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Temporary Content and where ANet got it all wrong.

IPolygonIPolygon ViennaPosts: 707Member Uncommon
ANet added a dungeon ~2 weeks ago and just removed it or will in the next couple of hours. How do you feel about ANet's approach on adding something to the game, removing it shortly after forever and then calling it changing a persistent world or in their terms living story?

I know, you cannot have both ever-changing, truly dynamic content and content for all players to be experienced whenever they want to (like a singleplayer game). However I think ANet got it wrong. Most of their content additions are aimed towards exclusivity and exclusive bragging rights. Content like SAB will never return. Flame and Frost will never return. Future content will never return. This is wrong in so many ways I cannot even imagine.

Let's start with SAB. While SAB is separated content it is still content and a nice deviation from the usual content. Players who buy and play the game after SAB is removed will never be able to experience it. You may argue that they missed out and it is their bad luck, that you cannot have everything, etc, but the truth is that

1) a lot of resources is wasted on content that can only be played whenever ANet wants you to,

2) ANet dictates your playing experience by limiting access to content,

3) no real peristent content is added to the game and changes are forced by ANet,

4) ANet misses the point of their own concept of a persistent world,

5) and how do you rate DLC that disappears after a while.

Let me explain why I think so. ANet created the great concept of dynamic events. DEs by nature and by design should change persistent content temporarily. Ofc, DEs repeat aswell as their stories. Do you think living story could not be implemented as repeating DEs and why do you think so? It's not like centaurs are beaten after the 1000th raid on their HQ. Why would you think the Molten Alliance would. Or don't you think king Adelberns ghost or any of his followers are exhausted after conceding the x-th defeat.

A lot of GW2's content could by temporary content, but it is not, because you would need an army of designers to fill the world with unique content players may speed through. Even ANet themselves said, it would be impossible to put out so much content in so little time. Yet they follow this approach.

Do you think farming exclusive vanity items excuses temporary content like that? Do you think it is ok for ANet to dictate when players should play content x? Do you think it is ok for ANet to take away something you the players have payed indirectly (via gems)? Do you think it is ok to take away anything you have given to players anyway? Do you think calling temporary content that pops-up and then disappears again with no real impact on the world is supporting the game in the right way? Do you think ANet would be better off improving and adding such storylines to their DE system, thus increasing the timer of DEs and having events affect the world for a longer period of time?

I know these questions are suggestive, but I want a discussion. Please say how you feel about all this and how you want ANet to proceed. Obviously, I am not satisfied with ANet at this point and think they handled new content much better in GW1. See War in Kryta etc for reference.
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Comments

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Except Anet did not create the idea nor even the idea of temporary or dynamic content. UO and EQ were doing it long before with gm support, and WoW was doing it with events like the AQ gate opening and Naxx undead events.
  • AyulinAyulin Mt marion, NYPosts: 334Member
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Except Anet did not create the idea nor even the idea of temporary or dynamic content. UO and EQ were doing it long before with gm support, and WoW was doing it with events like the AQ gate opening and Naxx undead events.

    Not really the same thing, though.

    An 'Event' based around existing content is one thing. Adding a new dungeon (entirely new content) and then removing it is on a whole other level.

    And anyway, one could just as well argue that GM Events and the WoW events weren't good ideas either. Although GM Events can take place on an on-going basis, and AQ and other such places in WoW became persistent once they were opened. Blizzard never said "Okay! Time to evolve our "living world" by taking away these dungeons!"

    And anyway, arguing who did it first is missing the point.

     

  • OmaliOmali MMO Business Correspondent Orchard Park, NYPosts: 1,114Member Uncommon

    Small correction: Super Adventure Box is coming back. 

    Check out my monthly column on MMORPG.com.

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  • ScalplessScalpless SnowballvillePosts: 1,396Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by IPolygon
    However I think ANet got it wrong. Most of their content additions are aimed towards exclusivity and exclusive bragging rights. Content like SAB will never return. Flame and Frost will never return. Future content will never return. This is wrong in so many ways I cannot even imagine.

    And this is where you're wrong. ANet said they'll release an improved version of SAB, if SAB is received well enough. They also said the Molten dungeon could return in one way or another. It could be a Fractal or they could release an Explorable version of it.

  • AyulinAyulin Mt marion, NYPosts: 334Member
    Originally posted by Scalpless
    Originally posted by IPolygon
    However I think ANet got it wrong. Most of their content additions are aimed towards exclusivity and exclusive bragging rights. Content like SAB will never return. Flame and Frost will never return. Future content will never return. This is wrong in so many ways I cannot even imagine.

    And this is where you're wrong. ANet said they'll release an improved version of SAB, if SAB is received well enough. They also said the Molten dungeon could return in one way or another. It could be a Fractal or they could release an Explorable version of it.

    So, they'd add and then remove these dungeons to provide the illusion of a "changing, dynamic world"... only to bring them back again permanently?

    That makes even less sense than removing them in the first place.

    Just put them in and leave them there lol. More content is more content. Some will enjoy it. Some won't.

    Unless it's something they do to keep their hardware/server costs down.

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon

    The phrase 'you can't have your cake & eat it too' comes to mind.

    Is it a mistake to remove certain content from the game? Possibly. However, you can't have a world that has meaningful change, without giving up something in return. Anet has always said they were planning to have both permanent & temporary changes being added to the world. So far they have stayed true to that ideal. Fractals are still in, but the living story is temporary.

    I think it's a good thing for them to make content people seem to be really enjoying, but making it available for a limited time. It is a good method of keeping people coming back. If there is a mistake they are making, though, it's that currently they only have these temporary changes to look forward to. They've been asked about an expansion and they don't sound like they've even started on one.

    Basically, I think Anet will need to put in larger, more significant improvements / additions to the game in addition to these temporary ones. I don't know if they have the resources to do this, though. However, the pumping out content on a monthly basis is a very good start, and not something every studio is capable of. If they could also surprise us with larger, more meaningful change every 3-4months, that would go a long way towards keeping people hooked.

    - Honestly, even in GW1 did they have a lot of really cool, temporary content. The fact that people enjoyed it enough to want it to stay is actually a good thing. Taking them out adds incentive to login and participate, as well as builds good memories of the content before burnout is allowed to sink in.

  • ScalplessScalpless SnowballvillePosts: 1,396Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ayulin
    Originally posted by Scalpless
    Originally posted by IPolygon
    However I think ANet got it wrong. Most of their content additions are aimed towards exclusivity and exclusive bragging rights. Content like SAB will never return. Flame and Frost will never return. Future content will never return. This is wrong in so many ways I cannot even imagine.

    And this is where you're wrong. ANet said they'll release an improved version of SAB, if SAB is received well enough. They also said the Molten dungeon could return in one way or another. It could be a Fractal or they could release an Explorable version of it.

    So, they'd add and then remove these dungeons to provide the illusion of a "changing, dynamic world"... only to bring them back again permanently?

    SAB will be altered before its return. The Molten Facility may return, but it'll be different both as an exp mode dungeon and as a Fractal. Also, the dungeons were obviously not the only Living Story-related content, so... I don't see your point.

  • GroovyFlowerGroovyFlower RdamPosts: 1,245Member
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Except Anet did not create the idea nor even the idea of temporary or dynamic content. UO and EQ were doing it long before with gm support, and WoW was doing it with events like the AQ gate opening and Naxx undead events.

    Lol wtf has that have to do with OPs topic this discussion is not about who was first with these ideas it was about is it ok what arenanet is doing with these temp events that many prolly miss out  on and never will experience.

    Why people always try hyjack topics with nonsens beating endlessly same  dead horses discussions already discussed a million times before is beyond me.

    Go back to UO(i serieously doub you have played it or even started in 97) if thats your holy grail mmo.

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Ayulin

    Not really the same thing, though.

    An 'Event' based around existing content is one thing. Adding a new dungeon (entirely new content) and then removing it is on a whole other level.


    How do you figure exactly? That content is now gone either way. The scourge event was actually pretty close to Rift events in themselves. Whether a dungeon is involved is pretty meaningless.

    And anyway, one could just as well argue that GM Events and the WoW events weren't good ideas either. Although GM Events can take place on an on-going basis, and AQ and other such places in WoW became persistent once they were opened. Blizzard never said "Okay! Time to evolve our "living world" by taking away these dungeons!"

    So? How is it any different from the numerous holiday events from games like Rift where some of them have repeated and others have not? Why was it not a big deal for previous games but its a big deal for Gw2? I for one like the idea of limited events, it gives me a reason to log in because if I do not then I miss out on whatever they have brought.

    And anyway, arguing who did it first is missing the point.

    If it weren't important then why did you include it as part of the great tirade against why these things are TERRIBLE!!!

     

    Originally posted by GroovyFlower

    Lol wtf has that have to do with OPs topic this discussion is not about who was first with these ideas it was about is it ok what arenanet is doing with these temp events that many prolly miss out  on and never will experience.

    Why people always try hyjack topics with nonsens beating endlessly same  dead horses discussions already discussed a million times before is beyond me.

    Go back to UO(i serieously doub you have played it or even started in 97) if thats your holy grail mmo.

    Did you even read the op? He flatly stated that Anet created the idea of dynamic content. Its the start of the third paragraph if you don't have the attention span to read that far.

     

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon ParisPosts: 2,076Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GroovyFlower
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Except Anet did not create the idea nor even the idea of temporary or dynamic content. UO and EQ were doing it long before with gm support, and WoW was doing it with events like the AQ gate opening and Naxx undead events.

    Lol wtf has that have to do with OPs topic this discussion is not about who was first with these ideas it was about is it ok what arenanet is doing with these temp events that many prolly miss out  on and never will experience.

    Why people always try hyjack topics with nonsens beating endlessly same  dead horses discussions already discussed a million times before is beyond me.

    Go back to UO(i serieously doub you have played it or even started in 97) if thats your holy grail mmo.

    Half right but perhaps the OP shouldn't make such stupid claims, why even mention who he thinks was the first to do DE's. 

    Works both ways.

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  • jadan2000jadan2000 roosevelt, NYPosts: 511Member
    For Anet, this was always the intent, to change things around alot in the game. i welcome it, where one dungeon leaves, you know another will pop up. I dont have an issue with it.

    image

  • IPolygonIPolygon ViennaPosts: 707Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SavageHorizon

    Originally posted by GroovyFlower
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Except Anet did not create the idea nor even the idea of temporary or dynamic content. UO and EQ were doing it long before with gm support, and WoW was doing it with events like the AQ gate opening and Naxx undead events.

    Lol wtf has that have to do with OPs topic this discussion is not about who was first with these ideas it was about is it ok what arenanet is doing with these temp events that many prolly miss out  on and never will experience.

    Why people always try hyjack topics with nonsens beating endlessly same  dead horses discussions already discussed a million times before is beyond me.

    Go back to UO(i serieously doub you have played it or even started in 97) if thats your holy grail mmo.

    Half right but perhaps the OP shouldn't make such stupid claims, why even mention who he thinks was the first to do DE's. 

    Works both ways.

     

    Who came up with it first is not the point. I argue that the game could be improved and needs improvement and content that is not temporary content, which may return at some point and in some form.

    @Scalpless: Are you fine with ANet telling you when you may play content?

    To me, all these timed exclusives sound like baiting. Like they know they cannot sustain a playerbase with the existing content alone, but feel like they need to draw players in with such content. Holiday events and such are awesome and it is right to make them appear and disappear, but does expansive content need that kind of treatment too? When I am asked about the latest additions to GW2, I can only tell how they added a couple of maps to sPvP, Fractals and Southsun. That and the claims of an expansion worth of content in the timeframe of 8 months doesn't sound good. Other competitors have done a far better job at adding content.
  • ScalplessScalpless SnowballvillePosts: 1,396Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by IPolygon
    @Scalpless: Are you fine with ANet telling you when you may play content?

    I'm fine with GW2 being an entertaining game that gets new content for free now and then. I understand temporary content encourages people to log in, but so what?

    It's just not a big deal IMO.

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by IPolygon
    @Scalpless: Are you fine with ANet telling you when you may play content?

     

    To me, all these timed exclusives sound like baiting. Like they know they cannot sustain a playerbase with the existing content alone, but feel like they need to draw players in with such content. Holiday events and such are awesome and it is right to make them appear and disappear, but does expansive content need that kind of treatment too? When I am asked about the latest additions to GW2, I can only tell how they added a couple of maps to sPvP, Fractals and Southsun. That and the claims of an expansion worth of content in the timeframe of 8 months doesn't sound good. Other competitors have done a far better job at adding content.

    You would have a point if you had purchased the content and it was not a service.

  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCPosts: 1,949Member Uncommon

    It all comes down to the old adage "Your damned if you do and your damned if you don't "

     

    Whether you like the game or not is irrelevant. I personally like the fact that Anet is trying to mix things up.  

    "If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be someone to ride you." - Bruce Lee

  • pmilespmiles Federal Way, WAPosts: 383Member

    Temporary content just means that you have limited opportunity to do it... it won't become stale because you can't do it to death... you won't be able to memorize the place and faceroll your way around it on your alts of alts of alts.  I like the notion that some things are not permanent... that you have a limited opportunity to see it... that if you wish to experience it, you'd better do it now or risk never doing it at all.

     

    I got to see Mt. St. Helens blow... once in a lifetime thing... doesn't make it any less spectacular and becomes a great story for the grand kids.  If the thing blew every day, it wouldn't be that spectacular... would be so been there done that.

     

    ANet is doing it right.

     

     

  • pantheronpantheron calhoun, GAPosts: 170Member
    I prefer these  kind of events. people don't try to "farm" them on a large scale (at least most people didn't that I saw) and you just get to do them, have fun, and do something different. I know i scrambled during the last few days to get my full Flame and Frost achievement thing so i could get the gauntlet, but that was fun, ive never had to do that to get anything in a game. Its new for some of us, and its enough new to keep us playing. 

    I play MMOs for the Forum PVP

  • Soki123Soki123 Kelowna, BCPosts: 1,480Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Omali

    Small correction: Super Adventure Box is coming back. 

    Oh great, how exciting.

  • LeiloniLeiloni None of your beeswax, ALPosts: 432Member Uncommon
    It's not fun to miss out on content so I think this idea of temporary content is ridiculous. I wasn't home during the Halloween events so I missed out on a lot of cool stuff and that was the first time that happened to me and I realized this was a regular thing for them. That was the beginning of the end for me with GW2. The game has other issues already with the combat and class/role system that are not as fun as other games but it had other stuff to make up for that that kept it fun. But losing out on cool, fun content is not fun to me. I don't want to miss something because life dictated I had to be elsewhere. I'm ok with Joe No Lifer completing that content first and getting all sorts of cool rewards, but at least leave it in the game world so I can do it later. There's no need for exclusivity in a game like this. At least in traditional MMO's the exclusivity came from permanent content you could someday work for yourself. But here, you never get a chance to play the fun stuff you missed. In what world is that enjoyable? This is not real life, this is a game and should be fun.
  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

    I'd rather have consequences than instances. True open world PVP would be nice too.

  • RizelStarRizelStar Raleigh, NCPosts: 2,773Member

    Ugh, they got it right, just not right for you Ipolygon. They also got it wrong for the other people where the game design, game updates, and/or etc is not made for you guys.

    So, y'all just got to accept that, and it's ok everything will be fine, other MMOs are already out there and you got MMOs comming out in the future.

    A-Net is doing their temporary content just fine, it's free, it's fun(not all of it), they getting better and better rather than worse and worse, they going up, not down.

    So yea, and if you want you can volunteer to rewrite the lore so it'll make sense to keep the temporary content, since we already  ignoring fractals these days and how some of the temp content can end up there but eh well.

    I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

    I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

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  • VorchVorch Somewhere, FLPosts: 800Member

    They said that Flame and Frost would be returning in some form or another in the future (guessing a fractal or some sort of replayable dungeon)

     

    Super Adventure Box will also be returning (I want a hammer!).

     

    With every update that has added something temporary, something permanent has been added as well. During Flame and Frost, we got Laurels, Guild Missions, Spectator Mode, WvW ranks, and more (spectator mode!). While I would like small permanent reminders of these events, they can not be permanent AND dynamic without phasing which only serves to split the player base.

    "As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days— those are now the only two states you’ll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2

  • DaezAsterDaezAster new york, NYPosts: 803Member
    Originally posted by RizelStar

    Ugh, they got it right, just not right for you Ipolygon. They also got it wrong for the other people where the game design, game updates, and/or etc is not made for you guys.

    So, y'all just got to accept that, and it's ok everything will be fine, other MMOs are already out there and you got MMOs comming out in the future.

    A-Net is doing their temporary content just fine, it's free, it's fun(not all of it), they getting better and better rather than worse and worse, they going up, not down.

    So yea, and if you want you can volunteer to rewrite the lore so it'll make sense to keep the temporary content, since we already  ignoring fractals these days and how some of the temp content can end up there but eh well.

    Have to agree with rizel, They have been learning from and improving on these content updates steadily. It's supposed to be an event and if you miss the party friday night they don't throw you one on sunday, you just miss it. I missed the halloween one and when I see people with those skins it's cool that I can't get them now and they are some what special. If they were always available, wouldn't be so special. It's actually pretty smart if you think about , since the content won't be there for ever you don't  want to miss the party....

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Leiloni
    It's not fun to miss out on content so I think this idea of temporary content is ridiculous. I wasn't home during the Halloween events so I missed out on a lot of cool stuff and that was the first time that happened to me and I realized this was a regular thing for them. That was the beginning of the end for me with GW2. The game has other issues already with the combat and class/role system that are not as fun as other games but it had other stuff to make up for that that kept it fun. But losing out on cool, fun content is not fun to me. I don't want to miss something because life dictated I had to be elsewhere. I'm ok with Joe No Lifer completing that content first and getting all sorts of cool rewards, but at least leave it in the game world so I can do it later. There's no need for exclusivity in a game like this. At least in traditional MMO's the exclusivity came from permanent content you could someday work for yourself. But here, you never get a chance to play the fun stuff you missed. In what world is that enjoyable? This is not real life, this is a game and should be fun.

    People want a 'living, changing world'. That means that much should be temporary.  People then complain because the world is static and then when A.Net does put in temporary content, they get damned like above. You CAN'T have it all - it is one or the other.

     

    As another poster said, damned if you do or damned if you don't.

    image

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  • IPolygonIPolygon ViennaPosts: 707Member Uncommon
    I still haven't heard a valid reason why living story cannot be incorporated into the persistent world we got.
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