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Breaking the lore

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Comments

  • asrlohzasrlohz UddevallaPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by Destai
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Ah the memories!

    This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.

    And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap :)

    That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.

    If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Boethiah, aka the Prince of plots. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore. 

    Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP. 

    I think that you are generalising a lot of people. Everyone doesn't love lore, most don't even care that much.

    But without the lore the game would lose its depth for everyone. Take Skyrim for example (Personally, I didn't quite like that title as much as the previous ones), Skyrim added all those words like the "Daedra" and "Eight Divines" that made everyone feel like they were in an ancient world with their own history. And without all those well established stories and lores the game wouldn't be that immersive. I've played several games where I just felt out of touch with the world because it was a new IP with very little lore. (Kingdoms of Amalur, Torchlight and even The Witcher series at times) However, games like Fallout 3 felt rich from the start because everything was very solid. The story had been solid for a very long time before it even came out under a whole different crew of devs.

     

    But more often than not lore isn't that hard to implement for us that do. And lore cannot hurt the game. The game is about Molag Bal trying to get peoples souls, whether it is for slaves in Cold Harbour or not doesn't matter because it is lore friendly. But he has never tried to scheme things up. From what we've seen, most daedric lord take every chance they can at breaching the space between Mundus and their plane. Much like in Oblivion and Morrowind.

     

    image
  • asrlohzasrlohz UddevallaPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Destai
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Ah the memories!

    This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.

    And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap :)

    That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.

    If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Boethiah, aka the Prince of plots. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore. 

    Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP. 

    The point is this is what happens even to stories as epic at LotR. Name me a story worth telling again in any medium and you will find changes. From Star Wars to LotR to comics and right down real life history, writers change things to tell the story they want. IMO its needed, things that are ridged end up breaking. I would suggest you get ready for a long list of small lore changes and maybe a few big ones. 

    Yes, maybe. But it isn't needed in TES. They are just doing it out of ignorance. What if SWToR made an expansion where the new boss is Darth Vader without any explanation other than "People know who Darth Vader is". That is not needed. That is just something they would do without any regard to the lore.

    image
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by asrlohz
    Originally posted by Destai
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Ah the memories!

    This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.

    And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap :)

    That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.

    If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Boethiah, aka the Prince of plots. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore. 

    Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP. 

    I think that you are generalising a lot of people. Everyone doesn't love lore, most don't even care that much.

    But without the lore the game would lose its depth for everyone. Take Skyrim for example (Personally, I didn't quite like that title as much as the previous ones), Skyrim added all those words like the "Daedra" and "Eight Divines" that made everyone feel like they were in an ancient world with their own history. And without all those well established stories and lores the game wouldn't be that immersive. I've played several games where I just felt out of touch with the world because it was a new IP with very little lore. (Kingdoms of Amalur, Torchlight and even The Witcher series at times) However, games like Fallout 3 felt rich from the start because everything was very solid. The story had been solid for a very long time before it even came out under a whole different crew of devs.

     

    But more often than not lore isn't that hard to implement for us that do. And lore cannot hurt the game. The game is about Molag Bal trying to get peoples souls, whether it is for slaves in Cold Harbour or not doesn't matter because it is lore friendly. But he has never tried to scheme things up. From what we've seen, most daedric lord take every chance they can at breaching the space between Mundus and their plane. Much like in Oblivion and Morrowind.

     

    Ya it sad when video games devolpers forget that story + game play make the best games. My fear with ESO is not so much the lore. The fact that the fix at level 50 you can goto the other factions maps and do their quests makes me wonder if the story is so watered down you wont see ESO come through. Like a land at war and devided should have stories of Highelves hating darkelves. Quests where you have to go out and take revenge for wrongs done by the other races and be the hero of your faction by saving people from wrongs. When I am in the other factions map, will I be given a quest to kill 10 NPCs of my race to turn the tide of battle? Will a widow ask me to take revenge on my race for killing her husband? Im more worried about that side of the story.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,610Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by asrlohz
    Originally posted by Destai
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Ah the memories!

    This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.

    And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap :)

    That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.

    If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Boethiah, aka the Prince of plots. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore. 

    Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP. 

    I think that you are generalising a lot of people. Everyone doesn't love lore, most don't even care that much.

    But without the lore the game would lose its depth for everyone. Take Skyrim for example (Personally, I didn't quite like that title as much as the previous ones), Skyrim added all those words like the "Daedra" and "Eight Divines" that made everyone feel like they were in an ancient world with their own history. And without all those well established stories and lores the game wouldn't be that immersive. I've played several games where I just felt out of touch with the world because it was a new IP with very little lore. (Kingdoms of Amalur, Torchlight and even The Witcher series at times) However, games like Fallout 3 felt rich from the start because everything was very solid. The story had been solid for a very long time before it even came out under a whole different crew of devs.

     

    But more often than not lore isn't that hard to implement for us that do. And lore cannot hurt the game. The game is about Molag Bal trying to get peoples souls, whether it is for slaves in Cold Harbour or not doesn't matter because it is lore friendly. But he has never tried to scheme things up. From what we've seen, most daedric lord take every chance they can at breaching the space between Mundus and their plane. Much like in Oblivion and Morrowind.

     

    You're right that Lore, back-story, context, setting...whatever you want to call it is an essential component to making the world seem more real.

    However, lore is the spice that enhances the recipe--not the main ingredient.

    So you've caught the developers making a silly mistake, a temporal inconsistency. Good. Tell them. They'll put it on their todo list I'm sure.

    Is it enough reason to go off the deep end like the other poster above did? Not to reasonable people who know that mistakes happen. Go to any of the hundreds of websites dedicated to movie or book bloopers and you'll find that if you watch carefully enough, there is nothing that is free from mistakes.

    I still remember seeing a Greyhound bus in the far background of the original Planet of the Apes movie... was it a crappy movie? Well, actually yes it was. After all it had Charlton Heston in it....but it wasn't because of the Greyhound.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by asrlohz
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Destai
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Ah the memories!

    This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.

    And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap :)

    That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.

    If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Boethiah, aka the Prince of plots. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore. 

    Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP. 

    The point is this is what happens even to stories as epic at LotR. Name me a story worth telling again in any medium and you will find changes. From Star Wars to LotR to comics and right down real life history, writers change things to tell the story they want. IMO its needed, things that are ridged end up breaking. I would suggest you get ready for a long list of small lore changes and maybe a few big ones. 

    Yes, maybe. But it isn't needed in TES. They are just doing it out of ignorance. What if SWToR made an expansion where the new boss is Darth Vader without any explanation other than "People know who Darth Vader is". That is not needed. That is just something they would do without any regard to the lore.

    Then that would be bad writing and down right wrong. Now if the writers gave good reason why Vader was there.... well. If it broke the lore in a major way like he came back in time before Return of the Jedi and we killed him in a raid and now that movie should be rewritten. I would be upset. I can see why lore fans get upset and sometimes it gets me upset. My stand is it happens often and sometimes its bad and sometimes its well written. Needed? No but its common as spit. As my post above.... I am more worried about other areas of the ESO story then the lore. As from what I have seen. They are doing a good job of sticking close to the essance of what TES is.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • asrlohzasrlohz UddevallaPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by asrlohz
    Originally posted by Destai
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Ah the memories!

    This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.

    And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap :)

    That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.

    If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Boethiah, aka the Prince of plots. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore. 

    Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP. 

    I think that you are generalising a lot of people. Everyone doesn't love lore, most don't even care that much.

    But without the lore the game would lose its depth for everyone. Take Skyrim for example (Personally, I didn't quite like that title as much as the previous ones), Skyrim added all those words like the "Daedra" and "Eight Divines" that made everyone feel like they were in an ancient world with their own history. And without all those well established stories and lores the game wouldn't be that immersive. I've played several games where I just felt out of touch with the world because it was a new IP with very little lore. (Kingdoms of Amalur, Torchlight and even The Witcher series at times) However, games like Fallout 3 felt rich from the start because everything was very solid. The story had been solid for a very long time before it even came out under a whole different crew of devs.

     

    But more often than not lore isn't that hard to implement for us that do. And lore cannot hurt the game. The game is about Molag Bal trying to get peoples souls, whether it is for slaves in Cold Harbour or not doesn't matter because it is lore friendly. But he has never tried to scheme things up. From what we've seen, most daedric lord take every chance they can at breaching the space between Mundus and their plane. Much like in Oblivion and Morrowind.

     

    You're right that Lore, back-story, context, setting...whatever you want to call it is an essential component to making the world seem more real.

    However, lore is the spice that enhances the recipe--not the main ingredient.

    So you've caught the developers making a silly mistake, a temporal inconsistency. Good. Tell them. They'll put it on their todo list I'm sure.

    Is it enough reason to go off the deep end like the other poster above did? Not to reasonable people who know that mistakes happen. Go to any of the hundreds of websites dedicated to movie or book bloopers and you'll find that if you watch carefully enough, there is nothing that is free from mistakes.

    I still remember seeing a Greyhound bus in the far background of the original Planet of the Apes movie... was it a crappy movie? Well, actually yes it was. After all it had Charlton Heston in it....but it wasn't because of the Greyhound.

    I have horrible memories of that film. Remember watching it when I was awfully sick. Luckily I threw up thanks to the sickness and not the film.

     

    But I haven't caught them making a silly mistake. I've caught them trying to please the series newly found fans from Skyrim. I will tell the developers and hope for a proper change but I doubt it will happen. And aye, it is the spice. But it is also the "soul" of the game. It is essential for a TES title.

    And honestly, back in the days the lore was actually the main ingredient of the game. Otherwise you could just have played DOOM because it had actually proper gameplay. Times change, but the lore is really important to the series. It has been worked on since Arena.

    image
  • asrlohzasrlohz UddevallaPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by asrlohz
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Destai
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Ah the memories!

    This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.

    And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap :)

    That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.

    If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Boethiah, aka the Prince of plots. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore. 

    Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP. 

    The point is this is what happens even to stories as epic at LotR. Name me a story worth telling again in any medium and you will find changes. From Star Wars to LotR to comics and right down real life history, writers change things to tell the story they want. IMO its needed, things that are ridged end up breaking. I would suggest you get ready for a long list of small lore changes and maybe a few big ones. 

    Yes, maybe. But it isn't needed in TES. They are just doing it out of ignorance. What if SWToR made an expansion where the new boss is Darth Vader without any explanation other than "People know who Darth Vader is". That is not needed. That is just something they would do without any regard to the lore.

    Then that would be bad writing and down right wrong. Now if the writers gave good reason why Vader was there.... well. If it broke the lore in a major way like he came back in time before Return of the Jedi and we killed him in a raid and now that movie should be rewritten. I would be upset. I can see why lore fans get upset and sometimes it gets me upset. My stand is it happens often and sometimes its bad and sometimes its well written. Needed? No but its common as spit. As my post above.... I am more worried about other areas of the ESO story then the lore. As from what I have seen. They are doing a good job of sticking close to the essance of what TES is.

    Aha! I hit a nerve, did I! Well, essentially that is what they are doing. They are messing up the lore of a Daedric prince, half of the races and most likely more than a dozen books. It's kind of like saying that Darth Vader was actually Luke and Anakin took the role of Obi Wan. Also that C3PO was the princess.

    image
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by asrlohz
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by asrlohz
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Destai
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Ah the memories!

    This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.

    And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap :)

    That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.

    If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Boethiah, aka the Prince of plots. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore. 

    Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP. 

    The point is this is what happens even to stories as epic at LotR. Name me a story worth telling again in any medium and you will find changes. From Star Wars to LotR to comics and right down real life history, writers change things to tell the story they want. IMO its needed, things that are ridged end up breaking. I would suggest you get ready for a long list of small lore changes and maybe a few big ones. 

    Yes, maybe. But it isn't needed in TES. They are just doing it out of ignorance. What if SWToR made an expansion where the new boss is Darth Vader without any explanation other than "People know who Darth Vader is". That is not needed. That is just something they would do without any regard to the lore.

    Then that would be bad writing and down right wrong. Now if the writers gave good reason why Vader was there.... well. If it broke the lore in a major way like he came back in time before Return of the Jedi and we killed him in a raid and now that movie should be rewritten. I would be upset. I can see why lore fans get upset and sometimes it gets me upset. My stand is it happens often and sometimes its bad and sometimes its well written. Needed? No but its common as spit. As my post above.... I am more worried about other areas of the ESO story then the lore. As from what I have seen. They are doing a good job of sticking close to the essance of what TES is.

    Aha! I hit a nerve, did I! Well, essentially that is what they are doing. They are messing up the lore of a Daedric prince, half of the races and most likely more than a dozen books. It's kind of like saying that Darth Vader was actually Luke and Anakin took the role of Obi Wan. Also that C3PO was the princess.

    I did say they would need a good reason for doing so. As I said before Star Trek has just rebooted a story that started in 1966 and people are loving it. Tell them before hand the lore changes they plan and many would be down right upset. Sometimes small changes are needed and once in a while things need to be turned on its head. Its the way of stories. Even the most epic stories get changed. Now they do so at the risk of upsetting fans but thats on them. My point still stands. This is common and myself, I wont get upset till I see its context.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • DrakynnDrakynn The Pas, MBPosts: 2,030Member
    Any other old farts have Judas Priest's Breaking the Law stuck in their heads now?
  • rygard49rygard49 Huntington Beach, CAPosts: 975Member
    Originally posted by asrlohz

    But I haven't caught them making a silly mistake. I've caught them trying to please the series newly found fans from Skyrim. I will tell the developers and hope for a proper change but I doubt it will happen. And aye, it is the spice. But it is also the "soul" of the game. It is essential for a TES title.

    Ahhh. So the real reason comes to light. You loved Elder Scrolls before Skyrim made it too 'mainstream', and you resent a fanbase that you see as a jumping onto a bandwagon. I should have known by your forum avatar... you're a video game hipster! image

  • asrlohzasrlohz UddevallaPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by asrlohz
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by asrlohz
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Destai
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Ah the memories!

    This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.

    And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap :)

    That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.

    If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Boethiah, aka the Prince of plots. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore. 

    Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP. 

    The point is this is what happens even to stories as epic at LotR. Name me a story worth telling again in any medium and you will find changes. From Star Wars to LotR to comics and right down real life history, writers change things to tell the story they want. IMO its needed, things that are ridged end up breaking. I would suggest you get ready for a long list of small lore changes and maybe a few big ones. 

    Yes, maybe. But it isn't needed in TES. They are just doing it out of ignorance. What if SWToR made an expansion where the new boss is Darth Vader without any explanation other than "People know who Darth Vader is". That is not needed. That is just something they would do without any regard to the lore.

    Then that would be bad writing and down right wrong. Now if the writers gave good reason why Vader was there.... well. If it broke the lore in a major way like he came back in time before Return of the Jedi and we killed him in a raid and now that movie should be rewritten. I would be upset. I can see why lore fans get upset and sometimes it gets me upset. My stand is it happens often and sometimes its bad and sometimes its well written. Needed? No but its common as spit. As my post above.... I am more worried about other areas of the ESO story then the lore. As from what I have seen. They are doing a good job of sticking close to the essance of what TES is.

    Aha! I hit a nerve, did I! Well, essentially that is what they are doing. They are messing up the lore of a Daedric prince, half of the races and most likely more than a dozen books. It's kind of like saying that Darth Vader was actually Luke and Anakin took the role of Obi Wan. Also that C3PO was the princess.

    I did say they would need a good reason for doing so. As I said before Star Trek has just rebooted a story that started in 1966 and people are loving it. Tell them before hand the lore changes they plan and many would be down right upset. Sometimes small changes are needed and once in a while things need to be turned on its head. Its the way of stories. Even the most epic stories get changed. Now they do so at the risk of upsetting fans but thats on them. My point still stands. This is common and myself, I wont get upset till I see its context.

    Your point still stands, but it is irrelevant at this time, I'm afraid. This seems to just be random claims without reference to the lore by ZOS.

    But you have some very valid points, nonetheless

    image
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,610Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Drakynn
    Any other old farts have Judas Priest's Breaking the Law stuck in their heads now?

    Yes. And as a public service for young farts here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L397TWLwrUU

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by asrlohz
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by asrlohz
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by asrlohz
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Destai
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Ah the memories!

    This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.

    And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap :)

    That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.

    If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Boethiah, aka the Prince of plots. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore. 

    Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP. 

    The point is this is what happens even to stories as epic at LotR. Name me a story worth telling again in any medium and you will find changes. From Star Wars to LotR to comics and right down real life history, writers change things to tell the story they want. IMO its needed, things that are ridged end up breaking. I would suggest you get ready for a long list of small lore changes and maybe a few big ones. 

    Yes, maybe. But it isn't needed in TES. They are just doing it out of ignorance. What if SWToR made an expansion where the new boss is Darth Vader without any explanation other than "People know who Darth Vader is". That is not needed. That is just something they would do without any regard to the lore.

    Then that would be bad writing and down right wrong. Now if the writers gave good reason why Vader was there.... well. If it broke the lore in a major way like he came back in time before Return of the Jedi and we killed him in a raid and now that movie should be rewritten. I would be upset. I can see why lore fans get upset and sometimes it gets me upset. My stand is it happens often and sometimes its bad and sometimes its well written. Needed? No but its common as spit. As my post above.... I am more worried about other areas of the ESO story then the lore. As from what I have seen. They are doing a good job of sticking close to the essance of what TES is.

    Aha! I hit a nerve, did I! Well, essentially that is what they are doing. They are messing up the lore of a Daedric prince, half of the races and most likely more than a dozen books. It's kind of like saying that Darth Vader was actually Luke and Anakin took the role of Obi Wan. Also that C3PO was the princess.

    I did say they would need a good reason for doing so. As I said before Star Trek has just rebooted a story that started in 1966 and people are loving it. Tell them before hand the lore changes they plan and many would be down right upset. Sometimes small changes are needed and once in a while things need to be turned on its head. Its the way of stories. Even the most epic stories get changed. Now they do so at the risk of upsetting fans but thats on them. My point still stands. This is common and myself, I wont get upset till I see its context.

    Your point still stands, but it is irrelevant at this time, I'm afraid. This seems to just be random claims without reference to the lore by ZOS.

    But you have some very valid points, nonetheless

    As do you.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • Effin_RabbitEffin_Rabbit Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 773Member Uncommon

    Thats because this isnt Elder Scrolls being made into an mmorpg, its an mmorpg being made into Elder Scrolls.

  • DestaiDestai Detroit, MIPosts: 574Member
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Destai
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Ah the memories!

    This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.

    And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap :)

    That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.

    If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Mephala. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore. 

    Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP. 

    Why am I not surprised that you equate your own opinion with the opinion of the "people" and you presume to know what they enjoyed, or that you equate opposite opinions with McEverything?

    Thanks for giving us another example of how rigid the thinking of the self-appointed amateur lore guardians usually is.

    Hopefully once you guys who constantly threaten to leave actually do, we can get on with discussing the actual game and its true virtues and faults instead of the ever so boring comparisons to your private interpretations of the "titanic IP."

     

    You’re right – I’m a total amateur. But I’m a potentially paying total amateur who is not alone. At least I respect the titles that have come before enough to be upset about this. Obviously, I’m not alone in that sentiment. Furthermore, I’ve not presumed anything. It is a fact that people were upset over the discrepancies between the LoTR movie and books. Refer to Google for the swath of criticisms leveled against it.

    Zenimax is treading into the wrong territory. Not only are they pissing of fans of the Elder Scrolls, but I’m sure they’re also pissing off MMO players. Every single piece of information they’ve released has caused a stir and they’re in damage.

    And by the way my interpretation wasn’t private. It’s based on the well established library of lore available to us. I’m sure that doesn’t matter to someone like yourself. Something becomes part of the McEverything when it’s dumbed down, when it’s simplified, or retconned. That’s exactly what’s happening here. I’ll go on record to say this game shouldn’t have been made. Like SWTOR before it, it’s a developer that doesn’t understand what they’re doing. Their hubris is so big that their falling over their own words, constantly in defensive posturing. The announcement of a game should never be following by that. The very fact that Zenimax has to justify everything only strengthens my sentiment. 

  • rygard49rygard49 Huntington Beach, CAPosts: 975Member
    Originally posted by Nobadeeftw
    Originally posted by rygard49

    What's the difference between a video game and an MMORPG? Why would an MMO have to be held to stricter standards as far as the lore? I would think the opposite. In order to have a massive audience playing simultaneously, you have to concede certain aspects of lore to allow that. Not that this book thing is in the same vein as Priests of Mitra killing each other in AoC.

    This complaint about a book being in the game at the wrong time period... This is just minutiae that very few would even notice, let alone care about.

    You obviously never played SWG.  It started off as one little thing here and one little thing there.  Two years later the entire game was a lore stomping extravganza.  It was impossible for the actual roleplayers in the game to not notice all the nonsense.  This also reminds me of Star Trek online.  Sure, you could try to immerse yourself into that world; but, you're going to notice the hunderds of ships that are out of place, along with the people wearing uniforms that don't fit the time or place.  I wouldn't even know where to being with bad story telling.  It invokes the feeling of apathy in the community.  If no one else is going to bother following the established canon of an IP, why should the player care about it?

    If you don't understand what roleplaying is, perhaps it's time to do some serious research.  Sure you can find people on this site debating day and night about the definition of it; but, people who roleplayed long before MMOs, they seem to be the only ones who get it.  It's difficult to immerse yourself into a world full of contradictions.  Might as well be playing mine sweeper if you want mind numbing entertainment.  That's not why MMORPGs were created though, they were an obvious improvement upon MUDs.  Since then they have evolved into a multiplayer smorgasbord, containing whatever will attract subscribers for a period of time and when that fails, they invent some other random gimmick out of desperation.

    I played SWG for the first 3 months, so you obviously shouldn't make assumptions about complete strangers. It was lore stomping to start with that you could even be a Jedi in the time period the game was set, so their bastardization of the lore didn't happen little by little over time. It started right away.

    I understand roleplaying, and I've participated in the past. The roleplayers I know and have played with are all apt improvisationalists. They can take minor discrepancies in the established lore and do either one of two things:

    1. Ignore it, or...
    2. Work it into a story and explain for themselves why this thing is the way it is.
    Roleplaying is something outside of the game mechanics, and those player made stories exist both within and outside of the universe. They don't need to follow any of the lore of the game if they don't want, that's the beauty of a group of individuals using their collective imaginations. If your reason for not liking the game is because a minor book ruined your roleplaying immersion... I'd say you're doing it wrong.
  • ElRenmazuoElRenmazuo Alexandria, VAPosts: 4,549Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Darth-Batman

    Thats because this isnt Elder Scrolls being made into an mmorpg, its an mmorpg being made into Elder Scrolls.

    the picture on your profile pic stopped time for me...

  • asrlohzasrlohz UddevallaPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by rygard49
    Originally posted by asrlohz

    But I haven't caught them making a silly mistake. I've caught them trying to please the series newly found fans from Skyrim. I will tell the developers and hope for a proper change but I doubt it will happen. And aye, it is the spice. But it is also the "soul" of the game. It is essential for a TES title.

    Ahhh. So the real reason comes to light. You loved Elder Scrolls before Skyrim made it too 'mainstream', and you resent a fanbase that you see as a jumping onto a bandwagon. I should have known by your forum avatar... you're a video game hipster! image

    Didn't claim that. I greatly enjoyed Skyrim but it was very much simplified. A lot of the quests were randomized and the guilds' storylines were super linear and grindy. Oblivion was quite mainstream as well but it didn't push all of its resources to custom made dungeons whilst still retaining the same grindy feel.

     

    I still love The Elder Scrolls and I've never claimed otherwise. You are making unreasonable assumptions. Also, the avatar I'm using is from the webcomic "PvP Online" which is quite popular.

    You, my friend, have one shallow and prejudiced mindset.

    image
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Skyrim is a massive improvement on oblivion, couldn't stand oblivion its very "consoley"

    Morrowind was best though.
  • asrlohzasrlohz UddevallaPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by BaltoBro
    [mod edit]

    Somewhat of a valid point, but not quite. Since the lore is actually recorded since the first game (And if you look back, Arena felt very much less like a lore filled world compared to the recent games, mostly because all games are treated as a historic event) but it all depends. Maybe the community depends to skip this one completely and disregard everything that happens in it because it is so extremely different because there is no real protagonist.

     

    We'll have to wait and see.

    image
  • asrlohzasrlohz UddevallaPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Skyrim is a massive improvement on oblivion, couldn't stand oblivion its very "consoley"

    Morrowind was best though.

    I agree that Morrowind was the best in the series, but Skyrim was so much more "consoley" as you put it. Especially considering the UI and the map.

    image
  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,577Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by asrlohz
    I have horrible memories of that film. Remember watching it when I was awfully sick. Luckily I threw up thanks to the sickness and not the film.

     

    But I haven't caught them making a silly mistake. I've caught them trying to please the series newly found fans from Skyrim. I will tell the developers and hope for a proper change but I doubt it will happen. And aye, it is the spice. But it is also the "soul" of the game. It is essential for a TES title.

    And honestly, back in the days the lore was actually the main ingredient of the game. Otherwise you could just have played DOOM because it had actually proper gameplay. Times change, but the lore is really important to the series. It has been worked on since Arena.


    How are you coming to that conclusion? The Lusty Argonian Maid can be found in Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. They could be pleasing fans from all three of those games.

    image
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Someone should make a rockstar mmo.
  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,577Member Uncommon
    TES is now a console franchise.

    image
  • asrlohzasrlohz UddevallaPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by immodium
    Originally posted by asrlohz
    I have horrible memories of that film. Remember watching it when I was awfully sick. Luckily I threw up thanks to the sickness and not the film.

     

    But I haven't caught them making a silly mistake. I've caught them trying to please the series newly found fans from Skyrim. I will tell the developers and hope for a proper change but I doubt it will happen. And aye, it is the spice. But it is also the "soul" of the game. It is essential for a TES title.

    And honestly, back in the days the lore was actually the main ingredient of the game. Otherwise you could just have played DOOM because it had actually proper gameplay. Times change, but the lore is really important to the series. It has been worked on since Arena.


    How are you coming to that conclusion? The Lusty Argonian Maid can be found in Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. They could be pleasing fans from all three of those games.

    Mostly because in the other games it was just a "fun thing". Some random sexual innuendos. But when it appeared in Skyrim it became much more of a meme. It was something that everyone referred to. It almost seemed like the only book anyone read. I loved "The Rear Guard" and many other books. They were memorable. Also, I can't see how it would please a Morrowind player to see a book in TESO that was written by a character they met in a game set 900 years in the future of TESO.

     

    But in Skyrim it turned into "Oh hey! It's that funny book!" and you could even see that in the expansion "Dragonborn" where in one cave you could find a pile of "The Lusty Argonian Maid V.1/V.2" in a Riekling hut (with a tome beneath them) as if the Rieklings had some perversion, yet they cannot even read or understand Tamrielic.

     

    Edit: I must admit that it was kind of hilarious to find that pile of books, but my point still stands. It's kind of how in most of the trailers they show a "Dragonborn" look-a-like armor from behind because that armor played "such a big role in Skyrim".

    image
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