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Should MMOs let you have the ability to solo raids?

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  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member

    All you have to do is look at solo friendly mmos to know why solo friendly raids are bad for any game. The multiplayer aspect of most games now days is little more than, if there's two of you in a group everything is so easy the game is boring.

    Do that to a raid and you might as well just take the game off line and sell it as a single player game. There's so little left in these multiplayer games that are actually multiplayer and it looks like solo only players are even going after that. What's next solo pvp ?

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Axehilt

    If they happen to be soloable after outgearing them, go for it.

    But don't waste time specifically making them soloable, because that's time you could spend on features everyone plays, instead of only a tiny handful of players.

    agree

    some games have solo versions of heroic dungeons  (like EQ2)

    but i dont see the need to spend dev time on a solo version of a raid

     

    especially when the raid story serves no purpose after you have done it once

     

  • SarykSaryk Tallulah, LAPosts: 476Member
    No, raid content were made for large groups or it would be called solo content.
  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    I'll talk about WoW for this, since its the longest played MMO I've been a part of and only one I had actual fun with at end game.

     

    In WoW, only two classes can solo raid (or did when I played, that being, Death Knights and Paladins)...these two were (when i played) regarded as the best. However, they can only solo old raids that don't matter anymore. It is a fun challenge, but not much else.

     

    But when WOTLK came out...I couldn't experience the Lich King for myself. Which was really disappointing after playing the Warcraft 3 and expansion. I had to go on Youtube and watch videos of it, which isn't nearly the same.

     

    Why not let one do raids, but get much weaker items than one who would do the same raid in a group? This way, everyone can enjoy the content and not just the very small population that raided in WoW. This would add lots of content in the game for a much larger group of people. This would be true for any MMO that has raiding. The raiders still get their uber items and achievements, soloers get suitable items, but more importantly, get to actually see the story AND the content.

     

    Then everyone wins and experiences the whole game.

    actually in WoW that's quite possible, after some time :)

     

    of corz no class can do the actual raid content solo, but basically every class can do the older raids solo by now (talkig of WoW).

    of cors it's alot easier with selfhealing clasees, but i dont think there is actually any class without a heal by now hehe.

     

     

     

    anyway, as said before, doubt this will ever ber possible for actual raid content. or it wouldn't be raid content but... solo content that you can do in groups too

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Saryk
    No, raid content were made for large groups or it would be called solo content.

    This is what I think. I have no issues with creating high level content for single players or small groups, but they aren't raids.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • pmilespmiles Federal Way, WAPosts: 383Member
    I think all MMOs should be single player games that become exponentially easier if played in a group.  And by group, you must engage in party chat every 5 minutes or you are automatically booted from the group.  We'll break this habit of people wanting to play a single player game online under the guise of social interaction.  They will soon all return to their set-top games where only the silence of NPCs await them.
  • MukeMuke BredaPosts: 2,172Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp

     anyone who soloed a BC raid at level 85+ did not have anywhere near the experience doing the raid at level 70 provided.

    On the other hand; I used to play WOW for a short while when I want easy/casual fun when EVE is my main MMO.

    Like I said, I sub for 1-2 months till I go back to EVE 'fulltime' and I cannot join a guild as they require me to devote all my free time to their progression and they want me to be in there raiding like 6x/week.

    I have a family + a fulltime job + other hobbies too.

    Taking that into mind it is fun to -finally- go 1 on 1 vs that epic Onyxia, Blackwing, Naxx, BC bosses, WOTLK, although being lvl 85-90, because otherwise I would never see that content anyway. If this would be made impossible by Blizzard it would be 'too bad, how sad, never mind' because I will never join a wow raid guild.

     

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • SiveriaSiveria Saint John, New BrunswickPosts: 1,200Member Uncommon

    If anything raids need to be made alot harder without the bosses haveing all these preset patterns, totally randomized so its a real test of skill since you never know whats coming, compared to say wow and rift, where you always know whats coming and in the case of rift, it even shows you on the ground where to step to avoid it. least in instances not sure about raids.

    Mmorpg's as it is are already far FAR too soloable, if anything the soloability needs to be drastically reduced, they also need to have raid gear that is actually worth getting, wow, rift, the other clones all the raid gear serves 0 use, I mean other than more raidz what the hell use is it? Can't use it in pvp cuz they stupidly seperate the 2 for the very small pvp playerbase. Insted of making raid gear best gear for pvp, Like it should be. Pvpers will whine but really who cares about them when in most pve mmo's they are a tiny minority.

    MMo devs need to get back making worlds and not these glorified single player games till lv cap. Pretty much every mmo thats come out you can hit cap in a few days, it never was like that till wow, in some games it'd take a month or so to hit level cap, which IMO is how it should be. Stupid worthless cattle called casuals have ruined mmo's into the current cesspool of shit they are currently.

    Since wow, pretty much every single mmo that has come out, has basacally felt like the exact same garbage in a diffrent wrapper. With very little if anything that makes it diffrent from the rest of the clones. Personally, I think wanting more soloability in a genre that is dominated by solo games when its supposed to be a group thing is a bad idea.

    Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

    A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

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    Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  • SupportPlayerMMSupportPlayerMM Lufkin, TXPosts: 310Member
    no... if you want to solo a raid... player a singleplayer game with hard boss fights.
  • WelshyJTWelshyJT LLANELLIPosts: 28Member Uncommon
    Absolute Nonsense.
  • udonudon Durham, NCPosts: 1,768Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Saryk
    No, raid content were made for large groups or it would be called solo content.


    This is what I think. I have no issues with creating high level content for single players or small groups, but they aren't raids.

     

    Putting aside the specific encounters and rewards themselves and just talking about the story and lore which I know most raiders just click though anyway wouldn't it make sense to give solo, small group players the ability to see the story unfold to it's conclusion as well?  I know most of the EQ2 expansions if you don't raid the story just kind of ends for you at the front door of the first raid.

    One could make a case that if a solo person can defeat a end boss dragon why should it take a raid of people to do the same and I understand that.  I always thought there was a great opportunity here for parallel progression paths though the zones.  Imagine you zone into a secret side entrance of a raid zone solo or in a small group and your mission is to "assist" a NPC raid party fighting the main bosses though secondary objectives?  You still see the story unfold but your viewing it from a different perspective.

  • OziiusOziius Baltimore, MDPosts: 1,388Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    I'll talk about WoW for this, since its the longest played MMO I've been a part of and only one I had actual fun with at end game.

     

    In WoW, only two classes can solo raid (or did when I played, that being, Death Knights and Paladins)...these two were (when i played) regarded as the best. However, they can only solo old raids that don't matter anymore. It is a fun challenge, but not much else.

     

    But when WOTLK came out...I couldn't experience the Lich King for myself. Which was really disappointing after playing the Warcraft 3 and expansion. I had to go on Youtube and watch videos of it, which isn't nearly the same.

     

    Why not let one do raids, but get much weaker items than one who would do the same raid in a group? This way, everyone can enjoy the content and not just the very small population that raided in WoW. This would add lots of content in the game for a much larger group of people. This would be true for any MMO that has raiding. The raiders still get their uber items and achievements, soloers get suitable items, but more importantly, get to actually see the story AND the content.

     

    Then everyone wins and experiences the whole game.

    Wasn't that the point of the Raid finder?

  • OziiusOziius Baltimore, MDPosts: 1,388Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SavageHorizon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Savage
    Yeah but vg doesn't have pvp

    Play DF then, thing is their are games out there that have what people claim they want, don't moan about it because you or they chose to play games like GW2 or NW.

    You don't want instances but you want PVP, why are you not playing DFUW?

    This is not a good argument. I would be playing Vanguard if it had a PvP server. The reason it's not a good argument is simply the fact that they are two different games. Besides the lack of instances, they don't have a ton in common. I love the races and classes in Vanguard. I don't like the races and new classes in DF. I like the targeting in Vanguard... I don't like running around wildly swing a sword like in DF. 

     

    That's like saying a that a persons who likes bananas should just eat plantains cause they are somewhat similar. 

  • RictisRictis UnknownPosts: 1,231Member Uncommon

    The short answer: NO.

     

    Reason: It goes against the entire point of what the raid was built for. When you make a raid into a one person event, it is now a solo dungeon. I suppose you could make solo raids but then what would the point be of making an MMO, you might as well take away the multiplayer aspect completely seeing as the entire game is already soloable (since you brought up WOW).

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by udon
    Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by Saryk No, raid content were made for large groups or it would be called solo content.
    This is what I think. I have no issues with creating high level content for single players or small groups, but they aren't raids.  
    Putting aside the specific encounters and rewards themselves and just talking about the story and lore which I know most raiders just click though anyway wouldn't it make sense to give solo, small group players the ability to see the story unfold to it's conclusion as well?  I know most of the EQ2 expansions if you don't raid the story just kind of ends for you at the front door of the first raid.

    One could make a case that if a solo person can defeat a end boss dragon why should it take a raid of people to do the same and I understand that.  I always thought there was a great opportunity here for parallel progression paths though the zones.  Imagine you zone into a secret side entrance of a raid zone solo or in a small group and your mission is to "assist" a NPC raid party fighting the main bosses though secondary objectives?  You still see the story unfold but your viewing it from a different perspective.




    I don't have any particular issue against making raid content accessible to players, even solo players. I wouldn't call it raid content though. It's whatever Rift calls their high end solo and duo content.

    Sounds like a lot of work to implement. The encounters would be different depending on whether the player is a tank, healer or dps, not to mention differences in the classes or skill sets of the players' characters. Developers aren't even that keen on writing leveling content for players based on class or role, which is a shame. I don't see them tuning raids or rewriting portions of raids for solo players, regardless of how much fun that stuff would be. Jerks.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • Four0SixFour0Six Missoula, MTPosts: 1,181Member Uncommon

    If you want to play "solo" play a single player game.

    This attitude of "inclusion" for EVERYBODY, and wanting to cater to "solo players" is the root cause of the dissorder of the MMORPG market.

    massive MULTIplayer online, mMo.

    My 2 pennies

  • udonudon Durham, NCPosts: 1,768Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wakygreek

    The short answer: NO.

     

    Reason: It goes against the entire point of what the raid was built for. When you make a raid into a one person event, it is now a solo dungeon. I suppose you could make solo raids but then what would the point be of making an MMO, you might as well take away the multiplayer aspect completely seeing as the entire game is already soloable (since you brought up WOW).

    But the whole game isn't soloable is it?  I don't know about WoW but in EQ2 if you are working on a major story line from a expansion most of the time that will lead you from solo content to small group content to raid content.  The only way to see the story to it's conclusion is to complete all the raids.  It's like giving you a book and tearing out the last 50 pages and telling you the only way to get the rest of it is if you get a group of 24 people together first.

    And the really crazy part is that most raiders don't even consider lore and story to be part of the game.  They spend more time looking at loot drops than paying attention to the story components of the zone.  The people who do care are often the ones that don't have the fortitude for lack of a better word for stomaching what raiding entails. 

  • birdycephonbirdycephon Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 1,314Member
    As much as I think soloing raids sounds stupid, I would have to say yes. There are many different kinds of people, and every one of them has every right to have fun in the game. If soloing raids is what they are into? Then have at it.
  • Four0SixFour0Six Missoula, MTPosts: 1,181Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by birdycephon
    As much as I think soloing raids sounds stupid, I would have to say yes. There are many different kinds of people, and every one of them has every right to have fun in the game. If soloing raids is what theybare into? Then have at it.

    Not good logic, here is why.:

    There are many different kinds of games, for many different kinds of people to play.

    On a more broad spectrum, the "right" one has is the pursuit of happiness, or in this case fun. The "fun" isnt the right, since it is subjective. Meaning that the player has the "right to try a game and see if it is fun", but not to change the mechaincs so they find it fun. Again, there are many many many kinds of games to play not just MMOs.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon

    Why not just have the dungeon/castle/zone... whatever is being raided be like they are in EQ.

    You just go in there, not instanced, with as many people as you like.  You can try to solo it, or bring a hundred people+ if you want.  You just have content and nothing forced raid or group or solo.  Yes at specific levels content is tuned for a particular size group but there is nothing stopping a solo from trying it.

    edit - actually instanced or not, doesn't make a difference.  Just make them zone mirrors, same thing. 

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon ParisPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Praetalus
    Originally posted by SavageHorizon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Savage
    Yeah but vg doesn't have pvp

    Play DF then, thing is their are games out there that have what people claim they want, don't moan about it because you or they chose to play games like GW2 or NW.

    You don't want instances but you want PVP, why are you not playing DFUW?

    This is not a good argument. I would be playing Vanguard if it had a PvP server. The reason it's not a good argument is simply the fact that they are two different games. Besides the lack of instances, they don't have a ton in common. I love the races and classes in Vanguard. I don't like the races and new classes in DF. I like the targeting in Vanguard... I don't like running around wildly swing a sword like in DF. 

     

    That's like saying a that a persons who likes bananas should just eat plantains cause they are somewhat similar. 

    For one, who is arguing lol.

    Let's go back to how the little pow-wow between me and you started lol.

    You mentioned instances, i then reply that Vanguard would be the game to play, right? Once i mentioned that you then replied by saying that Vanguard has no PVP which is right.

    I then replied that if that is the case DF has no instances and it has PVP, right?

    You have just replied with the above that you don't like DF and you like Vanguard races, classes and Vanguards duel targeting system.

    That's fair enough no problems there.

    Now you saying about the bananas is irrelevant because i'm going on the info you are telling me, perhaps making yourself clear about what type of PVP you like would of help the pow-wow progress.

    Oh and you do know the difference between arguing and debating, right?

     

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  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Four0Six
    Originally posted by birdycephon As much as I think soloing raids sounds stupid, I would have to say yes. There are many different kinds of people, and every one of them has every right to have fun in the game. If soloing raids is what theybare into? Then have at it.
    Not good logic, here is why.:

    There are many different kinds of games, for many different kinds of people to play.

    On a more broad spectrum, the "right" one has is the pursuit of happiness, or in this case fun. The "fun" isnt the right, since it is subjective. Meaning that the player has the "right to try a game and see if it is fun", but not to change the mechaincs so they find it fun. Again, there are many many many kinds of games to play not just MMOs.




    If a developer wants to attract and retain more players, and this is a way to do it, then the right thing to do is to implement content that gives solo players access to raid content, so long as doing so doesn't interfere or conflict with their other goals for a game.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • birdycephonbirdycephon Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 1,314Member
    Originally posted by Four0Six

    Originally posted by birdycephon
    As much as I think soloing raids sounds stupid, I would have to say yes. There are many different kinds of people, and every one of them has every right to have fun in the game. If soloing raids is what theybare into? Then have at it.

    Not good logic, here is why.:

    There are many different kinds of games, for many different kinds of people to play.

    On a more broad spectrum, the "right" one has is the pursuit of happiness, or in this case fun. The "fun" isnt the right, since it is subjective. Meaning that the player has the "right to try a game and see if it is fun", but not to change the mechaincs so they find it fun. Again, there are many many many kinds of games to play not just MMOs.

     

    On the contrary, if a company wants to yield the maximum proffit, they would not ailienate a part of their potential playerbase like that.
  • RictisRictis UnknownPosts: 1,231Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by udon
    Originally posted by Wakygreek

    The short answer: NO.

     

    Reason: It goes against the entire point of what the raid was built for. When you make a raid into a one person event, it is now a solo dungeon. I suppose you could make solo raids but then what would the point be of making an MMO, you might as well take away the multiplayer aspect completely seeing as the entire game is already soloable (since you brought up WOW).

    But the whole game isn't soloable is it?  I don't know about WoW but in EQ2 if you are working on a major story line from a expansion most of the time that will lead you from solo content to small group content to raid content.  The only way to see the story to it's conclusion is to complete all the raids.  It's like giving you a book and tearing out the last 50 pages and telling you the only way to get the rest of it is if you get a group of 24 people together first.

    And the really crazy part is that most raiders don't even consider lore and story to be part of the game.  They spend more time looking at loot drops than paying attention to the story components of the zone.  The people who do care are often the ones that don't have the fortitude for lack of a better word for stomaching what raiding entails. 

    Well WoW did not used to be solable, in fact most of the time you needed groups for even normal dungeons and even then you needed to be smart about it. Nowadays twinks make short work of dungeons to the point where they could solo them easily. I don't know if WOW raids are solable yet, I think the older ones you can do with like 2 - 3 people because of the level/gear difference between expansions. But I always felt that dungeons and raids were tools to bring people together, by making them solable it further destroys the community.

  • Four0SixFour0Six Missoula, MTPosts: 1,181Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by birdycephon
    Originally posted by Four0Six
    Originally posted by birdycephon
    As much as I think soloing raids sounds stupid, I would have to say yes. There are many different kinds of people, and every one of them has every right to have fun in the game. If soloing raids is what theybare into? Then have at it.

    Not good logic, here is why.:

    There are many different kinds of games, for many different kinds of people to play.

    On a more broad spectrum, the "right" one has is the pursuit of happiness, or in this case fun. The "fun" isnt the right, since it is subjective. Meaning that the player has the "right to try a game and see if it is fun", but not to change the mechaincs so they find it fun. Again, there are many many many kinds of games to play not just MMOs.

     

    On the contrary, if a company wants to yield the maximum proffit, they would not ailienate a part of their potential playerbase like that.

    Look at Blizzard. They have several different types of games, and arguably yeild "maximum" profits. Hell look at EA, they make tons and tons of different types of games and make tons and tons of money. It should be obvious that instead of making 1 game that caters to the broadest spectrum of players isnt the best plan. The best plan is to make several games accross the entire market.

    The profit argument you pose is a "straw-man", disigned to stray the argument away from the real argument, which is "I don't want to play with the mechanic of a Raid, and I want it changed to my playstyle.". Again this is an inclusionist argument, and inclusionism always yeilds, a weaker system. Like failing to teach kids sportsmanship while they play sports, so they each get a chance to swing at the ball, or not keeping score during the games.

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