when you take away aggro manipulation. In PnP D&D, ranged healing was extremely rare. As a result healing in combat was reserved for emergencies only, because it made clerics fairly vulnerable.
There are plenty of roles created through game modes too. These include, flag runners, infiltrators, area capturers and area defenders etc. Roles can be created through methods of applying damage or defense. GW1 saw heavy use of not only healing monks, but protection monks (healing being reactive defense and protection proactive defense) alongside many varying supporting roles for defense. Also, there is usually a multitude of ways of applying damage and, lets not forget, varying CC can be used both offensively and defensively.
Thinking through your three axis (ultimately based on the trinity) is limiting yourself. If people are unhappy with the trinity, anything you do to the trinity will merely be a band-aid: be that creating hybrids or "spicing up" any one role within the trinity. If you want to look for solutions, look outside the trinity not within the trinity. There is plenty of inspiration to draw from.
Naturally, there will always be those who will only stick to what they know, but all this "Hurr durr, is combat a mindless zerg without a tank/healer" is just ignorant nonsense. I'm not blaming you for making such comments, but we both know there are plenty of posters even in this thread guilty of this.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
If you ask me the real problem is the flawed aggro mechanic. It’s a system from the old days of mmos, when we had Pentium 1 computers and dial up modems. At its core the whole tank-healer thing is noting but exploiting this old imperfect mechanic. If it would be introduced to today it would most likely be called bug-using.
If you think about it, what exactly is the tank doing to hold aggro? It is never really explained. Is he jumping up and down in front of the dragon, shouting “Hey Dragon, your mother is so fat she can’t even fly…”?
Unless the tank is capable of mind control, I don’t know how this should ever work. A really dump creature like a zombie would just attack the nearest opponent, an animal like a wolf would always attack the one in the group that looks the weakest, not the big intimidating guy, and a human would know even better to go for the guy in robes first.
If you ask me, a tank should rather be something like a bodyguard that can stand next to another group member to protect it.
I think guild wars 2 is rather suffering from having to few tanky classes. Everyone is just a damage dealer, except the guardian.
I think there is nothing wrong with a character that has more protective skills then offensive ones, if he can’t force everyone to attack just him. Also, a tank without a healer is very ineffective. He can absorb damage until his hp go down, and then what?
The healing on the other hand is handled really well in gw2, mostly relying on self heals and aoe heals. As you know, playing a dedicated healer is not much fun and the whole group relies on him.
Let's all try to remember that RPGs were not meant to be balanced in the first place.
Let's all try to remember what RPG stands for: Role Playing Game. This means Roles to play. Strong, weak, fast, slow, productive, destructive, defensive, offensive, passive ROLES to play.
Let's all try to remember why it matters at all to improve one's gear, level, ability/skill, experience -- to be stronger and have an edge.
Let's all try to remember that balanced, equal pvp already exists and comes in the form of other types of games, such as FPS, RTS, Fighting, Racing, Puzzles, etc.
MMORPGs are not supposed to be a medium in which all players involved are equal and balanced, because there is an entire world to take into account. Multiple goals and objectives in which one class/role's strength is beneficial, while not as beneficial in other situations. This is flavor, and this is what separates the genre and drew in the intrigued in the first place.
And it changed. Players don't want to be second best.
Just look at all the DPS balancing hoopla in WOW. If DPS is not within 1%, people are QQing about the end of their spec.
I have to totally disagree with Loktofeit once again....
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/286958/page/1
there is a reason the tank role exist. It's a form of mob control. Otherwise the PvE would have to be designed around zergs and red circles.
Also trinity has nothing to do with Dumb AI like people believe. The trinity also exist in PvP as well. Ever play Rift's PvP as a level 50 in vanilla Rift? Warrior class, aka the tanks were intimidating and tough as nails in PvP. They easily draw attention of enemy, especially if healers and buffers are doing their role and keeping the Tank up and strong. Trinity right there. In PvP, I consider Melee classes as the tank, and ranged damage dealers as DPS, and healers as healers. Melee tend to draw players attention, like healers also do. Ranged DPS seem to be the last on the hate/threat list of enemy players. Same concept as PvE in vanilla WoW.
tanks and healers held top threat/hate in PvE in vanilla WoW, just how PvP trinity in Rift was.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
In a good trinity, no role is more important then another. If the tank doesn't tank, everyone dies. If the healer doesn't heal, everyone dies. If the dps doesn't kill things fast enough, it taxes the healer who now can't heal the tank.. everyone dies. You are always gonna have shitty selfish players, trinity or no. I'm sure plenty of em ruin groups in Gw2 same as a trinity game.
I really don't get people saying that Tanks have no role in PvP. If they are properly implemented they serve the same purpose as they do in PvE - soaking up damage and keeping other players alive longer.
Another reason I like games like TOR where there is a Guard ability.. Or any game with an ability that lets me as a Tank, with a shit ton of HP absorb damage to other classes to keep them alive. This forces players to target you as a tank, as you make it harder to kill the healers, casters, etc. It's all the better if taunt abilities work in PvP also as it would disrupt targeting and give you even more purpose.
I tire of the argument of "We need to remove a role or two because it make filling a group hard.". Stop whining.
Think a pro-sports team spend more time recruiting say a quarterback, pitcher, goalie, or any other "skilled" position? I do. Think watching sports played by "all one role" would suck? Most likely. If you remove the skill positions and replace them with a "one size fits all" role, it is obvious the quality of play will diminish.
I have said it many times before, and will likely say it many times again. If you don't like something, don't do it. In this example, if you don't like the trinity mechanic, find a game without it, there are plenty.
If for whatever reason you like game X that has the trinity, learn to deal with it. Stop asking all the players that do like it to change their play style to yours.
That's playing a defensive role in combat which, as I already explained to you, is where you are confusing the various roles in a combat scenario with the tank's role in aggro/threat game mechanics. Here's a good article by Richard Bartle that gives you the history of the trinity and where this ridiculous combat role (tank) originated: http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html
Again, getting defensive and tossing out insults isn't really conducive to discussion or to your understanding of game mechanics in question. Dial it back a bit.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Iam still confused at what your issue with the tanking role is than.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
We are playing video games, not pro sports. Pays me millions playing video games, and you can spend as much time recruiting as you like.