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Is Viel Stealth a unique idea to CU or is MJ one of the greatest hypers of all time?
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,387
The way CU developers revealed the Stealth Mechanics it seem like they were doing more in the department of explaining the lore behind the mechanics rater than the mechanics itself.
the way I read it,
Stealth classes stealth (aka enter viel lore wise)
and certain classes have better Stealth detection skills as well as placed traps that can effect stealthed phased figures. Sounds very similar if not the same as WoW's Hunter vs Rogue combat down to the core.
but maybe there is more to it. Is the Viel really an unique feature that is an original idea on stealth, or is it just lore explaining traditional stealth mechanics?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
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The walkers in the veil wont just be seeing the world as they would while they arent in the veil. It will likely be distorted in some way to represent the shift to another plane. Hence why MJ has said the archers with their camo abilities would work better for scouting in a lot of circumstances. The potential to move through/over walls in the veil is also different than traditional stealth.
Are the details mainly lore? Sure. But I also think you'll find the playstyle interacting differently with other classes from how it would with the more traditional mechanics.
Also you should get hired by a 24 hour news network based on your talent for excessively dramatic headlines.
AHH - done before - Riftstalkers in Rift. That is hwo they are able to move around. Call it stealth, call it what you will - different name same idea.
CU KS was full of hyperbole - enough to fill many semi's - just my opinion.
I do hope the people who back the game get what they want - not holding my breath.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
I have reported the phrase "overdramatic hyperbole" to the Department of Redundancy Department.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
If ever there was a phrase to describe the CU Backers (as a whole) and the game this is it.
Hey....let me just have the same exact mechanic but penalize you and change the name so you accept it and it also sounds like I'm listening....done.
Stealth is stealth, if I can't see you and you can see me (even if it just looks like you're on acid) it doesn't change the *advantage*.
The best part is he actually made stealth better by allowing them to ALSO go up/over/through/inside/around/divide walls and the sheep revered and rejoiced this decision as if it won't have ridiculous balancing consequences.
Oh right....you're penalized by being grouped up....so instead of being close together in the veil you basically just get on TS, veil through the wall, and regroup.
Yeah....well played MJ, that's the beauty of idol-worship and short-sightedness.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
The proposed stealth mechanic is not unique, nor has it claimed to be unique by MJ. It is unique to MMO's. FPS's have had the mechanic, which is best described as another dimension where Veilwalkers can see visibles, but visibles cannot see who is in the Veil. Veilwalkers would be able to see each other in the Veil (stealth). This video has a lot of the proposed mechanics and the reasoning behind them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWQWvcvxOjI
http://teamriot.org
I'm certain no one here is confused with what the idea behind it is or the principles behind it.
I did and have been following it, I'm just amused with how easily most of the CU community is dissuaded from their "stealth-hate" by a simple renaming.
MJ is brilliant, which is why I can't wait for CU and I am quite sure it will be amazing, but I can't help but point out things like this.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
Am I doing it right?
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
I believe so.
Eh, I think this is where you miss the mark, a bit. In DAoC (and other games) people didn't dislike STEALTH, they disliked STEALTHERS. They disliked beginning every fight with an Assassin or Archer at half health, before they even knew what was happening. And they HATED the ridiculously long stun that came with Creeping Death... and I can't say I disagreed with them.
Now, this frustration was largely blamed on the Stealth mechanic, but I think that was misplaced. If you remove the stun and mitigate the huge opening damage from Critshot and Perforate Artery, I don't think anyone would give two sh*ts about Stealth.
The VW/VS paradigm isn't just a "rename" of Stealth, it appears to be a different vision of the Stealther Classes, altogether... no stuns, no huge openers from stealth. And I think that's exactly what the majority of the community wants... with the exception of the old-school Stealthers, of course.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
"Is Viel Stealth a unique idea to CU or is MJ one of the greatest hypers of all time?"
Can't it be both?
obvious joke aside, it sounds like a mini-game around stealth. Maybe not completely original when you look at it like that, but still room for originality in the implementation. Really, the development is just beginning and I'm sure will learn more specifics about the actual mechanics/implementation as time goes on.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I always failed to see the difference between what you have layer out and casters bolting, nuking, and throwing stuns, mezz, roots into the battle
I imagine the Veil will work as a combination of the teleport transport from Champions Online and the Ghostwalk sequences from the game Prey - only with restricted vision.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7pxBPm64WY
Edit - oh and as I said - balance will be critical here - this could easily be a game breaker.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Well, everyone keeps saying that this mechanic has been done in an MMO when it hasn't exactly, so I assumed a lot of people either don't really understand it or details of the system don't matter to them. DAoC, Warhammer, GW2, WoW, AoC, Aion, etc. certainly didn't have this system.
http://teamriot.org
i think because there is 3 threads on this topic now, I think a sizable enough population is clearly saying they want this mechanic to be carefully handled.
Despite being pretty active in this topic, I am actually getting a good vibe from MJ's veil idea and its extra plain idea. I like the idea that people in veil can be seen by others in the veil, in effect this keeps the veil classes from being totally "single player"
I suggested that players who are dead also get sent to the veil to walk back to a rez point, while a ghost player would be very weak, they could also interact with veil classes in some small way.
Reading all of these posts about stealth (in the other thread as well) I'm wondering if I'm the only one who actually watched the videos and read the interviews, or if I am completely misunderstanding everything.
I understood the mechanic as being "One world, two realities." One reality is the real world, the other reality is the Veil. Instead of turning invisible in the real world like every other MMO, they rift (or shift?) into the other reality which is inhabited by the creatures of the veil, and other veilwalkers of course.
This would basically make each battle a battle that occurs in two realities, rather than one reality where the "stealthers" just turn invisible somehow. Normal characters and Veilwalkers each have to worry about players within and without, in both the veil and the real world.
Back to the OP question,
1. Not the first to think of stealthers shifting into an alternate place, but definitely a unique idea in and of itself.
2. One of the greater hypers perhaps, but definitely not the greatest.
Except RS had no stealth and just blinked about. You could say they were in another dimension all you want, but you never got to see it.
That one goes to Richard Garriot IMO.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
Well on the Kickstarter comments, I've seen people try to come up with ways to use the Veil for all sorts of other game mechanics such as rezzing and CC. So I would say some of them are getting a bit carried away as a result of the Veil stealth concept.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
MJ himself is actually the one who suggested the potential to use the veil for a new form of CC. You could be temporarily removed from the immediate fight without being immobilized and potentially still be fighting against enemy players who are in the veil at the same time.
Involving it in rezzing is a little more far-fetched, but not impossible.
Its certainly a very important concept in the basic lore of the game, so I have little doubt it will be used somehow in a number of different ways even if it ends up being altered from its current form. So no, its not just a "lore covering" for stealth.
Is it "like" this or that or whatever? Sure, so is everything ever. The first guy to make a wheel was just blatantly ripping off rounded stones. But there hasnt been a mechanic quite like this in this style of game before. Its not "groundbreaking", but it is original.