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We've removed the healer class - What about the tank as well?

TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYPosts: 911Member Uncommon

Since MMOs have removed the healer class. Why not the tank as well? A group is FORCED to have a tank, without a tank you can't do anything. Granted, a healer is beneficial...but not nearly required as a tank role is.

 

Now, I'm sure there are some that like tanking...like wise...there are some that like healing. But, a tank is just too required in a MMO. Plus, tanks are so rare to find....even rarer than healers usually are. This makes finding groups much harder.

 

Removing the tank would speed up the group gathering process, remove the forceful need of certain classes in a group and this benefits getting into a group quick and easy. Now, could just remove both tank and healer...this way, no class is forceful needed. Then everyone has a role to play in a group, and you don't wait 30 minutes to over an hour (in the lesser populated MMOs) to wait for a certain class that almost no one plays.

 

MMOs should just keep the most populated roles. That being damage and support. These two roles are the most common (so much easier to find a group if that is all there is). This would also help balance, and make PvP far better as well.

 

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Comments

  • Damage99Damage99 Upstate, NYPosts: 173Member Uncommon

    Better yet all MMO's should just have 1 class that everyone plays and is exactly the same that way you dont need to depend on anyone else in the MULTIPLAYER world.

     

    Great plan.

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Because Gw2 pve sucks balls. Those roles need to be filled one way or another.
  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYPosts: 911Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Damage99

    Better yet all MMO's should just have 1 class that everyone plays and is exactly the same that way you dont need to depend on anyone else in the MULTIPLAYER world.

     

    Great plan.

    I agree with you. This would be the perfect compromise in terms of balance. This would make PvP far better, and no one would worry about one class being overpowered by 1 dps or underpowered by 1 dps.

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  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,667Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    Since MMOs have removed the healer class. Why not the tank as well? A group is FORCED to have a tank, without a tank you can't do anything. Granted, a healer is beneficial...but not nearly required as a tank role is.

    The tank is a byproduct of trying to fix a broken system poorly ported from a different platform. It is, by far, the stupidest role ever introduced to online RPGs. A group is "FORCED" to have a tank only in MMOs with the aggro/threat hack job as part of the combat mechanics. Remove that nonsense and you can easily remove the tank.

    I know there are a lot here that never played AC, EVE or UO and simply can't conceive of organized combat without a tank. Until they get out of the EQ/WOW mindset, there's nothing that can be done for them. vOv

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Champaign, ILPosts: 1,552Member Uncommon
    Down with the trinity.  More dungeons for rogues!

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,738Member Uncommon

    Generally I find games with weak specialization options ("no healers") to have weaker grouping. Instead of an interesting reliance on teamwork, everyone basically does the same thing.  The skill rotations and playstyles can still be relatively fun, sure, but a game definitely misses out on a fun component.

    Specialization doesn't have to specifically be "healers".  Puzzle Pirates' roles are things like Sailing, Rigging, Carpentry, and Bilging.  But while these tasks play entirely different from a typical MMORPG, they still vaguely map to each major role of mitigation (tanking/CC), recovery (healing), or offense (DPS).  I'm not sure you can think of a combat mechanic which doesn't map to one of those concepts (even things like Diplomacy are basically just mitigation: you're avoiding a potential conflict.)

    Specialization also doesn't have to be static.  For example in Left4Dead if you pick up a medkit you can heal others; if a teammate goes down, you become a rezzer; if you're out in front, you become a tank.  It changed based on the conditions around you.  And while that's interesting, it doesn't really replace longer-term specialization.  (And while L4D was a fantastic game overall, some long-term specialization options would've made it even more interesting and further enhanced group play if done right.)

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • asrlohzasrlohz UddevallaPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
    Originally posted by Damage99

    Better yet all MMO's should just have 1 class that everyone plays and is exactly the same that way you dont need to depend on anyone else in the MULTIPLAYER world.

     

    Great plan.

    I agree with you. This would be the perfect compromise in terms of balance. This would make PvP far better, and no one would worry about one class being overpowered by 1 dps or underpowered by 1 dps.

    ...I don't think he was being serious, mate.

     

    Also, there is something called "Perfect Imbalance" (or Imperfect Balance). For example, look at league of legends and you'll notice that sometimes one extremely OP champion is released. And there is no argument against it. The champion is just over the top OP. At this moment people are forced to switch tactics against this opponent by playing champions that before were really unpopular but turned out to have a great kit against this new OP threat. This is what makes it all so intriguing.

     

    Much like in MMO's how spellcasters hit really heavy and might have great CC and escape mechanisms, a well placed rogue could take that threat out of the picture because the spellcaster was not ready for that. However that wouldn't work too well against a tank in most cases.

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  • DogblasterDogblaster PraguePosts: 491Member

    I am not playing ANY mmorg that has no trinity ... again.

     

    trinity is way to superior, fun and best just to ignore it ... everyone dps? everyone self healer? nah thank you. rpgs were always about roles

  • ThreshThresh Waterloo, ONPosts: 52Member
    GW2 has done away with the trinity. Look at its group PvE combat - pisspoor at best. Bunch of people chaotically rolling around to avoid damage.
  • BahamutKaiserBahamutKaiser Hyattsville, MDPosts: 306Member

    Tanks and Healers don't need to be removed to have a good game, if you want it to work in PvP and in rich PvE, you just do the same thing MOBAs do, make them deeper than just tanking or just healing, and allow non support oriented options to explore those roles partially as well.

    Honestly, I think Guild Wars the original had it closest to right, their biggest flaw was putting all of the necessary support on the healer (monk), even the Ritualist turned out to be a secondary besides because their attempt to make an unorthodox healer ended up being unfocus.  But it was in the right direction. There was no real tank, as really there shouldn't, in PvP and interesting PvE play where the foes don't line up to fight you 1 at a time vs your stacked party, there should be more MOBA style defenders, they either specialize in initiating so the foe has to engage him first and than try to pass him later in order to get easier targets, and defenders who aren't as sturdy as initiators, but have solid defense sharing features that are supplied by a physical unit rather than the typical protection mage.

    From there you can allow mage classes to provide offense and defense in different flavors, characters like the elementist had locational enhancers, while monks should have had a focus on healing without a monopoly on protection magic, and Ritualist offered totem defense which should have provided more protection assets from an alternate mage.

    Team diversity does not have to be eliminated in order to make party play more approachable, it just needs to become more universal so everyone has their offensive and defensive options, any variation of ally classes should produce diversified defense which helps the party survive, in this way, classes can still operate uniquely, and diversity can still enhance a parties capability without pinning all the support features onto one or two classes.

    The classic tank role is actually more of a problem than the old healer, having allies who can heal is perfectly fine, in fact pretty much every magically inclined class should have variations of heal and restoration or defense, not as a total focus of their role, but as a tactic available to them, but the traditional tank can be completely removed, all combat oriented units should have fair defense and damage mitigation.  Initiators should have intense defense as front line breakers and engagers, but not lack any damage, while others have more offensive tactics like projectile warfare, higher mobility, and a final combat class needs to replace the old tanks as the defensive unit which, likely with the use of shields, produce the protection effects for the team which mitigate damage and deflect foes so priority soft targets are not open game.

    Tactics is the name of true gameplay and competition, because playing a rich and detailed world should not be about what your character does, or simply building them up, but rather, it should be about using the right abilities for the right situation, having a lot of options and picking the ones that are more efficient at the moment.

    The solution exist to overcome the stale old tank and spank gameplay that makes many MMOs mundane, yet produce a new variety of even deeper and widespread support and cooperation so all roles are functionally useful offensively and defensively, yet still remain unique and interesting.  The solution starts with eliminating aggression control.

    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
    That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  • asrlohzasrlohz UddevallaPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by Dogblaster

    I am not playing ANY mmorg that has no trinity anymore ... again.

     

    trinity is way to superior, fun and best just to ignore it ... everyone dps? everyone self healer? everyone tank? nah thank you

    It could work in the future. Better AI could really solve a ton of problems.

     

    I think that the secret is to make it easier to manipulate. That players can create their own trinity within a trinity-absent game by having armours define their class rather than "Tank, DPS, Healer". I'd love to say that TESO might be able to do that but they won't. It requires the devs to create armour sets that are so vastly different that half of the armours would be useless to 80% of the playerbase. This is just not feasible at this time. So for now, you are correct. The trinity is superior from a technical standpoint.

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  • pantheronpantheron calhoun, GAPosts: 170Member
    I actually think that the healer should have stayed, and the tank left. rather than giving everyone self heals, everyone would have to work together and pass aggro around while the healer kept up the heals that sounds much more like what might actually occur in a world, since when is a monster ever going to just beat on one guy yelling at him while a bunch of dudes in the back are pounding him with magic anyway?

    I play MMOs for the Forum PVP

  • adis5005adis5005 GoleniPosts: 46Member
    Remove tanking? Hell no, it's the only role I enjoy playing.
  • zipzapzipzap HelsinkiPosts: 123Member
    Originally posted by asrlohz
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
    Originally posted by Damage99

    Better yet all MMO's should just have 1 class that everyone plays and is exactly the same that way you dont need to depend on anyone else in the MULTIPLAYER world.

     

    Great plan.

    I agree with you. This would be the perfect compromise in terms of balance. This would make PvP far better, and no one would worry about one class being overpowered by 1 dps or underpowered by 1 dps.

    ...I don't think he was being serious, mate.

     

    Also, there is something called "Perfect Imbalance" (or Imperfect Balance). For example, look at league of legends and you'll notice that sometimes one extremely OP champion is released. And there is no argument against it. The champion is just over the top OP. At this moment people are forced to switch tactics against this opponent by playing champions that before were really unpopular but turned out to have a great kit against this new OP threat. This is what makes it all so intriguing.

     

    Much like in MMO's how spellcasters hit really heavy and might have great CC and escape mechanisms, a well placed rogue could take that threat out of the picture because the spellcaster was not ready for that. However that wouldn't work too well against a tank in most cases.

    this might work in LoL and other MOBAs but doesnt really work in MMOs and PvE/PvP...

    how often do you see nowadays pvp tanks in MMOs?

    the biggest problem with trinity is the pve aspect and the pvp aspect... they dont mix

  • asrlohzasrlohz UddevallaPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by zipzap
    Originally posted by asrlohz
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
    Originally posted by Damage99

    Better yet all MMO's should just have 1 class that everyone plays and is exactly the same that way you dont need to depend on anyone else in the MULTIPLAYER world.

     

    Great plan.

    I agree with you. This would be the perfect compromise in terms of balance. This would make PvP far better, and no one would worry about one class being overpowered by 1 dps or underpowered by 1 dps.

    ...I don't think he was being serious, mate.

     

    Also, there is something called "Perfect Imbalance" (or Imperfect Balance). For example, look at league of legends and you'll notice that sometimes one extremely OP champion is released. And there is no argument against it. The champion is just over the top OP. At this moment people are forced to switch tactics against this opponent by playing champions that before were really unpopular but turned out to have a great kit against this new OP threat. This is what makes it all so intriguing.

     

    Much like in MMO's how spellcasters hit really heavy and might have great CC and escape mechanisms, a well placed rogue could take that threat out of the picture because the spellcaster was not ready for that. However that wouldn't work too well against a tank in most cases.

    this might work in LoL and other MOBAs but doesnt really work in MMOs and PvE/PvP...

    how often do you see nowadays pvp tanks in MMOs?

    the biggest problem with trinity is the pve aspect and the pvp aspect... they dont mix

    That's the point. PvE isn't nearly as important to balance out as PvP except in Dungeons. There is no reason to why three rogues wouldn't be more useful in certain dungeons than the regular trinity by making the Bosses just have massive precentage of HP attacks and armor penetration rather than just pure damage. It would make everything much more dynamic.

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  • simsalabim77simsalabim77 Somewhere, CAPosts: 627Member Uncommon
    I'd rather they add to the trinity rather than take away from it. 
  • BattlerockBattlerock Youngstown, OHPosts: 1,393Member
    Group play without dedicated roles in a pve environment is terrible. Thats the very reason I dislike GW2 pve. I cant stand the mass gathering of disorder. It's fine for 5 year old kids. But the order that at least a trinity brings is critical to gameplay and making the games feel rewarding. There is alot changing in games.



    I think things like not using tab targeting, dodge mechanic, and getting rid of roles is helping pc mmorpgs move toward being more console friendly. Thats unfortunate because as much as I love consoles, I dont want my mmorpgs dumbed down anymore and dumming down mmorpgs is what has been happening now for years.
  • asrlohzasrlohz UddevallaPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by simsalabim77
    I'd rather they add to the trinity rather than take away from it. 

    This, I agree with. Making things more complex only adds to the things possible for the cunning gamer. Even if it sometimes break the game temporarily.

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  • udonudon Durham, NCPosts: 1,767Member Uncommon

    Without tanks and healers encounters are nothing more than DPS free for alls where the most challenging strategy you can realistically expect is nothing more than stay out of the red spots on the ground and more dps always wins.

    That kind of thinking is probably one the biggest reasons I have not played a MMO released in the last 5 years for more than 3 months continuously.   The more I learn about ESO the more doubtful I am it will be any different and the more I learn about Wildstar the more interested in that game I become although they have been pretty quite on the trinity aspect of that game.  Guess we shall see how both go as those are the only two games I'm even remotely interested in any long term prospect releasing this year.  Marvel hero's should be fun diversion for a month or so at most.

  • theAsnatheAsna AsnatownPosts: 321Member


    "... MMOs should just keep the most populated roles. That being damage and support. ..."


    What exactly are Tank and Healer roles? They support the party with different abilities / skills. The first role exerts some kind of CC (i.e. binds opponents and prevents them from attacking other party members). Other classes may offer better and more versatile forms of CC (i.e. that works both in PvP and PvE). Since the tank is supposed to be more durable but not invincible he/she needs some healing. That's where the second role comes into play which will take care of the tank and with a lesser priority the other party members.


    Removing these two roles from MMOs won't change much in PvP. Most of the tank's special abilities work on NPCs but not so well on human players. Healers are usually the target of focus fire if the enemy team plays smart. Tanks and Healers work best in PvP when their teams support them likewise. But that requires more than just the "Fast Food PvP" that you see especially in themepark MMOs.


    Regarding PvE things look different. A lot depends on the exact game mechanics. Some MMOs allow players to run through NPCs and other Players. Under such conditions removing aggro mechanics and the trinity is not going to work smoothly. If a game doesn't allow players to run through opponents then things might work better due to blocking techniques (in combination with narrow passages) being now a valid option.

     

    The bottom line is that it's easier to build a new game with certain game mechanics in mind than changing existing games in such a radical way.

  • DogblasterDogblaster PraguePosts: 491Member
    Originally posted by Thresh
    GW2 has done away with the trinity. Look at its group PvE combat - pisspoor at best. Bunch of people chaotically rolling around to avoid damage.

    maan :) +1 .. couldnt say it better

     

    Dps is boring and dungeon with bunch of dps rolling all over the place, jumping into the wall and trying to outdace boss with it is something i dont want to be part of ...

    I get it, you are just angry that there are more important role than your dps .. but man, get over it

  • OziiusOziius Baltimore, MDPosts: 1,388Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    Since MMOs have removed the healer class. Why not the tank as well? A group is FORCED to have a tank, without a tank you can't do anything. Granted, a healer is beneficial...but not nearly required as a tank role is. Now, I'm sure there are some that like tanking...like wise...there are some that like healing. But, a tank is just too required in a MMO. Plus, tanks are so rare to find....even rarer than healers usually are. This makes finding groups much harder. Removing the tank would speed up the group gathering process, remove the forceful need of certain classes in a group and this benefits getting into a group quick and easy. Now, could just remove both tank and healer...this way, no class is forceful needed. Then everyone has a role to play in a group, and you don't wait 30 minutes to over an hour (in the lesser populated MMOs) to wait for a certain class that almost no one plays. MMOs should just keep the most populated roles. That being damage and support. These two roles are the most common (so much easier to find a group if that is all there is). This would also help balance, and make PvP far better as well. 

     

    The mmo I play has healing and tanks. Thanks
  • OziiusOziius Baltimore, MDPosts: 1,388Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dogblaster

    Originally posted by Thresh
    GW2 has done away with the trinity. Look at its group PvE combat - pisspoor at best. Bunch of people chaotically rolling around to avoid damage.

    maan :) +1 .. couldnt say it better

     

    I feel the exact same way about gw2 lol
  • asrlohzasrlohz UddevallaPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by Dogblaster
    Originally posted by Thresh
    GW2 has done away with the trinity. Look at its group PvE combat - pisspoor at best. Bunch of people chaotically rolling around to avoid damage.

    maan :) +1 .. couldnt say it better

     

    Dps is boring and dungeon with bunch of dps rolling all over the place, jumping into the wall and trying to outdace boss with it is something i dont want to be part of ...

    I get it, you are just angry that there are more important role than your dps .. but man, get over it

    In case you were trying to reply to me, no. It was an example. I would love to see dungeons where the optimal party would consist of squishy mages that had to melt a weapon encased in ice with firespells or heavy tanks having to outlast a golem trying to escape from certain death.

     

    I believe that you are the angry one. The one whom cannot fanthom innovation. You are the lowest common denominator which is trying to grasp onto something that is clearly flawed. I never claimed that the Trinity is bad. But it isn't good either. It should exist but it should not limit the game to a dungeon party to two DPS, one tank and one healer as the most optimal party.

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  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,667Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dogblaster

    I am not playing ANY mmorg that has no trinity ... again.

     

    trinity is way to superior, fun and best just to ignore it ... everyone dps? everyone self healer? nah thank you. rpgs were always about roles

    If a person never tried PvP at all and never experienced PvE outside of EQ/WOW mechanics, I can easily see them thinking the way you do.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

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