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Off-Hours sieging: Part of the game or just lame?

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  • linksalulinksalu Par, NJPosts: 38Member
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by linksalu

    but I couldn't be on for the actual siege at 3am...sorry, I have work.

    at 3am ? unlikely...

     

    since you knew 20 hours in advance, you could employ a combo between the "afternoon nap" and the "alarm clock".

     

    it would've worked fine and you could've done the siege and be at work on time if you really cared about your guild/clan/whatever.

     

    as assholish as this sounds, I run into your problem all the time in Eve. And I don't blame the game for it. I know it's my life choices that are getting in the way. If you can't accept this, perhaps Lego Universe might provide a more appropriate sandbox experience.

     

     

     

    I mean, I have work the next day. Not at 3am. At 7am, and you know, it involves a commute. And like I said, I'm not 15. I accept that it's a part of the game, but I'm also honest enough to know that it's lame and suggest that maybe AV can figure out something fairer. 

    It's funny how you immediately start insulting me for no reason, though. Not compromising my RL means I should go play with teddy bear, okay.  Go clap yourself on the back for that nice burn and put a little more Proactive on your face.

    Originally posted by geldonyetich

    Wow, I knew you guys were pretty desparate to slam the game, but hacking the web page of a major game site so a user review masquarades as an official one? Pretty impressive.

    [Edit: no, after seeing there's an actual video associated with it, I guess not, despite the wierd way GameSpot distributes its content making it looks like the reviewer didn't even write this.]

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by linksalu

     

    I mean, I have work the next day. Not at 3am. At 7am, and you know, it involves a commute. And like I said, I'm not 15. I accept that it's a part of the game, but I'm also honest enough to know that it's lame and suggest that maybe AV can figure out something fairer. 

    It's funny how you immediately start insulting me for no reason, though. Not compromising my RL means I should go play with teddy bear, okay.  Go clap yourself on the back for that nice burn and put a little more Proactive on your face.

    to the first paragraph: a better suggestion was not yet offered. Right now the best answer is to either do what it takes or to recruit players from same timezone as your enemies and have your city populated around the clock. Obviously THEY can manage it. Why can't your team ? you mentioned yourself, but what about all your allies and all the enemies ? why is your problem only on your side of the siege ?

     

    To the second paragraph: my reason is your attitude. Your agument is a very wordy equivalent "I'm entitled to have the enemy team siege only when I want them to", regardless of anything.

     

    finally...if you start work at 7, and it's now 10.30am in East, 7.30am in West, and a Friday...and you're actively involved on forums...dot dot dot.

    image

  • linksalulinksalu Par, NJPosts: 38Member
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by linksalu

     

    I mean, I have work the next day. Not at 3am. At 7am, and you know, it involves a commute. And like I said, I'm not 15. I accept that it's a part of the game, but I'm also honest enough to know that it's lame and suggest that maybe AV can figure out something fairer. 

    It's funny how you immediately start insulting me for no reason, though. Not compromising my RL means I should go play with teddy bear, okay.  Go clap yourself on the back for that nice burn and put a little more Proactive on your face.

    to the first paragraph: a better suggestion was not yet offered. Right now the best answer is to either do what it takes or to recruit players from same timezone as your enemies and have your city populated around the clock. Obviously THEY can manage it. Why can't your team ? you mentioned yourself, but what about all your allies and all the enemies ? why is your problem only on your side of the siege ?

     

    To the second paragraph: my reason is your attitude. Your agument is a very wordy equivalent "I'm entitled to have the enemy team siege only when I want them to", regardless of anything.

     

    finally...if you start work at 7, and it's now 10.30am in East, 7.30am in West, and a Friday...and you're actively involved on forums...dot dot dot.

    I don't get the point you're trying to make with the work thing. I'm here for quite a number of hours and can access the internet just fine.

    As for the main thing, this is what I said in my first post: "I don't know what the alternative/solution should be, but I'm hoping AV can figure out some kind of automated back-and-forth between the leaders of the two clans." So no, that doesn't mean "I'm entitled to have the enemy team siege only when I want them to". In fact, that's what the CURRENT system is if you're the attacker. I'm hoping AV can find a middle ground. This is really not the craziest idea in the world, so I don't see the problem here.

    Originally posted by geldonyetich

    Wow, I knew you guys were pretty desparate to slam the game, but hacking the web page of a major game site so a user review masquarades as an official one? Pretty impressive.

    [Edit: no, after seeing there's an actual video associated with it, I guess not, despite the wierd way GameSpot distributes its content making it looks like the reviewer didn't even write this.]

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLPosts: 4,503Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    finally...if you start work at 7, and it's now 10.30am in East, 7.30am in West, and a Friday...and you're actively involved on forums...dot dot dot.

     

    Some people have big boy jobs and can put their feet up on their desk, drink a cup of coffee and check a website to 2 on their phone or laptop.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAPosts: 5,211Member Uncommon
    Ultimately it's not  a question of realism or fairness. It's a factor of population. People put considerable time and effort into cities and they want a reasonable chance of defending them. Having lost a city under conditions they consider unsporting they often quit. The standard reply is a game is better off without them but no PvP game is better off with a sparse population.  

    "Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon

    it's an interesting problem because generally a "middle ground" in these cases actually dissatisfies both sides.

     

    the options I can think of involve...

     

    1) rng. siege timer arbitrary anywhere from 12 to 36 hours in future.

    2) a 6 hours slider that the attacker team pulls from the initial target time, and then the defending team pulls, with another 6 hours +/- from where the attackers set it. so potentially giving a maximum of 12 hours range. or maybe 8 hours giving a range of 16...

    3) global servers. I don't understand why the server isn't global anyway. persistent worlds need persistent playerbases. EvE can do it with 500,000 players all in one server. couldn't darkfall make all servers global if they needed more than one ?

    4) curfew. daily shutdown/maintenance between hours of X and Y. (I don't like this one).

    image

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon

    At the end of the day in Darkfall 1 we had siege protection shards that pushed the time of the siege back by a good few hours.. This was the perfect solution.. sure it cost gold but at least the defender could have some say in when the siege happened.

    They need to bring this back in... but saying that late night sieges hardly ever happened and if it did clans usually hired some mercs to help instead job done.

     

    its part of the game adapt..

  • linksalulinksalu Par, NJPosts: 38Member
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    Ultimately it's not  a question of realism or fairness. It's a factor of population. People put considerable time and effort into cities and they want a reasonable chance of defending them. Having lost a city under conditions they consider unsporting they often quit. The standard reply is a game is better off without them but no PvP game is better off with a sparse population.  

    I think this about sums it up. And going off Robo's suggestion, I think a slider is a good suggestion, but nothing excessive. 3 hours sounds pretty even. Let the attacker give the time they want to do, ie 3 am, and the defender can shift it to midnight if they want. 9 PM sieges can turn to 6 PM or midnight or stay at 9 PM, etc. A system like that would lend itself to more 'prime-time' sieges, imo.

    Originally posted by geldonyetich

    Wow, I knew you guys were pretty desparate to slam the game, but hacking the web page of a major game site so a user review masquarades as an official one? Pretty impressive.

    [Edit: no, after seeing there's an actual video associated with it, I guess not, despite the wierd way GameSpot distributes its content making it looks like the reviewer didn't even write this.]

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by linksalu
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    Ultimately it's not  a question of realism or fairness. It's a factor of population. People put considerable time and effort into cities and they want a reasonable chance of defending them. Having lost a city under conditions they consider unsporting they often quit. The standard reply is a game is better off without them but no PvP game is better off with a sparse population.  

    I think this about sums it up. And going off Robo's suggestion, I think a slider is a good suggestion, but nothing excessive. 3 hours sounds pretty even. Let the attacker give the time they want to do, ie 3 am, and the defender can shift it to midnight if they want. 9 PM sieges can turn to 6 PM or midnight or stay at 9 PM, etc. A system like that would lend itself to more 'prime-time' sieges, imo.

    -facepalms- in EVE people, goonswarm chief among them, used that sort of system to troll people pretty hard during old sov system war days... in EVE a pos has a limited amount of reinforcement fuel, a pos hits reinforced mode after its HP drops to a certain point, at which point it enters reinforced mode and starts chugging its fuel, you can tweak the fuel amounts to have x number of hours up to a maximum of y and goonswarm would use spies to determine their adversaries standard fuel levels and use mercs (if need be) to reinforce the POSes such that they came out of reinforcement mode in the worse possible time for their enemies... the same will happen here I can vouch for that personally ergo people should buck up, make friends with people around the world so they don't sleep on the job the next day.

    image
  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by linksalu
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    Ultimately it's not  a question of realism or fairness. It's a factor of population. People put considerable time and effort into cities and they want a reasonable chance of defending them. Having lost a city under conditions they consider unsporting they often quit. The standard reply is a game is better off without them but no PvP game is better off with a sparse population.  

    I think this about sums it up. And going off Robo's suggestion, I think a slider is a good suggestion, but nothing excessive. 3 hours sounds pretty even. Let the attacker give the time they want to do, ie 3 am, and the defender can shift it to midnight if they want. 9 PM sieges can turn to 6 PM or midnight or stay at 9 PM, etc. A system like that would lend itself to more 'prime-time' sieges, imo.

    and if the enemy team sets it at 6am where do you go now ? 3am or 9 am ?

     

    that's why I wanted a larger, 6 or 8, scale.

     

    edit: problem with thinking too hard about these things and looking too much into 'fair and balanced' eventually leads to "let's make an instanced battleground". and while fair and balanced, I don't think sandbox players want that approach.

    image

  • linksalulinksalu Par, NJPosts: 38Member
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by linksalu
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    Ultimately it's not  a question of realism or fairness. It's a factor of population. People put considerable time and effort into cities and they want a reasonable chance of defending them. Having lost a city under conditions they consider unsporting they often quit. The standard reply is a game is better off without them but no PvP game is better off with a sparse population.  

    I think this about sums it up. And going off Robo's suggestion, I think a slider is a good suggestion, but nothing excessive. 3 hours sounds pretty even. Let the attacker give the time they want to do, ie 3 am, and the defender can shift it to midnight if they want. 9 PM sieges can turn to 6 PM or midnight or stay at 9 PM, etc. A system like that would lend itself to more 'prime-time' sieges, imo.

    -facepalms- in EVE people, goonswarm chief among them, used that sort of system to troll people pretty hard during old sov system war days... in EVE a pos has a limited amount of reinforcement fuel, a pos hits reinforced mode after its HP drops to a certain point, at which point it enters reinforced mode and starts chugging its fuel, you can tweak the fuel amounts to have x number of hours up to a maximum of y and goonswarm would use spies to determine their adversaries standard fuel levels and use mercs (if need be) to reinforce the POSes such that they came out of reinforcement mode in the worse possible time for their enemies... the same will happen here I can vouch for that personally ergo people should buck up, make friends with people around the world so they don't sleep on the job the next day.

    Oh, I wasn't saying that it should be a secret. There should be a window that the defender gets to adjust the time, and after that window, it's locked in. Everyone could see what time the siege was going to be. I don't think that part should change. Anyway, just a suggestion! Maybe there's a better idea out there.

    Originally posted by geldonyetich

    Wow, I knew you guys were pretty desparate to slam the game, but hacking the web page of a major game site so a user review masquarades as an official one? Pretty impressive.

    [Edit: no, after seeing there's an actual video associated with it, I guess not, despite the wierd way GameSpot distributes its content making it looks like the reviewer didn't even write this.]

  • BrownAleBrownAle fantasyland, MEPosts: 399Member
    Originally posted by Zooce
    If AV wants to reach a wider audience I suggest they limit siege vulnerability windows during the work-week.

     

    This makes no sense.  Whos time zone are you going to favor in limiting when people siege?  This will widen the games audience?  You do realize that there is a huge time zone difference on each server right?  Aussies have to play on the NA server for example.

     

     

    Naive comment.

     

     

    Someone sieges you at 3am on the weekday either hire an EU/OZ clan to defend (they exist on the NA server btw) or just take it back the next day.  Sieges are a big part of the game, if you are trying to avoid them then your doing DF wrong.

     

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLPosts: 4,503Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BrownAle

    Originally posted by Zooce
    If AV wants to reach a wider audience I suggest they limit siege vulnerability windows during the work-week.

     

    This makes no sense.  Whos time zone are you going to favor in limiting when people siege?  This will widen the games audience?  You do realize that there is a huge time zone difference on each server right?  Aussies have to play on the NA server for example.

     

     

    Naive comment.

     

     

    Someone sieges you at 3am on the weekday either hire an EU/OZ clan to defend (they exist on the NA server btw) or just take it back the next day.  Sieges are a big part of the game, if you are trying to avoid them then your doing DF wrong.

     

     

    Its an NA server so those are the times the game should accommodate. The point is not to have someone ELSE fight for you but to do it yourself. Also you cannot "siege it back the next day" due to timers and lockout mechanics already in game.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • LahuzerLahuzer BorPosts: 666Member Uncommon
    As irritating/lame as I think it is to get sieged at night, I think it belongs to a sandbox that it can happen at any time. So to me it's part of the game and should be as it is.
  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by Slapshot1188
    Originally posted by BrownAle
    Originally posted by Zooce
    If AV wants to reach a wider audience I suggest they limit siege vulnerability windows during the work-week.

     

    This makes no sense.  Whos time zone are you going to favor in limiting when people siege?  This will widen the games audience?  You do realize that there is a huge time zone difference on each server right?  Aussies have to play on the NA server for example.0

     

     

    Naive comment.

     

     

    Someone sieges you at 3am on the weekday either hire an EU/OZ clan to defend (they exist on the NA server btw) or just take it back the next day.  Sieges are a big part of the game, if you are trying to avoid them then your doing DF wrong.

     

     

    Its an NA server so those are the times the game should accommodate. The point is not to have someone ELSE fight for you but to do it yourself. Also you cannot "siege it back the next day" due to timers and lockout mechanics already in game.

    If the NA server is catering to a global audience then you're gonna get UTC +0 and by the sound of things the server is multinational not only NA due to a myriad of reasons (some of which aren't "EU TURDS COMING TO MAH SERVER AND TAKIN MAH JOB!!" but down to better pings and better playability, if the people who aren't from NA outnumber those who are then the server should cater to them, not you).

    image
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLPosts: 4,503Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by Slapshot1188
    Originally posted by BrownAle
    Originally posted by Zooce
    If AV wants to reach a wider audience I suggest they limit siege vulnerability windows during the work-week.

     

    This makes no sense.  Whos time zone are you going to favor in limiting when people siege?  This will widen the games audience?  You do realize that there is a huge time zone difference on each server right?  Aussies have to play on the NA server for example.0

     

     

    Naive comment.

     

     

    Someone sieges you at 3am on the weekday either hire an EU/OZ clan to defend (they exist on the NA server btw) or just take it back the next day.  Sieges are a big part of the game, if you are trying to avoid them then your doing DF wrong.

     

     

    Its an NA server so those are the times the game should accommodate. The point is not to have someone ELSE fight for you but to do it yourself. Also you cannot "siege it back the next day" due to timers and lockout mechanics already in game.

    If the NA server is catering to a global audience then you're gonna get UTC +0 and by the sound of things the server is multinational not only NA due to a myriad of reasons (some of which aren't "EU TURDS COMING TO MAH SERVER AND TAKIN MAH JOB!!" but down to better pings and better playability, if the people who aren't from NA outnumber those who are then the server should cater to them, not you).

    It's called the NORTH AMERICA server.  If the people who aren't from NA outnumber those who are... then the server should be somewhere else or there should be a new server for them.  That is not even remotely the situation though.

     

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • sacredfoolsacredfool prague, TXPosts: 760Member Uncommon

    Give the siege stone some HP. Allow the defenders to make "counter attacks" every 4 hours that can lower it's HP by 34%. You need 3 successful counter attacks to destroy the siege stone.

     

    I totally did not steal the idea from EVE.


    Originally posted by nethaniah

    Seriously Farmville? Yeah I think it's great. In a World where half our population is dying of hunger the more fortunate half is spending their time harvesting food that doesn't exist.


  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLPosts: 4,503Member Uncommon

    Woohoo.. looks like Av is going to implement the idea I mentioned earlier in the thread to use Dominion points to help prevent off-hour sieges.

     

    From the May 10th update:

    More uses for Dominion / Increasing Holding importance: Player consensus is that there are not enough ways to spend Dominion and we agree. We will introduce ways to consume Dominion on Clan City upkeep, Guard tower special options and effects, holding siege protection timers, and maybe even on clan member boosters.
     

     

    NICE!

     

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Slapshot1188
    Woohoo.. looks like Av is going to implement the idea I mentioned earlier in the thread to use Dominion points to help prevent off-hour sieges. From the May 10th update:More uses for Dominion / Increasing Holding importance: Player consensus is that there are not enough ways to spend Dominion and we agree. We will introduce ways to consume Dominion on Clan City upkeep, Guard tower special options and effects, holding siege protection timers, and maybe even on clan member boosters.  NICE! 

    I like this solution better than some of the others because it allows the players to build up a defense that works when players are offline, rather than just arbitrarily making keeps safe.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLPosts: 4,503Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Slapshot1188
    Woohoo.. looks like Av is going to implement the idea I mentioned earlier in the thread to use Dominion points to help prevent off-hour sieges.

     

     

    From the May 10th update:

    More uses for Dominion / Increasing Holding importance: Player consensus is that there are not enough ways to spend Dominion and we agree. We will introduce ways to consume Dominion on Clan City upkeep, Guard tower special options and effects, holding siege protection timers, and maybe even on clan member boosters. 

     

    NICE!

     

     



    I like this solution better than some of the others because it allows the players to build up a defense that works when players are offline, rather than just arbitrarily making keeps safe.

     

    It also requires that Clans WORK for their protection.  They will need the dominion points for city upkeep, guard towers and siege timers.   Not thrilled with the clan member booster idea, but other than that I really love the update as it will settle the whole off-hours siege issues in a fair and reasonable way.

     

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,991Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by linksalu

    but I couldn't be on for the actual siege at 3am...sorry, I have work.

    at 3am ? unlikely...

     

    since you knew 20 hours in advance, you could employ a combo between the "afternoon nap" and the "alarm clock".

     

    it would've worked fine and you could've done the siege and be at work on time if you really cared about your guild/clan/whatever.

     

    as assholish as this sounds, I run into your problem all the time in Eve. And I don't blame the game for it. I know it's my life choices that are getting in the way. If you can't accept this, perhaps Lego Universe might provide a more appropriate sandbox experience.

    Er, yeah, not sure those real life choices are really choices, have to work, have to sleep, have to keep the family happy, but like you said, that's not the game's fault, just the way it is.

    Which is why though I love EVE and played it almost 4 years I'm pretty much done unless I win the lottery or retire.  (will it still be around in 9 years, maybe?)

    In EVE you solve the problem by forming multi-region alliances so there is always someone to defend, but I always hated having to log (or be at work) when the best battles were on the schedule.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • NevulusNevulus Miami Beach, FLPosts: 1,288Member Uncommon
    Have you been to the EU server? It's a ghost town. I know a lot of oceanic players who playing on NA server, as well as Europeans who play on NA server.
  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by linksalu

    but I couldn't be on for the actual siege at 3am...sorry, I have work.

    at 3am ? unlikely...

     

    since you knew 20 hours in advance, you could employ a combo between the "afternoon nap" and the "alarm clock".

     

    it would've worked fine and you could've done the siege and be at work on time if you really cared about your guild/clan/whatever.

     

    as assholish as this sounds, I run into your problem all the time in Eve. And I don't blame the game for it. I know it's my life choices that are getting in the way. If you can't accept this, perhaps Lego Universe might provide a more appropriate sandbox experience.

    Er, yeah, not sure those real life choices are really choices, have to work, have to sleep, have to keep the family happy, but like you said, that's not the game's fault, just the way it is.

    :) at one point, maybe 20 years ago maybe last week...you chose. work first shift ? work second shift ? third ? split shift ? from home ? alternating shifts ?

     

     

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