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Developers have fooled us over the definition of "Pay-to-Win"

SoMuchMassSoMuchMass New York, NYPosts: 548Member

To me the definition of "Pay-to-Win" has always been something in an MMO that let you gain an in-game advantage.  In almost all F2P/B2P MMOs you can get some of the best gear in the game with real life money, usually by converting real life money to game currency and buying epics.  For example, I can gear my character in GW2 or Neverwinter in full "epics" with real life money.

I keep hearing players and developers now say that if you can get this gear in game with game currency, it isn't "Pay-to-Win".  When did this become the definition become the norm?

If I can get the best gear in the game with real life money, and I can get it with in-game currency.  It is still "Pay-to-Win".  Because usually you can buy in-game currency with real life money.

Star Citizen and Chris Roberts recently took this approach.  In Star Citizen you can buy all the ships with real life money.  When people said it was "Pay-to-Win", RSI said it isn't "Pay-to-Win" because you can buy the ships in game.

So am I wrong?  What is the definition of "Pay-to-Win"?

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Comments

  • Cod_EyeCod_Eye jarrowPosts: 1,016Member
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

     

    So am I wrong?  What is the definition of "Pay-to-Win"?

    The ability to buy items that gives an advantage with real money.

  • KazuhiroKazuhiro Hampshire, AZPosts: 501Member Uncommon
    Your correct, you have the only "real" definition of Pay-2-Win. Sadly a lot of quite frankly stupid/ignorant people today seem to have a messed up definition of it. Pay-2-Win is simply ANY situation where you can spend real world money to obtain an item/upgrade/etc in a game that gives an advantage, period, regardless of the item being available in the game or not. Since you are paying real money, to obtain an item, that allows you to win situations easier. Hence Pay-2-Win. Cosmetic items are the only thing a game that can sell realistically that isn't pay-2-win. (And some other rare exceptions, like server transfers/name changes/character slots/etc.)

    To find an intelligent person in a PUG is not that rare, but to find a PUG made up of "all" intelligent people is one of the rarest phenomenons in the known universe.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,293Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Cod_Eye
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

     

    So am I wrong?  What is the definition of "Pay-to-Win"?

    The ability to buy items that gives an advantage with real money.

    This.  The definition of p2w hasn't changed.

    The definition of advantage is what keeps changing. 

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • seanfitzsseanfitzs PeterboroughPosts: 14Member

    Player A earns full epic gear in game, player B buys full epic gear. Player A and Player B meet who has the advantage?

    I am player c I don't have any gear, I meet player A and player B they both kick my ass, which one has the advantage?

     

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by seanfitzs
    Player A earns full epic gear in game, player B buys full epic gear. Player A and Player B meet who has the advantage?I am player c I don't have any gear, I meet player A and player B they both kick my ass, which one has the advantage? 

    You do. with one quick transaction you can play with the big boys.

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • wakatackwakatack DarwinPosts: 7Member
    Originally posted by seanfitzs

    Player A earns full epic gear in game, player B buys full epic gear. Player A and Player B meet who has the advantage?

    I am player c I don't have any gear, I meet player A and player B they both kick my ass, which one has the advantage?

     

     Its amazing how what you "leave out" of a response is just as important as what you "put in"

     

    Player A, spent 6 months making friends, doing group content, and earning the Epic Gear the way it was intended.

    Player B, spent 6 minutes, making the transaction, to turn real money to in-game money, to purchase the gear.

    Player C, was hacked, which is why they have no gear ;)

  • seanfitzsseanfitzs PeterboroughPosts: 14Member
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by seanfitzs
    Player A earns full epic gear in game, player B buys full epic gear. Player A and Player B meet who has the advantage?

     

    I am player c I don't have any gear, I meet player A and player B they both kick my ass, which one has the advantage?

     


     

    You do. with one quick transaction you can play with the big boys.


    So my advantage is that if i buy the gear it puts me on an equal footing with them but I got to do it a week or two faster then they did? wow that's an amazing advantage

     

    What you mean by p2w is pay to join the big boys, how do i actually win when i pay?

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Nitth

     

    You do. with one quick transaction you can play with the big boys.

    How is that an advantage?

     

    @op World of Tanks is pay to win. They have ammo in its cash shop that is superior to any that can be received in game. That is the very definition of buying power.

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by wakatack

     Its amazing how what you "leave out" of a response is just as important as what you "put in"

     

    Player A, spent 6 months making friends, doing group content, and earning the Epic Gear the way it was intended.

    Player B, spent 6 minutes, making the transaction, to turn real money to in-game money, to purchase the gear.

    Player C, was hacked, which is why they have no gear ;)

    So you are butthurt because someone did not go through all of the trials and tribulations that you did? What about the guy who gets lucky and wins every roll first time through? Or the guy who ground out the gold to pay to those players to run him through?

  • seanfitzsseanfitzs PeterboroughPosts: 14Member
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by Nitth

     

    You do. with one quick transaction you can play with the big boys.

    How is that an advantage?

     

    @op World of Tanks is pay to win. They have ammo in its cash shop that is superior to any that can be received in game. That is the very definition of buying power.

     

    this is p2w, me being instantly on the top gear would actually put me at a disadvantage because I don't have the experience the other players have.

    It is only p2w when you can buy items that are more powerfull and cannot be obtained any other way.

  • SkullagrimSkullagrim Dayton, OHPosts: 61Member
    I have 6 level 80 characters on GW2. Six of them I have bought epics for real money. At the time it cost about $25 a character.  I totally fell for the pitfall. There was no sense of accomplishment. I know it was a personal choice. At the same time I think the cash shops are cancer to the genre. 
  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by Nitth   You do. with one quick transaction you can play with the big boys.
    How is that an advantage?

    Because your cheating the acquisition time of getting the items.

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • MMOPapaMMOPapa Strasburg, VAPosts: 121Member
    I'll tell you what Pay to Win is when Dragon's Prophet lifts it's NDA. :P

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  • wakatackwakatack DarwinPosts: 7Member
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by Nitth

     

    You do. with one quick transaction you can play with the big boys.

    How is that an advantage?

     

    @op World of Tanks is pay to win. They have ammo in its cash shop that is superior to any that can be received in game. That is the very definition of buying power.

     I am against Pay-2-Win games period, but I ask you this..

    How does it feel, buying this Best-in-Game "ammo", and then "owning" everyone else??

  • seanfitzsseanfitzs PeterboroughPosts: 14Member
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by Livnthedream

    Originally posted by Nitth   You do. with one quick transaction you can play with the big boys.
    How is that an advantage?

     

    Because your cheating the acquisition time of getting the items.

    Some people can make gold in game really fast some people take a long time to make gold, what is the offical time anyone should spend on grinding out gold for items.

    I do agree that anyone who buys gold for gear is cheating themeself's of the experience of the game but that is there choice it does not impact anyone but them. I personally would play not pay.

    And it is still not p2w.

     

     

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Nitth
    Because your cheating the acquisition time of getting the items.
     

    So is every rng based system ever. Are you saying that all rng should be removed also?

     

    Originally posted by wakatack

     I am against Pay-2-Win games period, but I ask you this..

    How does it feel, buying this Best-in-Game "ammo", and then "owning" everyone else??


    Apparently pretty good because vast numbers of players play World of Tanks, and Wargaming is making an absolute killing over the game. Whats truly funny is no matter how much you piss and moan over how "p2w" is the devil it clearly has no effect on the title http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win

     

  • MMOPapaMMOPapa Strasburg, VAPosts: 121Member
    Originally posted by wakatack
    How does it feel, buying this Best-in-Game "ammo", and then "owning" everyone else??

    Why does this question remind me of the York Peppermint Patty commercials? I've never paid to win; once I realize something is unfair for others, even if it isn't me...? I quit. But I'd imagine that since Trolls seem to get off by being Trolls; money-spending bullies get their jollies just the same?

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  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    So is every rng based system ever. Are you saying that all rng should be removed also?

    Random number generated loot is Random your not going to a cash shop with a shopping list.

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon

    Cash shops are just dumb. I cant believe so many of you here cant afford 15 monthly fee but jump all over games that have cash shops and nickel and dime you to death. Look at Defiance, sadly. Just came out for 60$ and lots of issues/bugs, and not a lot of content. Already they have a 10$ DLC..................... I stay far away from that BS as i can.

     

     

  • Cod_EyeCod_Eye jarrowPosts: 1,016Member
    Originally posted by seanfitzs

    Player A earns full epic gear in game, player B buys full epic gear. Player A and Player B meet who has the advantage?

    I am player c I don't have any gear, I meet player A and player B they both kick my ass, which one has the advantage?

     

    Technically its cheating, and you can swing all your arguments anyway you want, its still cheating.

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    So is every rng based system ever. Are you saying that all rng should be removed also?


    Random number generated loot is Random your not going to a cash shop with a shopping list.

    Again, why does that matter? How is it any different for the person who gets "lucky" and gets it first time and the person who has to run the dungeon 600 times to get it? Why do you think so much have been moved off from random loot tables and instead have been moved to vendors.

  • wakatackwakatack DarwinPosts: 7Member
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by wakatack

     Its amazing how what you "leave out" of a response is just as important as what you "put in"

     

    Player A, spent 6 months making friends, doing group content, and earning the Epic Gear the way it was intended.

    Player B, spent 6 minutes, making the transaction, to turn real money to in-game money, to purchase the gear.

    Player C, was hacked, which is why they have no gear ;)

    So you are butthurt because someone did not go through all of the trials and tribulations that you did? What about the guy who gets lucky and wins every roll first time through? Or the guy who ground out the gold to pay to those players to run him through?

    I am sorry you are unable to understand the importance of language.

     

    P.S what about the guy who never purchased a lottery ticket ever, until this one time, and they won the biggest jackpot in history....  as a regular purchaser of lottery tickets, would that make it ok for me to "Phish" that person into granting me access to the money?   

    Based on your example above...  if RNG is not nice to you, then its OK to "PAY 2 WIN".

    So question....   how long / how many attempts should someone make at getting these items before its OK TO PAY??

     

  • mcrippinsmcrippins Dallas, TXPosts: 1,069Member Uncommon

    If I buy an XP booster in a game for real cash, is that considered pay 2 win? Technically I would level faster than others who don't have one, and I would potentially get to "EPICS!!!1" faster than others. So by definition of some of the people in this discussion - that would be p2w. 

     

    I personally don't see it that way. The example in World of Tanks is P2W in my eyes since the item can ONLY be acquired by purchasing it with real life money. 

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Livnthedream

    Originally posted by Nitth  

    Originally posted by Livnthedream So is every rng based system ever. Are you saying that all rng should be removed also?
    Random number generated loot is Random your not going to a cash shop with a shopping list.
    Again, why does that matter? How is it any different for the person who gets "lucky" and gets it first time and the person who has to run the dungeon 600 times to get it? Why do you think so much have been moved off from random loot tables and instead have been moved to vendors.

    Buying in a cashshop is 100% odds that your going to acquire THE item you want.

    Running a dungeon under rng has the same odds for everyone. Everyone gets a dice roll and a chance to win.

    Sounds like a perfectly fair system to me.


    Why do i think its moved to vendor bassed gear distro? Because people lack patients to play, and want it NOW.

    image
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  • SoMuchMassSoMuchMass New York, NYPosts: 548Member
    Based on some peoples logic here, if I started an MMO and could buy a character at max level with full epics when the game launches it would not be F2P?  Since you can do that in game anyway?
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