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MMORPG's released in 1997 and 2003 far more advanced than anything afterwards?

2

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by iixviiiix

    But

    People need to stop call those game "MMORPG" , it not MMO anymore.

    Please let "MMO" term die in peace.

    What called MMORPG now are online RPG , RPG play online , not MMOs anymore.

    That is too much world. how many websites have to change their text?

    Just redefine it. Massive = can match with a massive number of people (like LoL). Then we are good.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,899Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dauzqul
    Originally posted by Instigator-Jones
    Utter garbage; MMOs are evolving all the time. Wax poetic for the past... Yes... Claim 'pure truth' ... Nonsense.

    When people talk about EverQuest, Ultima Online, DAoC, SWG, we mainly hear good things.

    When people talk about AoC, WAR, STO, CO, SWTOR etc...  it's 95% negative.

    Unless we go back to when those games were in the spotlight. I wish SWG's OG forum was still up to answer to posts like this.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • tixylixtixylix gfff, TNPosts: 1,207Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Onomas

    Phasing destroyed social aspect and interaction with players.... oh yeah thats a good one. Sorry but ill never touch a game with phasing.

    Phasing can be done in a non disruptive manner

     

    when EQ2 launched in 2004 -- it had phasing

     

    EQ2s version of phasing:

    players were able to see NPCs and objects that other players could not (depending on quest progression)  but EQ2 players could always see other players

     

    EQ2 also got voice over work done right, all done in game when you had full control of your character. Not the stupid boring cutscenes of SWTOR where the rest of the world is silent and boring.

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon

    Onomas and MMOPapa, thanks for the great posts. /agreed.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • MMOPapaMMOPapa Strasburg, VAPosts: 121Member
    Originally posted by Arclan

    Onomas and MMOPapa, thanks for the great posts. /agreed.

    You flatter me. Thank you for the compliment. image

    image

  • ConnmacartConnmacart OsloPosts: 681Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dauzqul
    Originally posted by Instigator-Jones
    Utter garbage; MMOs are evolving all the time. Wax poetic for the past... Yes... Claim 'pure truth' ... Nonsense.

    When people talk about EverQuest, Ultima Online, DAoC, SWG, we mainly hear good things.

    When people talk about AoC, WAR, STO, CO, SWTOR etc...  it's 95% negative.

    Problem is it's the same people doing the praising and hating. Give it 10 more years and this list will have shifted to the next set of games. Things are always better back in the day... Well these people reminiscing just brush over all the bad things that went on as well. Plus people get older and focuses change. Things I used to like are no longer on my radar now, but at the same time going back to them now would not work. Please just stop with the rose colored glasses tainting everything.

  • rockin_uforockin_ufo St. Paul, MNPosts: 377Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Connmacart
    Originally posted by Dauzqul
    Originally posted by Instigator-Jones
    Utter garbage; MMOs are evolving all the time. Wax poetic for the past... Yes... Claim 'pure truth' ... Nonsense.

    When people talk about EverQuest, Ultima Online, DAoC, SWG, we mainly hear good things.

    When people talk about AoC, WAR, STO, CO, SWTOR etc...  it's 95% negative.

    Problem is it's the same people doing the praising and hating. Give it 10 more years and this list will have shifted to the next set of games. Things are always better back in the day... Well these people reminiscing just brush over all the bad things that went on as well. Plus people get older and focuses change. Things I used to like are no longer on my radar now, but at the same time going back to them now would not work. Please just stop with the rose colored glasses tainting everything.

    Except that won't be happening if all these MMOs keep sucking. How many people are actually enjoying some new innovative MMO right now? Whose gonna look back and say "Yes, I miss the days when games were like SWTOR and GW2"...I don't see it. Maybe GW2 in a small sense, but any other themepark? I highly doubt it.

    Whenever i step outside, somebody claims to see the light
    It seems to me that all of us have lost our patience.
    'cause everyone thinks they're right,
    And nobody thinks that there just might
    Be more than one road to our final destination--

  • redcappredcapp brook, NYPosts: 722Member
    Originally posted by Instigator-Jones
    Utter garbage; MMOs are evolving all the time. Wax poetic for the past... Yes... Claim 'pure truth' ... Nonsense.

    What modern MMO has taken what UO began and evolved it?

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member
    Originally posted by Instigator-Jones
    Utter garbage; MMOs are evolving all the time. Wax poetic for the past... Yes... Claim 'pure truth' ... Nonsense.

    Incorrect, Graphics are evolving all the time and little else. Combat may be finally evolving after almost 2 decades but that does little to replace all the mechanics and features lost along the way. 

    Don't get me wrong, I enjoy some mechanics and features presented in newer MMO's but they are mostly just trying to bring back some of the old school mechanics and features. 

    Dynamic events are trying to go back to the days of live events that were held in MMO's. 

    GM's, Developers, and EMs (Event Moderators) would actually log into Ultima Online and run events with a story and act it out. They still to this day run live events. When Stygian Abyss launched they held live events that had a story line that led up to the launch of Stygian Abyss that tied into it and made it all part of the games lore. 

    While Dynamic Events are a bit of a nod to this I don't consider them an evolution of this. 

    Same goes for the foundry in Neverwinter. 

     

    These "new" and "revolutionary" mechanics and features are attempts at doing things older MMO's did but they are trying to find cheaper ways and ways that require less work for them to do them. 

     

    We've lost a great deal of openess and freedom in our MMO's over the years. 

    We've lost a great deal of interactions with the world in our MMO's over the years. 

    We've lost a great deal of story (Sorry, SWTOR's story is ok and all but it's nothing compaired to live events and deep lore and such) in our MMO's over the years. 

     

    I remember logging into UO and going to a library that I use to love on Lake Superior. The owner of the house had taken and copied numerous real life books into books in game. This was back long before Ereaders lol. I would log in and go to his house, buy a book and sit down in a chair in game and read while listening to Ultima's music. 

     

    Newer MMO's do look better, but they have not evolved in many other ways. They've actually devolved a great deal. We've lost far more than we've gained. 

     

    Hell, MMO's today struggle to offer 50 vs. 50 PvP most of the time and when they can do 50+vs.50+ it is a "feature" even though we had hundreds engaging in both PvP and PvE within close proximity back in the late 90s on dial up. Massive wars were fought in PvP, Devs gave us numerous live events where hundreds of mobs would attack a city that we had to defend and there were god knows how many players at these events. 

    We've lost the ability to even put things on the ground in an MMO. 

    We've gained graphics and combat and lost the world in the process. How is that evolving? 

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,288Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by Instigator-Jones
    Utter garbage; MMOs are evolving all the time. Wax poetic for the past... Yes... Claim 'pure truth' ... Nonsense.

    Incorrect, Graphics are evolving all the time and little else. Combat may be finally evolving after almost 2 decades but that does little to replace all the mechanics and features lost along the way. 

    Don't get me wrong, I enjoy some mechanics and features presented in newer MMO's but they are mostly just trying to bring back some of the old school mechanics and features. 

    Dynamic events are trying to go back to the days of live events that were held in MMO's. 

    GM's, Developers, and EMs (Event Moderators) would actually log into Ultima Online and run events with a story and act it out. They still to this day run live events. When Stygian Abyss launched they held live events that had a story line that led up to the launch of Stygian Abyss that tied into it and made it all part of the games lore. 

    While Dynamic Events are a bit of a nod to this I don't consider them an evolution of this. 

    Same goes for the foundry in Neverwinter. 

     

    These "new" and "revolutionary" mechanics and features are attempts at doing things older MMO's did but they are trying to find cheaper ways and ways that require less work for them to do them. 

     

    We've lost a great deal of openess and freedom in our MMO's over the years. 

    We've lost a great deal of interactions with the world in our MMO's over the years. 

    We've lost a great deal of story (Sorry, SWTOR's story is ok and all but it's nothing compaired to live events and deep lore and such) in our MMO's over the years. 

     

    I remember logging into UO and going to a library that I use to love on Lake Superior. The owner of the house had taken and copied numerous real life books into books in game. This was back long before Ereaders lol. I would log in and go to his house, buy a book and sit down in a chair in game and read while listening to Ultima's music. 

     

    Newer MMO's do look better, but they have not evolved in many other ways. They've actually devolved a great deal. We've lost far more than we've gained. 

     

    Hell, MMO's today struggle to offer 50 vs. 50 PvP most of the time and when they can do 50+vs.50+ it is a "feature" even though we had hundreds engaging in both PvP and PvE within close proximity back in the late 90s on dial up. Massive wars were fought in PvP, Devs gave us numerous live events where hundreds of mobs would attack a city that we had to defend and there were god knows how many players at these events. 

    We've lost the ability to even put things on the ground in an MMO. 

    We've gained graphics and combat and lost the world in the process. How is that evolving? 

    This..

    Recent MMO's have to put people in different 'phases' just to cope with numbers, its stupid. Eve Online can handle thousands of players in 1 area fighting each other, and yet most other games struggle to even handle 100 in the same area, if only game engine mechanics had kept pace with graphics.. i'd go one step further and say that any MMO that has PVP incorporated within it, must be able to handle at least 50 vs 50 or even 50 vs 50 vs 50 if its multiple faction based PVP,

    though personally i think even that number is way too low, why can't we have battles involving 100's of players any more, if games are truly advancing as some people are claiming, why are we constantly getting less and less ? image

     

  • dgarbinidgarbini San Jose, CAPosts: 185Member

    This has happened in almost all genres of gaming hasn't it.  We have gained pretty avatars but lost game play along the way.  I find it very sad that games today are not focused on the actual 'game' part anymore.  Would would imagine that you bought a video game to...play...a game.  You either have wannabe failed movie producers like David Cage (and similar) or just full out fraud money grabs.

     

    Anyways I agree with the OP, to me a good MMO is, a massive world, highly interactive, lots of things to do, a long term experience, more about the journey then the 'end game', lots of social aspects, highly complex systems, and so on.  I would a kin it almost more to a sim world then a rpg.  None of these are present in modern MMO's anymore.  And to those that think this is just 'rose colored glasses' why are most modern MMO failing?  Every year game worlds shrink, complexity lessens, social aspects diminish, if that is the trade for graphics then I say take them back.  If MMOs continue down this path of 'evolution' all we will have left is menial tasks and a few movies to break them up.

  • Sigurd57Sigurd57 *, IAPosts: 347Member Uncommon

    Early MMOs were a different beast all together.  The biggest reasons?  The quality of gamers ... and Money.  

     

    Back in the late 90's early 2000's Online games weren't "Big Business" yet, it was a wild niche for the minority lucky souls who actually had internet connections and comptuers capable of connecting and playing.  Back when UO was all the rage, I was finishing Highschool and on to College.  Most the people at that time that I knew, didn't give 2 shits about a computer, internet, etc..  Our "Online Culture" was preserved then for the 'nerdy', and those who appreciated what it was.  The online world was a different place, full of a different type of people than we have today.  (That's a whole different topic..)   Sadly, a game like UO couldn't exist in today's market, the griefers, the screming e-peen kids, the instant gratification crowd, that really never existed back then..  But it's all the rage now.   Could you imagine what UO would have been like in '97 if today's WoW community were in it?   We'd all have a much different recollection of events and how the game played. 

     

    The problem is, once the "Online Community" grew, along with it came the trash.  And that trash, brought with it the downfall of a genre.  Now everything has to be designed to hold your hand, limit your actions and guide your way... Why?  because today's average gamer couldn't handle the responsibility of an open PvP world with consequence, or freedom of choice and options.  They'd either exploit it, use it to grief to their maximum potential, or simple bitch moan and complain on the companies forums for any reason they can think of..  Which in turn, influences development... 

     

    So see, a true Sandbox, as we like to fondly recall of our beloved old games, can't exist in today's 'main stream' market, and every investor or came company knows this.

     

    Additionally, the companies who made the games back then did so with a passion and drive to make an awesome game.  But now that online gaming is a multi-billion dollar business, and everybody wants their piece of the pie, it's all about the quantity over quality, following whatever carbon-copy formula that will have the quickest turn around for the most profit.   It's not about the games anymore, it's about the $$. 

     

    It's sadly a different world now.  UO was my life for the longest time, SWG took over when it released, yet sadly, those games, that gameplay, that level of depth are gone, we'll never see them again, because today's gamer, despite the minority of us who scream for the glory days, wants the instant gratification, sensless shallow gameplay, and mindless nonsene that has plagued the genre for years.   It won't change, because there's still too much money to be made off those gamers who don't know any different than what's available today.

    Hey TSW Players http://www.unfair.co/ for Mission guides, Lore Locations and stuff....

  • melenonemelenone seminole, FLPosts: 25Member
    you should try age of wushu then....might touch your button.personally i like easy stuff in mmos im getting old
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member

    100% true. UO even had an ecology for god sake.

     

    If something like SWTOR or AOC were released in 2001 it would have been laughed off the market, but our standards have fallen through the floor.

  • sanshi44sanshi44 BrisbanePosts: 1,085Member Uncommon
    +1 to OP complatly agree.
  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,423Member Uncommon

    Well most of it is true but some MMO's have introduced some new ideas.Yes FFXi came about in 2003 and did introduce several unique ideas,like the language translator has still yet to be matched.Sub class is another.

    Eq2 was the first to bring in nicer graphics,lighting,it makes a big difference at least to myself because the whole reason we have video cards is to show off GPU graphics.

    However on the basis of MOST principles,yes the games of old already implemented them,other games now are not even trying to implement anything,just cheaper game designs.

    Now when i say cheaper someone might say,well SWTOR cost 200 million,i mean cheaper as in what they are doing,anyone can just spend a ton of money,what you do with it matters most.

    I just talked about Blizzard's massive amount of money they are making from Wow.Blizzard are making multi millions to do what?NOTHING,they use ancient tech,design low quality models,textures even some effects are pretty bad.

    Right now there is so much tech out there,games have no excuse for not stepping up the genre,they can literally make real living worlds if they wanted to.


    Samoan Diamond

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon

    +1 OP

    Hopefully over the next few years we will start seeing some of the kickstarter funded games getting released and we will have a good mmorpg again..

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    If they were so awesome and advanced, why did they explode into popularity after 2003?

    Oh nevermind. Its not like this thread was made for discussion. Only to start a flamewar.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sigurd57

     

     

    So see, a true Sandbox, as we like to fondly recall of our beloved old games, can't exist in today's 'main stream' market, and every investor or came company knows this.

     

     

    Oh yeah that's why a butt load of them are being released/in production more now than in the past 10 years combined.

    I can think of 15 off the top of my head that look great, full of features, and player creativity is required.

    The market is changing because it hasn't done anything in 5 years but mass produce garbage. And i do believe WOW's coat tail is about worn off.  Finally some developers are making a change.

     

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,635Member Uncommon
    I wouldn't say more advanced, especially when you look back at the UIs, but certainly more diverse.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • delete5230delete5230 Posts: 2,942Member Uncommon

    Good post OP.............In fact one of the best post in a long time !

    We have crap now.  They are not even mmos anymore, just solo games with others on line.  Vanguard was the last of the real mmos, too bad about the early release, and the bad coding used from EQ2.

     

     

    Phase one of down hill - Players screeming for better graphics. This took away from quality of game play, to much time spent in something that was un-duable.

    Phase two of down hill - Auto everything, Dungeon finders, fast easy leveling, and advertising all events instead of finding things on your own. Worlds became small and the start of 30 day mmos.

    Phase three of down hill - Cash shops, F2P, P2W

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by ThaneUlfgar
    Subjective post is subjective. Also, I think the rose colored glasses metaphor applies here.

    Selective memories don't really handle comparing opening-day feature sets very well. We like to compare decade-old games to something that opened yesterday.

    And we know that fanboy appreciation for any given title makes it the best game evar.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member
    The fact that I enjoyed WoW more than any other MMO I've played does not make the statement "WoW did things the best" anything more than opinion.

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • VocadiVocadi SH, MIPosts: 205Member

    I honestly feel that the exploded popularity of the MMO genre is going to result in a renaissance of sorts. Look at the mass amounts of MMO games on the market right now. How many of those games are actually of a caliber that would support a massive number of player subscriptions? Most of the games that pop up fizzle out after a year or so.

    Alot of the mainstream gamers who came to the MMO scene after or during WoW may never have experienced a cohesive online community that the older games fostered. Is it possible that if a game happened on the scene that was the right blend of content to appeal to a variety of gamers, it would be the next best thing? Potentially the new age of the MMO?  I believe so, its only a matter of time.

    I also know that I am so sick of the rose colored glasses idiom and feel its a real cop out to slap that on a statement and call it a day. As an old school gamer I appreciate how the genre started but I would never want to relive that exact experience. I am looking forward to the possibilities and potentials of an evolving MMORPG genre.

    image
  • baphametbaphamet omaha, NEPosts: 2,836Member Uncommon

    mmo's have become more video games and less virtual RPG worlds, i would not call them more advanced from a technical standpoint though lol

    people seem to forget that mmo's from 10 years ago....all mmo's......had a niche player base that catered to role players and fans of real RPG's like pnp table tops and MUD's

    today's mmo's cater to the every day average joe console/ single player RPG gamer.

    they are actually far more technically advanced with their single player style scripting and ultra themepark content.

    i think there is a clear difference between the two styles of mmo's and there are some games in development that cater to both styles of gamers right now, which i a good thing IMO

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