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Breaking the lore

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  • rygard49rygard49 Huntington Beach, CAPosts: 975Member
    Originally posted by asrlohz
    Originally posted by rygard49
    Originally posted by asrlohz

    But I haven't caught them making a silly mistake. I've caught them trying to please the series newly found fans from Skyrim. I will tell the developers and hope for a proper change but I doubt it will happen. And aye, it is the spice. But it is also the "soul" of the game. It is essential for a TES title.

    Ahhh. So the real reason comes to light. You loved Elder Scrolls before Skyrim made it too 'mainstream', and you resent a fanbase that you see as a jumping onto a bandwagon. I should have known by your forum avatar... you're a video game hipster! image

    Didn't claim that. I greatly enjoyed Skyrim but it was very much simplified. A lot of the quests were randomized and the guilds' storylines were super linear and grindy. Oblivion was quite mainstream as well but it didn't push all of its resources to custom made dungeons whilst still retaining the same grindy feel.

     

    I still love The Elder Scrolls and I've never claimed otherwise. You are making unreasonable assumptions. Also, the avatar I'm using is from the webcomic "PvP Online" which is quite popular.

    You, my friend, have one shallow and prejudiced mindset.

    Erm... I was hoping that if the utter ridiculousness of the post wasn't apparent, that at least the smiley at the end would do enough to indicate that I was joking around. I was, apparently, mistaken.

  • asrlohzasrlohz UddevallaPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by rygard49
    Originally posted by asrlohz
    Originally posted by rygard49
    Originally posted by asrlohz

    But I haven't caught them making a silly mistake. I've caught them trying to please the series newly found fans from Skyrim. I will tell the developers and hope for a proper change but I doubt it will happen. And aye, it is the spice. But it is also the "soul" of the game. It is essential for a TES title.

    Ahhh. So the real reason comes to light. You loved Elder Scrolls before Skyrim made it too 'mainstream', and you resent a fanbase that you see as a jumping onto a bandwagon. I should have known by your forum avatar... you're a video game hipster! image

    Didn't claim that. I greatly enjoyed Skyrim but it was very much simplified. A lot of the quests were randomized and the guilds' storylines were super linear and grindy. Oblivion was quite mainstream as well but it didn't push all of its resources to custom made dungeons whilst still retaining the same grindy feel.

     

    I still love The Elder Scrolls and I've never claimed otherwise. You are making unreasonable assumptions. Also, the avatar I'm using is from the webcomic "PvP Online" which is quite popular.

    You, my friend, have one shallow and prejudiced mindset.

    Erm... I was hoping that if the utter ridiculousness of the post wasn't apparent, that at least the smiley at the end would do enough to indicate that I was joking around. I was, apparently, mistaken.

    Yes, of course you need to rely on a low resolution smily to show that the text was purely satire. My apologies for not picking up that vague hint.

    image
  • AkerbeltzAkerbeltz Vitoria-GasteizPosts: 161Member
    Originally posted by rygard49
    Originally posted by Nobadeeftw
    Originally posted by rygard49

     

    I played SWG for the first 3 months, so you obviously shouldn't make assumptions about complete strangers. It was lore stomping to start with that you could even be a Jedi in the time period the game was set, so their bastardization of the lore didn't happen little by little over time. It started right away.

    I understand roleplaying, and I've participated in the past. The roleplayers I know and have played with are all apt improvisationalists. They can take minor discrepancies in the established lore and do either one of two things:

    1. Ignore it, or...
    2. Work it into a story and explain for themselves why this thing is the way it is.
    Roleplaying is something outside of the game mechanics, and those player made stories exist both within and outside of the universe. They don't need to follow any of the lore of the game if they don't want, that's the beauty of a group of individuals using their collective imaginations. If your reason for not liking the game is because a minor book ruined your roleplaying immersion... I'd say you're doing it wrong.

    Gonna go a bit off-topic though but had to step in as I think you are very mistaken about:

     

    1) SWG: To become a Jedi in early SWG was a titanic achievement, It could take a minimum of 6 months if you were really committed to the task, therefore reflecting properly the exceptional status of the Jedi. I can concede that if we are purist to the official lore there shouldn't be any known and "official" Jedi except Obi-Wan, Joda and Luke. I think they did a good compromise between lore purity and playability.

    The ESO case is different as they have introduced fundamental changes in the lore (politics, daedra, races, cosmogony, registered events) that are NOT needed. They could have design a rather rich and promising mmoRPG without the need for those dramatic alterations.

    Again: This lore changing business, among other things, is quite eloquent about how the design they have opted for is made for catering the lowest-common-denominator among gamers. And this is not good for ANY OF US - not even for the lowest-common-denominator audience as it deprives them of any possibility of improving as gamers and learning and adapting to a richer and more lasting gaming experience; getting stuck in generic mediocrity is never an option, not even for entertainment matters).

     

     

    2) RPG: As a tabletop RPG veteran I think you are very, very wrong about your vision. What you describe is the kind of (incorrectly called) "RPG" that is performed in themepark games, where due to the lack of RP integration with game mechanics roleplayers don't have the possibility of doing proper RPG, they instead compartmentalize themselves in a sort of bubble where they perform a sort of theater play. It's very similar to what happens in LARP: not true roleplaying but a dramatization.

    RPG by its very nature must be aligned with any game's gameplay, mechanics, and assets, this is being so since the early tabletop days in the 70s.

     

    Example: If you a leader of a clan of rogues and you say that you have 5 caravans it's because you have 5 real caravans in-game - and if you cannot have them and you have to "imagine" them it's because that particular game is not adapted for RPG, it is indeed an arcade (which is what all themeparks are really).

     

    The only way to properly roleplay is in games that have sandbox foundations (SWG, UO...); the rest is just dramatization and a certain form of compartmentalized alienation from the rest of the game - compartments are a very defining feature of casual-friendly themeparks, by the way.

     

    And no, you don't fundamentally change the lore whereas roleplaying, people who don't know what roleplaying is do that - every "serious" RP clan a/o community will have a bunch of DMs to look after the canon is respected.

     

    Regards

     

    EDIT: typos

    Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

  • asrlohzasrlohz UddevallaPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by rygard49
    Originally posted by Nobadeeftw
    Originally posted by rygard49

    What's the difference between a video game and an MMORPG? Why would an MMO have to be held to stricter standards as far as the lore? I would think the opposite. In order to have a massive audience playing simultaneously, you have to concede certain aspects of lore to allow that. Not that this book thing is in the same vein as Priests of Mitra killing each other in AoC.

    This complaint about a book being in the game at the wrong time period... This is just minutiae that very few would even notice, let alone care about.

    You obviously never played SWG.  It started off as one little thing here and one little thing there.  Two years later the entire game was a lore stomping extravganza.  It was impossible for the actual roleplayers in the game to not notice all the nonsense.  This also reminds me of Star Trek online.  Sure, you could try to immerse yourself into that world; but, you're going to notice the hunderds of ships that are out of place, along with the people wearing uniforms that don't fit the time or place.  I wouldn't even know where to being with bad story telling.  It invokes the feeling of apathy in the community.  If no one else is going to bother following the established canon of an IP, why should the player care about it?

    If you don't understand what roleplaying is, perhaps it's time to do some serious research.  Sure you can find people on this site debating day and night about the definition of it; but, people who roleplayed long before MMOs, they seem to be the only ones who get it.  It's difficult to immerse yourself into a world full of contradictions.  Might as well be playing mine sweeper if you want mind numbing entertainment.  That's not why MMORPGs were created though, they were an obvious improvement upon MUDs.  Since then they have evolved into a multiplayer smorgasbord, containing whatever will attract subscribers for a period of time and when that fails, they invent some other random gimmick out of desperation.

    I played SWG for the first 3 months, so you obviously shouldn't make assumptions about complete strangers. It was lore stomping to start with that you could even be a Jedi in the time period the game was set, so their bastardization of the lore didn't happen little by little over time. It started right away.

    I understand roleplaying, and I've participated in the past. The roleplayers I know and have played with are all apt improvisationalists. They can take minor discrepancies in the established lore and do either one of two things:

    1. Ignore it, or...
    2. Work it into a story and explain for themselves why this thing is the way it is.
    Roleplaying is something outside of the game mechanics, and those player made stories exist both within and outside of the universe. They don't need to follow any of the lore of the game if they don't want, that's the beauty of a group of individuals using their collective imaginations. If your reason for not liking the game is because a minor book ruined your roleplaying immersion... I'd say you're doing it wrong.

    Did he ever claimed that a single ill-placed book would ruin his roleplaying immersion? Personally in that exact moment I would find that book I would sit there and go "This book haven't been written yet." and I'd feel less immersed in the universe.

    I am a lore fan, not an RP fan. But if I were, and I went into an RP with you, I'm sure you would start claiming that you are the Dragonborn or the Nerevarine. Much like that kid back in pre-school that always claimed that he had [Insert super power here] so you couldn't [Insert action here] him.

    EDIT: A lot of people who played Morrowind would notice because the Author of that book plays a major role in the main quest. And a very memorable role as well.

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  • JackMackJackMack Tucson, AZPosts: 14Member

    For people who are lore enthusiasts: Thank you for paying attention and keeping Dev's honest...and,

     

    Grow the hell up. If you went back to Homer and told him how awesome the Odyssey is he might say "Thanks, I was inspired by a story I heard from that old bastard over there".  And when asked the old bastard could say "Yeah, that's great, but that ain't the way I told the story to Homer".

    In other words, how do you know the Elder Scrolls author of the "Lusty Argonian Maid" is the story's progenitor and not just the first person to put pen to paper?  Lorewise, the story could be a traditional tale 10,000 years older than we know, and adapted in different ways by different ages and cultures, just like so many of our own legends. Or, then again, it could just be a made up fable someone added into ES to put a little humor and levity into what is otherwise a pretty dark themed game. And of course this poor dumb Bethesda bastard never thought that you, The Simpson's comic book guy, would be keeping a detailed personal journal documenting each and every last word to hold as the holy word of Mitra.

    To quote a more tenured poster, lighten up Francis.

  • asrlohzasrlohz UddevallaPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by JackMack

    For people who are lore enthusiasts: Thank you for paying attention and keeping Dev's honest...and,

     

    Grow the hell up. If you went back to Homer and told him how awesome the Odyssey is he might say "Thanks, I was inspired by a story I heard from that old bastard over there".  And when asked the old bastard could say "Yeah, that's great, but that ain't the way I told the story to Homer".

    In other words, how do you know the Elder Scrolls author of the "Lusty Argonian Maid" is the story's progenitor and not just the first person to put pen to paper?  Lorewise, the story could be a traditional tale 10,000 years older than we know, and adapted in different ways by different ages and cultures, just like so many of our own legends. Or, then again, it could just be a made up fable someone added into ES to put a little humor and levity into what is otherwise a pretty dark themed game. And of course this poor dumb Bethesda bastard never thought that you, The Simpson's comic book guy, would be keeping a detailed personal journal documenting each and every last word to hold as the holy word of Mitra.

    To quote a more tenured poster, lighten up Francis.

    Say whatever you will, but it was quite obvious to anyone who had followed the game since Morrowind. If you haven't played the game, don't try to make such silly points. What you are saying is that Crassius Curio copied word for word what someone else had written 800 years before him.

    Edit:It's a perverse play written by a perverted mind and meant to be performed by actors. I doubt that in 10.000 years from now people will dig up your hentai collection and claim it to be a traditional tale told by our ancestors, generation through generation.

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  • hMJemhMJem Marysville, WAPosts: 465Member

    I might break your guys' hearts with this one, but I'll say 50% of the day 1 ESO buyers dont care about the Elder Scrolls story or havent played an Elder Scrolls game before, but are just looking for a new MMO to try or be attached to. And wont care about the story in ESO

     

     

  • neroistneroist Chatsworth, GAPosts: 24Member

    The TES lore is one of my favorite things to study on in my off time. It is very vast and deep also strange. The thing is though they basically have an artistic licensing mechanic in play with the lore.  For those that do not know TES is all a dream of a mad sleeping god the godhead. Which makes just about anything possible.

    For instance Tiber Septim  (avatar of Lorkhan) is CHIM. He mantled Lorkhan and became Talos a divine. CHIM is when something in TES knows and then understands that it is everything (a dream of the mad godhead)  but most importantly also retains its own identity. This is canon.

    I for one do not like it when they break core lore such as Dark Brothers and Sisters killing each other and not being sent to the void. But that remains to be seen if everyone can join the Dark Brotherhood and go around killing each other.

    But with all the power of a god. Who is to say what is possible when it comes to a god? And even more so a sleeping mad god's dream.

  • asrlohzasrlohz UddevallaPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by hMJem

    I might break your guys' hearts with this one, but I'll say 50% of the day 1 ESO buyers dont care about the Elder Scrolls story or havent played an Elder Scrolls game before, but are just looking for a new MMO to try or be attached to. And wont care about the story in ESO

     

     

    Probably more than 50%, lad. But it is irrelevant to this discussion.

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  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by asrlohz
    Originally posted by hMJem

    I might break your guys' hearts with this one, but I'll say 50% of the day 1 ESO buyers dont care about the Elder Scrolls story or havent played an Elder Scrolls game before, but are just looking for a new MMO to try or be attached to. And wont care about the story in ESO

     

     

    Probably more than 50%, lad. But it is irrelevant to this discussion.

    There is a point there. How much is this worth to ZM? How many writers do they have and how many lore masters do they have? With so few fans that care about the lore, how much should ZM? Or is their plan to be 70% on the mark? 90%? How much would it cost to get 99%? Is it money that helps decide this? 


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member

    All the debate about 'how much inaccuracy in the lore' is acceptable or not misses a central point in my opinion.

    Zenimax deciding having a guy with the title 'Loremaster' who goes on about ES lore?

    That's a pretty basic marketing mistake if you have decided to play fast and loose with the very lore you are now emphasising - it does not do anything (good or bad) for the 'MMO or bust fans', and just irritates the significant numbers of lore-lovers everyone and his dog knows the IP has historically generated.

    This is just the latest in a line of avoidable blunders really...

  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member
    Originally posted by asrlohz
    Originally posted by hMJem

    I might break your guys' hearts with this one, but I'll say 50% of the day 1 ESO buyers dont care about the Elder Scrolls story or havent played an Elder Scrolls game before, but are just looking for a new MMO to try or be attached to. And wont care about the story in ESO

     

     

    Probably more than 50%, lad. But it is irrelevant to this discussion.

    Not to mention entirely unprovable...

  • NeherunNeherun St. MichelPosts: 278Member

    Did not read the 9 pages of thread; But in addition to those OP mentioned. There are more than a few notable TES characters in the lore who outlive the mentioned life expentancies without involvement of magicka. In addition to this, Thu'um has been part of the Nords culture, and surely it hasn't been forgotten during the 2E. No way its "memory of past." Tongues, those who know how to THOOM have existed throughout the recorded timeline, the thing is that the most skilled of them are typically converted into Way of the Voice and agree to its terms, and most of them go into selcusion at the throat of the world.

     

    However, not every tongue (a character who knows THOOM) lives at the Monastery, so claiming that Thu'um is a forgotten piece of Nord culture is absurd excuse not to allow Nords to THOOM in game.

     

    image

  • DestaiDestai Detroit, MIPosts: 574Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by asrlohz
    Originally posted by hMJem

    I might break your guys' hearts with this one, but I'll say 50% of the day 1 ESO buyers dont care about the Elder Scrolls story or havent played an Elder Scrolls game before, but are just looking for a new MMO to try or be attached to. And wont care about the story in ESO

     

     

    Probably more than 50%, lad. But it is irrelevant to this discussion.

    There is a point there. How much is this worth to ZM? How many writers do they have and how many lore masters do they have? With so few fans that care about the lore, how much should ZM? Or is their plan to be 70% on the mark? 90%? How much would it cost to get 99%? Is it money that helps decide this? 

    You know, they could just go to UESP.net for FREE and research there. I don't care how many fans give a shit about the lore, it's a story/game set in the Elder Scrolls universe. Write accurate to that or don't bother at all. It's about integrity. If they can't be accurate to it, then why carry that label?

  • ShortyBibleShortyBible Posts: 397Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Akerbeltz

    We are gonna dramatically alter a well-loved and deeply rooted lore and cosmogony as the "average common people that play just for fun" (registered trademark) don't really care about such nerdy things .

     

    We are gonna change and castrate the mechanics and ethos of the Role Playing Genre to adapt it to a more arcade-ish format so the attention span of the "average common people that play just for fun" (registered trademark) can bear it.

     

    We are gonna forget about the virtual world concept and make it more of a linear, story driven experience as we don't want the "average common people that play just for fun" (registered trademark)  to get lost a/o take decissions.

     

    We are gonna make the game easy and guarantee that the "average common people that play just for fun" (registered trademark) can beat all the content as he or she has paid the same money as everybody else and we don't want he or she to become frustrated

     

    We are gonna change the arts and aesthetics to make them more pretty so the "average common people that play just for fun" (registered trademark) can have pretty characters.

     

    Etc, etc, etc.

     

    The video game industry - due to a very obvious commercial interest -  is fighting a particular crusade to cater all its products to the "average common people that play just for fun" (registered trademark) who, to put it in a somewhat cartoonish way, is nothing more than a guy or a gal that watches the Karsadians, eats McDonalds, dreams with becoming famous, suffers from mild anxiety, cannot concentrate while reading and the so. In other words: A functional illiterate with a slight ADHD and delusions of grandeur.

     

    The logical result are bland and dull products that lack all thrill, longevity and immersion. In other words: They lack Quality.

     

    But as a famous author put it: Nobody went bankrupt for underestimating the intelligence of the Americans (nowadays this can be applied to all the West).

     

    Have a nice day

     

     


    Heavy :)

  • baphametbaphamet omaha, NEPosts: 2,836Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by JackMack
    For people who are lore enthusiasts: Thank you for paying attention and keeping Dev's honest...and, Grow the hell up. If you went back to Homer and told him how awesome the Odyssey is he might say "Thanks, I was inspired by a story I heard from that old bastard over there".  And when asked the old bastard could say "Yeah, that's great, but that ain't the way I told the story to Homer".In other words, how do you know the Elder Scrolls author of the "Lusty Argonian Maid" is the story's progenitor and not just the first person to put pen to paper?  Lorewise, the story could be a traditional tale 10,000 years older than we know, and adapted in different ways by different ages and cultures, just like so many of our own legends. Or, then again, it could just be a made up fable someone added into ES to put a little humor and levity into what is otherwise a pretty dark themed game. And of course this poor dumb Bethesda bastard never thought that you, The Simpson's comic book guy, would be keeping a detailed personal journal documenting each and every last word to hold as the holy word of Mitra.To quote a more tenured poster, lighten up Francis.

    sorry, this post makes too much sense. let the complaining continue.......

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Destai
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by asrlohz
    Originally posted by hMJem

    I might break your guys' hearts with this one, but I'll say 50% of the day 1 ESO buyers dont care about the Elder Scrolls story or havent played an Elder Scrolls game before, but are just looking for a new MMO to try or be attached to. And wont care about the story in ESO

     

     

    Probably more than 50%, lad. But it is irrelevant to this discussion.

    There is a point there. How much is this worth to ZM? How many writers do they have and how many lore masters do they have? With so few fans that care about the lore, how much should ZM? Or is their plan to be 70% on the mark? 90%? How much would it cost to get 99%? Is it money that helps decide this? 

    You know, they could just go to UESP.net for FREE and research there. I don't care how many fans give a shit about the lore, it's a story/game set in the Elder Scrolls universe. Write accurate to that or don't bother at all. It's about integrity. If they can't be accurate to it, then why carry that label?

    Thats the thing, this is common in just about any story. Changes happen even in lore as big as Star Trek and Star Wars. Heck its even happened to LotR. I agree it should be avoided as much as possible but this is very common. 


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


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