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Developers have fooled us over the definition of "Pay-to-Win"

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  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,867Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by thinktank001WOW and EVE offer a free 14 days and GW2 offers free weekends so that makes them both F2P, or did I also misunderstand this statement again? 

    Yes, you did.

    Trial accounts aren't part of the payment model, it isn't how the game is supposed to receive money or generate income.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,674Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Cod_Eye
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

     

    So am I wrong?  What is the definition of "Pay-to-Win"?

    The ability to buy items that gives an advantage with real money.

    This.  The definition of p2w hasn't changed.

    The definition of advantage is what keeps changing. 

    Verily thou didst nail it.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member
    Originally posted by seanfitzs
     

    It is only p2w when you can buy items that are more powerfull and cannot be obtained any other way.

    What if the only way to obtain the item is to play 10,000 hours.  "or" you can spend 1000$ to buy it.

    That is the reality with those asian f2p games right?  Sure if I play 15 hours a day everyday I can keep up.  But in reality how many people can do that?

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Originally posted by seanfitzs
     

    It is only p2w when you can buy items that are more powerfull and cannot be obtained any other way.

    What if the only way to obtain the item is to play 10,000 hours.  "or" you can spend 1000$ to buy it.

    That is the reality with those asian f2p games right?  Sure if I play 15 hours a day everyday I can keep up.  But in reality how many people can do that?

     While I think there is a point of reasonable time requirements beyond which the drop rate is just not comparable i.e. buying god sword in cs or .0001% drop rate is IMO stupid and I'll call that p2w)

    the first question to ask is:

    "Do you care about keeping up?'  I certainly don't. 

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by thinktank001
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by thinktank001

     

    If a player pays, then the game is not free. 


     

    That's not how it works.

    Point made by poster above...


    You misunderstand the term. F2P means that payment model does not require any charges upfront, unlike P2P or B2P where you need to pay before accessing the service.

     

    If someone makes a purchase from a cash shop is it still free?   How is it that a game can be called F2P, but by most "data" collection reports, 10% of the people don't play the game at zero cost?  

     

    I just ask these question because there seems to be a double standard applied to mmorpgs.   It is a simple fact, that a person's friend can take them out to eat at a restaurant, and they would never call that restaurant " free to eat ".    Yet, here we are 221 posts later and players still continue to call some MMORPGs " free to play ".  

     

     

    Yeah, if you want to get technical they should be called 'Microtransaction based MMOs', but Free to Play sounds better to the masses.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by evilastro

    Yeah, if you want to get technical they should be called 'Microtransaction based MMOs', but Free to Play sounds better to the masses.

    Especially since it's accurate, the majority of people never pay a penny in these games.  They are free to play.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile
     Too many ppl worried about what others are doing in pve. If being first is how you win in pve...you are all losers every time you play. Maybe you should focus on better goals....like figuring out how to have fun instead of being a bunch of old ladies watching the neighbors.

    ^^^This^^^

    That's exactly the point.  There are so many people out there swinging their e-peens around in PvE games, acting like they have to compete with everyone they meet.  There is a simple solution to all of this, people need to stop being hyper-competitive pricks.  You can have a good time playing a game without ever being concerned in the least about what anyone else is doing, what anyone else has, etc.  Just play for *YOU*.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,645Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by Vesavius
     
    I don't see what has you confused in all honesty. It seems simple to me... Yes, character development is a measure of how well you are doing in a MMORPG. You buy any part of that from a cash shop and you are, in my eyes, paying to 'win'.

    You cannot see that MMORPGs are a series of micro 'wins'?

    And, no, it's nothing like your example here at all.

    Except they are not, atleast not on the game level. One can say "I am done" or that they "won a match" or "world first" but none of those are "winning" the game. The game does not end until they shut off the servers, and even then there is no winning or losing, merely the resolution of the conflict. Having the best gear in the game is not the end or even really the point of the game. Nor is being the most skilled, or completing the most content, or playing the game the longest.

     

    I will repeat the part where I point out to you that a MMORPG is a series of micro 'wins' and leave it at that.

    If you don't understand where I am coming from when I say that then... Well, nevermind.

     

     

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    I will repeat the part where I point out to you that a MMORPG is a series of micro 'wins' and leave it at that.

    If you don't understand where I am coming from when I say that then... Well, nevermind.

    Even if your definition is a series of completed limited goals, its still not "winning" in any traditional sense because those goals are so different for people. Specifically the goals of or set by the development team. If your limited goal is "get the best gear" and the developers goal is to "have fun with other people" its quite right for them to dump your goal for theirs as they quite obviously did not make the game for you.

  • witchhammerwitchhammer brunswickPosts: 7Member

    It can be only P2W if there is a competition.

    If there is no competition there can be no "win"

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,645Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by witchhammer

    It can be only P2W if there is a competition.

    If there is no competition there can be no "win"

     

    Define 'competition'?

    Do you count the guy that you are rolling for a loot drop against after running a dungeon, as an example, as competition?

     

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Originally posted by seanfitzs
     

    It is only p2w when you can buy items that are more powerfull and cannot be obtained any other way.

    What if the only way to obtain the item is to play 10,000 hours.  "or" you can spend 1000$ to buy it.

    That is the reality with those asian f2p games right?  Sure if I play 15 hours a day everyday I can keep up.  But in reality how many people can do that?

     While I think there is a point of reasonable time requirements beyond which the drop rate is just not comparable i.e. buying god sword in cs or .0001% drop rate is IMO stupid and I'll call that p2w)

    the first question to ask is:

    "Do you care about keeping up?'  I certainly don't. 

     

    My point s if you actually played those asian f2p games, they give you the chance to buy "everything" with in game gold.  It just takes an "absurb" amount of time if you don't use real cash.

    I mean I can try playing atlantica online now and get the best gear in the game, it'll just take me say... maybe 20,000 hours playtime to obtain it.  "Or" I can just use real cash so I can catch up.  I would call that pay 2 win even though everything can be obtained in game without spending real cash. 

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Originally posted by seanfitzs
     

    It is only p2w when you can buy items that are more powerfull and cannot be obtained any other way.

    What if the only way to obtain the item is to play 10,000 hours.  "or" you can spend 1000$ to buy it.

    That is the reality with those asian f2p games right?  Sure if I play 15 hours a day everyday I can keep up.  But in reality how many people can do that?

     While I think there is a point of reasonable time requirements beyond which the drop rate is just not comparable i.e. buying god sword in cs or .0001% drop rate is IMO stupid and I'll call that p2w)

    the first question to ask is:

    "Do you care about keeping up?'  I certainly don't. 

     

    My point s if you actually played those asian f2p games, they give you the chance to buy "everything" with in game gold.  It just takes an "absurb" amount of time if you don't use real cash.

    I mean I can try playing atlantica online now and get the best gear in the game, it'll just take me say... maybe 20,000 hours playtime to obtain it.  "Or" I can just use real cash so I can catch up.  I would call that pay 2 win even though everything can be obtained in game without spending real cash. 

    And picking the worse grind game in the F2P repertoire is like me pointing out that back in ye oldy days on Everquest 1 it would take 6-12 months of hard gaming to even hit level cap.

    image
  • delete5230delete5230 Posts: 2,964Member Uncommon

    I don't get fooled.

    I just don't play games with cash shops, or at least any game that has anything to do with paying for equipment. Other than GW2 because its a reputable B2P, I don't play around with them.

    Just because mmos are going in that direction, I don't par-take in that crap !!

    Years ago, I would play around with free to play games knowing full well I would only play for a few days. Now I don't even bother.

     

     

     

    I will NEVER give a cash shop a dime.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    There is a simple solution to all of this, people need to stop being hyper-competitive pricks. 

    You consider that solution "simple"?

    Consumer-driven society, obsessed by status symbols since (at least) the 50s, trying to keep up with the Joneses? Gamer culture, obsessed with Trophies (even well before Blizzard)? Playing MMOs (where Trophies are used, over and over and over by game after game, as Carrots to sell subs)?

    World Peace is a "simple" solution, too, I guess.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,674Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by witchhammer

    It can be only P2W if there is a competition.

    If there is no competition there can be no "win"

     

    Define 'competition'?

    Do you count the guy that you are rolling for a loot drop against after running a dungeon, as an example, as competition?

     

    Can you link to the MMO where you can buy a better loot roll?  If not, then that's irrelevant to his statement.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by delete5230

    I don't get fooled.

    I just don't play games with cash shops, or at least any game that has anything to do with paying for equipment. Other than GW2 because its a reputable B2P, I don't play around with them.

    Just because mmos are going in that direction, I don't par-take in that crap !!

    Years ago, I would play around with free to play games knowing full well I would only play for a few days. Now I don't even bother.

    I will NEVER give a cash shop a dime.

    Wait wait wait, its all shit unless Gw2 says its ok, and then only for them because they are reputable? How much of the koolaid did you drink?

  • blondehblondeh CoventryPosts: 540Member

    Buying things in game has been the norm since MMOS became popular. 

    Game accounts with Jedi status and other in game items which took time to achieve were sold on eBay. My old Jedi account was worth about $800 at one point. 

     

    Game developers just decided to sell items instead. Theres a market for it. Why would they want  all that money going to someone else when they can make a dollar or two from things they designed and created.

    image

  • LexinLexin Ellenville, NYPosts: 702Member Uncommon

    That's like buying an exp potion from a store you gain less grind and same could be said about gear if you can obtain in game. Pay 2 win is buying something from the store that's not in game and gives an advantage.

    And with that both should be frowned upon equally.

    image

  • AyulinAyulin Mt marion, NYPosts: 334Member
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    To me the definition of "Pay-to-Win" has always been something in an MMO that let you gain an in-game advantage.  In almost all F2P/B2P MMOs you can get some of the best gear in the game with real life money, usually by converting real life money to game currency and buying epics.  For example, I can gear my character in GW2 or Neverwinter in full "epics" with real life money.

    I keep hearing players and developers now say that if you can get this gear in game with game currency, it isn't "Pay-to-Win".  When did this become the definition become the norm?

    If I can get the best gear in the game with real life money, and I can get it with in-game currency.  It is still "Pay-to-Win".  Because usually you can buy in-game currency with real life money.

    Star Citizen and Chris Roberts recently took this approach.  In Star Citizen you can buy all the ships with real life money.  When people said it was "Pay-to-Win", RSI said it isn't "Pay-to-Win" because you can buy the ships in game.

    So am I wrong?  What is the definition of "Pay-to-Win"?

    I think you're right. IF you can buy power in the game, it's "pay to win". Chris Roberts and co. are just spinning the situation to try and enforce their own convenient definition of it.

    Here's an important question...

    You can get the ships with in-game money, but how long will it take to obtain the money required to buy one? How much grinding (of any kind) would a player have to do to earn the funds necessary to purchase something that another person with the RL cash on-hand can buy "right now"?

    Here's another question. How many other money sinks will the game have that will make saving the money necessary even more time consuming?

    Therein lies the catch. It's the "game of technicalities" that all Cash-Shop MMOs are marketed around. However, the devil is in the details. The truth is hidden between the lines.

    Cash Shops thrive on the predictability of human behavior. People's love of convenience is one of the things Cash Shops focus on. Impatience is another. Peer pressure also factors in. The need to "have it now". F2P/Cash Shop developers are aware of this, and it's what they rely on to bring in the $$$ by setting up the game and the cash shop to exploit it as much as they can get away with it.

    And that's the catch.

    Because you can obtain the items in-game, the developers get to say "well, you don't have to buy them with real money. You can earn them in-game! So see? It's not pay-to-win!". But that's completely disingenuous.

    Why?

    Because they will have made the process of earning enough to buy that ship in-game as tedious and slow as they can get away with (without outright pissing people off and turning them away). They will do this so that people who "need to have it now" will say "screw that", and pull out their wallets. This is especially so when they start seeing all their friends and other players with those same ships; the peer pressure element. Anyone who's played MMOs for long enough will know that jealousy and the desire to have what others have are strong motivators. The people developing these games know that as well.

    So, while they're saying "you can get them in-game!", and are being technically truthful about the setup (again, a game of technicalities), they're not being honest about their intentions. They're doing as much as they can to make sure you won't earn it in-game and will instead buy it from the cash shop.

    They do not want "you" playing their game for free, and they'll do as much as they can get away with to convert you into a paying player, all while reminding you as much as they can that it's "all optional!".

    It's like sitting a smoker in a room with other smokers. In the middle of the table they're sitting at is a small case selling individual cigarettes. They're told "we'll give you a cigarette for free if you sit here for 6 hours, or you can optionally buy one any time you want for $3.00". That's the kind of "choice" a cash shop MMO offers. They know there's an increasingly good chance that, as time goes on, the chance of you pulling out your wallet to buy that cigarette is going to increase. And that's exactly what they want you to do. However, they still get to say "oh, but they're optional!".

    They're technically telling the truth, but being very dishonest about it.

    F2P/Cash Shop MMOs are not made that way "for the players' benefit". They like to paint themselves as "the good guys" by saying "look how much we give you for free!". The reality is, they're trying to keep you playing as long as they can, while gradually making things as inconvenient or slow as they can, in hopes that you'll ultimately break down and start spending. And they know that, for some, once they decide to start spending, it's like opening a floodgate; your so-called 'whales'.

     

     

     

     

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Ayulin

    They're technically telling the truth, but being very dishonest about it.

    F2P/Cash Shop MMOs are not made that way "for the players' benefit". They like to paint themselves as "the good guys" by saying "look how much we give you for free!". The reality is, they're trying to keep you playing as long as they can, while gradually making things as inconvenient or slow as they can, in hopes that you'll ultimately break down and start spending. And they know that, for some, once they decide to start spending, it's like opening a floodgate; your so-called 'whales'.

     

     

     

     

     

    You can't be "dishonest" in telling the truth. Either they are telling the truth (honest), or not.

    And they are good guys .. they did give me a large part of their game for free. And i didn't tell them i plan to leave before the inconvenience kills the fun, did i?

  • thinktank001thinktank001 oasisPosts: 2,027Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by witchhammer

    It can be only P2W if there is a competition.

    If there is no competition there can be no "win"

     Define 'competition'?

    Do you count the guy that you are rolling for a loot drop against after running a dungeon, as an example, as competition? 

     

    I think this is where a lot of the confusion comes in to play. 

     

    Is an advantage simply having a greater rate than another player, or is it strictly a situation of one player having a direct advantage over another?  

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by thinktank001

    Is an advantage simply having a greater rate than another player, or is it strictly a situation of one player having a direct advantage over another?  

    Depends on if you care about others progressing faster.

    Personally i don't but i can see someone who does.

  • KareliaKarelia HeraklionPosts: 668Member
    Originally posted by Kazuhiro
    Your correct, you have the only "real" definition of Pay-2-Win. Sadly a lot of quite frankly stupid/ignorant people today seem to have a messed up definition of it. Pay-2-Win is simply ANY situation where you can spend real world money to obtain an item/upgrade/etc in a game that gives an advantage, period, regardless of the item being available in the game or not. Since you are paying real money, to obtain an item, that allows you to win situations easier. Hence Pay-2-Win. Cosmetic items are the only thing a game that can sell realistically that isn't pay-2-win. (And some other rare exceptions, like server transfers/name changes/character slots/etc.)

     

    this

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Manolios
    Originally posted by Kazuhiro
    Your correct, you have the only "real" definition of Pay-2-Win. Sadly a lot of quite frankly stupid/ignorant people today seem to have a messed up definition of it. Pay-2-Win is simply ANY situation where you can spend real world money to obtain an item/upgrade/etc in a game that gives an advantage, period, regardless of the item being available in the game or not. Since you are paying real money, to obtain an item, that allows you to win situations easier. Hence Pay-2-Win. Cosmetic items are the only thing a game that can sell realistically that isn't pay-2-win. (And some other rare exceptions, like server transfers/name changes/character slots/etc.)

     

    this

     The key there, and source of confusion, is "advantage"

    What constitues an advantage and in what situations.

    Are xp boosts and advantage?  Someone may get to max level faster than me with them, but they may get to max level faster than me anyway.   So is that an advantage?  To me no.

    To me an advantage is being able to do something I can't at any particular level.  If you can kill something faster than I can because of something you bought in a game and is not available to me without using the CS (in a reasonable, i know subjective, time frame) thats an advantage.

    Once you are past my level, it's a moot point. 

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

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