What happened was most of the older mmorpgs were sandbox or themepark with sandbox features and limits. After the release of WoW(Which has FFA PVP, defusing the debate on sandbox players not like PVP anywhere) they tried to copy WoW removing all aspects of sandbox from games that tried to clone its success. Instead of trying to be different and unique games had a model to follow and follow they did even if it spelled doom.
Sandbox mmorpgs were decent from the start (SWG, Uo and variant themepark that weren't part of the status quo model like DAOC and SB), but over time as more casual people entered the market the demographics changed and what the causal people were railed into thinking was fun became the norm. There are some companies that tried to make sandbox mmorpgs, but since they don't have proper funding and experience they tend to flop.(They need to give equal freedom to all play styles, the pvpers, pvers, crafters and explorers) Once companies start product AAA mmorpgs that shake up the status quo we will see better games.
Optimally the best mmorpg would be sandbox with some themepark elements attached.
Originally posted by DrakynnI really don't see the point of this poll personally.All it will prove is that a active group on this site prefers one or the other.It would in no way constitute proof either way when applied to the whole market.
Using statistical analysis one could infer information about the overall population of mmorpg players using the small sample from mmorpg.com. The only truly flawed thing about the poll here is that it is a voluntary response poll and thus not a totally random sample.
There are a lot of things wrong with polls on sites like these. One is that the people are opting themselves in. Two is the question and poll options; do they actually reflect the information that we want to know? Third is that there is no additional information about the people responding other than their answers. How many hours a week to each of the responders play MMOs? Which MMOs do they play? Do they play games besides MMOs? There's almost nothing about polls on these forums that is 'right'. The only thing these polls might be used for is to get an idea of how people on these forums think, and even that is suspect because of how the questions and poll options are worded.
** ** **
If you're going to use statistical analysis, you would start your science before the poll was even offered up, and you wouldn't use the polls that this site offers.
None of this, besides the first point (which I mentioned), would disqualify the information in this poll from being applicable to the overall population. It's a binomial distribution. Meaning there are two choices either you prefer sandbox mmos (yes) or you prefer themeparks (no, do not prefer sandboxes).
But the first point is crucial.Without a randomly selected cross section of the gaming populace of sufficient size the result will be skewed and unreliable.Which was the point of my post in the first place.Any extrapolation form this poll is flawed from the start.
What happened was most of the older mmorpgs were sandbox or themepark with sandbox features and limits. After the release of WoW(Which has FFA PVP, defusing the debate on sandbox players not like PVP anywhere) they tried to copy WoW removing all aspects of sandbox from games that tried to clone its success. Instead of trying to be different and unique games had a model to follow and follow they did even if it spelled doom.
Sandbox mmorpgs were decent from the start (SWG, Uo and variant themepark that weren't part of the status quo model like DAOC and SB), but over time as more casual people entered the market the demographics changed and what the causal people were railed into thinking was fun became the norm. There are some companies that tried to make sandbox mmorpgs, but since they don't have proper funding and experience they tend to flop.(They need to give equal freedom to all play styles, the pvpers, pvers, crafters and explorers) Once companies start product AAA mmorpgs that shake up the status quo we will see better games.
Optimally the best mmorpg would be sandbox with some themepark elements attached.
Some of the older sandbox games became sandboxes becase they lacked content, ... So people cae up with their own reasons to play.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Originally posted by simsalabim77 EVE Online is pretty popular, but it's a niche audience for sure. It just happens that people who prefer that niche are extremely loud on these forums.
Without using the word WoW, name a themepark that has more subs.
Not a fair question. You use the "Poster Boy" for sandbox-ish games and rule out the use of the "Poster Boy" of themeparks for comparison.
How about this: Name a sandbox-ish game, BESIDES EVE that has a good amount of payers playing it.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I think most experienced MMO players prefer skilltree based over classbased..... the feature should be added to a true sandbox, but can be added to any themepark too..
The problem is most of the class based games lack depth to their classes. A big part of EQ's success was its wonderful class system. it took several years for AA to provide any customization, but the classes played off each other so well.
The big problem with an open ended system is you can lose a ton of depth. Rift has absolutely atrocious depth for instance. yeah, you have great freedom in choosing your abilities but the result is a very meh amoeba of a character that is exactly the same as everyone else because with one button they can exactly mirror you.
A D&D type system is best IMO. look at a game like Neverwinter Nights...class based but between assigning feats and prestige classes and epic levels and all that it was incredibly deep.
I think classes give a good framework for customization on top of them, and the multispec trends needs to stop at 2 or 3 tops.
Originally posted by DrakynnI really don't see the point of this poll personally.All it will prove is that a active group on this site prefers one or the other.It would in no way constitute proof either way when applied to the whole market.
Using statistical analysis one could infer information about the overall population of mmorpg players using the small sample from mmorpg.com. The only truly flawed thing about the poll here is that it is a voluntary response poll and thus not a totally random sample.
There are a lot of things wrong with polls on sites like these. One is that the people are opting themselves in. Two is the question and poll options; do they actually reflect the information that we want to know? Third is that there is no additional information about the people responding other than their answers. How many hours a week to each of the responders play MMOs? Which MMOs do they play? Do they play games besides MMOs? There's almost nothing about polls on these forums that is 'right'. The only thing these polls might be used for is to get an idea of how people on these forums think, and even that is suspect because of how the questions and poll options are worded.
** ** **
If you're going to use statistical analysis, you would start your science before the poll was even offered up, and you wouldn't use the polls that this site offers.
None of this, besides the first point (which I mentioned), would disqualify the information in this poll from being applicable to the overall population. It's a binomial distribution. Meaning there are two choices either you prefer sandbox mmos (yes) or you prefer themeparks (no, do not prefer sandboxes).
But the first point is crucial.Without a randomly selected cross section of the gaming populace of sufficient size the result will be skewed and unreliable.Which was the point of my post in the first place.Any extrapolation form this poll is flawed from the start.
Right, but for the fact convenience sampling, as it's referred, is done very often, albeit mainly without the knowledge of people viewing the information provided by the poll.To fix this, we could take a point in time estimate of all users logged into mmorpg.com at that particular instant and use that as our "site population". Next, number everyone in that point estimate from 1 - x, where x equals the total users logged in when we took our population estimate, then randomly select at least 30 for our sample to be given the initial two choice poll from this post. No one will likely ever end up doing all that. So, although the information in this poll isn't optimal, it gives a very general idea of how people feel without use of a somewhat tedious process, one which we have no way of really performing.
Originally posted by Shadowguy64 Would a sandbox work for a non-PVP centric crowd?
would bet alot on a PvE sandbox would work 100x better than a PvP sandbox.....for the majority....but guess need some proof for that ; )
Here are two:
Free Realms
Minecraft multiplayer with friends and family (and not random jackasses... unless they are friends or family )
In a sandbox a lot of people want to build or create. It's play time, toy time, creative time - most people aren't doing those things to be competitive, and most certainly aren't doing it with the intent of having someone come over and crap on it.
Yeah I guess there's a "challenge" to trying to draw on an etch a sketch while someone keeps bumping your arm or to build a sand castle at the beach while fending off people who want to kick down the walls, but it's a safe bet that most people aren't looking for that type of challenge.
And there's always the argument that PVP is needed because if your creation can't be taken away, destroyed, damaged or vandalize then it's "meaningless," but if we are honest with ourselves, I doubt many here that would agree that when building or creating during their leisure time they felt their drawing, painting, model, etc would have any more meaning if they had to fend off morons that wanted to destroy it while they were creating it. If anything, that would make most avoid that activity altogether, and resent they had to avoid it in the process.
Now, this isn't to say that I have any problem with PVP sandbox games. I enjoy them more than any other type of MMO. I'm just able to acknowledge that most people aren't looking for meaning, challenge, and competition when they bust open a can of Play-Doh.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
i been playing this games forever and like both.. for me though as someone with a family i like them for different reasons.
I like sandbox games because they are more player/community driven but also generally require longer play sessions to get things done.. with a family sometimes I just want to enjoy playing and not always having to pay attention all the time ot whats going on. When the kids are asleep though i do enjoy games with a bit more to them and more complex and deeper systems.
For me the issue is most sandbox games i have played are just not fun imho.. EvE was fun when i played years ago but don't really have much interest getting back into it.. i dont enjoy the combat in the darkfall games, AoW localization and company behind it ruined that one for me. SWG was the last sandboxy type game I even played for a long period of time.
Looking into upcomming games looks like lots of ambitious more sandboxy style games coming like the repopulation, archage, EQnext, Black Desert online, CU, Star Citizen... I figure if only one of those delivers BIG i will be a happy camper.. for the themeparks got plenty to keep me busy when i want my quick fix and plenty new ones coming i'm interested in as well like wildstar, TESO, FFXIV.. anyway should be an interesting next couple years in the MMO world
think sandbox style games will be a lot more popular in the coming years when bigger titles with decent budgets come out
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
The people that answer posts are subset (people that answer posts) of a subset (people that go to that forum) of a subset (people that go to forums) of a population (mmo players) of a subset (gamers in general).
Using a subset of a subset of a subset of a subset of a population as proof of anything , or even as an inference to anything is completely absurd.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by Shadowguy64 Would a sandbox work for a non-PVP centric crowd?
pve sandbox would work just fine.
I can only imagine
A knight and full plate in his garden watering his flowers and harvesting petals to decorate his house with... Mmmm the excitement
A classic example of the crazy baggage that the average MMO gamer has attached to the term "MMO" - thinking beyond "Fantasy Fighter Guy" is beyond anything they could possibly imagination.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Loktofeit There is plenty of proof that single-player sandboxes are very popular.
That's where I get confused. I enjoy some SP sandbox-like games (SimCity - Yes, but NOT Minecraft) but really have no desire to play them in a multiplayer environment. I don't want what I spent time and effort building to be torn by other players, unless I feel like redoing it
It would be nice to show off what I have done in game to other players, but we now have YouTube for that and a LOT less headaches with that route.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by DrakynnI really don't see the point of this poll personally.All it will prove is that a active group on this site prefers one or the other.It would in no way constitute proof either way when applied to the whole market.
Using statistical analysis one could infer information about the overall population of mmorpg players using the small sample from mmorpg.com. The only truly flawed thing about the poll here is that it is a voluntary response poll and thus not a totally random sample.
There are a lot of things wrong with polls on sites like these. One is that the people are opting themselves in. Two is the question and poll options; do they actually reflect the information that we want to know? Third is that there is no additional information about the people responding other than their answers. How many hours a week to each of the responders play MMOs? Which MMOs do they play? Do they play games besides MMOs? There's almost nothing about polls on these forums that is 'right'. The only thing these polls might be used for is to get an idea of how people on these forums think, and even that is suspect because of how the questions and poll options are worded. ** ** ** If you're going to use statistical analysis, you would start your science before the poll was even offered up, and you wouldn't use the polls that this site offers.
None of this, besides the first point (which I mentioned), would disqualify the information in this poll from being applicable to the overall population. It's a binomial distribution. Meaning there are two choices either you prefer sandbox mmos (yes) or you prefer themeparks (no, do not prefer sandboxes).
[mod edit], what population do the people answering the poll represent? Even if you collect a random sample you need some additional information to have any idea who the people answering your poll represent.
Do they represent the general population of gamers or some specific population of gamers? It's probably a combination of specific populations that have answered the poll, whether they are self selected or not. Without additional information, you have no idea who the people answering your poll represent, other than "people who answered this poll". With the additional information you can eliminate the bias of "people who look for polls and answer them".
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Loktofeit There is plenty of proof that single-player sandboxes are very popular.
That's where I get confused. I enjoy some SP sandbox-like games (SimCity - Yes, but NOT Minecraft) but really have no desire to play them in a multiplayer environment. I don't want what I spent time and effort building to be torn by other players, unless I feel like redoing it
It would be nice to show off what I have done in game to other players, but we now have YouTube for that and a LOT less headaches with that route.
I agree with the Minecraft example but for different reasons (TBH the problem is easily solved with an access system you can place on things). I don't want to play a sandbox that is entirely focused on building and creating. I love it as a feature but not the main meat of the game. There has to be more than mining for materials and building things.
Originally posted by AlBQuirky Originally posted by Loktofeit There is plenty of proof that single-player sandboxes are very popular.
That's where I get confused. I enjoy some SP sandbox-like games (SimCity - Yes, but NOT Minecraft) but really have no desire to play them in a multiplayer environment. I don't want what I spent time and effort building to be torn by other players, unless I feel like redoing it
It would be nice to show off what I have done in game to other players, but we now have YouTube for that and a LOT less headaches with that route.
For me, it's the features that make single player sandboxes great that would make the MMO setting not great. A sandbox generally means being able to build something, whether that something is a castle or a financial empire. Well, an MMO sandbox generally means someone else can come along and destroy what you've built. There are a lot of people who enjoy this kind of thing, but I'm not really one of them. So it doesn't seem that strange to me that I enjoy single player and multi player by invite sandboxes, but that MMO sandboxes or sandboxes with strangers are much less appealing unless the people running the sandbox have put some rules in place that I can live with.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Originally posted by simsalabim77 EVE Online is pretty popular, but it's a niche audience for sure. It just happens that people who prefer that niche are extremely loud on these forums.
Without using the word WoW, name a themepark that has more subs.
EQ at its peak. SWTOR still has almost 500k subs currently and they have stated that it is trending higher as f2p gamers make the switch. I don't know the numbers for Rift, but I have a feeling it is on par with Eve if not surpassing it.
I prefer a nice mix of themepark and sanbox elements, but if I have to go strictly one or the other, I'll take themepark over a complete sandbox anyday. I did not like UO or SWG or A Tale of the Desert, the only sandbox games I have played. I have never wanted to try Eve as I am not fond of games that play more like a spreadsheet. I do not find number crunching fun and I learned that the hard way in Anarchy Online.
Comments
pve sandbox would work just fine.
What happened was most of the older mmorpgs were sandbox or themepark with sandbox features and limits. After the release of WoW(Which has FFA PVP, defusing the debate on sandbox players not like PVP anywhere) they tried to copy WoW removing all aspects of sandbox from games that tried to clone its success. Instead of trying to be different and unique games had a model to follow and follow they did even if it spelled doom.
Sandbox mmorpgs were decent from the start (SWG, Uo and variant themepark that weren't part of the status quo model like DAOC and SB), but over time as more casual people entered the market the demographics changed and what the causal people were railed into thinking was fun became the norm. There are some companies that tried to make sandbox mmorpgs, but since they don't have proper funding and experience they tend to flop.(They need to give equal freedom to all play styles, the pvpers, pvers, crafters and explorers) Once companies start product AAA mmorpgs that shake up the status quo we will see better games.
Optimally the best mmorpg would be sandbox with some themepark elements attached.
MurderHerd
But the first point is crucial.Without a randomly selected cross section of the gaming populace of sufficient size the result will be skewed and unreliable.Which was the point of my post in the first place.Any extrapolation form this poll is flawed from the start.
Some of the older sandbox games became sandboxes becase they lacked content, ... So people cae up with their own reasons to play.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
would bet alot on a PvE sandbox would work 100x better than a PvP sandbox.....for the majority....but guess need some proof for that ; )
I can only imagine
A knight and full plate in his garden watering his flowers and harvesting petals to decorate his house with... Mmmm the excitement
How about this:
Name a sandbox-ish game, BESIDES EVE that has a good amount of payers playing it.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Are you sure? I mean the game is f2p right? So how do you know how many people are actively playing vs accounts created?
If thats all you can imagine doing in a pve game you need more experience and a greater imagination
The problem is most of the class based games lack depth to their classes. A big part of EQ's success was its wonderful class system. it took several years for AA to provide any customization, but the classes played off each other so well.
The big problem with an open ended system is you can lose a ton of depth. Rift has absolutely atrocious depth for instance. yeah, you have great freedom in choosing your abilities but the result is a very meh amoeba of a character that is exactly the same as everyone else because with one button they can exactly mirror you.
A D&D type system is best IMO. look at a game like Neverwinter Nights...class based but between assigning feats and prestige classes and epic levels and all that it was incredibly deep.
I think classes give a good framework for customization on top of them, and the multispec trends needs to stop at 2 or 3 tops.
right.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
It would work even better for a non-PvP crowd
Right, but for the fact convenience sampling, as it's referred, is done very often, albeit mainly without the knowledge of people viewing the information provided by the poll.To fix this, we could take a point in time estimate of all users logged into mmorpg.com at that particular instant and use that as our "site population". Next, number everyone in that point estimate from 1 - x, where x equals the total users logged in when we took our population estimate, then randomly select at least 30 for our sample to be given the initial two choice poll from this post. No one will likely ever end up doing all that. So, although the information in this poll isn't optimal, it gives a very general idea of how people feel without use of a somewhat tedious process, one which we have no way of really performing.
Here are two:
In a sandbox a lot of people want to build or create. It's play time, toy time, creative time - most people aren't doing those things to be competitive, and most certainly aren't doing it with the intent of having someone come over and crap on it.
Yeah I guess there's a "challenge" to trying to draw on an etch a sketch while someone keeps bumping your arm or to build a sand castle at the beach while fending off people who want to kick down the walls, but it's a safe bet that most people aren't looking for that type of challenge.
And there's always the argument that PVP is needed because if your creation can't be taken away, destroyed, damaged or vandalize then it's "meaningless," but if we are honest with ourselves, I doubt many here that would agree that when building or creating during their leisure time they felt their drawing, painting, model, etc would have any more meaning if they had to fend off morons that wanted to destroy it while they were creating it. If anything, that would make most avoid that activity altogether, and resent they had to avoid it in the process.
Now, this isn't to say that I have any problem with PVP sandbox games. I enjoy them more than any other type of MMO. I'm just able to acknowledge that most people aren't looking for meaning, challenge, and competition when they bust open a can of Play-Doh.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
i been playing this games forever and like both.. for me though as someone with a family i like them for different reasons.
I like sandbox games because they are more player/community driven but also generally require longer play sessions to get things done.. with a family sometimes I just want to enjoy playing and not always having to pay attention all the time ot whats going on. When the kids are asleep though i do enjoy games with a bit more to them and more complex and deeper systems.
For me the issue is most sandbox games i have played are just not fun imho.. EvE was fun when i played years ago but don't really have much interest getting back into it.. i dont enjoy the combat in the darkfall games, AoW localization and company behind it ruined that one for me. SWG was the last sandboxy type game I even played for a long period of time.
Looking into upcomming games looks like lots of ambitious more sandboxy style games coming like the repopulation, archage, EQnext, Black Desert online, CU, Star Citizen... I figure if only one of those delivers BIG i will be a happy camper.. for the themeparks got plenty to keep me busy when i want my quick fix and plenty new ones coming i'm interested in as well like wildstar, TESO, FFXIV.. anyway should be an interesting next couple years in the MMO world
think sandbox style games will be a lot more popular in the coming years when bigger titles with decent budgets come out
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
The people that answer posts are subset (people that answer posts) of a subset (people that go to that forum) of a subset (people that go to forums) of a population (mmo players) of a subset (gamers in general).
Using a subset of a subset of a subset of a subset of a population as proof of anything , or even as an inference to anything is completely absurd.
A classic example of the crazy baggage that the average MMO gamer has attached to the term "MMO" - thinking beyond "Fantasy Fighter Guy" is beyond anything they could possibly imagination.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It would be nice to show off what I have done in game to other players, but we now have YouTube for that and a LOT less headaches with that route.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
[mod edit], what population do the people answering the poll represent? Even if you collect a random sample you need some additional information to have any idea who the people answering your poll represent.Do they represent the general population of gamers or some specific population of gamers? It's probably a combination of specific populations that have answered the poll, whether they are self selected or not. Without additional information, you have no idea who the people answering your poll represent, other than "people who answered this poll". With the additional information you can eliminate the bias of "people who look for polls and answer them".
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I agree with the Minecraft example but for different reasons (TBH the problem is easily solved with an access system you can place on things). I don't want to play a sandbox that is entirely focused on building and creating. I love it as a feature but not the main meat of the game. There has to be more than mining for materials and building things.
It would be nice to show off what I have done in game to other players, but we now have YouTube for that and a LOT less headaches with that route.
For me, it's the features that make single player sandboxes great that would make the MMO setting not great. A sandbox generally means being able to build something, whether that something is a castle or a financial empire. Well, an MMO sandbox generally means someone else can come along and destroy what you've built. There are a lot of people who enjoy this kind of thing, but I'm not really one of them. So it doesn't seem that strange to me that I enjoy single player and multi player by invite sandboxes, but that MMO sandboxes or sandboxes with strangers are much less appealing unless the people running the sandbox have put some rules in place that I can live with.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The MMORPG.com yearly get together.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
EQ at its peak. SWTOR still has almost 500k subs currently and they have stated that it is trending higher as f2p gamers make the switch. I don't know the numbers for Rift, but I have a feeling it is on par with Eve if not surpassing it.
I prefer a nice mix of themepark and sanbox elements, but if I have to go strictly one or the other, I'll take themepark over a complete sandbox anyday. I did not like UO or SWG or A Tale of the Desert, the only sandbox games I have played. I have never wanted to try Eve as I am not fond of games that play more like a spreadsheet. I do not find number crunching fun and I learned that the hard way in Anarchy Online.