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Developers have fooled us over the definition of "Pay-to-Win"

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Comments

  • SoMuchMassSoMuchMass New York, NYPosts: 548Member
    Originally posted by apanz3r
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Originally posted by apanz3r

    All this moaning about pay to win is from kids that want PWN new players or from Chinese farmers that can't farm anymore and people who hacked accounts to sell gold etc.

    Only legitimate cases of pay to win complain  are IF there are some uber weapon/armor that are couple of times better than regular stuff that can be obtained through game play.

    More assumptions, again which are false.  Also, no one here is a law maker and can tell others what is "legitimate" or what isn't.  It looks like each person has their own personal definition of what pay-to-win is.

    LOL

    Dude , you don;t like the game don;t play it. I did this. There are hundreds of MMO. There is no point to throw shit in developers.

    Nobody forces you to play game x or game y.

    I don't play it.  I am talking about a concept.  Stop making assumptions please, so far you are 0 for 3.

  • BeelzebobbieBeelzebobbie MalmöPosts: 429Member

    Well by these standards every mmo inte the world is p2w, I bought gold in Wow and full epic after that. How is this different then a cash shop, except its a thrid party that gets the cash. 

    All games that don't have a cash shop you can always buy from a third party who will sell you gold or gear.

     

  • SoMuchMassSoMuchMass New York, NYPosts: 548Member
    Originally posted by Beelzebobbie

    Well by these standards every mmo inte the world is p2w, I bought gold in Wow and full epic after that. How is this different then a cash shop, except its a thrid party that gets the cash. 

    All games that don't have a cash shop you can always buy from a third party who will sell you gold or gear.

     

    I am surprised this took so long to come up, but in WoW BoE gear is 2+ tiers below the best gear in the game.

  • apanz3rapanz3r BucurestiPosts: 259Member
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Originally posted by Beelzebobbie

    Well by these standards every mmo inte the world is p2w, I bought gold in Wow and full epic after that. How is this different then a cash shop, except its a thrid party that gets the cash. 

    All games that don't have a cash shop you can always buy from a third party who will sell you gold or gear.

     

    I am surprised this took so long to come up, but in WoW BoE gear is 2+ tiers below the best gear in the game.

    I bought a character (actually just the leveling and the farming, took a while)  with the  max tier gear. Please comment on this.

  • BeelzebobbieBeelzebobbie MalmöPosts: 429Member
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Originally posted by Beelzebobbie

    Well by these standards every mmo inte the world is p2w, I bought gold in Wow and full epic after that. How is this different then a cash shop, except its a thrid party that gets the cash. 

    All games that don't have a cash shop you can always buy from a third party who will sell you gold or gear.

     

    I am surprised this took so long to come up, but in WoW BoE gear is 2+ tiers below the best gear in the game.

    Ok you might be right there, I am a little rusty on wow cause it was a few years since I played it so I stand corrected. 

  • BeelzebobbieBeelzebobbie MalmöPosts: 429Member
    Originally posted by apanz3r
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Originally posted by Beelzebobbie

    Well by these standards every mmo inte the world is p2w, I bought gold in Wow and full epic after that. How is this different then a cash shop, except its a thrid party that gets the cash. 

    All games that don't have a cash shop you can always buy from a third party who will sell you gold or gear.

     

    I am surprised this took so long to come up, but in WoW BoE gear is 2+ tiers below the best gear in the game.

    I bought a character (actually just the leveling and the farming, took a while)  with the  max tier gear. Please comment on this.

    :) So were back to every game being p2w. 

  • SoMuchMassSoMuchMass New York, NYPosts: 548Member
    Originally posted by apanz3r
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Originally posted by Beelzebobbie

    Well by these standards every mmo inte the world is p2w, I bought gold in Wow and full epic after that. How is this different then a cash shop, except its a thrid party that gets the cash. 

    All games that don't have a cash shop you can always buy from a third party who will sell you gold or gear.

     

    I am surprised this took so long to come up, but in WoW BoE gear is 2+ tiers below the best gear in the game.

    I bought a character (actually just the leveling and the farming, took a while)  with the  max tier gear. Please comment on this.

    There is a huge difference between official developer support and third party support.  If third party sites sell bots, it wouldn't be ok for developers to sell bots under the guise of "oh you can buy it from third party anyway".

  • dancingstardancingstar LeedsPosts: 346Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Originally posted by apanz3r

    All this moaning about pay to win is from kids that want PWN new players or from Chinese farmers that can't farm anymore and people who hacked accounts to sell gold etc.

    Only legitimate cases of pay to win complain  are IF there are some uber weapon/armor that are couple of times better than regular stuff that can be obtained through game play.

    More assumptions, again which are false.  Also, no one here is a law maker and can tell others what is "legitimate" or what isn't.  It looks like each person has their own personal definition of what pay-to-win is.

    (emphasis added)

    Bingo.

    "Pay-to-win" is not a precise term, it's a snarl-phrase: an expression with an ill-defined meaning used to express disapproval. Discourse on this site is full of them.

  • apanz3rapanz3r BucurestiPosts: 259Member
    Originally posted by Beelzebobbie
    Originally posted by apanz3r
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Originally posted by Beelzebobbie

    Well by these standards every mmo inte the world is p2w, I bought gold in Wow and full epic after that. How is this different then a cash shop, except its a thrid party that gets the cash. 

    All games that don't have a cash shop you can always buy from a third party who will sell you gold or gear.

     

    I am surprised this took so long to come up, but in WoW BoE gear is 2+ tiers below the best gear in the game.

    I bought a character (actually just the leveling and the farming, took a while)  with the  max tier gear. Please comment on this.

    :) So were back to every game being p2w. 

    Yes, with enough money, and the right connection every game can be p2w.

    Life is not fair.

  • ShamorauShamorau melbournePosts: 173Member Uncommon
    for me its rather simple, if its not cosmetic, then its p2w. you buy potions, scrolls, stones, weapons, whatever to increase the stats of your character from a cash shop with real money then its p2w.
  • apanz3rapanz3r BucurestiPosts: 259Member
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Originally posted by apanz3r
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Originally posted by Beelzebobbie

    Well by these standards every mmo inte the world is p2w, I bought gold in Wow and full epic after that. How is this different then a cash shop, except its a thrid party that gets the cash. 

    All games that don't have a cash shop you can always buy from a third party who will sell you gold or gear.

     

    I am surprised this took so long to come up, but in WoW BoE gear is 2+ tiers below the best gear in the game.

    I bought a character (actually just the leveling and the farming, took a while)  with the  max tier gear. Please comment on this.

    There is a huge difference between official developer support and third party support.  If third party sites sell bots, it wouldn't be ok for developers to sell bots under the guise of "oh you can buy it from third party anyway".


    Yes is huge, i rather have the developer having the money than a 3rd party.

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by Beelzebobbie

    Well by these standards every mmo inte the world is p2w, I bought gold in Wow and full epic after that. How is this different then a cash shop, except its a thrid party that gets the cash. 

    All games that don't have a cash shop you can always buy from a third party who will sell you gold or gear.

     

    Tell us your username and we can have your account deleted.

    You can get money in RL by robbing a pensioner instead of working, it's quicker and easier but against the rules.

  • apanz3rapanz3r BucurestiPosts: 259Member
    Originally posted by Shamorau
    for me its rather simple, if its not cosmetic, then its p2w. you buy potions, scrolls, stones, weapons, whatever to increase the stats of your character from a cash shop with real money then its p2w.

    Fair enough.

    What are you going to do about it ?

    a) are you going to quit

    b) are you going to keep playing

     

     

  • apanz3rapanz3r BucurestiPosts: 259Member
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    Originally posted by Beelzebobbie

    Well by these standards every mmo inte the world is p2w, I bought gold in Wow and full epic after that. How is this different then a cash shop, except its a thrid party that gets the cash. 

    All games that don't have a cash shop you can always buy from a third party who will sell you gold or gear.

     

    Tell us your username and we can have your account deleted.

    You can get money in RL by robbing a pensioner instead of working, it's quicker and easier but against the rules.

    Power leveling is in worst case against the eula, not against the law.

    robbing a pensioner is against the law.

    If you can't make the difference maybe you spend to much time in games.

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAPosts: 5,211Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by apanz3r
    Originally posted by Beelzebobbie
    Originally posted by apanz3r
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Originally posted by Beelzebobbie

    Well by these standards every mmo inte the world is p2w, I bought gold in Wow and full epic after that. How is this different then a cash shop, except its a thrid party that gets the cash. 

    All games that don't have a cash shop you can always buy from a third party who will sell you gold or gear.

     

    I am surprised this took so long to come up, but in WoW BoE gear is 2+ tiers below the best gear in the game.

    I bought a character (actually just the leveling and the farming, took a while)  with the  max tier gear. Please comment on this.

    :) So were back to every game being p2w. 

    Yes, with enough money, and the right connection every game can be p2w.

    Life is not fair.

    Gaming is not life. Gaming should be a fair as possible within reason.

    "Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  • apanz3rapanz3r BucurestiPosts: 259Member
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    Originally posted by apanz3r
    Originally posted by Beelzebobbie
    Originally posted by apanz3r
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Originally posted by Beelzebobbie

    Well by these standards every mmo inte the world is p2w, I bought gold in Wow and full epic after that. How is this different then a cash shop, except its a thrid party that gets the cash. 

    All games that don't have a cash shop you can always buy from a third party who will sell you gold or gear.

     

    I am surprised this took so long to come up, but in WoW BoE gear is 2+ tiers below the best gear in the game.

    I bought a character (actually just the leveling and the farming, took a while)  with the  max tier gear. Please comment on this.

    :) So were back to every game being p2w. 

    Yes, with enough money, and the right connection every game can be p2w.

    Life is not fair.

    Gaming is not life. Gaming should be a fair as possible within reason.

    Games are part of life.

    The main reason to buy gear in wow was to keep up with friends which have been raiding higher content. I could not spend as much time as them to keep up with gear.

  • BeelzebobbieBeelzebobbie MalmöPosts: 429Member
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    Originally posted by Beelzebobbie

    Well by these standards every mmo inte the world is p2w, I bought gold in Wow and full epic after that. How is this different then a cash shop, except its a thrid party that gets the cash. 

    All games that don't have a cash shop you can always buy from a third party who will sell you gold or gear.

     

    Tell us your username and we can have your account deleted.

    You can get money in RL by robbing a pensioner instead of working, it's quicker and easier but against the rules.

    As I said, I have not played wow for a long time. I don't even remember my acount name. Last time I logged in my acount was hacked so kind of a poetic justice over that one. 

    But don't get me wrong I am not saying its ok to buy gold or an acount for real money I am just saying that there is an option to do it and that makes it p2w.

    Wow was to easy, thats why I quit. :) 

     

  • apanz3rapanz3r BucurestiPosts: 259Member
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Originally posted by apanz3r
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Originally posted by apanz3r
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    To me the definition of "Pay-to-Win" has always been something in an MMO that let you gain an in-game advantage.  In almost all F2P/B2P MMOs you can get some of the best gear in the game with real life money, usually by converting real life money to game currency and buying epics.  For example, I can gear my character in GW2 or Neverwinter in full "epics" with real life money.

    I keep hearing players and developers now say that if you can get this gear in game with game currency, it isn't "Pay-to-Win".  When did this become the definition become the norm?

    If I can get the best gear in the game with real life money, and I can get it with in-game currency.  It is still "Pay-to-Win".  Because usually you can buy in-game currency with real life money.

    Star Citizen and Chris Roberts recently took this approach.  In Star Citizen you can buy all the ships with real life money.  When people said it was "Pay-to-Win", RSI said it isn't "Pay-to-Win" because you can buy the ships in game.

    So am I wrong?  What is the definition of "Pay-to-Win"?

    You feel entitled of  playing AAA games without paying anything ?

    Why don;t YOU make a free MMO which is not pay to win and is not subscription based instead of moaning?

    Bellow is everything you need to make you game and make it free for all no cash shop no subscription.

    Only thing you will need is to pay for servers at some point but maybe you convince a datacenter to gave you some for free in exchange for publicity.

     

    game  engine: http://unity3d.com/

    3d modeling: http://www.blender.org/

    free textures: http://cgtextures.com/

     

    No, I stick to subscription games.  I played Neverwinter and paid $60 for the Founder's pack. You assumed a lot there, everything being false.  As LoL and Path of Exile proved you can be successful with cosmetic items.

    Same thing apply, you don;t like the current trend-  make your own game. Everything is available for free. Work hard for 2-3 years and then make it free to play and then see how some dude start to comment that he does not like something.

    I don't make games for a living.  If I don't like something I give feedback, that is how the world works. Again, comments like this add nothing to the discussion.

    I am not making a living also from game development. However because there are some aspects that i don;t like in current mmos i decided to give it a shot at making a game in my free time. Probably i will never finish the game but at least i understand a little bit how complex is to make one including the money process.

     

  • SoMuchMassSoMuchMass New York, NYPosts: 548Member
    Originally posted by apanz3r
     

    I am not making a living also from game development. However because there are some aspects that i don;t like in current mmos i decided to give it a shot at making a game in my free time. Probably i will never finish the game but at least i understand a little bit how complex is to make one including the money process.

     

    Good for you, that means nothing to me, nor do I care.  I understand some of the complexities of making a game let alone an MMO, again a false assumption.  And I doubt you actually understand how complex it is.  And I as a consumer of games have the right to give my feedback/criticism at the direction these MMOs are taking.  And good developers welcome this feedback and criticism. 

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Originally posted by apanz3r
     

    I am not making a living also from game development. However because there are some aspects that i don;t like in current mmos i decided to give it a shot at making a game in my free time. Probably i will never finish the game but at least i understand a little bit how complex is to make one including the money process.

     

    Good for you, that means nothing to me, nor do I care.  I understand the complexities of making a game let alone an MMO, again a false assumption.  And I doubt you actually understand how complex it is.  And I as a consumer of games have the right to give my feedback/criticism at the direction these MMOs are taking.  And good developers welcome this feedback and criticism. 

    But only listen to the majority and the majority, like it or not, want balanced F2P games, balanced in this context means anything in the game can be acquired or traded for in-game.

    image
  • SoMuchMassSoMuchMass New York, NYPosts: 548Member
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Originally posted by apanz3r
     

    I am not making a living also from game development. However because there are some aspects that i don;t like in current mmos i decided to give it a shot at making a game in my free time. Probably i will never finish the game but at least i understand a little bit how complex is to make one including the money process.

     

    Good for you, that means nothing to me, nor do I care.  I understand the complexities of making a game let alone an MMO, again a false assumption.  And I doubt you actually understand how complex it is.  And I as a consumer of games have the right to give my feedback/criticism at the direction these MMOs are taking.  And good developers welcome this feedback and criticism. 

    But only listen to the majority and the majority, like it or not, want balanced F2P games, balanced in this context means anything in the game can be acquired or traded for in-game.

    When a F2P game becomes the biggest MMO in the West I will believe that and will assume the culture has changed.  Until then I don't see that as a 100% truth.

    The biggest game is LoL, which is 100% cosmetic.  Which I don't mind the model off.

  • JagaridJagarid West Covina, CAPosts: 415Member

    This is not a "new" definition that has been tricked onto people by developers.  The debate over what is and is not pay to win has been going on ever since the free to play games with cash shops have existed.    It is a difference of opinion by the player base, plain and simple, and has always existed.

     

    Personally I find the debate stupid because all MMOs are pay to win as far as I'm concerned.   Time is money and people with nothing better to do but play games 24-7 have an advantage in all MMOs, hence they are paying (with time) to win.    That's my view on it.  

    Of course, these are the very same people that get so upset when cash shops let other people bypass that time.   Yah, your currency (time) is somehow more legit than someone else's money?  Stop playing games all the time and get a freaking job.    

  • SiveriaSiveria Saint John, New BrunswickPosts: 1,200Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOPapa
    I'll tell you what Pay to Win is when Dragon's Prophet lifts it's NDA. :P

    Well the game is made by the makers of runes of magic and that game is one of the most heavily pay2win mmorpgs out there. The fact it had blasted on it "made by the makers of runes of magic" pretty much immedtaly turned me off to the game. Just from that devs reputation alone for nickle and diming for every little thing. I got into the dragon prophet beta and I can't even find the download for the client anywhere, so I gave up on it.

    Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

    A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

    or

    B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

    Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Livnthedream

    Competition is inherent in games. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5jDspIC4hY (check the description, lots of resources there)

    You are not making any point nor address any of mine.

    Competition and games are 2 different concepts as I pointed out before. Games can be competitive, nothing is inherited.

    Games are played for competition, entertainment, education, etc., games are played for many reasons and purposes.


    By your definition, single player games are no games since you are not competing with anyone there.

    Such definition is obviously incorrect.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by SoMuchMassIt is true, most MMOs while leveling you are behind if you don't put the time in it.  If you think otherwise give me an example of three MMOs that doesn't require time/skill while leveling?  I personally would be glad to see examples that tell me otherwise.Again, but now at max level in several MMOs (not all) you can buy the best gear in the game with real life money.  Mostly in F2P MMOs.  This thread is needed because this is the case in some MMOs not all MMOs.  I specifically said F2P/B2P games if you read the original post.

    For any constructive debate is is very worthy to read carefully posts you reply to and then address the points raised.


    Repeating or re-phrasing same over and over won't miraculously make statements truth, won't turn invalid points into valid nor make up some actual point.


    You implied that only time should matter for progression and that it is how games should and are designed.

    I countered your argument with simple fact of reality - current MMO market, subsequently resulting in creation of this marvelous thread(many, equally pointless).


    tldr:
    Games used to be heavily time dependent but with new player base and increased competition, developers, without much changing their game concept, adopted their payment models so MMO audience with less spare time can get on par with no-lifers.

    More options, the better.

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