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Simple fixes never done?

filmoretfilmoret Palm Bay, FLPosts: 509Member Common
With over 15 years of pvp gaming I have seen almost everything.  One thing I have never figured out is why the game devs hardly ever fix simple problems that arise.  It is like they don't care about the pvp community.  I tip my hat to LOL for actually attempting to make their game balanced.  So far this is the best pvp game I have ever seen.  I tip my hat to SWTOR for making the most balanced battlezones I have ever seen.  I do realize that making money is the priority of games, and a player who spends over 1k$ on a character should have an advantage which is why I completely avoid these types of games.  But why is there never a fix to the gankfest? Unbalanced factions? Overpowered classes?  Even reading the comments of gamers some of them believe there is no fix and that is how it works. But I would like to say yes there is a fix to every problem in the mmo world.  The developers just need to be more creative.
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Comments

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by filmoret
    With over 15 years of pvp gaming I have seen almost everything.  One thing I have never figured out is why the game devs hardly ever fix simple problems that arise.  It is like they don't care about the pvp community.  I tip my hat to LOL for actually attempting to make their game balanced.  So far this is the best pvp game I have ever seen.  I tip my hat to SWTOR for making the most balanced battlezones I have ever seen.  I do realize that making money is the priority of games, and a player who spends over 1k$ on a character should have an advantage which is why I completely avoid these types of games.  But why is there never a fix to the gankfest? Unbalanced factions? Overpowered classes?  Even reading the comments of gamers some of them believe there is no fix and that is how it works. But I would like to say yes there is a fix to every problem in the mmo world.  The developers just need to be more creative.

    What makes you so sure its a simple fix?

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    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • pmilespmiles Federal Way, WAPosts: 383Member
    It's always a simple fix when you're not the one doing it... 
  • filmoretfilmoret Palm Bay, FLPosts: 509Member Common
    Because most of them are.  Sometimes its just changing a number in a code string other times its creating a few variables.  However none of them should take over a few hours of coding.  That is simple compared to thousands of hours creating expansions.
  • NephaeriusNephaerius Baltimore, MDPosts: 1,539Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by filmoret
    Because most of them are.  Sometimes its just changing a number in a code string other times its creating a few variables.  However none of them should take over a few hours of coding.  That is simple compared to thousands of hours creating expansions.

     Seriously?  Cause you personally have access to the game's source code and know how to fix the issue.  The reason those issues aren't usually fixed is because they're not simple.  if it really was just changing a number they probably would have done that.  Or consider this - developers have way more metrics to judge things than you do so if you're crying about the damage on a skill or whatever being OP (only takes a number change to fix) doesn't mean your right.  So the fixes you may be seeking might not even be necessary except in a certain portion of the player population's opinion.

    Steam: Neph

  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,938Member Uncommon
    Well, most of the time fixes are not viewed as "revenue generating" as compared to writing new code for an expansion or new cash shop items (since F2P games have come on the scene). It is seen as spend more time on a product that was already developed and budgeted for. Sure, there are bug fixes in MMOs, but the bugs that get fixed, tend to be the ones that get fixed right away. Bugs that are just considered "annoying" (but are sometimes much worse than that) have stayed around a long time sometimes. (Pick your game where you have seen that particular thing.)
  • LeiloniLeiloni None of your beeswax, ALPosts: 432Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nephaerius
    Originally posted by filmoret
    Because most of them are.  Sometimes its just changing a number in a code string other times its creating a few variables.  However none of them should take over a few hours of coding.  That is simple compared to thousands of hours creating expansions.

     Seriously?  Cause you personally have access to the game's source code and know how to fix the issue.  The reason those issues aren't usually fixed is because they're not simple.  if it really was just changing a number they probably would have done that.  Or consider this - developers have way more metrics to judge things than you do so if you're crying about the damage on a skill or whatever being OP (only takes a number change to fix) doesn't mean your right.  So the fixes you may be seeking might not even be necessary except in a certain portion of the player population's opinion.

    QFT, well said. It's honestly one of those two things likely. Either the fix is not simple, or it's not more important/necessary than other things. Player's need to stop with the conspiracy theories.

    Although I do have to say that some game companies could be more transparent about stuff like this to help player's understand why they do what they do. I honestly don't know why some companies think not talking is a good idea. It's not like you're making any promises about stuff you may have to change down the road.

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by filmoret
    Because most of them are.  Sometimes its just changing a number in a code string other times its creating a few variables.  However none of them should take over a few hours of coding.  That is simple compared to thousands of hours creating expansions.

    You make me laugh...

    What if that variable was a dependant of another object? you could break that too.

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  • LeiloniLeiloni None of your beeswax, ALPosts: 432Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by filmoret
    Because most of them are.  Sometimes its just changing a number in a code string other times its creating a few variables.  However none of them should take over a few hours of coding.  That is simple compared to thousands of hours creating expansions.

     

    You make me laugh...

    Probably a kid who took a few classes in college and thinks he suddenly knows everything.

  • filmoretfilmoret Palm Bay, FLPosts: 509Member Common
    Bunch of trolls it says "Simple"  I'm done, this was suppose to be a discussion about things you would like to see fixed but instead I see most of you just accept the idea that it isn't simple after all.  Even though I said clearly "SIMPLE"
  • LeiloniLeiloni None of your beeswax, ALPosts: 432Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by filmoret
    Bunch of trolls it says "Simple"  I'm done, this was suppose to be a discussion about things you would like to see fixed but instead I see most of you just accept the idea that it isn't simple after all.  Even though I said clearly "SIMPLE"

    We are disagreeing with you that game Devs don't fix simple problems. We are disagreeing with the basis of your thread. Game Devs do fix simple problems and problems that take a while to fix aren't simple.

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by filmoret
    Bunch of trolls it says "Simple"  I'm done, this was suppose to be a discussion about things you would like to see fixed but instead I see most of you just accept the idea that it isn't simple after all.  Even though I said clearly "SIMPLE"

    I think you really need to accept things arnt really as simple as they appear. But ill tell you what, Ill address what your concerns are in the root post.

    1.But why is there never a fix to the gankfest?
    Human nature takes a big part in that, If people want to congregate and go on a man hunt there isn't much you can do about that. You could limit the encounters to 10v10 and you could still end up in the situation where 9 players smack the shit out of 1.

    Even if you diluted that down to 3v3 that will still occur because the most productive way to kill enemy is to combine damage on 1 target.

    2. Unbalanced factions?
    Same above human nature comes into play. People tend to like winning. So its no surprise that some people may choose to faction hop of find other means to increase their chances of winning.

    Both of these issues are not programming problems.

    3.Overpowered classes?
    This however is a programming issue. The amount of data needed to see what is actually going wrong is not trivial. The event has to be 'caught' and replicated to make sure its actually there.

    At first you might think. Well a hunters 'Fast shot' is doing 1000 dps well just changed that up to 500.

    Besides the obvious that code is complex, and not as trivial as you make it out to be.

    1. There is dependant variables, such as threat which need to be accounted for as well.
    2. If you change it without the proper data then the class may under proform
    3. You haven't taken into effect any buffs that rely on (or append) the damage as a modifier.

    Thats just off the top of my head.


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  • MMOPapaMMOPapa Strasburg, VAPosts: 121Member
    Originally posted by filmoret
    With over 15 years of pvp gaming I have seen almost everything.  One thing I have never figured out is why the game devs hardly ever fix simple problems that arise.  It is like they don't care about the pvp community.  I tip my hat to LOL for actually attempting to make their game balanced.  So far this is the best pvp game I have ever seen.  I tip my hat to SWTOR for making the most balanced battlezones I have ever seen.  I do realize that making money is the priority of games, and a player who spends over 1k$ on a character should have an advantage which is why I completely avoid these types of games.  But why is there never a fix to the gankfest? Unbalanced factions? Overpowered classes?  Even reading the comments of gamers some of them believe there is no fix and that is how it works. But I would like to say yes there is a fix to every problem in the mmo world.  The developers just need to be more creative.

    This sounds less like a post for The Pub and more like a post for the General Gaming forum. You're discussing Player Versus Player encounters as a type of multiple player interactive conflict over multiple genres, not just in the MMORPG genre.

     

    But I'll bite anyway. If you tip your hat to League of Legends then you're basically tipping your hat to the worst example of 'Overpowered Classes' there is. Think of how many Champions there actually are... now think of how frequently you see a handful of them and how rare it is to see some. Same goes for MMORPGs, yes there is one class that may be considered overpowered... but there is that one player in every game that plays the underdog class that is better than you, whether you're overpowered or not. Death happens in PVP, you can either let it humble you or you can pull the 'overpowered' card.

     

    'Unbalanced Factions' isn't even an issue in majority of games. I can only think of less than a handful of MMORPGs that had separate classes for separate factions... meaning no more than five.

     

    Being the victim of a 'Gankfest' is more of a situation you're putting yourself in than anything else. If you go into WvWvW, RvR, Battlegrounds, Battlezones, or any PVP area and you do NOT take the time to figure out where everyone else is? You deserve to be ganked. Join a PVP Guild if you're a PVP fanatic. If you see someone else getting into a one-on-one fight, you don't have to join in... majority of people who complain about ganking are mainly gankers themselves. If someone on my team dies in a one-on-one fight? I tell them plain and simple, "You were in a fair fight, you lost... what? You want a eulogy?"

     

    And these are not simple fixes that you're mentioning, developers have been trying to solve these issues. First, NCSoft attempted to solve the 'Gankfest' issue already in Guild Wars 2 by giving a buff to the outnumbered. Second, Blizzard tamed the 'Unbalanced Faction' over time in World of Warcraft. And finally third, there is no game in the history of MMORPGs that hasn't swung the NERF BAT in an attempt to quell the cries of 'Overpowered Classes'.

     

     

    If you have solutions thought up; provide feedback, make suggestions on forums, but you must realize beforehand that what you think is a great idea? Might not be as great of an idea to the majority of the player base in a community, although  that is the main reason why things that seem like 'simple fixes' aren't so simple... you have to consider how other people may react.

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  • MMOPapaMMOPapa Strasburg, VAPosts: 121Member
    Originally posted by MMOPapa

    This sounds less like a post for The Pub and more like a post for the General Gaming forum. You're discussing Player Versus Player encounters as a type of multiple player interactive conflict over multiple genres, not just in the MMORPG genre. 

    But I'll bite anyway. If you tip your hat to League of Legends then you're basically tipping your hat to the worst example of 'Overpowered Classes' there is. Think of how many Champions there actually are... now think of how frequently you see a handful of them and how rare it is to see some. Same goes for MMORPGs, yes there is one class that may be considered overpowered... but there is that one player in every game that plays the underdog class that is better than you, whether you're overpowered or not. Death happens in PVP, you can either let it humble you or you can pull the 'overpowered' card. 

    'Unbalanced Factions' isn't even an issue in majority of games. I can only think of less than a handful of MMORPGs that had separate classes for separate factions... meaning no more than five. 

    Being the victim of a 'Gankfest' is more of a situation you're putting yourself in than anything else. If you go into WvWvW, RvR, Battlegrounds, Battlezones, or any PVP area and you do NOT take the time to figure out where everyone else is? You deserve to be ganked. Join a PVP Guild if you're a PVP fanatic. If you see someone else getting into a one-on-one fight, you don't have to join in... majority of people who complain about ganking are mainly gankers themselves. If someone on my team dies in a one-on-one fight? I tell them plain and simple, "You were in a fair fight, you lost... what? You want a eulogy?" 

    And these are not simple fixes that you're mentioning, developers have been trying to solve these issues. First, NCSoft attempted to solve the 'Gankfest' issue already in Guild Wars 2 by giving a buff to the outnumbered. Second, Blizzard tamed the 'Unbalanced Faction' over time in World of Warcraft. And finally third, there is no game in the history of MMORPGs that hasn't swung the NERF BAT in an attempt to quell the cries of 'Overpowered Classes'. 

    If you have solutions thought up; provide feedback, make suggestions on forums, but you must realize beforehand that what you think is a great idea? Might not be as great of an idea to the majority of the player base in a community, although  that is the main reason why things that seem like 'simple fixes' aren't so simple... you have to consider how other people may react.

     

    TL:DR...

     

    ...oh wait. ._.

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  • filmoretfilmoret Palm Bay, FLPosts: 509Member Common
    GW2 Idea didn't work?  That plan sounds better then no plan at all.  Yea there is probably just no need to fix the gank problem.  I always kinda liked the games that made a pvp zone within 5 or 10 levels of the character otherwise you couldn't attack them.  Don't think I say all games are being like this and don't assume that all games are trying to fix it either.  It would be nice to see more devs trying to fix these things we got two good examples SWTOR and GW2 at attempting.  WOW made it so you don't get any points for killing someone who is 5 levels below you but they didn't fix the gankfest problem.  Most of these problems are hard to solve but easy to implement.  Surprising that not much is new as far as environment is concerned from the old 1996 muds.  These are text based games they began the pvp experience and surprisingly enough they had the same problems as the new games in today's market.
  • MMOPapaMMOPapa Strasburg, VAPosts: 121Member
    Originally posted by filmoret
     I always kinda liked the games that made a pvp zone within 5 or 10 levels of the character otherwise you couldn't attack them.

    I'm drawing a blank here... what game prevented you from attacking someone outside of a certain level range in a PVP Area?

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  • filmoretfilmoret Palm Bay, FLPosts: 509Member Common
    All the oldshool text muds did. Shaiya, Arcane Saga off the top of my head.  They are extremely rare  oh yea 4story.
  • MMOPapaMMOPapa Strasburg, VAPosts: 121Member
    Originally posted by filmoret
    All the oldshool text muds did.

    I don't think it'd be as easy to implement a system like that in a modern game as it would be in a text MUD though.

     

    Though come to think of it; ganking really isn't a one sided thing. With the birth of the ganker (or PKer) came the coming of the vigilante (or PKKer). I know that personally whenever I over heard someone saying that they were being ganked or camped over a chat channel that I would come to the rescue, regardless of if it ended up a success or not; as long as the victim got away. I could always just stealth and run if things went awry. Maybe developers intended for that... using human nature (good versus evil) as a way to counter-act bullying in-game.

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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,773Member Uncommon
    It's usually simple to make changes that affect class balance by making a particular class or skill clearly stronger or weaker (e.g., does 10% more damage than before).  The hard part is figuring out exactly what changes will make classes properly balanced.  And if you want changes that will convince more than a tiny fraction of your playerbase that the classes are properly balanced, that's impossible, because different players will disagree on what constitutes properly balanced classes.
  • DisdenaDisdena Troy, NYPosts: 1,093Member
    Originally posted by MMOPapa

     But I'll bite anyway. If you tip your hat to League of Legends then you're basically tipping your hat to the worst example of 'Overpowered Classes' there is. Think of how many Champions there actually are... now think of how frequently you see a handful of them and how rare it is to see some.

    Man, what.

    113 Champions, and the fact that there are some you see only rarely is evidence that the game's unbalanced? The champions with the highest win rates typically sit around 55%. The champions with the lowest win rates are around 40%. That is obnoxiously well balanced. There are a huge number of factors that go into why some champions are played more than others. The notion that you need to play one of those champions in order to have a good chance at winning is not one of those factors.

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  • filmoretfilmoret Palm Bay, FLPosts: 509Member Common
    Yea, saying LOL isn't balanced makes me LOL.  Devs are the grown ups not the players.  You will hardly ever see a player telling the devs to nerf their favorite class.  You cannot build a balanced game by listening to players since their desire is to dominate other players not have a challenging fight.
  • MMOPapaMMOPapa Strasburg, VAPosts: 121Member
    Originally posted by Disdena
    Originally posted by MMOPapa

     But I'll bite anyway. If you tip your hat to League of Legends then you're basically tipping your hat to the worst example of 'Overpowered Classes' there is. Think of how many Champions there actually are... now think of how frequently you see a handful of them and how rare it is to see some.

    Man, what.

    113 Champions, and the fact that there are some you see only rarely is evidence that the game's unbalanced? The champions with the highest win rates typically sit around 55%. The champions with the lowest win rates are around 40%. That is obnoxiously well balanced. There are a huge number of factors that go into why some champions are played more than others. The notion that you need to play one of those champions in order to have a good chance at winning is not one of those factors.

    So you're saying if you play Tristana against yourself playing Maokai... you'll have a chance of winning as Maokai?

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  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,434Member Uncommon

    Well the fixes part ,i have asked that same question many times,i think the answer is obvious,they don't care.I do not think it has anything to do with pvp,but i do believe that they don't care much about pvp either,it is simply a gimmick to cover all bases on customers.

    I am also a long time pvp player,so i am sure you understand just how maps need to be laid out for good pvp,rpg's do not show pvp any love or effort at all.

    AS for LOL,remember that game is a VERY shallow game.All their assets are in the characters and minions,the maps are really cheap layouts,very typical design of a browser game.It's appeal is just another in the long line of Esports.My point is LOL does not have a lot going for it,so they most certainly should have the time to constantly balance the game.

    I think the problem on unbalance is simple,one that most people miss.IMO a VERY good game design is not about balance,the ONLY time balance matters is when you are pvp.See the problem,pvp and PVE do not mix,the two designs cannot coexist.They are a detriment to each other,you try to fix one you ruin the other.

    I know we hear this argument a lot but the Trinity design is by far the best.The most depth in combat design revolves around RISK and challenge.You need that RISK that if you lose your healer,your all dead,if you lose your tank your all dead.If you just balance everyone,then nothing matters,you could have 5 players die and the others just carry on like nothing happened.

    Seriously what is pvp in most rpg's anyhow?Everyone is asking now for giant sized sieges,how organized is that?Not much at all,just a mess of players all running around in hopes their gear they spent hours/days/weeks/months grinding for makes them superior.

    I can tell the OP is most worried about pvp.Well as a vet you would realize that if you want great pvp you need these>>

    1 great maps and layout

    2 varied weapon ranges,close/melee/mid range/long range all with varied damage.SPlash damage and AOES of course.

    3 all players need to be equal,it would be the management of skills and timers and how organized your group is.This also means you need  groups down to manageable sizes.Why would i want to fight at a disadvantage,i want the game to be fair across the board,i don't want to turn it into who has better gear or higher stats.

    4 Latency needs to be fair

    5 UI/setup You don't want to create an aiming game that needs too many keyboard keys,it becomes more about who is better at keyboard setups than the actual pvp skills.In other words,everyone should be able to play fluently without having to look at the keyboard or struggling with the UI or mouse.

    RPG's either do all of this poorly or not at all,hence why i can't be bothered with pvp in rpg's.

     


    Samoan Diamond

  • filmoretfilmoret Palm Bay, FLPosts: 509Member Common
    Nicely said Wizard.  I could beat Trist with Maokoi fairly easy.  They are both different characters with different jobs.  If we stand there autoattacking then Trist wins.  If we lane then Maokoi wins.  Every class needs to have a strong point and weakness.  If you got a class with no weaknesses then it needs to be fixed.
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONPosts: 2,499Member Uncommon

    If we're discussing traditional MMORPGs let's consider that there are 8-10 classes with, say 3 skill trees each, plus 10 races, each of which offers different passives which will contribute to your abilities in some regard. Under each class we can distribute 60 skill points, say, throughout each tree with the exception that you need X number of points to access later skills in each tree which have some affect on our abilities or statistics. 

     

    So you've essentially got, literally, thousands of combinations. If we think of these combinations as "sliders"  which determine the balance of each particular class, each tick that we move a particular slider affects hundreds of other sliders along the way. 

     

    Then we've got things called unknowns. What value do you put on a healer in your PvP group? Or a tank? Someone who has high survivability? Someone who can buff an entire group? These are all non-tangible things because someone could be a healer, but not be healing at all, which would make their class less effective. So should we raise their DPS so that they contribute more damage? But then the classes who actually DO act in a supporting role are doing more damage, PLUS provide an added bonus to the group, such as heals or self/group survivability. 

     

    Even if we took an "optimized" class build, the problem is that someone could then build a class that would counteract the effectiveness of that optimal build. I would argue that any massive advantages are handled in due time, but to assume that any fix is "simple" is naive. The physical code change itself may be trivial, but it's the trickle down "or sliders" that then become uneven which are the real problem. I'd actually argue that it's developers making "simple" fixes that are the biggest problem in creating OP classes in the first place. 

    Crazkanuk

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  • MMOPapaMMOPapa Strasburg, VAPosts: 121Member
    Originally posted by filmoret
    Nicely said Wizard.  I could beat Trist with Maokoi fairly easy.  They are both different characters with different jobs.  If we stand there autoattacking then Trist wins.  If we lane then Maokoi wins.  Every class needs to have a strong point and weakness.  If you got a class with no weaknesses then it needs to be fixed.

    If you lose to Maokai as Tristana in any situation; you're not very good with Tristana.

    I can see this has become a conversation of denial of the obvious but I will share my opinion on how League of Legends seems balanced. It only seems that way because there are so many champions to choose from. Take Path of Exile for example... there's so many possibilities in any class that it seems fair. But lets face it; certain keystones are a lot more powerful than other keystones. Just like certain champions are a lot more powerful than other champions.

     

    Here's a fun way of proving it. Pick any five letters in the alphabet then pick any five numbers between 1 and 9, first person to respond.

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