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Proof of sandbox popularity?

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  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Zod, CAPosts: 743Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by General-Zod
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Shadowguy64
    Would a sandbox work for a non-PVP centric crowd?

    pve sandbox would work just fine. 

    I can only imagine

    A knight and full plate in his garden watering his flowers and harvesting petals to decorate his house with...  Mmmm the excitement

    If thats all you can imagine doing in a pve game you need more experience and a greater imagination

    Since you have an idea how much experience and imagination or lack thereof from my one post, why dont you help me out here, Ill start...

    Exploration

    Structure creation

    Fighting A.I scripts

    There, now your turn... what else is there to do?

    image
  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,119Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SavageHorizon
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    Originally posted by simsalabim77
    EVE Online is pretty popular, but it's a niche audience for sure. It just happens that people who prefer that niche are extremely loud on these forums. 

    Without using the word WoW, name a themepark that has more subs.

    EQ at its peak.  SWTOR still has almost 500k subs currently and they have stated that it is trending higher as f2p gamers make the switch.  I don't know the numbers for Rift, but I have a feeling it is on par with Eve if not surpassing it.

     

    I prefer a nice mix of themepark and sanbox elements, but if I have to go strictly one or the other, I'll take themepark over a complete sandbox anyday.  I did not like UO or SWG or A Tale of the Desert, the only sandbox games I have played.  I have never wanted to try Eve as I am not fond of games that play more like a spreadsheet.  I do not find number crunching fun and I learned that the hard way in Anarchy Online.

     

    EQ wasn't a themepark it was a hybrid, it was skill based and had a class system. You can't put EQ in the same bracket as WOW or Rift. Are you sure you actually played EQ, also the game peaked at around 500k.

    EQ was a themepark.  Instead of highly visible quest hubs, it had mob camps and most quest givers were located in the main cities, only they lacked the exclamation point.  There was nothing in the game that allowed you to make your mark apon the game world, a pre-requisite for sandbox.  Classes were rigid and skills were set, you could not mix and match until the AA system was implemented years later.  The fact that you had to use skills after leveling or spend points in them in order to skill up 10 points is not a sandbox feature and had absolutely no bearing on gameplay unless you were starting to use a new weapon at high levels with no points spent in the skill.  There was no player created content aside from roleplaying.  Just because the game wasn't on rails does not a sandbox make, it merely indicated a freeform game world which you can also get in WoW and AO and AC.

     

    I know the game peaked around 450K, that is why I used it as a comparison to the current Eve in regards to themepark games that have been AS successful if not more successful than the most popular sandbox.  Whether a game is themepark or sandbox, I prefer an open ended game world with multiple areas per level / skill level range.  I can't stand games like DAoC or anything from Cryptic that herds you through narrow and singular paths of progression, but by that same token, I can't stand games that have no structure at all.  Free for all, completely player driven content is boring to me and indicates lazy development.  My perfect game will be a sandpark with many features and systems.  A game that embraces many paths of progression and doesn't force you to do one over another due to weighted and arbitrary reward systems.

    image
  • casual187casual187 omaha, NEPosts: 32Member

    Screenshot or it didn't happen.image

     

    But seriously i prefer a hybrid of sandbox and themepark. Sandpark?,themebox?

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,279Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Latronus
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    Originally posted by simsalabim77
    EVE Online is pretty popular, but it's a niche audience for sure. It just happens that people who prefer that niche are extremely loud on these forums. 

    Without using the word WoW, name a themepark that has more subs.

    Without using the word Eve, name a sandbox that has anywhere near the second most populated themepark.  Oh hell, name another truly successful, still running and relevant sandbox.

     

    Age of  Wushu, 15-20 million worldwide. 

  • KarahandrasKarahandras Sible HedinghamPosts: 1,676Member Uncommon
    Outside of eve, I think the 'proof' that a sandbox mmorpg could be popular comes from the old ones(swg, uo etc) that unfortunately got killed off by poor development. 
  • ice-vortexice-vortex Xenia, OHPosts: 951Member
    EVE has a major hurdle simply because it is of the SciFi genre. Age of Wushu has a hurdle in the western markets because it is Asian fantasy. The market right now lacks a good western fantasy sandbox. It will be interesting to see just how well Everquest Next does.
  • TheodwulfTheodwulf Brockton, MAPosts: 231Member Uncommon
     I would like a theme park for most of the leveling process (ie a long tutorial) and then segway into a sandbox for to end game. My biggest gripe with sandboxes is the learning curve is steep,  , every second you didn't play counts against you, and  the crowd sandboxes tend to attract
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Caldrin

    Yeah a lot of people want a good sandbox game.. its one of the reasons why so many have been recently backed on kickstarter..

    Will a sandbox game be as popular as wow.. no probably not.. but nothing will be.

     

    No. The reason they are on KS is because few wants them. If they can sell millions and millions of copies, big publishers will already been jumping all over them.

    KS is for niche products, and devs who can't get real funding and has to resort to selling dreams.

  • SlampigSlampig Chantilly, VAPosts: 2,376Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    Is there any proof that sandboxes are popular at all?

     

    The only proof of sandboxes being popular is that every new game gets some people on mmorpg.com begging for it to become a sandbox, and the same people scoffing any game thats not a sandbox... 

     

    But how popular are Sandboxes?  just wondering if someone ever somewhere did a decent poll about this?

    Lets list them all off.

     

    EvE Online...

    That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Slampig
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    Is there any proof that sandboxes are popular at all?

     

    The only proof of sandboxes being popular is that every new game gets some people on mmorpg.com begging for it to become a sandbox, and the same people scoffing any game thats not a sandbox... 

     

    But how popular are Sandboxes?  just wondering if someone ever somewhere did a decent poll about this?

    Lets list them all off.

     

    EvE Online...

    TOR has as much subs as Eve, and many more free players. Do is TOR popular too? I thought it was a failure?

     

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by General-Zod
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by General-Zod
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Shadowguy64
    Would a sandbox work for a non-PVP centric crowd?

    pve sandbox would work just fine. 

    I can only imagine

    A knight and full plate in his garden watering his flowers and harvesting petals to decorate his house with...  Mmmm the excitement

    If thats all you can imagine doing in a pve game you need more experience and a greater imagination

    Since you have an idea how much experience and imagination or lack thereof from my one post, why dont you help me out here, Ill start...

    Exploration

    Structure creation

    Fighting A.I scripts

    There, now your turn... what else is there to do?

    Good for you.  Those are the big ones.  Yes all those things can, should and frequently are done in pve sandboxes.  Since you can imagine things other than a knight picking flowers, why did you state that in what was obviously a sarcastic post about pve sandboxes? 

    Are you confused?

    I'll add a big general one.  Every single thing you can do in every themepark MMO in the world can be done in a pve sandbox with the exception of open world pvp.

    edit -with regards to what I can tell about you.  I can only tell what you write, so if you write a very limited answer to a pretty simple question it's logical to believe you are limited.

    Otherwise you wouldn't have written such a pathetically stupid answer when you obviously knew there was more to do.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ice-vortex
    EVE has a major hurdle simply because it is of the SciFi genre. Age of Wushu has a hurdle in the western markets because it is Asian fantasy. The market right now lacks a good western fantasy sandbox. It will be interesting to see just how well Everquest Next does.

    Really?

    Mass Effects is sci-fi and sold a lot.

    Halo is sci-fi and  sold a lot.

    GoW is sci-fi and sold a lot.

    Heck, even TOR is sci-fi and sold a lot.

    So what is the problem being sci-fi?

  • DrakephireDrakephire Fontana, CAPosts: 445Member Uncommon

    pure sandbox games are difficult to do in the MMO space because you've always got the kid that comes into your sandbox and kicks over your sandcastle.  No fun in that.

     

    There are some pretty popular open-ended sandbox games that are single player however...like the new release "Don't Starve."  

     

  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Zod, CAPosts: 743Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by General-Zod
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by General-Zod
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Shadowguy64
    Would a sandbox work for a non-PVP centric crowd?

    pve sandbox would work just fine. 

    I can only imagine

    A knight and full plate in his garden watering his flowers and harvesting petals to decorate his house with...  Mmmm the excitement

    If thats all you can imagine doing in a pve game you need more experience and a greater imagination

    Since you have an idea how much experience and imagination or lack thereof from my one post, why dont you help me out here, Ill start...

    Exploration

    Structure creation

    Fighting A.I scripts

    There, now your turn... what else is there to do?

    Good for you.  Those are the big ones.  Yes all those things can, should and frequently are done in pve sandboxes.  Since you can imagine things other than a knight picking flowers, why did you state that in what was obviously a sarcastic post about pve sandboxes? 

    Are you confused?

    I'll add a big general one.  Every single thing you can do in every themepark MMO in the world can be done in a pve sandbox with the exception of open world pvp.

    edit -with regards to what I can tell about you.  I can only tell what you write, so if you write a very limited answer to a pretty simple question it's logical to believe you are limited.

    Otherwise you wouldn't have written such a pathetically stupid answer when you obviously knew there was more to do.

    *Face Palm*

    I was merely asking if you can think of anymore possible content a PvE sandbox could have. You didnt offer anything, plus you missed that I was comparing a PvE sandbox to a PvP sandbox NOT a PvE sandbox to a Themepark. My sarcasm in the post before was just pointing out the limits of a PvE sandbox. A Sandbox needs PvP or it will be all fluff and no grit....

    and you had the nerve to ask if I was confused .. tsk tsk tsk

     

     

    image
  • rockin_uforockin_ufo St. Paul, MNPosts: 377Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ice-vortex
    EVE has a major hurdle simply because it is of the SciFi genre. Age of Wushu has a hurdle in the western markets because it is Asian fantasy. The market right now lacks a good western fantasy sandbox. It will be interesting to see just how well Everquest Next does.

    Really?

    Mass Effects is sci-fi and sold a lot.

    Halo is sci-fi and  sold a lot.

    GoW is sci-fi and sold a lot.

    Heck, even TOR is sci-fi and sold a lot.

    So what is the problem being sci-fi?

    I think the majority of MMO players prefer fantasy. Just a guess tho.

    Whenever i step outside, somebody claims to see the light
    It seems to me that all of us have lost our patience.
    'cause everyone thinks they're right,
    And nobody thinks that there just might
    Be more than one road to our final destination--

  • free2playfree2play Toronto, ONPosts: 1,868Member Uncommon

    Age of Wushu is a rebranding of a Chinese Sand box that is a decade old and while i don't have a problem with them having their moment in the sun, the game didn't really offer anything new. It came in as a sandbox and got a lot of attention just on that merit alone.

     

    Sand Box MMO's are in demand. SWG proved it, Age of Wushu confirms it. The trouble being, they always seem to die a quick and horrible death because someone decided Sand Box means PvP in a do whatever the hell you want fashion and people get bullied out of them.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by General-Zod
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by General-Zod
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by General-Zod
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Shadowguy64
    Would a sandbox work for a non-PVP centric crowd?

    pve sandbox would work just fine. 

    I can only imagine

    A knight and full plate in his garden watering his flowers and harvesting petals to decorate his house with...  Mmmm the excitement

    If thats all you can imagine doing in a pve game you need more experience and a greater imagination

    Since you have an idea how much experience and imagination or lack thereof from my one post, why dont you help me out here, Ill start...

    Exploration

    Structure creation

    Fighting A.I scripts

    There, now your turn... what else is there to do?

    Good for you.  Those are the big ones.  Yes all those things can, should and frequently are done in pve sandboxes.  Since you can imagine things other than a knight picking flowers, why did you state that in what was obviously a sarcastic post about pve sandboxes? 

    Are you confused?

    I'll add a big general one.  Every single thing you can do in every themepark MMO in the world can be done in a pve sandbox with the exception of open world pvp.

    edit -with regards to what I can tell about you.  I can only tell what you write, so if you write a very limited answer to a pretty simple question it's logical to believe you are limited.

    Otherwise you wouldn't have written such a pathetically stupid answer when you obviously knew there was more to do.

    *Face Palm*

    I was merely asking if you can think of anymore possible content a PvE sandbox could have. You didnt offer anything, plus you missed that I was comparing a PvE sandbox to a PvP sandbox NOT a PvE sandbox to a Themepark. My sarcasm in the post before was just pointing out the limits of a PvE sandbox. A Sandbox needs PvP or it will be all fluff and no grit....

    and you had the nerve to ask if I was confused .. tsk tsk tsk

     

     

    No.

    You allready stated everything that MMO's have.  A pvp sandbox has

    Exploration

    Structure creation

    Fighting A.I scripts

    And pvp.

    A pve sandbox has

    Exploration

    Structure creation

    Fighting A.I scripts

     

    "A Sandbox needs PvP or it will be all fluff and no grit...."

    Dumbest statement in regards to sandboxes.

    So yes Are you confused?

    There are several pve sandbox games out there allready, no none are very successfull but most have a great deal of depth to them (depth meaning meaningfull choices).

    I also wasn't comparing a pve sandbox to a themepark, I only pointed out that it can have as many features.  So name a feature besides pvp and a pve can have it.

    You allready had the major points though.

    So no. 

    A sandbox does not need pvp.  It can have just as much "grit" without it.

    Heck atitd has more meaning than most of the pvp sandboxes.

    Read through these

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/349518

     

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • marsh9799marsh9799 jackson, MSPosts: 100Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by General-Zod
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by General-Zod
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by General-Zod
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Shadowguy64
    Would a sandbox work for a non-PVP centric crowd?

    pve sandbox would work just fine. 

    I can only imagine

    A knight and full plate in his garden watering his flowers and harvesting petals to decorate his house with...  Mmmm the excitement

    If thats all you can imagine doing in a pve game you need more experience and a greater imagination

    Since you have an idea how much experience and imagination or lack thereof from my one post, why dont you help me out here, Ill start...

    Exploration

    Structure creation

    Fighting A.I scripts

    There, now your turn... what else is there to do?

    Good for you.  Those are the big ones.  Yes all those things can, should and frequently are done in pve sandboxes.  Since you can imagine things other than a knight picking flowers, why did you state that in what was obviously a sarcastic post about pve sandboxes? 

    Are you confused?

    I'll add a big general one.  Every single thing you can do in every themepark MMO in the world can be done in a pve sandbox with the exception of open world pvp.

    edit -with regards to what I can tell about you.  I can only tell what you write, so if you write a very limited answer to a pretty simple question it's logical to believe you are limited.

    Otherwise you wouldn't have written such a pathetically stupid answer when you obviously knew there was more to do.

    *Face Palm*

    I was merely asking if you can think of anymore possible content a PvE sandbox could have. You didnt offer anything, plus you missed that I was comparing a PvE sandbox to a PvP sandbox NOT a PvE sandbox to a Themepark. My sarcasm in the post before was just pointing out the limits of a PvE sandbox. A Sandbox needs PvP or it will be all fluff and no grit....

    and you had the nerve to ask if I was confused .. tsk tsk tsk

     

     

    No.

    You allready stated everything that MMO's have.  A pvp sandbox has

    Exploration

    Structure creation

    Fighting A.I scripts

    And pvp.

    A pve sandbox has

    Exploration

    Structure creation

    Fighting A.I scripts

     

    "A Sandbox needs PvP or it will be all fluff and no grit...."

    Dumbest statement in regards to sandboxes.

    So yes Are you confused?

    There are several pve sandbox games out there allready, no none are very successfull but most have a great deal of depth to them (depth meaning meaningfull choices).

    I also wasn't comparing a pve sandbox to a themepark, I only pointed out that it can have as many features.  So name a feature besides pvp and a pve can have it.

    You allready had the major points though.

    So no. 

    A sandbox does not need pvp.  It can have just as much "grit" without it.

    Heck atitd has more meaning than most of the pvp sandboxes.

    Read through these

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/349518

     

    PvP definitely isn't required; however, you are cutting out a huge section of players and moving into a niche market by cutting out PvP.  PvP is very popular.  I don't know why.  It just is. 

    For one, it helps create a community.  We can look at this going back before modern MMOs with Diablo 1 and the like.  There was always a coalescing of players around PKs and antis.  We saw this in UO.  Many modern MMOs try to factionize it.  There's nothing wrong with this.  If you don't have the PVP, you are going to have to have some just stellar PvE.  It's going to have to be significantly better than the competition or the game is going to have to resign itself to a small niche.

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member Common

    Hopefully, I'll get around to reading all of the posts here, but I would like to say that I hope this thread turns out as good as the famous "Mythical Sandbox Crowd" thread.

     

    That thread was epic!

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by marsh9799
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by General-Zod
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by General-Zod
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
     

     

     

    No.

    You allready stated everything that MMO's have.  A pvp sandbox has

    Exploration

    Structure creation

    Fighting A.I scripts

    And pvp.

    A pve sandbox has

    Exploration

    Structure creation

    Fighting A.I scripts

     

    "A Sandbox needs PvP or it will be all fluff and no grit...."

    Dumbest statement in regards to sandboxes.

    So yes Are you confused?

    There are several pve sandbox games out there allready, no none are very successfull but most have a great deal of depth to them (depth meaning meaningfull choices).

    I also wasn't comparing a pve sandbox to a themepark, I only pointed out that it can have as many features.  So name a feature besides pvp and a pve can have it.

    You allready had the major points though.

    So no. 

    A sandbox does not need pvp.  It can have just as much "grit" without it.

    Heck atitd has more meaning than most of the pvp sandboxes.

    Read through these

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/349518

     

    PvP definitely isn't required; however, you are cutting out a huge section of players and moving into a niche market by cutting out PvP.  PvP is very popular.  I don't know why.  It just is. 

    For one, it helps create a community.  We can look at this going back before modern MMOs with Diablo 1 and the like.  There was always a coalescing of players around PKs and antis.  We saw this in UO.  Many modern MMOs try to factionize it.  There's nothing wrong with this.  If you don't have the PVP, you are going to have to have some just stellar PvE.  It's going to have to be significantly better than the competition or the game is going to have to resign itself to a small niche.

    No argument there, except for the niche part.  I think a pve focused sandbox would be more popular than a pvp focused sandbox.  However you are a right that a game that successfully melds both will be even more popular.

    Pvp does do all of those things.  However pve can too:  Community events, community building projects.  Istaria had mines and dungeons that the group would build and 2 major events where the community freed races that were then playable.

    So the pve doesn't have to be stellar it just has to be there, too many sandboxes just don't have content at all.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by marsh9799
    Furthermore, Occam's Razor is not a logical argument.

    Nor is dicto simpliciter.

    "Players love to talk about world PvP and how much they like it.  They don't."

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • ThaneUlfgarThaneUlfgar Akron, OHPosts: 283Member
    Yay semantics.
  • KarahandrasKarahandras Sible HedinghamPosts: 1,676Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    Is there any proof that sandboxes are popular at all?

     

    The only two MMOs with growing subs and companies behind them are sandbox MMOs (Eve, Darkfall)
     

    And Eve grew to be... only a little more than the average themepark.  And Darkfall, which just released will grow to be... a little less than the average themepark.

    Developer choice - make game A sell 1-2 million on release and then drop to 50-500k players and sustain that.

                                            or Game B - sell 40-100k and raise to 50-500k and sustain that.

    hahahah oh man you wish that themepark games had 500k subs. Age of Conan would DIE for that much. All of them would.

     Several do have near 500k subs.  and I said 50-500 which pretty much all of them have.

    Well there's tor currently(if only because of the expansion).  What are the others?

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon ParisPosts: 2,083Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by free2play

    Age of Wushu is a rebranding of a Chinese Sand box that is a decade old and while i don't have a problem with them having their moment in the sun, the game didn't really offer anything new. It came in as a sandbox and got a lot of attention just on that merit alone.

     

    Sand Box MMO's are in demand. SWG proved it, Age of Wushu confirms it. The trouble being, they always seem to die a quick and horrible death because someone decided Sand Box means PvP in a do whatever the hell you want fashion and people get bullied out of them.

    Lol, Age Of  Wushu has 15-20million players and most of them in Asia meaning China.

    Age Of Wushu hasn't attracted those players because it's a hybrid MMO it's because of what the actual game is based on wuxia, it's the actual lore that is the pull in Asia. In the west it is more of the type of game it is..ie the hybrid features of the game.

    As for nothing new, really! are you kidding me?

    Name another mmo with the offline system that Age Of Wushu has, nope i'm not talking about gaining XP while off line because in Age Of Wushu your character stays online as an NPC.

    Name another mmo that has the kidnapping system of Age Of Wushu.

    Name another mmo that has the character alteration that the castration skills brings.

    Spying and patrolling system that is actually built into the game.

    A whole marriage system that is also built into the game.

    Dungeons that have bosses calling on actual players to fight alongside them against player trying to complete the dungeon, seriously name me another mmo that has this.

    I could go on but let's start with the things i mentioned.

    And remember that AOW released in China before Archeage was released anywhere but i wont mention the court system, player policing system and prison system even though the game released before ArcheAge.

    Either you haven't played the game, i mean actually got passed the tutorial and played the game over a length of time or you really know nothing about the game.

    If these features were in a western mmo we wouldn't hear the last of it, can you imagine the fan love if GW2 had these features lol.

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  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon

    Well off the top of my head

    Tor - 500k subs, 2 million players.

    Rift - has ~300k subs

    WoW - 10 million

    Aion Global - has a couple million.  Don't start with the we are talking in the west crap.  They are all played on a global market, including Eve.  Eve only has about 100-200k in NA - it is global.

    Thats just off the top of my head.  I'm sure others can think of many more.

    For between 50-500k? virtually all of them.

    for an idea just look here:

    http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-1.png

    http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png

    They are not up to date, and there are definite questions about it's accuracy but it gives an idea anway. 

     

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

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