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Developers have fooled us over the definition of "Pay-to-Win"

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  • Cod_EyeCod_Eye jarrowPosts: 1,016Member

    I should buy some homing golf balls next time I play Golf then I can win, according to some people here it would be okay to do that, because then I would be on the same footing as the top players.

    The ability to buy your way through a game gives no value to the game or gives that satisfaction of accomplishment.  I bet all these people that pay their way through games use God mode and use other cheats to get through single player game to.

  • seanfitzsseanfitzs PeterboroughPosts: 14Member
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Based on some peoples logic here, if I started an MMO and could buy a character at max level with full epics when the game launches it would not be F2P?  Since you can do that in game anyway?

    You are correct, if you buy that char and in 6 months I get to max level with epics, we are both on an equal footing but who got cheated, it would be you because I played the game for 6 months and had a blast and felt pride in my task.

    Did it bother me that you got you char in 5 min's no. it did not effect me at all, you lost out by buying it.

    If I go up against your char in pvp and another char that grinded out the gear I don't know the difference and don't care.

    Cash should just be to help you along because you don't have the time other people have, if you just buy everything you just cheat yourself not the game.

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by wakatack

    P.S what about the guy who never purchased a lottery ticket ever, until this one time, and they won the biggest jackpot in history....  as a regular purchaser of lottery tickets, would that make it ok for me to "Phish" that person into granting me access to the money?   

    Life is not exactly a competitive game. While you most certainly treat it that way if you choose they are not comparable.

    Based on your example above...  if RNG is not nice to you, then its OK to "PAY 2 WIN".

    So question....   how long / how many attempts should someone make at getting these items before its OK TO PAY??

    No, because that is not p2w. That is pay for convience. For one who talks about the importance of language I do not think you understand what "win" actually is.

     

    Originally posted by Nitth

    Buying in a cashshop is 100% odds that your going to acquire THE item you want.

    Running a dungeon under rng has the same odds for everyone. Everyone gets a dice roll and a chance to win.

    Sounds like a perfectly fair system to me.


    Why do i think its moved to vendor bassed gear distro? Because people lack patients to play, and want it NOW.

    How do you figure exactly? Considering the number of days/weeks one much save up the currency required to buy it from said vendor. As for fair, so is socialism, does not mean its a good form of government.

    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Based on some peoples logic here, if I started an MMO and could buy a character at max level with full epics when the game launches it would not be F2P?  Since you can do that in game anyway?

    Not quite. Transfer of accounts are rather clearly against eula for a number if legal reasons. On top of which generally flat buying levels is not allowed because devs want you to actually play their content to some extent or another.

    What I find funny is that micro transactions of this type has been happening between players since well before ebay was a thing, yet when developers move to fill that space they get shit on for it.

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by seanfitzs

    Originally posted by SoMuchMass Based on some peoples logic here, if I started an MMO and could buy a character at max level with full epics when the game launches it would not be F2P?  Since you can do that in game anyway?
    You are correct, if you buy that char and in 6 months I get to max level with epics, we are both on an equal footing but who got cheated, it would be you because I played the game for 6 months and had a blast and felt pride in my task.

    Did it bother me that you got you char in 5 min's no. it did not effect me at all, you lost out by buying it.

    If I go up against your char in pvp and another char that grinded out the gear I don't know the difference and don't care.

    Cash should just be to help you along because you don't have the time other people have, if you just buy everything you just cheat yourself not the game.


    How does that logic make any sense. the player that reaches 'cap' first will alwas keep progressing in some form, Usually what happens is new cap content will open up for him/her while you still killing rats in the swamp.

    ....

    Why cant it be simple. Everyone plays a game by its rules without outside influences.

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Cod_Eye

    I should buy some homing golf balls next time I play Golf then I can win, according to some people here it would be okay to do that, because then I would be on the same footing as the top players.

    The ability to buy your way through a game gives no value to the game or gives that satisfaction of accomplishment.  I bet all these people that pay their way through games use God mode and use other cheats to get through single player game to.

    Stop equating gear with skill. Or that even spending the time is a skill. Your analogy does not stand.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon

     


    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

     

    What is the definition of "Pay-to-Win"?


     

    There is none, it is a meaningless term serving to point fingers. [mod edit]

  • SkullagrimSkullagrim Dayton, OHPosts: 61Member
    They might as well sell leveled characters. Max leveled character $80 and have the price drop every ten levels. Increase this, increase that, for this much time. Buy gems! trade for gold! Yeah, I am starting to have a hate for it. As I posted earlier, I was one that would cough up the dough for it. lol 
  • SoMuchMassSoMuchMass New York, NYPosts: 548Member
    Originally posted by seanfitzs
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Based on some peoples logic here, if I started an MMO and could buy a character at max level with full epics when the game launches it would not be F2P?  Since you can do that in game anyway?

    You are correct, if you buy that char and in 6 months I get to max level with epics, we are both on an equal footing but who got cheated, it would be you because I played the game for 6 months and had a blast and felt pride in my task.

    Did it bother me that you got you char in 5 min's no. it did not effect me at all, you lost out by buying it.

    If I go up against your char in pvp and another char that grinded out the gear I don't know the difference and don't care.

    Cash should just be to help you along because you don't have the time other people have, if you just buy everything you just cheat yourself not the game.

    I don't agree with the logic but your definition of P2Win is "Buying an in-game advantage that you can't buy with in game currency".

    And if a person can buy a max level character with full epics, that effects me significantly in PvP as I will get destroyed for weeks if not months doing what he did with a click of a button.  Even if I am the hardcore player that leveled really fast, I would be owned by people who bought an in game advantage.

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon

    nvm

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • seanfitzsseanfitzs PeterboroughPosts: 14Member
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Originally posted by seanfitzs
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Based on some peoples logic here, if I started an MMO and could buy a character at max level with full epics when the game launches it would not be F2P?  Since you can do that in game anyway?

    You are correct, if you buy that char and in 6 months I get to max level with epics, we are both on an equal footing but who got cheated, it would be you because I played the game for 6 months and had a blast and felt pride in my task.

    Did it bother me that you got you char in 5 min's no. it did not effect me at all, you lost out by buying it.

    If I go up against your char in pvp and another char that grinded out the gear I don't know the difference and don't care.

    Cash should just be to help you along because you don't have the time other people have, if you just buy everything you just cheat yourself not the game.

    I don't agree with the logic but your definition of P2Win is "Buying an in-game advantage that you can't buy with in game currency".

    And if a person can buy a max level character with full epics, that effects me significantly in PvP as I will get destroyed for weeks if not months doing what he did with a click of a button.  Even if I am the hardcore player that leveled really fast, I would be owned by people who bought an in game advantage.

    I was not saying it is ok to buy a max lvl char i was just pointing out who gets cheated. you should never buy levels, my point was about the p2w issue, people progress at different speeds i dont care how long or by what method they got there we all end up fairly equal in the end if there is no p2w, p2w only occurs if I can buy something more powerfull with money and in most games you cannot

  • seanfitzsseanfitzs PeterboroughPosts: 14Member
    Originally posted by seanfitzs
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Originally posted by seanfitzs
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Based on some peoples logic here, if I started an MMO and could buy a character at max level with full epics when the game launches it would not be F2P?  Since you can do that in game anyway?

    You are correct, if you buy that char and in 6 months I get to max level with epics, we are both on an equal footing but who got cheated, it would be you because I played the game for 6 months and had a blast and felt pride in my task.

    Did it bother me that you got you char in 5 min's no. it did not effect me at all, you lost out by buying it.

    If I go up against your char in pvp and another char that grinded out the gear I don't know the difference and don't care.

    Cash should just be to help you along because you don't have the time other people have, if you just buy everything you just cheat yourself not the game.

    I don't agree with the logic but your definition of P2Win is "Buying an in-game advantage that you can't buy with in game currency".

    And if a person can buy a max level character with full epics, that effects me significantly in PvP as I will get destroyed for weeks if not months doing what he did with a click of a button.  Even if I am the hardcore player that leveled really fast, I would be owned by people who bought an in game advantage.

    I was not saying it is ok to buy a max lvl char i was just pointing out who gets cheated. you should never buy levels, my point was about the p2w issue, people progress at different speeds i dont care how long or by what method they got there we all end up fairly equal in the end if there is no p2w, p2w only occurs if I can buy something more powerfull with money and in most games you cannot

    also on your pvp issue, i played wow for a few years never did pvp, when i tried it I was miles behind everyone else and i got raped for months and had to sit in the corner grinding gear the other players might have paid they may not, I still got raped until i got gear

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,772Member Uncommon
    developers have only fooled the ones who paid and supported the games that offer pay to win while hiding behind the "devs need to eat" comment. Devs eat as well by selling non pay to win stuff that are cool and good. So yeah, silly people whoever supports pay to win and defend it with lame excuses.

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  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member

    I want to say three things and step back and watch how this thread goes on:

    1) Pay2Win = getting an item for cash which is A) better than any other of its class in-game and B) cannot be trade to other players. For an example of this check out the game Gunbound (if it is still kicking of course).

    2) Paying to get to the endgame faster is not pay to win, it is pay to avoid grind or how I like to put it: play to avoid fun and human interactions.

    3) World of Tanks Premium ammo back when it was gold only was not a clear advantage, yes it was better than regular armour piercing ammo in penetration stats but APCR ammo can bounce just as easily as AP ammo off sloped/angled armor and HEAT shells had catastrophically good penetration with the damage of a high explosive shell and ignored slopping on armor but was close range stuff, beyond 300 meters penetration power of the round would go down to around standard High Explosive round rapidly (a HE shell has craptastic penetration for reference) and HEAT ammo is usually found on low velocity howitzer guns (such as the infamous german 105 mm gun) which have bad accuracy to begin with, slow aiming time and the shell arc is ballistic which means if you see them pointing their gun at you in time you have more than enough split seconds to pull your tank into cover/pull back/show em your tracks (tracks have a nasty tendency to eat HE and HEAT shots). Premium ammo was also very expensive to shoot when it was gold only (you could spend dozens of dollars in ammo in a few hours) and even now with the possibility to buy all premium consumables and ammo for credits it is still very expensive to do so (but most tier 7+ tanks carry 5-10 premium shells now when they run into a tier 10 or a british tank destroyer to have some hope in Hell of doing something). Ergo all this considered World of Tanks was never pay 2 win, it was close when gold only stuff existed but now with the move to credit purchases it has gone full Free 2 play.

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  • SkullagrimSkullagrim Dayton, OHPosts: 61Member
    In the end I believe it's not "p2w". It's more getting to the end at a faster pace, bc of cash shop items. Which would be winning in some peoples minds. Everybody wants to finish first. So they can stand around in cities and say look at me! j/k lol
  • Cod_EyeCod_Eye jarrowPosts: 1,016Member
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by Cod_Eye

    I should buy some homing golf balls next time I play Golf then I can win, according to some people here it would be okay to do that, because then I would be on the same footing as the top players.

    The ability to buy your way through a game gives no value to the game or gives that satisfaction of accomplishment.  I bet all these people that pay their way through games use God mode and use other cheats to get through single player game to.

    Stop equating gear with skill. Or that even spending the time is a skill. Your analogy does not stand.

    Actually they are the same, gear and skill is required in both with some element of luck.  The reason some equipment is banned in some sports because they give a distinct advantage.

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by rojo6934
    developers have only fooled the ones who paid and supported the games that offer pay to win while hiding behind the "devs need to eat" comment. Devs eat as well by selling non pay to win stuff that are cool and good. So yeah, silly people whoever supports pay to win and defend it with lame excuses.

    So you are calling Cousins a liar? http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win

     

    Originally posted by Cod_Eye

    Actually they are the same, gear and skill is required in both with some element of luck.  The reason some equipment is banned in some sports because they give a distinct advantage.

    Thats not what your analogy stated though. Your analogy rather clearly stated that you were not as good as others so you should get to handicap them. Whats even funnier is this one also suffers from the same issue, unless you somehow forget the sheer number of other sports that do allow different equipment and consider it part of the competition.

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    I would love it if that were a definition.  But the fact is different, I bought a full set of PvP gear in Neverwinter with Astral Diamonds which I had from a Founder's Pack, so I had the advantage.  So again, completely wrong.  But nice try with the definition, not what I was looking for.

    Sure, but how long are you going to have said advantage? One week? Two? How long until the general populace catches up to you and once again you are on equal footing gear wise?

  • SoMuchMassSoMuchMass New York, NYPosts: 548Member
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    I would love it if that were a definition.  But the fact is different, I bought a full set of PvP gear in Neverwinter with Astral Diamonds which I had from a Founder's Pack, so I had the advantage.  So again, completely wrong.  But nice try with the definition, not what I was looking for.

    Sure, but how long are you going to have said advantage? One week? Two? How long until the general populace catches up to you and once again you are on equal footing gear wise?

    If the PvP system was like WoW, I could have an advantage till the new expansion comes out (gear reset).  Not sure how often Cryptic will update PvP gear in their game.

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    If the PvP system was like WoW, I could have an advantage till the new expansion comes out.  Not sure how often Cryptic will update PvP gear in their game.

    LOLWUT?! Unless something has changed drastically with Mop that I missed this is blatant bullshit. Even constantly losing will get you on par in a matter of weeks. Even faster if your talking about arena.

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    I would love it if that were a definition.  But the fact is different, I bought a full set of PvP gear in Neverwinter with Astral Diamonds which I had from a Founder's Pack, so I had the advantage.  So again, completely wrong.  But nice try with the definition, not what I was looking for.

    Sure, but how long are you going to have said advantage? One week? Two? How long until the general populace catches up to you and once again you are on equal footing gear wise?

    If the PvP system was like WoW, I could have an advantage till the new expansion comes out (gear reset).  Not sure how often Cryptic will update PvP gear in their game.

    And that's just plain dumb... he already said he bought a set of PvP gear with Astral Diamonds, that means it was from, likely, the auction house, that means someone put it there first which means the only thing that guy did was cut out the AD grind. If that's pay 2 win then I am pretty sure the level scrolls for World of Warcraft count as pay 2 win too.

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  • SoMuchMassSoMuchMass New York, NYPosts: 548Member
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    If the PvP system was like WoW, I could have an advantage till the new expansion comes out.  Not sure how often Cryptic will update PvP gear in their game.

    LOLWUT?! Unless something has changed drastically with Mop that I missed this is blatant bullshit. Even constantly losing will get you on par in a matter of weeks. Even faster if your talking about arena.

    Don't take my word for it, Blizzard changed their PvP system to address these concerns.

    http://www.wowhead.com/news=210066/pvp-gear-in-5-2-and-beyond

    "Blizzard just released a blog about PvP gear moving forward in Mists of Pandaria. They acknowledge that players who start early have an advantage, that there's a big gap between the power of Honor and Conquest Point gear, and that the 2200 rating requirement on gear creates a sharp gearing divide"

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    Don't take my word for it, Blizzard changed their PvP system to address these concerns.

    http://www.wowhead.com/news=210066/pvp-gear-in-5-2-and-beyond

    "Blizzard just released a blog about PvP gear moving forward in Mists of Pandaria. They acknowledge that players who start early have an advantage, that there's a big gap between the power of Honor and Conquest Point gear, and that the 2200 rating requirement on gear creates a sharp gearing divide"

    Yes, just like they claimed that lfd was too hard so nerfed it into the ground, numerous times. This is nothing but catering to the masses. It was not hard to hit 2200 with enough to buy the main pieces of your gear set. For someone searching for answers you certainly are fighting them awfully hard.

  • SoMuchMassSoMuchMass New York, NYPosts: 548Member
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    Don't take my word for it, Blizzard changed their PvP system to address these concerns.

    http://www.wowhead.com/news=210066/pvp-gear-in-5-2-and-beyond

    "Blizzard just released a blog about PvP gear moving forward in Mists of Pandaria. They acknowledge that players who start early have an advantage, that there's a big gap between the power of Honor and Conquest Point gear, and that the 2200 rating requirement on gear creates a sharp gearing divide"

    Yes, just like they claimed that lfd was too hard so nerfed it into the ground, numerous times. This is nothing but catering to the masses. It was not hard to hit 2200 with enough to buy the main pieces of your gear set. For someone searching for answers you certainly are fighting them awfully hard.

    What happened was players that had a head start had the best gear in the game.  Across all ratings, so even good players had a difficult time rising up in Arena because of the gear inflation.  If you watched players like Reckful stream you would see how his new character with epics used to get demolished by 1500 players because of gear.  So the best players did not level alts in Arena, but waited for the reset the next season.

    I have my definition.  I want to know if my definition is the norm.  Based on this thread, it doesn't seem like there is a definition. There are different opinions.

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,643Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Cod_Eye
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    So am I wrong?  What is the definition of "Pay-to-Win"?

    The ability to buy items that gives an advantage with real money.

     

    I now it isn't the standard definition but I personally would expand it to include any ability to buy in game rewards, rather than playing for them.

    If character development is 'winning' in these games, and even appearance is a measure of development, then anything that short cuts the user from actually having to engage with content to earn that is, in my eyes, 'pay to win'.

    I wouldn't argue my definition is the accepted one generally, but there ya go.

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Cod_Eye
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    So am I wrong?  What is the definition of "Pay-to-Win"?

    The ability to buy items that gives an advantage with real money.

     

    I now it isn't the standard definition but I personally would expand it to include any ability to buy in game rewards, rather than playing for them.

    If character development is 'winning' in these games, and even appearance is a measure of development, then anything that short cuts the user from actually having to engage with content to earn that is, in my eyes, 'pay to win'.

    I wouldn't argue my definition is the accepted one generally, but there ya go.

    So how does your definition factor in games where players can buy items from the shop and trade them to other players? the 2nd player in the equation does not pay to win, he grinds to win but he will still get to the same power level as the pay 2 win player ergo the latter wouldn't really pay 2 win now would he?

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