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MMORPG's released in 1997 and 2003 far more advanced than anything afterwards?

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  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,609Member Uncommon

    Yes. I'm going to ignore all the warts of the early MMOs and ignore all the advancements in newer ones. Then I will close my eyes, plug my ears and say "neener, neener, neener...pure truth!" until i win.

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Yes. I'm going to ignore all the warts of the early MMOs and ignore all the advancements in newer ones. Then I will close my eyes, plug my ears and say "neener, neener, neener...pure truth!" until i win.

    You could list all the advancements in newer MMOs and put us old folks in our place. 

  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Edmonton, ABPosts: 793Member
    Not more advanced, more adventurous and feature-rich. Those games were meant to test the boundaries. The current games simply live somewhere within those tested boundaries. For better? For worse? Depends on the player. I don't play many MMOs these days simply because I am bored with the experiences they offer, although I am still hopeful for some of the upcoming titles.

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,609Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Yes. I'm going to ignore all the warts of the early MMOs and ignore all the advancements in newer ones. Then I will close my eyes, plug my ears and say "neener, neener, neener...pure truth!" until i win.

    You could list all the advancements in newer MMOs and put us old folks in our place. 

    Why on earth would I give you the opportunity to dissect and spin anything I say? I was there back then... I am here now.... The improvements are legion... They're self evident. But I learned in debating club many decades ago that any topic under the sun is debatable.

    i'm sure if I were to say something as obvious as "graphics are better" you would respond with "yeah but, that's all they spend their development time on which makes it all worse in the end"." And then when I say "corpse runs suck" you would say "yeah but death penalty these days are meaningless"

    So why bother?

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Yes. I'm going to ignore all the warts of the early MMOs and ignore all the advancements in newer ones. Then I will close my eyes, plug my ears and say "neener, neener, neener...pure truth!" until i win.

    You could list all the advancements in newer MMOs and put us old folks in our place. 

    Why on earth would I give you the opportunity to dissect and spin anything I say? I was there back then... I am here now.... The improvements are legion... They're self evident. But I learned in debating club many decades ago that any topic under the sun is debatable.

    i'm sure if I were to say something as obvious as "graphics are better" you would respond with "yeah but, that's all they spend their development time on which makes it all worse in the end"." And then when I say "corpse runs suck" you would say "yeah but death penalty these days are meaningless"

    So why bother?

    So you don't come across as saying "neener, neener, neener...pure truth!"

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,609Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Yes. I'm going to ignore all the warts of the early MMOs and ignore all the advancements in newer ones. Then I will close my eyes, plug my ears and say "neener, neener, neener...pure truth!" until i win.

    You could list all the advancements in newer MMOs and put us old folks in our place. 

    Why on earth would I give you the opportunity to dissect and spin anything I say? I was there back then... I am here now.... The improvements are legion... They're self evident. But I learned in debating club many decades ago that any topic under the sun is debatable.

    i'm sure if I were to say something as obvious as "graphics are better" you would respond with "yeah but, that's all they spend their development time on which makes it all worse in the end"." And then when I say "corpse runs suck" you would say "yeah but death penalty these days are meaningless"

    So why bother?

    So you don't come across as saying "neener, neener, neener...pure truth!"

    Nice try. I respectfully decline the opportunity to reply. 

  • MibletMiblet BognerPosts: 333Member

    More advanced?  Not really.  Modern games are far more advanced graphically and networking with the spread of high speed internet has improved greatly.  There are even a few new advancements such as phasing and instancing from 1997 - 2003.  Now games may not be as feature rich today but that also comes from the spending on graphical fidelity of modern games as many gamers won't touch anything that isn't pretty.

    Whether people feel that the experience is in general better is debateable.  I played back then and it's true I remember far more of my time in the older games than I do of any other MMO since, both the good and the bad, some of those good memories coming from bad experiences that people banded together to overcome, something you simply wouldn't see today, because of either players being more antisocial or from the lack of those bad experiences being a possibility.  There were also a lot of truly awful things that have been improved upon in modern games.

    I do have to admit though that 10 years ago I had hope for what the genre could evolve into, growing from it's roots to become something more than it was.  A thriving world in which to carve out adventure and fun.  I have long since abandoned hope of that becoming reality, but we do have some entertaining games instead.

     

  • Ice-QueenIce-Queen USA, GAPosts: 2,451Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by xKopogerox

    Doesn't make any sense to me, but that's the reality. When I got my PC in 2001 I was fortunate to buy Ultima Online and in 2003 Star Wars Galaxies and when comparing to anything else that came afterward, nothing comes close.

    I'll just add the valid reasons why the statement above is pure truth.

    Ultima Online:

    #1 Open world allowing fully customizable houses and buy/p2p ensured anyone could own only 1 property. And I could build anything from a simple, small marble shop or a huge castle or keep.

    #2 Realistic economy. I had to trade with others at the bank or sell my items at my house through my vendors.

    #3 More professions, skills and freedom in character building than anything else I can think of. I could be things like a treasure hunter, tamer, thief in additional to all the crafting and combat abilities.

    #4 I could pick paths how I played my character, both evil or good with an actual reputation and my actions impacted the community.

    #5 Combat was so well done where both gear and skills were equally important. If I saw multiple players together I could still avoid being gank killed if I was skilled enough on my mount or even kill multiple players 1 by 1 by separating them from each other.

    #6 Immersion was top notch. The music and theme, days turning into nights was just simply amazing. The 2d graphics were detailed, which were far more pleasant than many 3d MMO's that came afterward with ugly 3rd pixels.

    #7 Faction system. Giving players the opportunity to be elected and voted to run for sheriff, faction leader and more. How cool it would be to command your own faction, being the only one who can send a message to everyone in it when they are needed?

    #8 Freedom to steal and kill almost anywhere with full loot and even cut players heads that show their name and even decorate my house with em, lol. There was a trade off, which made PvP actually fun and worthy to do with risks and rewards.

    #9 Items decay with deep and advanced crafting ensured that being a blacksmith or armorsmith or potion maker or w/e was as valuable and worthy to do than just PvP or PvE.

    #10 Talkin about PvE, there were open world dungeons filled with anything from lich lords to dragons with rare and legendary loot as well as items that could make you gain more powerful skills.

     

    I'm sure there is more, but this is just example of a MMORPG that I was playing 12 years ago that just demonstrates what I said above is just pure truth. There were tons of items, artifacts, very few bugs and dont remember about exploits, hacking, botting or any other cheating. Only reason I stop playing it over the long run is because developers kept changing and changing it far more than it should've been. If it ain't broken don't fix it and 3rd party programs came afterwards that allowed macros and simplified combat that completely changed the way PvP was meant to be.

    I'll continue about Star Wars Galaxies later on, but yea. It's just sad for all those post WOW era players, never having the opportunity to actually experience a truly enjoyable MMORPG's.

    What doesn't make sense is how the most advanced MMORPG's happened decades ago...

    It's sad but true, older mmorpg's like Ultima Online and Asheron's Call had so much more to them than today's instanced, craptastic, so called, mmorpg's.

    #10 is a big one for me, I despise today's so called mmo's with instanced dungeons. I miss dungeons that were opened to more than just a group of people. I t was nice to walk into a dungeon filled with monsters and people all about adventuring.

    image

    What happens when you log off your characters????.....
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  • pmw4friendpmw4friend lawrenceville, GAPosts: 63Member
    Its really sad but that's 100% true mmo's back then where a lot more creative and unique then any other mmo afterwards .. :|
  • FusionFusion VaasaPosts: 1,391Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by fat_taddler

    I think a simple way to look at the evolution of MMO's is that they went from platforms that promoted creativity and community to systems that reward players based on consumption of content.

     

    This.

    And i can't say the 'evolution' has been for the better.

    Currently playing: -

    Waiting for: Class4.

    Dead and Buried: ESO, NWO, GW2, SWTOR, Darkfall, AO, AC2, Vanguard, CoH/V, EnB, EVE, Neocron, FE, EQ, EQ2, DAoC, FFXI, FFXIV, SWG, WoW, and billions of eastern junks!

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,064Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by xKopogerox

    Doesn't make any sense to me, but that's the reality. When I got my PC in 2001 I was fortunate to buy Ultima Online and in 2003 Star Wars Galaxies and when comparing to anything else that came afterward, nothing comes close.

    I'll just add the valid reasons why the statement above is pure truth.

    Ultima Online:

    #1 Open world allowing fully customizable houses and buy/p2p ensured anyone could own only 1 property. And I could build anything from a simple, small marble shop or a huge castle or keep.

    in the end all those playerhouses ended up ruining the landscape

    #2 Realistic economy. I had to trade with others at the bank or sell my items at my house through my vendors.

    spendingbhalf my game time trying to sell stuff was so much fun

    #3 More professions, skills and freedom in character building than anything else I can think of. I could be things like a treasure hunter, tamer, thief in additional to all the crafting and combat abilities.

    with everyone ending as a battlemage...  Ballance was far and gone

    #4 I could pick paths how I played my character, both evil or good with an actual reputation and my actions impacted the community.

    #5 Combat was so well done where both gear and skills were equally important. If I saw multiple players together I could still avoid being gank killed if I was skilled enough on my mount or even kill multiple players 1 by 1 by separating them from each other.

    the topdown view ruined most of the immersion for me, obviously i am more a 3d player.

    #6 Immersion was top notch. The music and theme, days turning into nights was just simply amazing. The 2d graphics were detailed, which were far more pleasant than many 3d MMO's that came afterward with ugly 3rd pixels.

    as said above, the ancient top down view ruined my immersion even then 1 1/2 decade ago

    #7 Faction system. Giving players the opportunity to be elected and voted to run for sheriff, faction leader and more. How cool it would be to command your own faction, being the only one who can send a message to everyone in it when they are needed?

    yes i agree, more games need this, but in a more controlled evironment

    #8 Freedom to steal and kill almost anywhere with full loot and even cut players heads that show their name and even decorate my house with em, lol. There was a trade off, which made PvP actually fun and worthy to do with risks and rewards.

    was fun in the beginning, but only for the hardcore players, casualls gothe shaft because of the impact of this.

    #9 Items decay with deep and advanced crafting ensured that being a blacksmith or armorsmith or potion maker or w/e was as valuable and worthy to do than just PvP or PvE.

    i dont want o spend my gametime lokking for crafters, i want good stories and feel a hero

    #10 Talkin about PvE, there were open world dungeons filled with anything from lich lords to dragons with rare and legendary loot as well as items that could make you gain more powerful skills.

    i just loved open dungeons, but i also adore good instanced dungeons.  My favourite mmo should have both.

     

    I'm sure there is more, but this is just example of a MMORPG that I was playing 12 years ago that just demonstrates what I said above is just pure truth. There were tons of items, artifacts, very few bugs and dont remember about exploits, hacking, botting or any other cheating. Only reason I stop playing it over the long run is because developers kept changing and changing it far more than it should've been. If it ain't broken don't fix it and 3rd party programs came afterwards that allowed macros and simplified combat that completely changed the way PvP was meant to be.

    I'll continue about Star Wars Galaxies later on, but yea. It's just sad for all those post WOW era players, never having the opportunity to actually experience a truly enjoyable MMORPG's.

    What doesn't make sense is how the most advanced MMORPG's happened decades ago...

    I think mmos hae come along way ince then, slightly improving and opening up to more and more players

     

    Now i realise not everyone has a casual playstyle, but its finally timeto realise the the majorrity of mmorpg players wants an easy way to relax after a hard day of work, and dont want a 2nd job.

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon

    This genre has advanced significantly over the last 11 years. More systems, mechanics, graphics and tools are available to developers than there has ever been. The problem arises from those that were early adapters to the mmorpg genre. You're ahead of the curve and are far more advanced into the genre than the mechanics could ever hope to match.  It's like riding on the tip of an iceberg and ignoring the shear amount of mass that you're standing on just below the surface. When the influx of newer mmo players who were brought in from 2004 to now have had their fill of "introductory" mmos, you will start to witness a shift in demand for things most of us have already experienced, but it will seem new to them. It's like the reintroduction of a favorite car model that was discontinued for a new line of crappy SUV. And junior seeing the new Dodge Challenger and thinking: Whoa what a sweet ride! While you're thinking: Yeah it beats the pants off these crappy things they call cars nowadays.

     

    What most of you are looking for is reintroduction of the type of mmorpgs that birthed this genre. A new Dodge Challenger so to speak. And that's what it really boils down to. You guys aren't upset that the genre is littered with clones....you're upset because, you feel, the wrong mmorpg was picked for the cloning process. But i feel that the right path was taken to fill the mmorpg reservoir with enough players  for this genre to move forward. What a lot of you here have is a lack of patience. Why don't you muster some of it up from the days you spent gaining one exp bubble or the days when you went weeks trying to get a certain drop off a rare mob. Because change is coming, you just have to be aware enough to accept that it's coming.

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  • CrisazgoCrisazgo peterboroughPosts: 42Member

    What i find odd is when they already have templates there to take ideas from and still come up short.

    WvW in GW2 is a good example, its extremely boring and nothing like the RvR of daoc its supposed to be heavily influenced from. Theres no solo / roaming groups. ALl you do is run around flipping the same towers as another zerg retakes them. I heard they removed the equivalent of relics due to hacking but its been months now come on..

    Also too many MMO's seem to follow the same boring combat, where everything is autoattacks or autoaims with wooden animations. Maybe its time to change. How good would SWTOR be if it used jedi knight games combat... Those games are so old, why cant combat in an mmo be like that. I saw 1 or 2 attempts at action combat but its hitscan and boring melee still.

  • itchmonitchmon west islip, NYPosts: 1,714Member Uncommon

    i wish people wouldnt cite WoW as the major problem with the sorry state of many MMOs.  It's not WoW.  the problem is that once WoW made so much money other game companies tried to piggyback on their success by creating similar games rather than trying to evolve the genre.  the problem is lazy greedy game companies and devs, not WoW.

     

    though i think that, looking at the recent bunch of games coming on the horizon, the trend might once again be shifting towards originality, and lets hope we will enter a new era of mmo inginuity on the backs of EQNext, Repopulation, Camelot Unchained, Hex MMOTCG, World of Darkness, Dragon's prophet, archeage, etc.

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    Currently Playing EVE, DFUW

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  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,912Member Uncommon

    I am Fwengoth of Merglethorpe.  Our nation is in great danger.  Kill 5 Wandering Wumpus and take the hides along with this note to Mergle in Merglethorpe.  He will have more for you to do.

     

    Arrow appears on screen pointing to location of Wumpus.  Click the arrow to travel to them.

     

    Even better if it has a fully voiced and animated cut-scene.


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  • Vunak23Vunak23 In your house eatin'' your cookies, FLPosts: 635Member

    The technical side of MMO's are advancing. Graphics/Networking/Interfacing etc. 

    The actual gameplay mechanics are devolving. Now a MMO's features list is shorter than a haiku, when they used to be longer then my old ATT cell phone bill. 

    "In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,498Member Uncommon
    Not more advanced. More varied.
  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon

     I love MMO's and I love playing new ones. They're fun and you get to meet new people along the way. I personally fall into the competitive/hardcore bracket myself and typically go through today's MMO in the first week or month. As everyone knows Neverwinter was recently released and here's my experience with it: 

    http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/634/view/forums/post/5721685/thread/384641#5721685

     

     I do believe that the MMO genre is regressing. It's very unfortunate that this is happening. Something in which was an amazing niche genre has become such an overly bloated monster that has no resemblance of its former glory. I see new games released day in and day out claiming "the next best thing!" but they really aren't (at least not for myself). These games are being aimed at the masses. The products are no longer here for the veterans of MMO's who've played EQ, UO, SWG, DAOC, and etc.

     While many of these games are fun they usually lack a lot of things; content, player housing, PvP,  community, in-depth, a world, crafting, communication, teamwork, and exploration this list goes on and varies between each MMO. While games do shine in certain aspects many of which lack that MMO feel that many avid players get when they play classics.

     In my most recent experience I explained how I went through the content of Neverwinter just after a week of its release and experienced everything the game had to offer. While the experience was fun it lacked many features and the progression within the game was dull. I've actually gone back to Everquest and am starting from scratch with a Froglok Shadow Knight. While the UI is quite cumbersome I still feel enjoyment while playing the game.  Everquest is a game that has been out for 13 years now and players have embarked through many challenging journeys. With their newest expansion: Rain of Fear this marks their 19th expansion. This is an amazing feat and takes a lot of dedication from a developer and I hope new and upcoming developers look at what this game is doing in comparison to what companies are releasing now.

     Even Anarchy Online is a spectacular game for an MMO that has been out for 10 years now. It has the most complex character development you'll ever see in a MMO. While the game doesn't have many expansions it keeps a strong community of hardcore players with a massive world with many things to do. From public dungeons, player cities, world PvP, twinking, alien invasions, this game even has had dynamic events even before guild wars even thought of the idea. This game is something many games today are failing to achieve.

     I personally hope that an indie developer looks at the current state of the MMO genre and strays away from it. These games truly are a recipe for disaster. Hopefully we'll have a game that takes MMO gamers and puts them back onto the right path with a world that doesn't cater to instant gratification and only rewards those who put forth hard work and dedication.

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  • RazperilRazperil Lewiston, MEPosts: 289Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Onomas
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Nah .. they don't have LFD, LFR, cross realm, phasing, mini-map, add-ons support ... and many modern MMO features.

    LFD/LFR were around before, they just changed the name to make it sound like a new feature.  And in all honesty a game with a good social aspect there is no need to beg to join a group or wait in a lobby to join a group. Raids and dungeons they turned into end game content is horrible. There should never be an end game in a mmorpg.

    Not like first implemented in WOW where it matches & teleport the group to the dungeon.

    Phasing destroyed social aspect and interaction with players.... oh yeah thats a good one. Sorry but ill never touch a game with phasing.

    Still is an advance. Plus, you don't like it .. does not mean others don't.

    Your add-on supports i do believe you are talking about dlc's that charge you an arm and a leg for a little bit extra? Older games had that also, they were called expansions and offered far more content and value.

    No. I mean like WOW-addons like dps meters, and other funtions.

    Many more modern features? Nothing important, they stripped away the important ones that made a mmorpg a mmorpg.

    Importance is in the eye of the beholder. LFD is so popular that it is a standard feature now. You may not like it, but that is irelevant.

    And personally, these features are making MMOs much better game. In fact, the old idea of the virtual world is not that important. Many games like LoL and WoT don't even need it.

    Mini-map is a huge feature for you, seriously?

     

     These features are making MMO's better? Really? I can't say what I want to say, due to it leading to a temp ban. However, dubbing games down or making it so that there is zero immersion, is not the way to go in any MMO. Your beloved Borecraft has become the king/queen standard for making an MMO the easiest possible.

    This generation of MMO players are honestly lack luster. You want the best of everything and the highest level right here and right now. You want all of the tools, add-ons, and hand-holding throughout the entire gaming experience. I know, you could not stand the harshness of corpse runs in EQ or the skill factor in UO. (Which has been pointed out over and over again, since so many of you think Borecraft was what made MMO's..) It's pretty sad that you need the game to "tell" you to do everything instead of having the fun to do it for yourself. I know, immersion is not "in the eye of the beholder" in your eyes.

    Your opinion is noted, no matter how "irrelevant" it is. :)

     

  • -Zeno--Zeno- Zion, TNPosts: 1,298Member Common

    Shadowbane.  1000 players vs 1000 players.  These days game developers instance their games because they can't handle it.

    Well maybe except Darkfall online.  Just saw a 40 vs 40 and no lag at all.  Would be nice to be in a 1000 vs 1000 again.

    The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

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