Noooo no no no. Don't give up hope lol! I know how you feel, i really do. I personally was talking with a friend over steam, yes ranting, about current mmos lately and how they are being designed right.
I was floored. Not only was it JUST what i was telling him games should be like.. but it had personally met ideas ive had for mmos for the last 10 years.
So here we are. Im going to make a seperate thread on this but Im going to ask you guys please take a look at it at the very least. I wont blindly ask you to support it, but i ask you give it consideration and watch the vid on the page. Thats all i can ask.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
I understand that some "old fart posters" can get a little carried away with their desire, but a little empathy (recall when you hated the current MMOs out way back then) could go a long way. I can not speak for the others, but I definitely feel put on the defensive with every thread like this one. Some "Old Fart" posters are no better, I know. The big difference is this: *You* have games you enjoy playing. "Old Farts" do not. What is the point of rubbing it in?
What is the point of whining about it endlessly?
The Red text is the point I always come back to. I have, read, and been keeping up with the entire thread. AlBQuirky, I have enjoyed you posts and I agree with everything you've said. Nariusseldon, you really shouldn't answer a question with a question, it's rude. I'll try to answer from my point of view anyway.
It's not whining as much as it is having a conversation. We are in a position where we would really like an MMORPG that plays a certain way. This is a website called, MMORPG.COM, so these forums seem like a good place to voice our opinions and, yes, also reminisce about how much fun we used to have. If it comes off as whining, then the best thing to do would be to avoid the topic. There are plenty of topics that I completely avoid because I know from the title that I disagree with the subject. There's one on the front page right now about getting rid of the virtual world in some games. I'm just not touching that because it's the opposite of my personal tastes. By all means, chime in and help out with your insights, but I would never purposely sit and listen to something that I consider "whining" when I can just up and leave.
I hope that clears it up a little.
Now, pretty please, with sugar on top, answer the question. Why do you feel the need to pour salt in the wound?
wait .. you whine excessively .. that is ok. Now if people express a different opinion . that they enjoy current MMOS, that is not?
Why do you feel the need to play the victim?
(And yes, i am answering with a question, just like what you did).
I understand that some "old fart posters" can get a little carried away with their desire, but a little empathy (recall when you hated the current MMOs out way back then) could go a long way. I can not speak for the others, but I definitely feel put on the defensive with every thread like this one. Some "Old Fart" posters are no better, I know. The big difference is this: *You* have games you enjoy playing. "Old Farts" do not. What is the point of rubbing it in?
What is the point of whining about it endlessly?
The Red text is the point I always come back to. I have, read, and been keeping up with the entire thread. AlBQuirky, I have enjoyed you posts and I agree with everything you've said. Nariusseldon, you really shouldn't answer a question with a question, it's rude. I'll try to answer from my point of view anyway.
It's not whining as much as it is having a conversation. We are in a position where we would really like an MMORPG that plays a certain way. This is a website called, MMORPG.COM, so these forums seem like a good place to voice our opinions and, yes, also reminisce about how much fun we used to have. If it comes off as whining, then the best thing to do would be to avoid the topic. There are plenty of topics that I completely avoid because I know from the title that I disagree with the subject. There's one on the front page right now about getting rid of the virtual world in some games. I'm just not touching that because it's the opposite of my personal tastes. By all means, chime in and help out with your insights, but I would never purposely sit and listen to something that I consider "whining" when I can just up and leave.
I hope that clears it up a little.
Now, pretty please, with sugar on top, answer the question. Why do you feel the need to pour salt in the wound?
wait .. you whine excessively .. that is ok. Now if people express a different opinion . that they enjoy current MMOS, that is not?
Why do you feel the need to play the victim?
(And yes, i am answering with a question, just like what you did).
I think we need to ditch the word "whining"- really.
Just because I disagree with your complaints and opinions does not mean you are "whining" and vice versa. Thats a cop out.
Discussing, disagreeing and expressing opinions as to why something failed or what something should do or what you WOULD like to see is not a whine. That is an attack IMHO and has no part in debate/discussion.
I think we need to ditch the word "whining"- really.
Just because I disagree with your complaints and opinions does not mean you are "whining" and vice versa. Thats a cop out.
Discussing, disagreeing and expressing opinions as to why something failed or what something should do or what you WOULD like to see is not a whine. That is an attack IMHO and has no part in debate/discussion.
If viewing MMO positively is "rubbing it in" .. then complaining about it is "whining". Two sides of the same coin.
People who have a low tolerance for pain in entertainment are not a sub species of less evolved humans nor are they a lesser type of unsophisticated MMO fan. They're perhaps just those who haven't forgotten that we play for fun.
We are certainly different and I'm not saying anyone is more or less "evolved" It's just different ways that we find enjoyment in life. That's okay in my book. I'm certainly not trying to tell you or anyone else what to do with your time or what games you should and shouldn't play. I'm glad that you are having a good time with today's online games. I really am, we should not be at each other's throats because we like different types of games. I just think sometimes people are actually glad that we don't have a game that we enjoy right now. That's borderline sadistic and I find it odd.
I saw Ironman 3 the other night. It was a good flick. It's my way of getting that quick disposable entertainment. I'll even watch some Saturday morning cartoons with my kids and get that same cheap disposable entertainment. I also like to read. I just finished the Malazan Book of the Fallen series, which took me the better part of a year to finish all ten books. At times it may have even felt like a bit of a chore. When I closed the tenth book and was finished with the series, it was such an awesome feeling to reflect on the epic story that I had just absorbed. From your avatar, I would guess that you are a Song of Ice and Fire fan? The fourth book in that series, Feast for Crows, was a bit of a chore, and even downright painful at times to get through. It doesn't mean that the series is any less amazing. I'm sure when I finally (If he ever finishes the damn books) close the last book in that series I'll have a very similar sense of euphoria as I reflect on that epic story.
My point is, that some of us want an epic game that takes us the better part of two years to finish, as opposed to games that play like a quick action movie. Even if it can be slightly painful at times, it's often worth it in the end. Even in today's world, in everything that you do, work, or play, I find that you get out of it what you put into it.
My point is, that some of us want an epic game that takes us the better part of two years to finish, as opposed to games that play like a quick action movie. Even if it can be slightly painful at times, it's often worth it in the end. Even in today's world, in everything that you do, work, or play, I find that you get out of it what you put into it.
That, i found, totally false. Good entertainment is not what YOU put into it, but what the creator put into it.
I followed quite a few novel series (Honor Harrington from David Weber, Lost Fleet (and the sequal) from jack Campbell, ...). Reading is fun and no work. If it is not, i would not be doing it, just like any other entertainment. If a book is a chore, i am not reading it. I don't read novels to do chores ... i have enough of that in real life. I read them for fun .. an intellectual kind of fun, different from a game, but still fun.
Oh, IM3 is a good flick, almost as good as the Avenger. And again, it is so much fun because of the tremendous work the film makers have put into it, not because i have the patience to sit through it. Ditto for Lincoln. And Lincoln is fun too, in a different sort of way. But never a chore.
I play a bit of RIFT at the moment, met some nice people and find the community decent so far. I dont like excessive grinds, played a bit of LInage 2 and to me design like that is boring and repetative. But MMO's designed in ways that make them fullly accessible to, lets say 9 year olds, just aint fun. Need big diverse gameworlds that I can feel lost in, risk of not being able to obtain my corpse in a dungeon. I dont personally think that this should result in a permaloss of items, but it should however mean that the dungeon was over, trash respawned. Corpse summonable at gy for X amount of gold for instance. Need forced grouping for some areas, it is fun that there is something beound your own ability roaming, and hard elite mobs scattered around the gameworld in general. Unique armor sets from different continents in the huge gameworld - crafted/dropped. Solid crafting system that takes time to either reach max in or to obtain good patterns. And so forth.
My point is, that some of us want an epic game that takes us the better part of two years to finish, as opposed to games that play like a quick action movie. Even if it can be slightly painful at times, it's often worth it in the end. Even in today's world, in everything that you do, work, or play, I find that you get out of it what you put into it.
That, i found, totally false. Good entertainment is not what YOU put into it, but what the creator put into it.
I followed quite a few novel series (Honor Harrington from David Weber, Lost Fleet (and the sequal) from jack Campbell, ...). Reading is fun and no work. If it is not, i would not be doing it, just like any other entertainment. If a book is a chore, i am not reading it. I don't read novels to do chores ... i have enough of that in real life. I read them for fun .. an intellectual kind of fun, different from a game, but still fun.
Oh, IM3 is a good flick, almost as good as the Avenger. And again, it is so much fun because of the tremendous work the film makers have put into it, not because i have the patience to sit through it. Ditto for Lincoln. And Lincoln is fun too, in a different sort of way. But never a chore.
Don't get me wrong I love to read and it's usually not a chore, but I read a lot and sometimes it drags a bit, but I press on in order to advance the story and get the payoff. That to me is putting a little work in.
You've really never done anything in life that you don't find fun in order to accomplish a goal? Push yourself physically to get better at a sport? Running? Never done a pushup? Put up with your wife/girlfriend when you're fighting with them in order to scarlet blade later?
People who have a low tolerance for pain in entertainment are not a sub species of less evolved humans nor are they a lesser type of unsophisticated MMO fan. They're perhaps just those who haven't forgotten that we play for fun.
We are certainly different and I'm not saying anyone is more or less "evolved" It's just different ways that we find enjoyment in life. That's okay in my book. I'm certainly not trying to tell you or anyone else what to do with your time or what games you should and shouldn't play. I'm glad that you are having a good time with today's online games. I really am, we should be at each other's throats because we like different types of games. I just think sometimes people are actually glad that we don't have a game that we enjoy right now. That's borderline sadistic and I find it odd.
I saw Ironman 3 the other night. It was a good flick. It's my way of getting that quick disposable entertainment. I'll even watch some Saturday morning cartoons with my kids and get that same cheap disposable entertainment. I also like to read. I just finished the Malazan Book of the Fallen series, which took me the better part of a year to finish all ten books. At times it may have even felt like a bit of a chore. When I closed the tenth book and was finished with the series, it was such an awesome feeling to reflect on the epic story that I had just absorbed. From your avatar, I would guess that you are a Song of Ice and Fire fan? The fourth book in that series, Feast for Crows, was a bit of a chore, and even downright painful at times to get through. It doesn't mean that the series is any less amazing. I'm sure when I finally (If he ever finishes the damn books) close the last book in that series I'll have a very similar sense of euphoria as I reflect on that epic story.
My point is, that some of us want an epic game that takes us the better part of two years to finish, as opposed to games that play like a quick action movie. Even if it can be slightly painful at times, it's often worth it in the end. Even in today's world, in everything that you do, work, or play, I find that you get out of it what you put into it.
Well I'm certainly not into any form of schadenfreude with respect to other gamers. Especially those without a current MMO to call home. Been there. Done that. Got the T-shirt.
What I react to in these threads is the intolerance some show for those who enjoy other things especially when they try to "prove" that their taste is best.
Ironman... what's not to like? ACDC and oh yeah, some movie too
And yeah, sometimes you have to slog through the boring passages in books. George RR Martin, Robert Jordan, heck, even Tolkien, had parts that had to be endured instead of enjoyed. You slog through those because you're hooked and you know it was really good before and expect the same again... but all in all, I wish they'd just edit the crap out
Someone just turned me on to a new writer, Dan Wells who writes mostly teen fiction but can be enjoyed by adults. His style is economical and his stories flow without any filler. In that respect, and only in that respect, he reminds me of two of my favorites of all time: Mark Twain and Kurt Vonnegut. They all have a knack for saying a lot in very few words.
I admire that and not just in books--I also admire it in computer games. I can't help but see filler as a time waster. I want every second I spend in a game to be enjoyable and have meaning. I truly detest any kind of grinding.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I play a bit of RIFT at the moment, met some nice people and find the community decent so far. I dont like excessive grinds, played a bit of LInage 2 and to me design like that is boring and repetative. But MMO's designed in ways that make them fullly accessible to, lets say 9 year olds, just aint fun. Need big diverse gameworlds that I can feel lost in, risk of not being able to obtain my corpse in a dungeon. I dont personally think that this should result in a permaloss of items, but it should however mean that the dungeon was over, trash respawned. Corpse summonable at gy for X amount of gold for instance. Need forced grouping for some areas, it is fun that there is something beound your own ability roaming, and hard elite mobs scattered around the gameworld in general. Unique armor sets from different continents in the huge gameworld - crafted/dropped. Solid crafting system that takes time to either reach max in or to obtain good patterns. And so forth.
Rift was one of my favorite MMOs of the past 5 years. Matter of fact I keep thinking about going back.
The Chloromancer, a class that heals as a consequence of the damage he deals, is my all time favorite healer in any MMO
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
My point is, that some of us want an epic game that takes us the better part of two years to finish, as opposed to games that play like a quick action movie. Even if it can be slightly painful at times, it's often worth it in the end. Even in today's world, in everything that you do, work, or play, I find that you get out of it what you put into it.
Frankly, I would love play a game like that. However, if the game tries to implement 'old school' style grinding or other time wasters than that pretty much nullifies the 'epic' moniker.
You've really never done anything in life that you don't find fun in order to accomplish a goal? Push yourself physically to get better at a sport? Running? Never done a pushup? Put up with your wife/girlfriend when you're fighting with them in order to scarlet blade later?
Work and career, of course. Even fun work, sometimes has chores.
But entertainment? Nope. (And no, i don't play sports. I detest it. So much un-fun practice to get at a little pvp, i would much rather read).
Sure i sometimes have to put up with my wife, and she put up with me .. but that is not entertainment. That is real relationship, real life.
My point is, that some of us want an epic game that takes us the better part of two years to finish, as opposed to games that play like a quick action movie. Even if it can be slightly painful at times, it's often worth it in the end. Even in today's world, in everything that you do, work, or play, I find that you get out of it what you put into it.
Frankly, I would love play a game like that. However, if the game tries to implement 'old school' style grinding or other time wasters than that pretty much nullifies the 'epic' moniker.
one month, two years .. does not matter to me.
if the game is fun for two years, fine. If not, count me out. Why do people think longer is better? That is the classical confusion of quantity over quality.
Do you want to watch 20 hours of Super Friends, rather than 2 hours of The Avenger?
I play a bit of RIFT at the moment, met some nice people and find the community decent so far. I dont like excessive grinds, played a bit of LInage 2 and to me design like that is boring and repetative. But MMO's designed in ways that make them fullly accessible to, lets say 9 year olds, just aint fun. Need big diverse gameworlds that I can feel lost in, risk of not being able to obtain my corpse in a dungeon. I dont personally think that this should result in a permaloss of items, but it should however mean that the dungeon was over, trash respawned. Corpse summonable at gy for X amount of gold for instance. Need forced grouping for some areas, it is fun that there is something beound your own ability roaming, and hard elite mobs scattered around the gameworld in general. Unique armor sets from different continents in the huge gameworld - crafted/dropped. Solid crafting system that takes time to either reach max in or to obtain good patterns. And so forth.
Rift was one of my favorite MMOs of the past 5 years. Matter of fact I keep thinking about going back.
The Chloromancer, a class that heals as a consequence of the damage he deals, is my all time favorite healer in any MMO
Mages in Rift seem pretty special and well thought out, really demanding rotations around which I find fun. Played pyro lock , defile mancer some necro and a tiny bit of chloro last time I played and now, after my return, I play a full lock variant. A few players I met say chloro is still fun so maybe you should give it a go. However there is more grinding now than before I am afraid - Trion has in all likelyhood minimized their crew due to Defiance, which also has resulted in a bit less content being pushed out and, from what I hear, more notority farming. I am not sure it matters thou unless you are a min/maxer. New patch is incomming 'soon' with a brand new area (Dendrome).
I really don't understand why cant people simply accept that games are now produced for wide masses and not for selected few (hardcore gamers). The problem is not in you, the problem is in the games and companies that try make a lot of money. It is an industry after all, no one will put 100m in a game for altruism only.
Having said this us, old farts or hardcore gamers, call us whatever you like, need to find niche games and enjoy. Its hard but it beats the hell from brainless mass produced crap like WOW for example (God that game sucks donkey hanging parts).
And you have companies that try to merge the two together. New kid players, mass users of industry and old farts. And every one of those fails. A game is either made for 10 million people or made as a niche game that should appeal selected crowd only. Look at SWTOR for example. Its super ultra developed yet its piece of crap, despite it covering a topic that hardly anyone can fail with (Star Wars have millions of followers hungry for any kind of content regardless of quality). That game is an unhealthy mix between wannabe mass audience and hardcore gaming and it fails on both ends. It should have been either or.
I'm enjoying my niche games where number of players online barely passes 1000 at peak times. I remember EVE when 5k people was something special. Looking for more of those and less of wows.
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
I'm with the group that grew up playing EQ and FFXI and really pine for the days when you HAD to have a group to accomplsih things. I don't mind forced grouping, even if it is a pain in the ass some nights, because at the end of it all you have a real sense of accomplishment.
I hate playing solo. I have quite two dozen MMOs due to the fact that I could solo my way to max levele. To me, there is no point in playing an MMO if you want to play by yourself. That's what God of War, The WItcher etc. games are for.
I'm holding out hope for FFXIV that at least the end game is somewhat reminiscent of FFXI!
I hate playing solo. I have quite two dozen MMOs due to the fact that I could solo my way to max levele. To me, there is no point in playing an MMO if you want to play by yourself. That's what God of War, The WItcher etc. games are for.
Just treat MMO as one of those games. I do and have lots of fun.
Oh the old times... when levels actually meant something.
Basically clicking away text windows ruins every MMO, try to have fun instead of rushing things. Without story and lore all there is left is a bunch of mechanics. Reply Add Multi-Quote
We who enjoyed MMO that took time to play, accomplish ingame really matters, crafters had names, dungeons were hard, even get a level were a accomplish in it self, everything we did back then really matters and it really felt good.
Now you play MMOs atleast western ones on autopilot, you don't really need a guild, you dont really need friends, everything is layed out for you to play from A to B solo, even the dungeons and raids gets on farm mode within a week it gets released.
And the sad part for me is that the younger generation seems to enjoy this, instant gratification crowd no wonder game studios seems to make clones left and right when it sells so good............for a month.........then they return on this board and the sead game board and whine there is nothing to do at endgame and wait for the next big thing.
Some of you might know me from GW2 forums and thinks hey you talking about yourself why on earth are you even making a thread like this when you play GW2?
Why I play GW2 is not because it's easy or hard I play it because Anet broke the WoW mold simple as that, I can finally play a game were I'm free to do what I want, and yes I would love this game to be less solo friendly and more hardcore.
Just wanted to say that for you guys who love to make a post history.
So are we old farts ever going back to the old days with some modifications or are we stuck with instant gratification generation and pray for some indi company who has money to do it right?
You have a point however I still find it funny after years. I remember back those 8-9 years ago having exactly same conversation, just with different ppl. Back then EQ, Lineage, DAoC, UO vets complaining about WoW and EQ2 for being easy mode and promoting instant gratification and stuff like this. Also complains about ppl who just started their first MMORPG (most of them WoW) how much they are idiots that never learn and so on.
Now it's almost 10 years later and history repeats itself. Not saying that it's you, don't take me wrong. But looking around I find it that so called vets that started with WoW and never seen real stuff are complaining how new games are screwed up because of instant gratification and stuff.
With that being said I have to say that I don't really see it happening, not atleast anytime soon. Some upcoming titles may be sandboksy, good thing. However sandbox doesn't mean always complexity which is something that 90% of modern titles lack most. With unfortunately GW2 being one of the brightest examples of that problem (+ instant gratification, second thing you complain about).
Fun and enjoyment SHOULD be synonymous. There are some however that think that if something isn't always fun it should be dropped and move along to the next. That's why I think rather of enjoyment because your experience in anything isn't always going to be fun. Even ice cream... eat it too fast and that is not fun
I also read books and by far the most excruciating one was LorR. Should I have put it down as soon as it got hard? No and better off for it.
I really don't care what other people do but when I hear that someone should just jump around MMOs or maybe thy aren't for them I had to laugh... and respond since it was a backwards premise
I wrote a 4 page (10 point, single spaced) reply, but in essence it boils down to a few things:
Game companies are a business, and in respect of that, need to make as much money as possible.
F2P and B2P games are easier for people to try. In light of recent games that sucked horribly, a fairly large number of people enjoy games that allow you to try it for free first. F2P is the best gateway to that.
Older gamers (myself included) HATE F2P because it encourages a them versus you way (like a casino) in which only the house can win.
Games can be made more cheaply now than before, and the older games (like older movies and older music) were made without the "middle group" that tends to mess things up by evening out the score. That makes sense as investors are conservative by nature.
Older gamers (like the first group of older gamers) will make small release games that harken to what THEY want to do and release them. Maybe not with AAA graphics, but serviceable.
Once a number of older gamers begin to enjoy the game, newer players will flock to the game, making it bigger and therefore attract corporate copies.
So, to "win" the topic, I'd say:
Let everyone enjoy the new games and either make or encourage other older gamers to make games they like as a smaller release. By doing so, you are practically guaranteeing a larger release.
In the meantime, either play P2P, F2P, or B2P games as you will and note what you like or not. Play fast or take your time. Spend money or don't. Play PVP games or PVE or a hybrid. If you can't decide, draw up a chart and roll some dice.
Make some friends. Decide what you like to play and then purposely try something different at least once a year for at least a week. In doing that, you will grow.
If you HATE what you're doing, step back for a week and think about it. Then try a different tactic and see if that improves things. Some people (me included) like solving problems even with things I HATE.
If you see a game that you would've liked but a mechanic seriously made the game suck (such as blowing yourself up making a sandwich in old EQ2 crafting), say so.
"I liked the game well enough / it was alright but" (insert problem here) goes a LONG WAY towards understanding.
If you didn't like the game, list those reasons and how, you feel, they could've been made better.
Realize that other people are different. Sometimes those people are oddly different. Embracing differences instead of rejecting them as invalid or insignificant leads to growth. Especially if you try to find some middle ground, even if it is all to yourself. Thinking like someone else is good.
Anyway, everyone have fun. I'm off to Torchlight II.
Originally posted by nariusseldon ...If you don't like what they produce, you should quit gaming and do something else....
If you don't like what people say here, you should quit posting and do something else. (please)
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
We who enjoyed MMO that took time to play, accomplish ingame really matters, crafters had names, dungeons were hard, even get a level were a accomplish in it self, everything we did back then really matters and it really felt good.
Now you play MMOs atleast western ones on autopilot, you don't really need a guild, you dont really need friends, everything is layed out for you to play from A to B solo, even the dungeons and raids gets on farm mode within a week it gets released.
And the sad part for me is that the younger generation seems to enjoy this, instant gratification crowd no wonder game studios seems to make clones left and right when it sells so good............for a month.........then they return on this board and the sead game board and whine there is nothing to do at endgame and wait for the next big thing.
Some of you might know me from GW2 forums and thinks hey you talking about yourself why on earth are you even making a thread like this when you play GW2?
Why I play GW2 is not because it's easy or hard I play it because Anet broke the WoW mold simple as that, I can finally play a game were I'm free to do what I want, and yes I would love this game to be less solo friendly and more hardcore.
Just wanted to say that for you guys who love to make a post history.
So are we old farts ever going back to the old days with some modifications or are we stuck with instant gratification generation and pray for some indi company who has money to do it right?
You have a point however I still find it funny after years. I remember back those 8-9 years ago having exactly same conversation, just with different ppl. Back then EQ, Lineage, DAoC, UO vets complaining about WoW and EQ2 for being easy mode and promoting instant gratification and stuff like this. Also complains about ppl who just started their first MMORPG (most of them WoW) how much they are idiots that never learn and so on.
Now it's almost 10 years later and history repeats itself. Not saying that it's you, don't take me wrong. But looking around I find it that so called vets that started with WoW and never seen real stuff are complaining how new games are screwed up because of instant gratification and stuff.
With that being said I have to say that I don't really see it happening, not atleast anytime soon. Some upcoming titles may be sandboksy, good thing. However sandbox doesn't mean always complexity which is something that 90% of modern titles lack most. With unfortunately GW2 being one of the brightest examples of that problem (+ instant gratification, second thing you complain about).
Games are these days like a movies, you watch it, thinks it good and move on to the next one.
And I see GW2 as one of the few games that actual tries to make something different, if you hate or love that game that's besides the point, they broke off and tried to do something different and that I feel is a good step in the right direction imo.
This thread is full of people who have no clue what they want.
You have one side screaming for the old ways and the other side praising the new releases. In truth, you both have very little grasp on what will create a future in this industry. Right now, the industry is scrimping by with average and it shows. The games to be released and the ones that have been released have been generic crap that simply takes advantage of a community so disoriented that they try every game regardless of its fail.
We have more generic crap on the way and there is no debate on this. Sure, we will all dip our toes into every generic game released in the next few years. Sure, you may find something somewhat fun to play among the pile of generic waste to be downloaded to your computer. You will try with all your might to associate that first MMORPG experience with the games coming out. You will even convince yourselves that these generic piles of crap are good enough for you. (We call this denial) In the end, you are playing crap. Nothing more, nothing less.
There will be a game so epic, so original, so intuitive, so inventive that it will crash through all boundaries associated with MMORPG's.
Is it out now? No.
Is it coming out soon? No.
We will know when we see it. There will be no questioning its viability on the forums. You will not see posts of hate, because there will be nothing to compare it too to hate against. It will please both instant gratification crowd + hardcore crowd (Yes, that is possible) It will be a true black swan event. I wait for this day to come and will wait as long as it takes till it arrives.
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Noooo no no no. Don't give up hope lol! I know how you feel, i really do. I personally was talking with a friend over steam, yes ranting, about current mmos lately and how they are being designed right.
Then all of a sudden they showed me this:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/nerdkingdom/tug-1
I was floored. Not only was it JUST what i was telling him games should be like.. but it had personally met ideas ive had for mmos for the last 10 years.
So here we are. Im going to make a seperate thread on this but Im going to ask you guys please take a look at it at the very least. I wont blindly ask you to support it, but i ask you give it consideration and watch the vid on the page. Thats all i can ask.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
wait .. you whine excessively .. that is ok. Now if people express a different opinion . that they enjoy current MMOS, that is not?
Why do you feel the need to play the victim?
(And yes, i am answering with a question, just like what you did).
I think we need to ditch the word "whining"- really.
Just because I disagree with your complaints and opinions does not mean you are "whining" and vice versa. Thats a cop out.
Discussing, disagreeing and expressing opinions as to why something failed or what something should do or what you WOULD like to see is not a whine. That is an attack IMHO and has no part in debate/discussion.
If viewing MMO positively is "rubbing it in" .. then complaining about it is "whining". Two sides of the same coin.
We are certainly different and I'm not saying anyone is more or less "evolved" It's just different ways that we find enjoyment in life. That's okay in my book. I'm certainly not trying to tell you or anyone else what to do with your time or what games you should and shouldn't play. I'm glad that you are having a good time with today's online games. I really am, we should not be at each other's throats because we like different types of games. I just think sometimes people are actually glad that we don't have a game that we enjoy right now. That's borderline sadistic and I find it odd.
I saw Ironman 3 the other night. It was a good flick. It's my way of getting that quick disposable entertainment. I'll even watch some Saturday morning cartoons with my kids and get that same cheap disposable entertainment. I also like to read. I just finished the Malazan Book of the Fallen series, which took me the better part of a year to finish all ten books. At times it may have even felt like a bit of a chore. When I closed the tenth book and was finished with the series, it was such an awesome feeling to reflect on the epic story that I had just absorbed. From your avatar, I would guess that you are a Song of Ice and Fire fan? The fourth book in that series, Feast for Crows, was a bit of a chore, and even downright painful at times to get through. It doesn't mean that the series is any less amazing. I'm sure when I finally (If he ever finishes the damn books) close the last book in that series I'll have a very similar sense of euphoria as I reflect on that epic story.
My point is, that some of us want an epic game that takes us the better part of two years to finish, as opposed to games that play like a quick action movie. Even if it can be slightly painful at times, it's often worth it in the end. Even in today's world, in everything that you do, work, or play, I find that you get out of it what you put into it.
That, i found, totally false. Good entertainment is not what YOU put into it, but what the creator put into it.
I followed quite a few novel series (Honor Harrington from David Weber, Lost Fleet (and the sequal) from jack Campbell, ...). Reading is fun and no work. If it is not, i would not be doing it, just like any other entertainment. If a book is a chore, i am not reading it. I don't read novels to do chores ... i have enough of that in real life. I read them for fun .. an intellectual kind of fun, different from a game, but still fun.
Oh, IM3 is a good flick, almost as good as the Avenger. And again, it is so much fun because of the tremendous work the film makers have put into it, not because i have the patience to sit through it. Ditto for Lincoln. And Lincoln is fun too, in a different sort of way. But never a chore.
@Iselin
I play a bit of RIFT at the moment, met some nice people and find the community decent so far. I dont like excessive grinds, played a bit of LInage 2 and to me design like that is boring and repetative. But MMO's designed in ways that make them fullly accessible to, lets say 9 year olds, just aint fun. Need big diverse gameworlds that I can feel lost in, risk of not being able to obtain my corpse in a dungeon. I dont personally think that this should result in a permaloss of items, but it should however mean that the dungeon was over, trash respawned. Corpse summonable at gy for X amount of gold for instance. Need forced grouping for some areas, it is fun that there is something beound your own ability roaming, and hard elite mobs scattered around the gameworld in general. Unique armor sets from different continents in the huge gameworld - crafted/dropped. Solid crafting system that takes time to either reach max in or to obtain good patterns. And so forth.
Don't get me wrong I love to read and it's usually not a chore, but I read a lot and sometimes it drags a bit, but I press on in order to advance the story and get the payoff. That to me is putting a little work in.
You've really never done anything in life that you don't find fun in order to accomplish a goal? Push yourself physically to get better at a sport? Running? Never done a pushup? Put up with your wife/girlfriend when you're fighting with them in order to scarlet blade later?
Well I'm certainly not into any form of schadenfreude with respect to other gamers. Especially those without a current MMO to call home. Been there. Done that. Got the T-shirt.
What I react to in these threads is the intolerance some show for those who enjoy other things especially when they try to "prove" that their taste is best.
Ironman... what's not to like? ACDC and oh yeah, some movie too
And yeah, sometimes you have to slog through the boring passages in books. George RR Martin, Robert Jordan, heck, even Tolkien, had parts that had to be endured instead of enjoyed. You slog through those because you're hooked and you know it was really good before and expect the same again... but all in all, I wish they'd just edit the crap out
Someone just turned me on to a new writer, Dan Wells who writes mostly teen fiction but can be enjoyed by adults. His style is economical and his stories flow without any filler. In that respect, and only in that respect, he reminds me of two of my favorites of all time: Mark Twain and Kurt Vonnegut. They all have a knack for saying a lot in very few words.
I admire that and not just in books--I also admire it in computer games. I can't help but see filler as a time waster. I want every second I spend in a game to be enjoyable and have meaning. I truly detest any kind of grinding.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Rift was one of my favorite MMOs of the past 5 years. Matter of fact I keep thinking about going back.
The Chloromancer, a class that heals as a consequence of the damage he deals, is my all time favorite healer in any MMO
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Frankly, I would love play a game like that. However, if the game tries to implement 'old school' style grinding or other time wasters than that pretty much nullifies the 'epic' moniker.
Work and career, of course. Even fun work, sometimes has chores.
But entertainment? Nope. (And no, i don't play sports. I detest it. So much un-fun practice to get at a little pvp, i would much rather read).
Sure i sometimes have to put up with my wife, and she put up with me .. but that is not entertainment. That is real relationship, real life.
one month, two years .. does not matter to me.
if the game is fun for two years, fine. If not, count me out. Why do people think longer is better? That is the classical confusion of quantity over quality.
Do you want to watch 20 hours of Super Friends, rather than 2 hours of The Avenger?
Mages in Rift seem pretty special and well thought out, really demanding rotations around which I find fun. Played pyro lock , defile mancer some necro and a tiny bit of chloro last time I played and now, after my return, I play a full lock variant. A few players I met say chloro is still fun so maybe you should give it a go. However there is more grinding now than before I am afraid - Trion has in all likelyhood minimized their crew due to Defiance, which also has resulted in a bit less content being pushed out and, from what I hear, more notority farming. I am not sure it matters thou unless you are a min/maxer. New patch is incomming 'soon' with a brand new area (Dendrome).
I really don't understand why cant people simply accept that games are now produced for wide masses and not for selected few (hardcore gamers). The problem is not in you, the problem is in the games and companies that try make a lot of money. It is an industry after all, no one will put 100m in a game for altruism only.
Having said this us, old farts or hardcore gamers, call us whatever you like, need to find niche games and enjoy. Its hard but it beats the hell from brainless mass produced crap like WOW for example (God that game sucks donkey hanging parts).
And you have companies that try to merge the two together. New kid players, mass users of industry and old farts. And every one of those fails. A game is either made for 10 million people or made as a niche game that should appeal selected crowd only. Look at SWTOR for example. Its super ultra developed yet its piece of crap, despite it covering a topic that hardly anyone can fail with (Star Wars have millions of followers hungry for any kind of content regardless of quality). That game is an unhealthy mix between wannabe mass audience and hardcore gaming and it fails on both ends. It should have been either or.
I'm enjoying my niche games where number of players online barely passes 1000 at peak times. I remember EVE when 5k people was something special. Looking for more of those and less of wows.
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
I'm with the group that grew up playing EQ and FFXI and really pine for the days when you HAD to have a group to accomplsih things. I don't mind forced grouping, even if it is a pain in the ass some nights, because at the end of it all you have a real sense of accomplishment.
I hate playing solo. I have quite two dozen MMOs due to the fact that I could solo my way to max levele. To me, there is no point in playing an MMO if you want to play by yourself. That's what God of War, The WItcher etc. games are for.
I'm holding out hope for FFXIV that at least the end game is somewhat reminiscent of FFXI!
Just treat MMO as one of those games. I do and have lots of fun.
Basically clicking away text windows ruins every MMO, try to have fun instead of rushing things. Without story and lore all there is left is a bunch of mechanics.
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You have a point however I still find it funny after years. I remember back those 8-9 years ago having exactly same conversation, just with different ppl. Back then EQ, Lineage, DAoC, UO vets complaining about WoW and EQ2 for being easy mode and promoting instant gratification and stuff like this. Also complains about ppl who just started their first MMORPG (most of them WoW) how much they are idiots that never learn and so on.
Now it's almost 10 years later and history repeats itself. Not saying that it's you, don't take me wrong. But looking around I find it that so called vets that started with WoW and never seen real stuff are complaining how new games are screwed up because of instant gratification and stuff.
With that being said I have to say that I don't really see it happening, not atleast anytime soon. Some upcoming titles may be sandboksy, good thing. However sandbox doesn't mean always complexity which is something that 90% of modern titles lack most. With unfortunately GW2 being one of the brightest examples of that problem (+ instant gratification, second thing you complain about).
I agree with you on many points
MMOs are just games meant for entertainment
And
Fun and enjoyment SHOULD be synonymous. There are some however that think that if something isn't always fun it should be dropped and move along to the next. That's why I think rather of enjoyment because your experience in anything isn't always going to be fun. Even ice cream... eat it too fast and that is not fun
I also read books and by far the most excruciating one was LorR. Should I have put it down as soon as it got hard? No and better off for it.
I really don't care what other people do but when I hear that someone should just jump around MMOs or maybe thy aren't for them I had to laugh... and respond since it was a backwards premise
I wrote a 4 page (10 point, single spaced) reply, but in essence it boils down to a few things:
If you don't like what people say here, you should quit posting and do something else. (please)
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Games are these days like a movies, you watch it, thinks it good and move on to the next one.
And I see GW2 as one of the few games that actual tries to make something different, if you hate or love that game that's besides the point, they broke off and tried to do something different and that I feel is a good step in the right direction imo.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
This thread is full of people who have no clue what they want.
You have one side screaming for the old ways and the other side praising the new releases. In truth, you both have very little grasp on what will create a future in this industry. Right now, the industry is scrimping by with average and it shows. The games to be released and the ones that have been released have been generic crap that simply takes advantage of a community so disoriented that they try every game regardless of its fail.
We have more generic crap on the way and there is no debate on this. Sure, we will all dip our toes into every generic game released in the next few years. Sure, you may find something somewhat fun to play among the pile of generic waste to be downloaded to your computer. You will try with all your might to associate that first MMORPG experience with the games coming out. You will even convince yourselves that these generic piles of crap are good enough for you. (We call this denial) In the end, you are playing crap. Nothing more, nothing less.
There will be a game so epic, so original, so intuitive, so inventive that it will crash through all boundaries associated with MMORPG's.
Is it out now? No.
Is it coming out soon? No.
We will know when we see it. There will be no questioning its viability on the forums. You will not see posts of hate, because there will be nothing to compare it too to hate against. It will please both instant gratification crowd + hardcore crowd (Yes, that is possible) It will be a true black swan event. I wait for this day to come and will wait as long as it takes till it arrives.