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Why even have relms? (Question everything ;)

TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless ColumnistM, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

If you want the long version see my blog

Short version, why even have relms? Many of the older games didn't have factions, but you could flag yourself to sort it out via guilds and such. So why even force them on us?

">http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas/052013/25076

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Comments

  • redcappredcapp brook, NYPosts: 722Member
    Guilds are exclusive.  Realms are inclusive.  Nothing more to it than that, IMO.  RvR creates an entirely different sort of community than that of a GvG or optional faction system.  Not to say those two other systems aren't valid in their own right.
  • VladamyreVladamyre South Shore, KYPosts: 225Member
    Originally posted by Tierless

    If you want the long version see my blog
    http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas/052013/25076

    Short version, why even have relms? Many of the older games didn't have factions, but you could flag yourself to sort it out via guilds and such. So why even force them on us?

    For starters there are 3 realms all fighting for control, there isn't mercenaries or sellswords. So I don't know what to tell you. If you want to flag yourself for pvp combat I think you should be playing wow.

    In a world of sharp knives, you would be a spoon.

  • fanglofanglo Virginia, VAPosts: 290Member
    I think it would be cool if you could create more factions in a game, as long as it wasn't easy to do. Maybe something crazy like 5 alliances come together to form a new faction (each alliance requires 5 guilds), population of all involved must be greater than 2000 players. Something like that to make it so that a new faction has meaning and there wouldn't be more than  a couple factions created.

    I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!

  • TumblebutzTumblebutz Henderson, NVPosts: 322Member
    Originally posted by redcapp
    Guilds are exclusive.  Realms are inclusive.

    I've been trying to explain why I like RvR better than GvG to people for years... and you just did it in two simple sentences.  Kudos, my friend!  Kudos!

    Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

    RED IS DEAD!

  • Baramos79Baramos79 Indianapolis, INPosts: 73Member
    I would rather have a factionless game, but if there has to be factions, I would rather have 3 than 2.
  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

    FYI the stance I took in the blog was why? My personal opinion differs from the blog in that I think without relms you end up with ginormous guild taking over servers. Relms balance things out as good as anything.

  • redcappredcapp brook, NYPosts: 722Member
    Originally posted by fanglo
    I think it would be cool if you could create more factions in a game, as long as it wasn't easy to do. Maybe something crazy like 5 alliances come together to form a new faction (each alliance requires 5 guilds), population of all involved must be greater than 2000 players. Something like that to make it so that a new faction has meaning and there wouldn't be more than  a couple factions created.

    The repopulation does this IIRC, or something to that effect anyway.  There are two base factions, and a third which is neutral, that essentially allows players to create their own factions.  Something like that at least.

  • TaldierTaldier Camp Hill, PAPosts: 235Member

    People will probably call me crazy, but I actually think some developers on EQ2 stumbled onto an idea that could have had potential (clearly accidentally since thereafter they worked actively against any potential that idea might have had).

     

    In short, there were two factions (though you could do it with three as well), and while you could move from one to the other, you did so by joining an "exile" faction in between.  That exile faction was FFA.  Guilds that joined the exile faction fought against both sides and each other.

     

    Properly utilized, that kind of dynamic would allow for smaller guilds and unguilded players to fight within the 2-3 starter realms, while also letting the strongest guilds go off on their own and create additional "mini-factions".

     

    But of course you would have to have some sort of benefit or reward actively motivating those strong guilds to go off on their own for that sort of system to work.

     

    Honestly dont know if it would work well or not, I dont really know if the idea has ever been tried properly before.  Just always found it interesting.  Not a great fit for CU perhaps, but interesting nonetheless.

     

    Completely aside from that, Im guessing that we'll end up with a regular FFA server for CU at some point down the road if the game is a success.  The demand is there.

  • skyexileskyexile MelbournePosts: 692Member

    yea i think the faction system better accommodates small guilds and new players, I dislike been apart of large guilds and even apart of large alliances can be anoying on over complicate things....the idea of have 2 factions then players been able to go off on their own does sound like a decent compromise though.

    SKYeXile
    TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
    Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  • HokibukisaHokibukisa Midland, GAPosts: 185Member

    Cause 3 realms works really well. Everyone is always outnumbered.

    More than 3 would be cool but 3 has proven to be that magic minimum.

    image

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon
    Because the niche of players who want a GvG game is smaller than the niche who want a RvR game and CU wouldn't have funded if it was designed to be a GvG game. GvG and FFA PvP games typically fail hard because they are only fun for hardcore players and only for a short period of time. If you are going to make an RvR game, then previous RvR games have shown that having 3 realms works better than 2 realms. Hence CU is a 3 realm RvR game. Next question....

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Lol voluntary flagging

    It's a pvp game! What would be the point of not being flagged.
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Although I do think it would be cool if they had introduced a 4th faction, like the holy Roman empire or something. To make it really stand out as camelot +
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    I like ffa in eve, because eve just works.

    Being an eu player I've had bad experiences in other takes that use gvg. Best example being Aoc, where there was thus huge Russian guild that had like half the players on the server.

    Ffa works in eve because its one big huge world wide server.

    When your talking individual servers locked to regions, you can end up with huge nationalist guilds that take over. Gvg can be just as unbalanced as fvfvf, or even more so.
  • professornomosprofessornomos Mankato, MNPosts: 67Member
    Originally posted by Tierless

    FYI the stance I took in the blog was why? My personal opinion differs from the blog in that I think without relms you end up with ginormous guild taking over servers. Relms balance things out as good as anything.

     

    FYI,  you should have posited in the OP and as well in your thesis that the blog post was a rhetorical excercise.  It encourages the reader to engage in thinking before posting.

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by professornomos
    Originally posted by Tierless FYI the stance I took in the blog was why? My personal opinion differs from the blog in that I think without relms you end up with ginormous guild taking over servers. Relms balance things out as good as anything.
     

    FYI,  you should have posited in the OP and as well in your thesis that the blog post was a rhetorical excercise.  It encourages the reader to engage in thinking before posting.


    Noted, will do from now on, I'm newb at this, bear with me.

    As for a 4th faction, I was interested in an outlaw faction that is KOS to the other 3 factions. Some players, like my EVE friends exist simply to create chaos and anarchy for all and they are proud of it. "Some men just want to see the world burn."

  • tleartlear Toronto, ONPosts: 142Member
    Eve is a very specific case that works, unfortunately the normal evolution of such games is 2 sides crystalizing then waging all out war followed by one side "winning", followed by people quitting en mass from both sides. Shadowbane as much as I liked that game was a textbook case of that. Server life span was about 4 month? It did lead to some truly epic struggles that DAOC did not really have because outcome was extinction and not capping relic. 
  • moosecatlolmoosecatlol Boring, TXPosts: 1,171Member Uncommon

    Someone mention Relm?

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tierless

    As for a 4th faction, I was interested in an outlaw faction that is KOS to the other 3 factions. Some players, like my EVE friends exist simply to create chaos and anarchy for all and they are proud of it. "Some men just want to see the world burn."

    I would have liked to see an Asian realm in CU rather than having the same realms as DAOC. It would have been easy to merge TDD and Arthurians into one realm and then add Chinese or some other totally different realm as the 3rd. 4 realms probably wouldn't be feasible because there would be that much more work to create a 4th set of classes, races, capital city, etc. You'd probably end up with one of the realms in a 4 realm system being very sparsely populated too (it might vary which realm on each server). There's a better chance for every realm to be competitive with only 3 of them.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • ButeoRegalisButeoRegalis Tijeras, NMPosts: 503Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Being an eu player I've had bad experiences in other takes that use gvg. Best example being Aoc, where there was thus huge Russian guild that had like half the players on the server.
     

    That possibility still exists even in RvR without outside intervention. TOR's faction PvP suffered (among many other things) from more people on more servers playing Imperial than Republic. GW2 has issues in their WvW where some stacked servers are matched up against servers with less WvW population, or less 24hr coverage. Unbalanced RvR undermines the whole concept.

    I don't have any good ideas how to properly create incentives, so that realms balance out, but if they don't you'll end up with big problems in RvR. I hope the devs are paying attention to this issue and come up with some good ideas, aside from just assigning people to realms.

    image

  • GardavsshadeGardavsshade Cedar Springs, MIPosts: 756Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tumblebutz
    Originally posted by redcapp
    Guilds are exclusive.  Realms are inclusive.

    I've been trying to explain why I like RvR better than GvG to people for years... and you just did it in two simple sentences.  Kudos, my friend!  Kudos!

    Yes thank you Tumblebutz, great explanation.

    I have always preferred the Inclusive approach way more than the exclusive. That might explain why I loved DAoC (pre-TOA) but only partially liked GW's GvG ystem, yet love GW2's WvWvW system.

    CU's system I would be comfortable with, might even enjoy it, but without the PvE side of things that DAoC had I am not interested in CU. In my case with DAoC the RvR was about 40% of my enjoyment factor, and the PvE 60%. No sense for me to go to CU. Better for me to continue with existing or new PvE focused MMOs.

  • ZinzanZinzan NorthPosts: 1,351Member
    Originally posted by Tierless

    If you want the long version see my blog

    Short version, why even have relms? Many of the older games didn't have factions, but you could flag yourself to sort it out via guilds and such. So why even force them on us?

    http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas/052013/25076

    Answer? MJ is stuck on the DAoC concept and this is what CU will be.

    They have unwittingly (admittedly debatable) portrayed CU as DAoC lite which is a really questionable decision, so many basic concepts are copied directly from DAoC and the name itself is clearly chosen to appeal to the DAoC player base.

     

    Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy :)

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zinzan

    They have unwittingly (admittedly debatable) portrayed CU as DAoC lite which is a really questionable decision, so many basic concepts are copied directly from DAoC and the name itself is clearly chosen to appeal to the DAoC player base.

    I don't think there is anything unwitting about it. Mark saw that there were many players who longed for a modernized version of DAOC's RvR without the forced raiding and gear grind that later xpacs added to DAOC and that's the niche game he chose to make. It worked in getting $2.3 million and counting in crowdsourced funding. The only really questionable things for me are whether he will try to change too many things from DAOC to CU and whether in light of his last attempt to make an RvR game (WAR) he and his team are really capable of creating a new fun RvR game that can thrive as a niche game.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Gard
    Also explains why I like daoc, vanilla EQ and coh pve - inclusive

    But hate wow, wow clone and latter EQ pve - exclusive
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Buteo
    In a 2 faction game, its typically "goodies vs baddies"

    So the baddies get most of the players

    In a 3 faction game its typically shades of grey. There's no baddies faction in daoc or planetside, and there won't be in cu.
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