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[Column] General: Dead MMOs and Emotional Connections

13

Comments

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Beatnik59

    They may not have been out to piss in my Cheerios, but there is an awfully pissy taste in my Cheerios, and Joe Schmoe's Cheerios, nevertheless.

    Now if we open up a box of Cheerios and it tastes like piss, a good way to prevent eating piss in the future is to stop buying Cheerios.  That's what a reasonable person would do.

    But, apparently, in MMO land, if we eat pissy Cheerios, we ought to "get over it," "embrace the new" and go buy another box of Cheerios expecting things will be different this time around.

    There will be some that say that the producer had to relieve himself in our Cheerios so he could give us a newer and better Cheerios that we should enjoy instead.

    There will be others that say that the piss in our Cheerios was all in our minds; that somehow we 'wanted' pissy Cheerios, and we ought to have known that the Cheerios we were buying were piss flavored.

    There are others who would say that the Cheerios tasted fine; that we just imagined the Cheerios tasted like piss, because the vast majority of people who ate the same Cheerios claim there was no piss.

    But any way you slice it, when the Cheerios they serve us taste bad, like it does when someone closes down something we like and pay good money into, the people who are angry ought not to expect things will be better next time.  They ought to learn and not make the same mistake that made them so miserable.  They ought to refrain from getting into something until they have better assurances.  Isn't that fair?

    When you have unrealistic expectations of course everything is going to taste like piss. Do you eat every meal expecting it to be the best thing you have every eaten? Why do you expect every game to be THE game? [mod edit]

  • sunshadow21sunshadow21 Omaha, NEPosts: 354Member
    Originally posted by Leiloni
    Originally posted by sunshadow21
    All games die, and people need to accept that, but at the same time, that doesn't mean that the deaths should be treated as insignificant. For the people who invested their time and effort into them, either as player or developer, it is something that deserves a bit more than "Get over it." Most folks can and will eventually find a replacement if they really want to, but trying to disregard the disappointment of losing the first one and expecting that process to start and end immediately is both unrealistic and unfair.

    You are far too emotionally invested in games and seem to take them a bit too seriously. Yea it's normal to be disappointed if a game is shut down, just like you're disappointed when you're favorite TV show is cancelled. But that's it. It was enjoyable while it lasted and there will be other things to enjoy in the future. It's just a form of entertainment for you. Any friends you made you can keep in touch with. Those that worked in it will find new jobs. There are more important things in life to worry about. Games are not one of them.

     

    Things in life change and maybe it's just me, but I'm used to it. You go to different schools as you grow up. You have different jobs as an adult. Friends come and go for various reasons. You have different homes you live in. Life is ever-changing. The key to happiness is learning to roll with it. Appreciate the past, look forward to the future, and live in the present. And I can't say this enough, but it's just a damn game.

    You have valid points, but for the people who actually enjoy developing an attachment to a community, which was the whole point of these games to begin with, the loss of that community shouldn't just be written off and pushed aside as if it wasn't important. That seems to be the sticking point for a lot of people; it's not so much the fact that games, even MMOs eventually end, its the how and why that usually prove to be the biggest sources of anger and frustration. Too often the people who decide to cancel these games do so without considering the side effects created by the loss of community, and create far more ill will than is necessary because of it. Games can and will die, but that doesn't mean that one can't show respect to the dying, or soon to be dead, game and it's remaining fan base.

  • sunshadow21sunshadow21 Omaha, NEPosts: 354Member
    Another thing to consider is that games are not like TV in that games require the player to actively participate, making some kind of attachment much more likely even for the most casual game. It's less of a problem with the current generation of MMOs than the older ones due to the fact that current ones limit true interactivity, and thus attachment, in ways that the older ones never did, but even with the current ones, active participation is still necessary. Any time you have active participation, the level of loss felt is going to increase. A TV show being cancelled is disappointing, but in most cases, the viewers don't lose much of themselves in the process. Games being cancelled are very different in that in order to really get the most from them, interactivity, active choice, and some kind of attachment are required. It doesn't have to be deep mourning level of attachment, but it does usually have to be more than "Oh well, what else is out there?" and promptly forget about it which is a far too common of a response today. Whether this is the fault of the games themselves, their players, or both is beyond my full understanding, but it disturbs me that so many seem to treat an interactive medium the same way they do tv, which is a completely different type of entertainment.
  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILPosts: 2,237Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Livnthedream

    When you have unrealistic expectations of course everything is going to taste like piss. Do you eat every meal expecting it to be the best thing you have every eaten? Why do you expect every game to be THE game? I mean by how your acting you have went into every date assuming that this one is the one too. Come shave your neckbeard and join the rest of humanity.

    I don't think I expect anything unreasonable.  I want to enjoy the things I like.  I want to pay for the things I like.  I want to keep the things I buy.  It's what everybody else does.  Why can't I have that too?

    See, it's kind of the reason normal people think MMO players are nuts.  I ask my friends, "Why don't you buy this game I'm playing?"  They say, "what happens when the makers get sick of it?"

    And, you know, I don't know how to answer that one.  Because they are right to ask the question, and right to be concerned about it.  They don't have to wonder about "what happens if the makers get sick of it" in other things.  They are in control of their own pleasure and they are free to enjoy the things they want.

    Instead of trying to justify why myself and my non-MMO playing friends shouldn't expect more, why can't we figure out ways where we can get more?  I mean, these wireheads in tech industries fancy themselves good at solving problems.  Why can't they fix this one? 

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  • Captain-ElectricCaptain-Electric Irving, TXPosts: 4Member
    Originally posted by danwest58

    Crap like this is why MMOs suck today.  We have what 40+ mmos for 20 to 50 Million players.  The fact still remains we have too many, we have 6 to 12 new mmos coming out each year and the MMO population is not growing its more stagnate if anything.  I know many people that have left the MMO world because so so games come out and they go F2P instead of closing down.  As well they are tired of seeing games like UO which was a Great game in its time still active 15 years later.  There comes a time when games need to shut down so newer MMOS can come out.  

    As much as people want to hold to these old games or barely profitable games there comes a time when hindrance on moving forward.  Its just like having a building that is 200 years old standing on a corner that now is a major growing township taking up space.  No one wants to use it, however people want to keep it there because its a part of history however its taking up space that can be used to ease traffic, or for a new building like a gas station.  But no we have a handful of people that want to see through tinted glasses as this building means so much to a community when it means JACK SHIT but to a handful.   The same goes for MMOs, there is a time when you need to shut games down and design newer ones.  Maybe use the ideas from the old games, but the point still stand; its time to move on.  

     

    So, which publisher do you work for?

    -

    By your rationale, Chess players should have stopped playing Chess a long time ago. Do you really think that all of those people who still play UO are doing it just to stand in the way of publishers who want to churn out more MMOburgers? Maybe they're playing it because they enjoy playing it. Maybe they're playing it because it's a fun game to them. This is exactly why, 15 years later, I still have a UO account. And this is also exactly why, 9 years later, [mod edit] I couldn't give a crap less whether some profiteering goon has a problem with where I'm spending my money.

    -

    I'm not your freakin' cattle, I've got my own mind, and wherever that mind does line up with your agenda, I assure you, it's strictly a coincidence. Publish better games, stop crunch-timing your studios, give me more quality, and that'll happen more often. Until then, suck it up, or stop sucking so bad, year after year. Maybe if ya'll could do something RIGHT, I wouldn't still turn to old games like UO [mod edit], year after year. It's not my fault you're not getting my money for most of your next generation garbage.

    -

    (Edit: Why does MMORPG.com hate paragraphs?) 

     
     
     
  • AntiquatedAntiquated Oak Brook, MIPosts: 673Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Captain-Electric

    (Edit: Why does MMORPG.com hate paragraphs?) 

    .

    Hard return (enter key, comes with built-in space-before by default)
    Soft return (pasted-in from notepad, no space before (but bullet/list mode treats it properly...buh?))

    Only one bit of the weirdness inherent in this editor.
  • AcidonAcidon Salem, ORPosts: 797Member

    Thank you very much for this write-up. 

    That article on Massively bugged me in much the same way it did you.  I neither agreed with it nor felt it was even something that should have been printed.

    I imagine that there are many gamers these days that have never formed any legitimate bond to a specific game.  Such is the nature of online gaming recently I suppose.

    For those of us that have had very strong bonds to a game that was taken offline, it's not a good experience - at all.  It's not okay.  Yes, we have to deal with it.  No, there's nothing we can do about it.  But that neither makes it easy or okay.

     

    Anyway, thank you for this latest iteration of your column.  You stated pretty much what I was feeling about that article.  And I don't work in the gaming industry (though I wish that I did!).

     

    Playing: H1Z1, The Crew, Defiance, APB:Reloaded
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  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk LiverpoolPosts: 976Member Uncommon

    I've had two games shut down on me and it sucks. [mod edit]

    And that's the problem, all this legal BS about a dead game. If these companies are shutting the doors anyway why don't they make the server software available to the fans? What are they losing? If they're shutting down and stopping taking cash then why can't they give the thing away to the people who want to keep playing it?

     

    I can't understand why MMO companies that close a game down don't do this. Mark Jacobs has already declared that if CU folds he'll make the server software available to the community. This is a great move (one I hope he never has to live up to) and it's one that should be applauded. If only some other publishers would be so generous. Yeah I'm looking at you SOE and EA.

     

    Personally, I think Mike Foster is so full of shit that his eyes have turned brown.

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILPosts: 2,237Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by Beatnik59

    I don't think I expect anything unreasonable.  I want to enjoy the things I like.  I want to pay for the things I like.  I want to keep the things I buy.  It's what everybody else does.  Why can't I have that too?

    LOLWUT?! You just got done saying that everything tastes of piss? Are you insane?

    Not "everything" tastes like piss to me.  Only the business model that the industry and industry apologists like you seem to want to ram down my throat.

    People who see things your way had their chance to convince me, and they failed. So now I'm doing what a reasonable person should do and vote with my wallet. Why throw money at this industry when it refuses to give me what I want?

    When people take away the things I buy and enjoy, I don't like it. It's something that even a five year old can understand and most people can understand. You may not care. But my gripe is a whole lot more understandable to people outside this whole MMORPG echo chamber we've built here.

    Then you ask me to give you "links" to my friends and other "normal people."  My normal people don't waste time posting their opinions on MMORPGs on the web for the convenience of trolls.  But, since you asked, one of the people is a buddy of mine at the university.  He's no stranger to computers and online fun.  He crunches statistics for a living, and I remember trying to get him in to Star Wars Galaxies back in the day when it was new.  He was originally intrigued, but then he saw that there was an online component, he said "What happens when nobody shows?  I've got enough problems already."

    The second guy was a high school dropout doing odd jobs.  Now he's no stranger to games either.  He plays Counterstrike, FPS, Diablo and so on.  I talked to him recently after CoH closed, and I was feeling rather bad about it.  I tried explaining to him what went on, why it had to close, what it was all about and so on.  "Dude, that's a pretty stupid game to get into," he said.  "What good is throwing all that money into subs, costumes and loot if they are just going to close down?"

    The third was my mother.  When I came back over the summer, I played CoH at my house.  Back in the fall, when I was feeling low, she said, "You should go play that game you were so into."  I said, "Can't.  It's too hard to log back in."  She said "Why not?  Don't you like it any more?"  And I said "It's too damn hard to go back...they are shutting it down in November."

    She got angry.  "Didn't your brother buy that for you in 2005?  What do you mean it's 'shutting down'?"  I explained to her for about five minutes why something my brother bought at the store could "shut down."  When I have to take that long to explain to a reasonable, honest person like my mother how this industry works, that in itself is a good indication that there's a problem with it.  But then she said "You're a damn fool for throwing so much money into that game then, looking at how you feel now."  And you know what?  She's right.

    She also quite Frontierville soon after that exchange.

    We're all "damn fools" for throwing so much money and effort into these things.  But what's even more foolish, to me at least, is why it is so important for people like you to not want something better?  Why is it so damn important for you and people like you to polish this turd?  We ought to expect better.

    See, it ain't that controversial to understand that when a publisher does what it wants, when it wants, and for whatever reason it wants, your investment is in danger.  And that's not just investment in a money sense.  It's also investment in a time sense and an emotional sense.

    I guess you can come back and say, "Then all this shows is that you ought not to invest so much time, money and attachment to MMOs."  Which is smart advice, but if everybody followed that advice, the games would go bust even faster, since nobody would feel any need to throw money at them.

    Again, whether you think the service cancelation issue is a problem or not is immaterial. It's a problem for many, and if you don't believe me, use your eyes and look at this thread.  Myself, I'd just rather play something better, wait for something better and wait for something more secure.

    What's wrong with that?

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Beatnik59
    /snipped for epic levels of brevity

    Again, whether you think the service cancelation issue is a problem or not is immaterial. It's a problem for many, and if you don't believe me, use your eyes and look at this thread.  Myself, I'd just rather play something better, wait for something better and wait for something more secure.

    What's wrong with that?

    Whats wrong with that is you live and work in a service based economy, This is not going to change until it can be shown that a non service based one is better. Till then you will be waiting a long time for a game with a decent production value to make a dent much less replace it. An mmo is no different from a whore. You can get on a first name basis, be friends, chit chat on the phone, whatever. But it will never stop the fact that you are paying her for sex. I am sorry that your "normal" buddies and your mom are not smart enough to realize this, but that is how the world works.

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILPosts: 2,237Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by Beatnik59
    /snipped for epic levels of brevity

    Again, whether you think the service cancelation issue is a problem or not is immaterial. It's a problem for many, and if you don't believe me, use your eyes and look at this thread.  Myself, I'd just rather play something better, wait for something better and wait for something more secure.

    What's wrong with that?

    Whats wrong with that is you live and work in a service based economy, This is not going to change until it can be shown that a non service based one is better. Till then you will be waiting a long time for a game with a decent production value to make a dent much less replace it. An mmo is no different from a whore. You can get on a first name basis, be friends, chit chat on the phone, whatever. But it will never stop the fact that you are paying her for sex. I am sorry that your "normal" buddies and your mom are not smart enough to realize this, but that is how the world works.

    You know who the bigger fool is in the "john and whore" relationship, don't you?

    See, smart folks don't go in for whores, because they know that the momentary need to "scratch an itch" ain't worth the price.  Because all the whore can give you is the illusion of something real, not anything real.  When you need her the most, she ain't there.  When you run out of cash, she's gone.  When you're laid up in the hospital, she doesn't even know your name.  And when the going gets rough, she denies you.

    Smart people know not to get mixed up with whores because it never ends well.  That's why the friends and family you insult speak the truth.  Far from being "not smart enough," they are--in fact--far smarter than people like you give them credit for.  Because they know, just like you and I know, that "an mmo is no different from a whore," and that it never ends well for the john.

    The people who go in for whores are the worst of the worst: people with low impulse control.  People with esteem issues.  People who are hit upside the head by some tragedy and looking for an escape.  It is not dissimilar to most of the vice industries: gambling, booze and drugs.  It is an industry that is built upon exploiting the vulnerable.  And MMOs have become, like it or not, just another panderer of illusions, to pander to the exploitable.

    It wasn't always thought of in that way.  In the early 2000s, people like Edward Castronova, Richard Bartle, Clay Shirkey and Raph Koster had high hopes that this new, virtual landscape we were creating could be a new source of community.  It could be a new route of creativity and self-expression. 

    And, indeed, the games themselves give off powerful illusions of these very things.  But it ain't real.  None of it is real.  If it were real, it couldn't be taken away so easily.  You only get a sense of this when a publisher "takes the money and runs," and you are left with nothing but regret.  Your "friends" are gone.  Your means of expression is gone.  The things with which you build your self-esteem are gone.  And you are thrown back out into the world that has passed you by worse than when you started.

    But who is the bigger fool?  The person who takes the money and runs?  Or the person who was taken for a ride?

    Sometimes, you've got to act the fool so that you learn the hard way.  Folks who got burned by this industry, and really feel the sting, become a little wiser.  They won't make the same mistakes twice.

    Now perhaps you're right.  Perhaps this industry "is not going to change" for the better, but will stagnate, dig in their heels and attempt to sell us the same old deal they did the last time.  All that means is that the problems of alienation and regret will only grow worse, and affect more people, the more time goes on.  And the more time goes by, and the more people get burned by the choices out there, will only mean that the people like me will grow in number.

    Besides, there's so much to play out there, a person really doesn't have to wait around for something better.  So I'll wait a long time?  Big deal.  At least I won't get screwed.

    But the definition of insanity, I have heard, is doing the same old thing and expecting a different result.  Given that I don't want the same result of my last three MMOs that closed down on me, why on earth would I be stupid enough to buy into the same thing?

     

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Beatnik59

    You know who the bigger fool is in the "john and whore" relationship, don't you?

    See, smart folks don't go in for whores, because they know that the momentary need to "scratch an itch" ain't worth the price.  Because all the whore can give you is the illusion of something real, not anything real.  When you need her the most, she ain't there.  When you run out of cash, she's gone.  When you're laid up in the hospital, she doesn't even know your name.  And when the going gets rough, she denies you.

    Except you are still making the same mistake. The "need" for sex is not the same as the need for intimacy. Of course you do not go to a whore to fulfill the former.

    Smart people know not to get mixed up with whores because it never ends well.  That's why the friends and family you insult speak the truth.  Far from being "not smart enough," they are--in fact--far smarter than people like you give them credit for.  Because they know, just like you and I know, that "an mmo is no different from a whore," and that it never ends well for the john.

    Really? http://studioknow.com/2011/05/top-12-famous-prostitutes-in-history/ Just how little do you know of the worlds oldest profession. And that is just one of dozens of links.

    It wasn't always thought of in that way.  In the early 2000s, people like Edward Castronova, Richard Bartle, Clay Shirkey and Raph Koster had high hopes that this new, virtual landscape we were creating could be a new source of community.  It could be a new route of creativity and self-expression. 

    WOW! You invoke the name of Koster? Here is what he has to say on games as service http://www.raphkoster.com/2011/07/21/10-game-design-lessons-for-games-as-service-my-cc2011-talk/

    Now perhaps you're right.  Perhaps this industry "is not going to change" for the better, but will stagnate, dig in their heels and attempt to sell us the same old deal they did the last time.  All that means is that the problems of alienation and regret will only grow worse, and affect more people, the more time goes on.  And the more time goes by, and the more people get burned by the choices out there, will only mean that the people like me will grow in number.

    Not likely. The playerbase only continues to grow year after year http://www.newzoo.com/insights/the-global-mmo-market-sizing-and-seizing-opportunities-2/

    Besides, there's so much to play out there, a person really doesn't have to wait around for something better.  So I'll wait a long time?  Big deal.  At least I won't get screwed.

    But the definition of insanity, I have heard, is doing the same old thing and expecting a different result.  Given that I don't want the same result of my last three MMOs that closed down on me, why on earth would I be stupid enough to buy into the same thing?

    Because its not insanity when you are the problem and not the game. You have a serious loss issue, I recommend you seek therapy.

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILPosts: 2,237Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
     

    Besides, there's so much to play out there, a person really doesn't have to wait around for something better.  So I'll wait a long time?  Big deal.  At least I won't get screwed.

    But the definition of insanity, I have heard, is doing the same old thing and expecting a different result.  Given that I don't want the same result of my last three MMOs that closed down on me, why on earth would I be stupid enough to buy into the same thing?

    Because its not insanity when you are the problem and not the game. You have a serious loss issue, I recommend you seek therapy.

    There's no need.  I just have to stop throwing this industry dollars it doesn't deserve.

    Besides, what would a therapist say?  "If your experience with MMOs makes you mad, don't play MMOs."

    Yes, I have a serious loss issue.  It was caused by this industry you defend.  Is it my problem?  It sure isn't yours.  For all I know, you might be a person who profits off problems like this.

    Which is all the more reason why, if people like me have problems with how this business operates, we ought not engage in this business.  If we have problems with the loss, we shouldn't expose ourselves to the loss.

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  • jdlamson75jdlamson75 Jacksonville, FLPosts: 985Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cration
    Dude. Its just a game.

    Member since '08, 1st post ever on the account, and man, I couldn't have put it more succinctly myself.

     

    Brilliant, sir, and well played.

     

    I love gaming, but I don't think I've had had the sort of emotional attachment to a character or game as Mr. Barreiro is exhibiting.  Bacon, yes.  Beer, most assuredly.  Games?  Nah.

  • freegamesfreegames san gabriel, CAPosts: 158Member
    The game makes the game, but having friendly players helps.
  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    According to some posters on this thread, you should never get power cause the moment you un subscribe, you lose power. Which is a weird logic that makes no sense but w/e.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Beatnik59

    There's no need.  I just have to stop throwing this industry dollars it doesn't deserve.

    Besides, what would a therapist say?  "If your experience with MMOs makes you mad, don't play MMOs."

    Yes, I have a serious loss issue.  It was caused by this industry you defend.  Is it my problem?  It sure isn't yours.  For all I know, you might be a person who profits off problems like this.

    Which is all the more reason why, if people like me have problems with how this business operates, we ought not engage in this business.  If we have problems with the loss, we shouldn't expose ourselves to the loss.

    No, because you are still missing the point. You are the one ascribing these issues to them. They are not the ones creating them. Stop blaming the industry for your own shortcomings. I mean look at how you are treating this entire subject? Its called grief counseling. They generally do not tell you to stop doing an activity. Grief counselers often help one deal with divorce for example. They are not going to tell you never to get married again. Besides the fact its unhealthy, that would be quite insane. Seriously guy, seek some help as you most certainly have a problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grief_counseling

  • sunshadow21sunshadow21 Omaha, NEPosts: 354Member
    While I certainly don't think that deep sorrow is required, from what I have seen of several high profile closures, I can certainly understand some people's unwillingness to continue to participate in the genre. Many of the companies involved did little to encourage people to simply find new games, and much to discourage them to do so.
  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILPosts: 2,237Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by Beatnik59

    There's no need.  I just have to stop throwing this industry dollars it doesn't deserve.

    Besides, what would a therapist say?  "If your experience with MMOs makes you mad, don't play MMOs."

    Yes, I have a serious loss issue.  It was caused by this industry you defend.  Is it my problem?  It sure isn't yours.  For all I know, you might be a person who profits off problems like this.

    Which is all the more reason why, if people like me have problems with how this business operates, we ought not engage in this business.  If we have problems with the loss, we shouldn't expose ourselves to the loss.

    No, because you are still missing the point. You are the one ascribing these issues to them. They are not the ones creating them. Stop blaming the industry for your own shortcomings. I mean look at how you are treating this entire subject? Its called grief counseling. They generally do not tell you to stop doing an activity. Grief counselers often help one deal with divorce for example. They are not going to tell you never to get married again. Besides the fact its unhealthy, that would be quite insane. Seriously guy, seek some help as you most certainly have a problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grief_counseling

    Frankly, if any grief counsellor would tell me, after getting burned on an MMO, to go back into MMOs, I'd fire him.

    You are way, waaay too invested in this issue.  I mean seriously, what's your beef?  You can't force me to buy or pay for this business model, so it ain't like you are doing any good for me.

    Say I am suffering grief.  Isn't it, in the greater scheme of things, a good thing that people like me find better things to do than MMOs, if I'm this worked up about it?  I mean seriously.  That's like telling a compulsive gambler that he ought to go back in the casino...which is not that far off the mark with how a lot of people around here seem.

    If you like having the things you buy taken away from you, have at it hoss.  If you want the things you like taken offline, go right ahead.

    But I'm not satisfied with that.  Maybe you don't think you deserve better, but I deserve better.  I think you deserve better.  I don't see the point in throwing so much time and money into something if it is just going to disappear because a producer wants to shut things down.  I've been down that road before...several times.  It sucks, and I'm not going back there.

    Some (probably most people that are outside the "MMORPG echo chamber" ) would call that smart.  Because you've got to think that things are only going to get worse with the service cancelations and the fragility of the model, with the number of games, and P2P and all.

    I just don't think it's right, nor fair, to take away someone's fun for reasons wholly unrelated to his willingness or ability to pay.  And there isn't a thing you can say or do to make me think it isn't right for me to think that way, and act on it.

     

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Beatnik59

    Frankly, if any grief counsellor would tell me, after getting burned on an MMO, to go back into MMOs, I'd fire him.

    You are way, waaay too invested in this issue.  I mean seriously, what's your beef?  You can't force me to buy or pay for this business model, so it ain't like you are doing any good for me.

    Say I am suffering grief.  Isn't it, in the greater scheme of things, a good thing that people like me find better things to do than MMOs, if I'm this worked up about it?  I mean seriously.  That's like telling a compulsive gambler that he ought to go back in the casino...which is not that far off the mark with how a lot of people around here seem.

    If you like having the things you buy taken away from you, have at it hoss.  If you want the things you like taken offline, go right ahead.

    But I'm not satisfied with that.  Maybe you don't think you deserve better, but I deserve better.  I think you deserve better.  I don't see the point in throwing so much time and money into something if it is just going to disappear because a producer wants to shut things down.  I've been down that road before...several times.  It sucks, and I'm not going back there.

    Some (probably most people that are outside the "MMORPG echo chamber" ) would call that smart.  Because you've got to think that things are only going to get worse with the service cancelations and the fragility of the model, with the number of games, and P2P and all.

    I just don't think it's right, nor fair, to take away someone's fun for reasons wholly unrelated to his willingness or ability to pay.  And there isn't a thing you can say or do to make me think it isn't right for me to think that way, and act on it.

    That is right, you would most certainly deserve better if someone just turned off the servers one day and said "so long suckers!" and took your money and ran. Problem being that is not what has happened. In fact they have even returned money (within reason) and given 30+ days advance notice. The problem being you still think something ways taken from you that was not paid for.
     

    You know, you sit there and you talk of loss and all that, and how they should have to remain open, and how "normal" people find it normal for you to be mmo shy now. I have had 2 rather fantastic resturants close nearby. One because the couple just did not want to continue to operate it (which really is sad, made the best clam chowder I have ever eaten) and a chinese place that made some fantastic General Tso's chicken. Is it reasonable for me to stop going out to eat?

    And yes, I am caught up on it for the very "echo chamber" bs you keep toting. The more you keep on with it and people see no opposition and see it as having merit the more it gets spread. This is not healthy either for the industry nor for you, no matter how much in denial you may be. You need some help. If I could organize and intervention for you I would as you have clearly been misusing the gaming space anyway.

  • ElderRatElderRat Syracuse, NYPosts: 899Member

    I have lived through the closing of several games.  Shadowbane hit the hardest. It was a game,  I moved on though because becoming angry would not reopen the game. Now, i have anger issues and playing games helps me with those. I find killing 100 boars or space aliens or whatever is relaxing and will not end me up in jail.  I can do it on a mmo or a single player game.  I do not have to have any specific game to do it.  

    Having said that, I do get attached to games and kind of have a love/hate affair with them. EQ2, EVE, LOTRO are 3 I have played, quit, and then played again several times.  If/when they are eventually discontinued it will be sad. It will not destroy my faith in mmo's... mostly because the f2p scheme has done that quite nicely, but in the long run they are only games. I was a D&D DM. I had boxes of maps and notes on a world I created. We had great fun playing it. Then a friend came over and told my GF at the time that I said he could borrow it and he sold it for 2 bags of weed.  I made

    a new world. When a game ends I find a new game - mmo or single player. I have a couple of single player games I have played for years that work when I am bored with mmos.  

    I am 61, I know life is transitory, I have friends who have been "discontinued" and I miss them far more than any game I have played. End of rant, and as always this is just MY opinion.

     

     

    Currently bored with MMO's.

  • irfan799irfan799 mumbaiPosts: 8Member

    Thanks for this post. very selected few have responded correctly.

    ever since my games have closed down few years back, i have never found the same attachment in any other game. the sense of achievement from the dedication is all lost and meaningless. yes, its painful and one that will always remind me of the good times.

    also makes me think, it could be that phase when mmo was still new to all the gamers who had been playing single player games a lot. and this wave of mmo boom caught the fancy of many and hung on with great attachment to their games. i dont think the gamers of this generation would understand so easily.. hence the trolls, and "just a gamer's"  

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILPosts: 2,237Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Livnthedream

    And yes, I am caught up on it for the very "echo chamber" bs you keep toting. The more you keep on with it and people see no opposition and see it as having merit the more it gets spread. This is not healthy either for the industry nor for you, no matter how much in denial you may be. You need some help. If I could organize and intervention for you I would as you have clearly been misusing the gaming space anyway.

    The help I need--and the help everyone needs who is growing attached to virtual worlds--is the truth.  And the truth is this: the industry doesn't care if it hurts you or not.  In fact, when you grieve for an MMO, it's a sign that they did their job well.  They want to get you so attached to these things that you feel a deep, emotional connection.  Because when they do that, you'll fork over dollars, time and PR to their money-making endevors.

    And people also ought to know that the moment they grow tired of our fun, they will take our fun away without hesitation.  At that point, all we become are liabilities for them that ought to be discarded, or recycled into a new virtual world where they can start you in on the ground level.  And when they close down one world, they'll hype you on another, feeding it money, time and emotional attachment until they pull that rug out from under us.

    But for those of us that are feeling loss at what we had, the absolute worst thing we can do is to go into "grief counseling" like it was our pet Fido's time to go.  Unlike Fido, MMOs are machines.  Someone made the choice to take the things we buy away from us.  And they did so because they got what they wanted from us and are ready to discard us.

    Now if I get you correctly, Livinthedream, If a producer took a person's ball away and went home, and the person feels a sense of alienation and loss, they ought to pick up another MMO.  I guess a person can do that, and get hurt again, and start over again, and get hurt again ad naueum.  It certainly is better for the industry when people do that.  A person would have to start from square one and buy all his upgrades, costumes and emotes from scratch again, which adds up to a ton of $$$.

    That's good for the industry.  But is that good for us?  The ones who get emotionally thrown around like a rag doll because of virtual worlds?

    I'm suggesting something different.  I'm done having my emotions manipulated by this industry.  I'm taking my control back.  I'm understanding the mechanisms that are used to create the emotional attachment.  And I'm demanding better.  If they don't want to give me better, that's their choice.  But I'm done getting into yet another MMO, hoping that the next one will last, only to find out a few years down the line that it's closing down, and I wasn't done with it yet.

    Producers don't care if we feel loss.  Producers don't care what we want.  They are in this for themselves, and if they cause people emotional distress, pain and loss, that's just the price of business..."nothing personal" as they would say.

    So, I'm making the choice not to buy into the hype of these new MMOs, or throw money or time at the old MMOs.  It's "nothing personal," just a personal decision that I have every right to make.

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Beatnik59

    And people also ought to know that the moment they grow tired of our fun, they will take our fun away without hesitation.  At that point, all we become are liabilities for them that ought to be discarded, or recycled into a new virtual world where they can start you in on the ground level.  And when they close down one world, they'll hype you on another, feeding it money, time and emotional attachment until they pull that rug out from under us.

    Why do you continue to attribute their actions to malice?

    But for those of us that are feeling loss at what we had, the absolute worst thing we can do is to go into "grief counseling" like it was our pet Fido's time to go.  Unlike Fido, MMOs are machines.  Someone made the choice to take the things we buy away from us.  And they did so because they got what they wanted from us and are ready to discard us.

    So just like girlfriend that dumped you for the jock in highschool you will live out your days in your parents basement, forever growing the perfect neckbeard. For the pain is just too unbearable in society.

    Now if I get you correctly, Livinthedream, If a producer took a person's ball away and went home, and the person feels a sense of alienation and loss, they ought to pick up another MMO.  I guess a person can do that, and get hurt again, and start over again, and get hurt again ad naueum.  It certainly is better for the industry when people do that.  A person would have to start from square one and buy all his upgrades, costumes and emotes from scratch again, which adds up to a ton of $$$.

    No, you should learn how to play the games correctly. They are just games, not loved ones. Treating them as such is where your problem lies.

    I'm suggesting something different.  I'm done having my emotions manipulated by this industry.  I'm taking my control back.  I'm understanding the mechanisms that are used to create the emotional attachment.  And I'm demanding better.  If they don't want to give me better, that's their choice.  But I'm done getting into yet another MMO, hoping that the next one will last, only to find out a few years down the line that it's closing down, and I wasn't done with it yet.

    That is not demanding better, that is being unreasonable. You want to turn a service into a tangible thing which will never happen. Your bank, your grocery store, your barbershop, your favorite restaurant. None of them are permanent. They are all services. Asking them to be permanent is not reasonable. Them closing up shop is not out of malice or spite. Its generally something out of their control.

    Producers don't care if we feel loss.  Producers don't care what we want.  They are in this for themselves, and if they cause people emotional distress, pain and loss, that's just the price of business..."nothing personal" as they would say.

    That is generally demonstrably false. Producers want to make a game that wants to be played. Producers are rarely the ones making the call. Even if they were though, "you" is not enough. there needs to be more than you. As CoH rather clearly showed. When you do not make enough money you get shut down, just like every other service industry.

    So, I'm making the choice not to buy into the hype of these new MMOs, or throw money or time at the old MMOs.  It's "nothing personal," just a personal decision that I have every right to make.

    Bullshit. You are rather clearly making it personal. All for the sake of being an unreasonable shit who wants Cocoa Puffs and mommy is telling you they cannot afford it. Get over yourself.

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILPosts: 2,237Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Livnthedream

    Why do you continue to attribute their actions to malice?

    I'm pretty sure customers aren't important enough for them to harbor malicious thoughts.  They didn't want us to suffer.  They just weren't concerned if we suffered.

    So just like girlfriend that dumped you for the jock in highschool you will live out your days in your parents basement, forever growing the perfect neckbeard. For the pain is just too unbearable in society.

    Sucks, don't it?  Perhaps you ought to shave, get out of the basement, and live a little instead of sitting around trolling what is, in the greater scheme of things, a real stupid thing to get worked up about.

    No, you should learn how to play the games correctly. They are just games, not loved ones. Treating them as such is where your problem lies.

    This from the guy who wants me to go to "grief counseling" to accept the loss of my MMO?  Grief is for Fido.  Anger is for getting ripped off, and not making the same mistakes.  Besides, I'm sure your house isn't a "loved one" like your mother, but it doesn't mean you have to go "thank you sir, may I have another?" when the DEA busts it all up and says "sorry."

    That is not demanding better, that is being unreasonable. You want to turn a service into a tangible thing which will never happen. Your bank, your grocery store, your barbershop, your favorite restaurant. None of them are permanent. They are all services. Asking them to be permanent is not reasonable. Them closing up shop is not out of malice or spite. Its generally something out of their control.

    I don't think it's all that unreasonable.  After all, they turned the video game from a commodity to a service in the first place.  The game itself can be commoditized.  The add ons can too, as seen in any PS3 store.  They can create a stand alone client, they can license--heck, even a contingency plan to keep the game up would be enough.

    But the way things stand now, the service model this industry adopted is just too fragile.  I mean, you can reasonably estimate with a high degree of certainty what the above businesses (barber shop, grocery, restaurant) can gross, what their clientele consists of, etc.  They aren't so dependent on fickle things like fashion, public opinion or buzz to keep them afloat.  That's because the demographics and the needs are simple, "from mediocristan," if we were to quote Taleb.

    MMORPG services, by contrast, are highly unpredictable by comparison.  They can last 30 years or 30 days, and there's really no way to tell what you've got until after you have it.  There are so many factors that may cause a service like this to be forced to shut down, some related to the revenue the game generates and others not.  In other words, there's no way for them to predict...let alone the end-user to predict...what the longevity of the purchases will be.

    They don't need to turn these "services" into "tangible things," but if they want to remain services, they should at least work out a strategy by which they can become more robust.  A customer shouldn't be left guessing whether they'll enjoy their $50 purchase for 30 days or 30 years.

    That is generally demonstrably false. Producers want to make a game that wants to be played. Producers are rarely the ones making the call. Even if they were though, "you" is not enough. there needs to be more than you. As CoH rather clearly showed. When you do not make enough money you get shut down, just like every other service industry.

    The only thing that CoH "clearly" showed is how fragile these games are.  Because the game was actually making more money than it cost to operate.  The problem was that NCSoft wanted to close down Paragon Studios in its restructuring scheme.  The customers were, sadly, collateral damage.

    Of course "I" am not enough to keep one of these games going...and that's the problem.  Because I can only do what I can do.  I can't be held responsible for the publisher's quarterly profit targets, and yet when they aren't met, my purchases are taken from me.  Heck, even when I--and several other subscribers--pay our way, it might not be enough.  They might not like the profit we give them, and they might want to cut their losses.  Or we might be making them a nice sum, but they want to "change direction" and become something else.

    In short, there are all of the same risks associated with this form of computer entertainment (hardware malfunction, etc), plus the risks of an entire production and publishing company that the consumer has to bear, including the fickle nature of MMO management.  And that's just a whole lot more fragile than, say, a single player game or a peer-to-peer multiplayer game.

    You are rather clearly making it personal. All for the sake of being an unreasonable shit who wants Cocoa Puffs and mommy is telling you they cannot afford it. Get over yourself.

    What if I am making it personal?  I've been playing these games for about ten years now.  I'm not some person who hasn't looked at their model, didn't give this industry a chance, and wasn't willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.  I'm just sick of getting screwed.

    You're just mad that I'm not buying into the hype of these games anymore, and you are mad that I'm taking issue with your business model.  Maybe because you have a stake in this industry somehow, and someone like me is bad for business.

    But I'm not here for the business.  I'm here for the people who feel regret, anger and sorrow when their games, online friends, characters and purchases get taken from them.

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

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