The people that answer posts are subset (people that answer posts) of a subset (people that go to that forum) of a subset (people that go to forums) of a population (mmo players) of a subset (gamers in general).
Using a subset of a subset of a subset of a subset of a population as proof of anything , or even as an inference to anything is completely absurd.
Indeed. The classic example would be the 1936 US presidential election predictions by The Literary Digest. This is why all grand conclusions made on the basis of forum polls are likely to be utter nonsense.
Its pretty much marketing 101. Hell, its common sense!
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I think most experienced MMO players prefer skilltree based over classbased..... the feature should be added to a true sandbox, but can be added to any themepark too..
The problem is most of the class based games lack depth to their classes. A big part of EQ's success was its wonderful class system. it took several years for AA to provide any customization, but the classes played off each other so well.
The big problem with an open ended system is you can lose a ton of depth. Rift has absolutely atrocious depth for instance. yeah, you have great freedom in choosing your abilities but the result is a very meh amoeba of a character that is exactly the same as everyone else because with one button they can exactly mirror you.
A D&D type system is best IMO. look at a game like Neverwinter Nights...class based but between assigning feats and prestige classes and epic levels and all that it was incredibly deep.
I think classes give a good framework for customization on top of them, and the multispec trends needs to stop at 2 or 3 tops.
In my opinion the best system is one with similiar combat to Darkfall online, except with a skill cap that intertwines both crafting and combat so you have to pick and choose. Tab targetting is a thing of the past. New mmorpgs should at least have an Aoc/Dcuo style combat.
Originally posted by simsalabim77 EVE Online is pretty popular, but it's a niche audience for sure. It just happens that people who prefer that niche are extremely loud on these forums.
Without using the word WoW, name a themepark that has more subs.
Without using the word EVE point out a sandbox that has a large player base?
Skyrim, Minecraft, The Sims, Etropia
Skyrim is not a sandbox. You follow a quest line as much in SKYRIM as in WOW. And there is instant travel.
I think the most you can say is that sandbox is a valid form of game design. This is proven by the success of games like Minecraft, Second Life, and to some extent EVE (sandbox lite). But just like Themeparks, there are sandbox failures too. So to put a value judgment on the 'popularity' of sandbox design is sort of futile.
Skyrim is not a sandbox. You follow a quest line as much in SKYRIM as in WOW. And there is instant travel.
Minecraft is not even a combat RPG.
The designations of sandbox and themepark are not black and white categories. Better to classify games on a spectrum the boundaries of which are delineated by sandbox and themepark.
Skyrim is certainly more sandboxy than WoW. It's far easier to avoid quests in Skyrim and still progress whereas that is far more difficult to do in WoW. For example, in Skyrim at the moment, I'm playing a hunter...and by hunter I mean a character who just goes around and shoots elk, moose, deer, goats, etc. He doesn't really do any of the quests unless he comes across one that tests his 'hunting' prowess. You could also endeavor to be an excellent thief in Skyrim and burgle all the hundreds of buildings in Skyrim.
As for Minecraft and combat...a sandbox isn't solely defined by whether combat is allowed or not. Having said that, plenty of Minecraft servers are PvP oriented and allow combat as well as devious trap building to vanquish an opponent.
Originally posted by simsalabim77 EVE Online is pretty popular, but it's a niche audience for sure. It just happens that people who prefer that niche are extremely loud on these forums.
I don't think a sandbox mmo is a niche audience, I think a sci-fi mmo is niche. Myself, I just don't like Sci-Fi mmo's and will not play them. I prefer the fantasy type mmorpgs instead.
² The descriptive Free-for-all gank-fest toilet seat mmo is a copyrighted term. No unauthorized reproduction in whole or in parts shall be permitted without the express written consent of eyelolled, eyelulz, layZeye, or Hairinmysoup Productions³. This means you punk!!
³ eyelolled has no actual affiliation to any person, persona, company or institution that actually may have legal rights to the names eyelulz, layZeye, or Hairinmysoup Productions.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
Is there any proof that sandboxes are popular at all?
The only two MMOs with growing subs and companies behind them are sandbox MMOs (Eve, Darkfall)
And Eve grew to be... only a little more than the average themepark. And Darkfall, which just released will grow to be... a little less than the average themepark.
Developer choice - make game A sell 1-2 million on release and then drop to 50-500k players and sustain that.
or Game B - sell 40-100k and raise to 50-500k and sustain that.
hahahah oh man you wish that themepark games had 500k subs. Age of Conan would DIE for that much. All of them would.
I way prefer Sandbox games to Themepark games. I think a heavy Sandbox with light Themeparky content could really go a long way. The Themeparky part could be more story PVE based to tie the playerbase into the lore.
Then leave us the Sandbox to further expand on the story with maybe some Themeparky content put in later dependent on whatever metrics one would want to use to develope from.
I think there are some good examples of "popular" or well recieved at least Sandboxes. EVE Online ofc is one of them, I think Age of Wushu has a lot of appeal for Sandboxers also and does keep a slight hint of a themepark with its lighter PVE content much like EVE.
EQ Next hopefully will draw in more of the newer generation of gamers who are more accustomed to Themeparks and for us more Sandboxy people.. Enough Sand in the Box to keep us happy..
It will take a major company with some serious backing to attempt such a grand Sandbox like we're all mostly hoping for. Unfortunately now that titles such as SWTOR have shown that even with millions in the hundreds of backing doesn't neccessarily garuntee a gold nugget of joy and will sway more major developing teams away from attempting such a task.
I'd be very interested to see Sandbox element game with the same sort of backing that Bioware / EA had on that project..
PM before you report at least or you could just block.
Is there any proof that sandboxes are popular at all?
The only two MMOs with growing subs and companies behind them are sandbox MMOs (Eve, Darkfall)
And Eve grew to be... only a little more than the average themepark. And Darkfall, which just released will grow to be... a little less than the average themepark.
Developer choice - make game A sell 1-2 million on release and then drop to 50-500k players and sustain that.
or Game B - sell 40-100k and raise to 50-500k and sustain that.
hahahah oh man you wish that themepark games had 500k subs. Age of Conan would DIE for that much. All of them would.
Several do have near 500k subs. and I said 50-500 which pretty much all of them have.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
This market can only hold this many themeparks before players had enough of themepark nonsense. Together with the lack of quality and well-known sandboxes, players will point fingers at themeparks, saying themeparks is no longer popular. But since sandboxes' popularity neither wax nor wane, it will stand out, and be proclaimed as the new popular kid, even the sandbox did nothing over the years.
The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.
BTW all the themepark players are playing/paying a themepark game right now. Only sandbox gamers have the free time to answer polls.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Yes, anyone thinking that EQN is going to be a PVP mmo first and foremost will be in for a shock. Yes it will have a PVP system don't look to that game for all your PvP kicks.
Originally posted by RefMinor Originally posted by simsalabim77 EVE Online is pretty popular, but it's a niche audience for sure. It just happens that people who prefer that niche are extremely loud on these forums.
Without using the word WoW, name a themepark that has more subs.
EQ at its peak. SWTOR still has almost 500k subs currently and they have stated that it is trending higher as f2p gamers make the switch. I don't know the numbers for Rift, but I have a feeling it is on par with Eve if not surpassing it.
I prefer a nice mix of themepark and sanbox elements, but if I have to go strictly one or the other, I'll take themepark over a complete sandbox anyday. I did not like UO or SWG or A Tale of the Desert, the only sandbox games I have played. I have never wanted to try Eve as I am not fond of games that play more like a spreadsheet. I do not find number crunching fun and I learned that the hard way in Anarchy Online.
EQ wasn't a themepark it was a hybrid, it was skill based and had a class system. You can't put EQ in the same bracket as WOW or Rift. Are you sure you actually played EQ, also the game peaked at around 500k.
EQ wasn't a themepark it was a hybrid, it was skill based and had a class system. You can't put EQ in the same bracket as WOW or Rift. Are you sure you actually played EQ, also the game peaked at around 500k.
The character building system hardly determines whether a game is themepark of sandbox. A themepark can be classless just as much a sandbox can have classes.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by DamonVile how many ppl actually think mmorpg.com represents your avg mmo gamer ?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
EQ wasn't a themepark it was a hybrid, it was skill based and had a class system. You can't put EQ in the same bracket as WOW or Rift. Are you sure you actually played EQ, also the game peaked at around 500k.
The character building system hardly determines whether a game is themepark of sandbox. A themepark can be classless just as much a sandbox can have classes.
Did you miss the part where i said hybrid?
EQ1 didn’t originally have any goals. Hitting the level cap wasn’t something the devs particularly expected anyone to do after all, the content pretty much ran out in the late thirties/early forties until the planes were released (for levels 46+). It was fully designed to be a 3D MUD, a place for people to chat and socialize while killing stuff and collecting gear and exploring.
EQ explicitly added the raid tool with the Planes of Power expansion, remember finally not having to use /ooc, /auc and /shout to coordinate raids? And the reason you had to do this was because people would be xping in raid zones. They’d stick big bad monsters in the same place lower levels were getting stuff done.
Sometimes the raid bosses would just be roaming the zones, looking for players to eat. Not on the edges like WoW’s open world roamers (who, iirc, weren’t initially aggro and also you could run from), but like Gorenaire and others, actively making you regret damaging your dragon faction. Anyway, all raid bosses up to Gates of Discord, once killed, were killed for everyone. Talk about stuff to fight over.
On the PvP servers, at least Tallon and Vallon Zek, factions could take control of whole zones. Trying to figure out which zones were safe to travel through TODAY was murder. Literally.
UO, EQ, AC and arguably DAoC were MMOs developed before catagories existed. It’s only the next stage of MMOs that had the vantage point to look back and see, from all that had gone before, upon what philosophies to base their game. UO was based on little tile-based RPGs. EQ was based on MUDs.
The only real way they were connected is they were both multiplayer and real-time. Neither intended from the start to provide anything more than a fun virtual world of adventure. So in that respect, in that philosophy, they are the same.Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. WoW originated the theme park, and its popularity forced that model everywhere else. Including, ultimately, EQ2.
If EQ needs to be placed into the later catogories of sandbox/themepark/hybrid then you would have to say hybrid.
SWG was a fantastic sandbox, but I always felt it needed more directed content.
WoW was (was) a great theme park, but I always felt it needed more depth/sandboxiness.
Combine the scripted/directed content with the crafting, housing, class structure etc of SWG and I'll be all over that like white on rice.
Which would be games like ArcheAge and Age Of Wushu, hybrid is the future. Games like GW2, NW and TESO are imo the last of a dying breed. Even Wildstar has more hybrid features than the total themeparks that are the games i've mentioned.
SWG was a fantastic sandbox, but I always felt it needed more directed content.
WoW was (was) a great theme park, but I always felt it needed more depth/sandboxiness.
Combine the scripted/directed content with the crafting, housing, class structure etc of SWG and I'll be all over that like white on rice.
Which would be games like ArcheAge and Age Of Wushu, hybrid is the future. Games like GW2, NW and TESO are imo the last of a dying breed. Even Wildstar has more hybrid features than the total themeparks that are the games i've mentioned.
This! x10^5
I am in love with the idea that on a whim, I could go for one or the other depending on what I want to do that day. Some days I crave a bit of structure and linearity, other days I want the freedom to do my own thing and interact with the community in my own way. A finely honed hybrid is the holy grail of my gaming experiences. (Waiting for Age of Wulin, ping won't let me do pvp properly in Wushu)
I would have voted for themepark/sandbox hybrid had I been able to. Is it a surprise to anyone that players want more out of a MMO than press two keys and running down a ribbon of landscape?
I would have voted for themepark/sandbox hybrid had I been able to. Is it a surprise to anyone that players want more out of a MMO than press two keys and running down a ribbon of landscape?
I get the feeling the results are not to the OP liking lol, think he though themepark was going to win out.
Comments
Indeed. The classic example would be the 1936 US presidential election predictions by The Literary Digest. This is why all grand conclusions made on the basis of forum polls are likely to be utter nonsense.
Its pretty much marketing 101. Hell, its common sense!
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
In my opinion the best system is one with similiar combat to Darkfall online, except with a skill cap that intertwines both crafting and combat so you have to pick and choose. Tab targetting is a thing of the past. New mmorpgs should at least have an Aoc/Dcuo style combat.
MurderHerd
Skyrim is not a sandbox. You follow a quest line as much in SKYRIM as in WOW. And there is instant travel.
Minecraft is not even a combat RPG.
The designations of sandbox and themepark are not black and white categories. Better to classify games on a spectrum the boundaries of which are delineated by sandbox and themepark.
Skyrim is certainly more sandboxy than WoW. It's far easier to avoid quests in Skyrim and still progress whereas that is far more difficult to do in WoW. For example, in Skyrim at the moment, I'm playing a hunter...and by hunter I mean a character who just goes around and shoots elk, moose, deer, goats, etc. He doesn't really do any of the quests unless he comes across one that tests his 'hunting' prowess. You could also endeavor to be an excellent thief in Skyrim and burgle all the hundreds of buildings in Skyrim.
As for Minecraft and combat...a sandbox isn't solely defined by whether combat is allowed or not. Having said that, plenty of Minecraft servers are PvP oriented and allow combat as well as devious trap building to vanquish an opponent.
I don't think a sandbox mmo is a niche audience, I think a sci-fi mmo is niche. Myself, I just don't like Sci-Fi mmo's and will not play them. I prefer the fantasy type mmorpgs instead.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
I don't like the OP's poll, it's to "black and white". I would LOVE to play a sandbox, but I have to desire to play a free-for-all gank-fest toilet seat² mmo (I use the toilet seat analogy because of all the assholes that seem to accumulate there - ba dum tshh ©)
² The descriptive Free-for-all gank-fest toilet seat mmo is a copyrighted term. No unauthorized reproduction in whole or in parts shall be permitted without the express written consent of eyelolled, eyelulz, layZeye, or Hairinmysoup Productions³. This means you punk!!
³ eyelolled has no actual affiliation to any person, persona, company or institution that actually may have legal rights to the names eyelulz, layZeye, or Hairinmysoup Productions.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
hahahah oh man you wish that themepark games had 500k subs. Age of Conan would DIE for that much. All of them would.
I way prefer Sandbox games to Themepark games. I think a heavy Sandbox with light Themeparky content could really go a long way. The Themeparky part could be more story PVE based to tie the playerbase into the lore.
Then leave us the Sandbox to further expand on the story with maybe some Themeparky content put in later dependent on whatever metrics one would want to use to develope from.
I think there are some good examples of "popular" or well recieved at least Sandboxes. EVE Online ofc is one of them, I think Age of Wushu has a lot of appeal for Sandboxers also and does keep a slight hint of a themepark with its lighter PVE content much like EVE.
EQ Next hopefully will draw in more of the newer generation of gamers who are more accustomed to Themeparks and for us more Sandboxy people.. Enough Sand in the Box to keep us happy..
It will take a major company with some serious backing to attempt such a grand Sandbox like we're all mostly hoping for. Unfortunately now that titles such as SWTOR have shown that even with millions in the hundreds of backing doesn't neccessarily garuntee a gold nugget of joy and will sway more major developing teams away from attempting such a task.
I'd be very interested to see Sandbox element game with the same sort of backing that Bioware / EA had on that project..
PM before you report at least or you could just block.
f2p with sub option. Analyst did say it had 20 million players. Snail says 15 million. Maybe one is subs, and one is accounts.
Several do have near 500k subs. and I said 50-500 which pretty much all of them have.
The proof lies on reverse psychology.
This market can only hold this many themeparks before players had enough of themepark nonsense. Together with the lack of quality and well-known sandboxes, players will point fingers at themeparks, saying themeparks is no longer popular. But since sandboxes' popularity neither wax nor wane, it will stand out, and be proclaimed as the new popular kid, even the sandbox did nothing over the years.
The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.
BTW all the themepark players are playing/paying a themepark game right now. Only sandbox gamers have the free time to answer polls.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Yes, anyone thinking that EQN is going to be a PVP mmo first and foremost will be in for a shock. Yes it will have a PVP system don't look to that game for all your PvP kicks.Without using the word WoW, name a themepark that has more subs.
EQ at its peak. SWTOR still has almost 500k subs currently and they have stated that it is trending higher as f2p gamers make the switch. I don't know the numbers for Rift, but I have a feeling it is on par with Eve if not surpassing it.
I prefer a nice mix of themepark and sanbox elements, but if I have to go strictly one or the other, I'll take themepark over a complete sandbox anyday. I did not like UO or SWG or A Tale of the Desert, the only sandbox games I have played. I have never wanted to try Eve as I am not fond of games that play more like a spreadsheet. I do not find number crunching fun and I learned that the hard way in Anarchy Online.
EQ wasn't a themepark it was a hybrid, it was skill based and had a class system. You can't put EQ in the same bracket as WOW or Rift. Are you sure you actually played EQ, also the game peaked at around 500k.
The character building system hardly determines whether a game is themepark of sandbox. A themepark can be classless just as much a sandbox can have classes.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Did you miss the part where i said hybrid?
EQ1 didn’t originally have any goals. Hitting the level cap wasn’t something the devs particularly expected anyone to do after all, the content pretty much ran out in the late thirties/early forties until the planes were released (for levels 46+). It was fully designed to be a 3D MUD, a place for people to chat and socialize while killing stuff and collecting gear and exploring.
EQ explicitly added the raid tool with the Planes of Power expansion, remember finally not having to use /ooc, /auc and /shout to coordinate raids? And the reason you had to do this was because people would be xping in raid zones. They’d stick big bad monsters in the same place lower levels were getting stuff done.
Sometimes the raid bosses would just be roaming the zones, looking for players to eat. Not on the edges like WoW’s open world roamers (who, iirc, weren’t initially aggro and also you could run from), but like Gorenaire and others, actively making you regret damaging your dragon faction. Anyway, all raid bosses up to Gates of Discord, once killed, were killed for everyone. Talk about stuff to fight over.
On the PvP servers, at least Tallon and Vallon Zek, factions could take control of whole zones. Trying to figure out which zones were safe to travel through TODAY was murder. Literally.
UO, EQ, AC and arguably DAoC were MMOs developed before catagories existed. It’s only the next stage of MMOs that had the vantage point to look back and see, from all that had gone before, upon what philosophies to base their game. UO was based on little tile-based RPGs. EQ was based on MUDs.
The only real way they were connected is they were both multiplayer and real-time. Neither intended from the start to provide anything more than a fun virtual world of adventure. So in that respect, in that philosophy, they are the same.Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. WoW originated the theme park, and its popularity forced that model everywhere else. Including, ultimately, EQ2.
If EQ needs to be placed into the later catogories of sandbox/themepark/hybrid then you would have to say hybrid.
Did you actually play classic EQ?
I want both in the same game.
SWG was a fantastic sandbox, but I always felt it needed more directed content.
WoW was (was) a great theme park, but I always felt it needed more depth/sandboxiness.
Combine the scripted/directed content with the crafting, housing, class structure etc of SWG and I'll be all over that like white on rice.
Yeah a lot of people want a good sandbox game.. its one of the reasons why so many have been recently backed on kickstarter..
Will a sandbox game be as popular as wow.. no probably not.. but nothing will be.
Which would be games like ArcheAge and Age Of Wushu, hybrid is the future. Games like GW2, NW and TESO are imo the last of a dying breed. Even Wildstar has more hybrid features than the total themeparks that are the games i've mentioned.
This! x10^5
I am in love with the idea that on a whim, I could go for one or the other depending on what I want to do that day. Some days I crave a bit of structure and linearity, other days I want the freedom to do my own thing and interact with the community in my own way. A finely honed hybrid is the holy grail of my gaming experiences. (Waiting for Age of Wulin, ping won't let me do pvp properly in Wushu)
Well there is your proof OP!
I would have voted for themepark/sandbox hybrid had I been able to. Is it a surprise to anyone that players want more out of a MMO than press two keys and running down a ribbon of landscape?
I get the feeling the results are not to the OP liking lol, think he though themepark was going to win out.