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THE411 on NeverWinter "pay2win"

135

Comments

  • AmjocoAmjoco Layton, UTPosts: 4,777Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by winter
    Originally posted by Vannor
    Originally posted by Shazzel
    Originally posted by Vannor
    Originally posted by Shazzel
    /snip

    Did I say anything about bags?

    I will if you want though...

    You can create an unlimited amount of free accounts and mail your items for free to those characters and use them as mules. There, problem solved.

    Or.. mail your items to yourself and leave them in the mailbox until you need them.

    You are basicly agree'ing with the article, you can get everything for free, but its VASTLY faster/easier to attain with a credit card. The average Joe will want bags and bank slots, not the mailbox run-around.

    The article says be prepared to spend $250-$500.

    I just explained why people shouldn't be prepared to spend that.

     Seriously i can't see why anyone would spend anywhere near those amounts in a game were one can reach max level in a mouth without paying anything. Hell the OP says he didn't pay anything and made it to end game in what 2 weeks.

      SO Yay you can pay to look ultra cool or to reach the end game in one week but really even the Op admits you don't have to spend a dime to have fun and enjoy the game to the end.

    Here is my opinion or what I think end game is now. Since WoW was get to max level and get raid gear, and get even better raid gear, that has ended. Like for example GW2 you can reach level 80 rather quickly but getting Legendary gear is near impossible from my point of view. So, end game now doesn't really revolve around hitting max level. Just because the OP got to "end game", does he have the best gear and achieved all of what the game has to offer? We need to stop thinking of end game the same as we use to imho.

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • Pandaman102Pandaman102 Hong KongPosts: 94Member
    Originally posted by winter

    Seriously i can't see why anyone would spend anywhere near those amounts in a game were one can reach max level in a mouth without paying anything. Hell the OP says he didn't pay anything and made it to end game in what 2 weeks.

      SO Yay you can pay to look ultra cool or to reach the end game in one week but really even the Op admits you don't have to spend a dime to have fun and enjoy the game to the end.

    You might wonder that, but clearly there are enough suckers out there who do pay that much in F2P games for it to become PWI's core business model - and a successful enough one that they expanded into North America.

  • pmilespmiles Federal Way, WAPosts: 383Member

    Excuse me... but it seems what we have here is the classic have versus the have not argument.

     

    Let us assume for a moment that we are playing WoW.  Arena junkies we are.  We start off on day one like mad and earn our way into the best gear in short order.  We then head over to standard BGs and WTF face roll over all those who are just entering into PVP for the first time.  How is that any different than someone who purchased said advantage?  (Not suggesting that the item shops are P2W, just pointing out that "unfairness" abounds whether its sub-based or not).

     

    Apply the same thing to the most cutting edge guilds running around in their legendaries and 500 speed rare mounts for killing boss X before anyone else.  

     

    Then consider for a moment what happens when the developers step in and make it easier for the masses to acquire the same things, at half the effort/price.  You cry foul.  I had to do a world first kill naked in the snow with an arrow in your knee.  This guy just hit max level, does LFR, and gets it merely for not standing in the fire?  WTF?

     

    You are clammering for an even playing field in which there isn't any.  Whether you buy it, earn it, steal it... whatever, someone will always get there first.  The fact remains that everyone has access to it.  I don't have X, therefore the game is unfair.  Person Y bought X and now he's OP.  

    Perhaps they just need to phase players based on what they have... you buy an extra 30 slot bag, you can only see players who also purchased the 30 slot bag.  No more advantage... if you went to the extreme and decked yourself out, you'd be in an instance of one.  No one else can see you because no one else has everything.  Now that would be hilarious!

  • easy-reasy-r ny, NYPosts: 38Member
    People have been paying hundreds of dollars for equipment and characters in MMOs and games like D2 since they were first created.  This is one example of the game companies trying to recieve this profit now by making the purchase of such items the only way to obtain them, rather than botting or labor.  I don't really have a problem with it, my problem is that the core game is just not very good, not anywhere near good enough to justify spending this, for me.
  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,276Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by F2Plague
    Great post. I hate f2p games but I decided to give this a try because of the Neverwinter name. I am getting close to end game and am realising more and more that this f2p is so far from free its a joke. I never have a problem pulling out my credit card for a good game. But this isn't even good. I play with my friends so we always have a full party. And every one of these quests aside from dungeons and skirmishes is over in a matter of minutes they were all clearly designed for solo play. Ive only just started playing at open beta, I dont even play much but me and my buddies are almost end game thats how quick these quests go. And im done, not even gonna bother getting to end game to be put at a huge disadvantage against other players who are spending 100's to play a shitty instanced themepark.

      WoW you must have put alot of time into playing a game you hate and have no fun with to be close to the endgame already. SAd you willingly spend sooo much time doing something you hate for no evident reaason (not like you get payed to play it)

        If you got through the 5 party member crypt dungeon (in blackdagger) in a few mins I applaud you. I assume you were doing it speed run and didn't stop to pick up treasure/runes or harvest nodes that would give you the items you claim you'll need in the end game. (Go figure)

  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,276Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DeathWolf2u

    I've been playing this game for a little bit now. I have a level 44 Guardian using a cap ranked 15 Cleric companion. Here is my take on Neverwinter so far up to this point without spending any real cash.

     

    1. The game is fun and I am enjoying myself so far but stuck on a boss I just cannot get past or I would be in the upper 40's level by now.

     

    2. Everything that cost either astral diamonds or ZEN in the cash shops is beyond insane in pricing and I will never spend a cent on these ridiculous prices. I'm also disgusted with obtaining and having all these 'Nightmare Lockboxes' in my inventory that I will never be able to open due to what it cost in real cash to buy ZEN, then to buy a skeleton key to open 1 box. They try to entice you to buy ZEN because of the chance of receiving an 'Inferno Nightmare' mount among other items. If you try to sell these lockboxes no one wants them they are worthless as everyone else that refuses to spend cash is trying to dump these boxes as well and there are alot of people trying to rid themselves of the lock boxes. You obtain these lockboxes as loot dropped from time to time while playing the game.

     

    3. Crafting is unique but obtaining resources to continue crafting is absurd. You won't be leveling any of the crafting professions up anytime soon. The ony one that is feasible in leveling is the Leadership profession.

     

    4. Right now I have mixxed emotions about continuing playing. While I can keep playing entirely for free this game is very centric on paying real cash. I'd rather pay a monthly fee in this game and receive everything which would be wayyyyy much cheaper.

     

    Realistically instead of dropping $40 on just an awesome mount and $20 on many other much needed items I'm going to spend that cash on a new game. Especially in June since there are some much awaited titles releasing that makes more sense than dropping serious cash on a few items in Neverwinter.

     

    Also a correction the free mount rental you get when you hit level 20 is 40% movement speed. The horse you can buy with 5 gold is 50% movement speed. The 5 gold mount is all I plan on using and works just fine.

     My apologies I'll probably sound like a totall fanbois here but actually my points not just about Neverwinter. In the above case the player played for a few weeks, had fun, and even states he'd rather pay a monthly fee. However while he states he had fun and has evidently no problem paying for his fun he wont.

       Is it just because he's that cheap? Is it because of a sense of entitlement. "Yes I had fun I may well still play and have fun but I'l not pay the developers a penny because I'm saving it to buy games later that may well not even be that fun as therss no free trial on them.

     

      To me its alot like tipping your waiter if they do good service and the food is good you tip  (ie if the games fun and you played and may well continue to play you throw the devs a bone so hopefully they can continue to develop the game) This pretains to Neverwinter or any F2P game. It will be funny if the guy goes and buys those games in june and one of them turns out to be crap. He will have supported a developer of a game he didn't like while at the same time not supporting a the developer of a game he states he had fun with. (and people wonder why some good games die and other crappy games flurish)

     

     

  • Pandaman102Pandaman102 Hong KongPosts: 94Member
    Originally posted by Vannor

    It's no secret that paying will get you there quicker.. but some people blow that out of proportion. They make it sound like it's almost impossible or will take months if you don't pay. It's just not true.

    Impossible is certainly a stretch, but why do you say months isn't true?

    Let's assume the Astral Diamonds exchange rate drops to 250 AD per ZEN, like it did Dilithium/ZEN in STO and Questionite/ZEN in CO. With two characters, you have a cap of 48000 AD per day, which is 192 ZEN per day.

    To Mount Training at 110% you need 2,832,000 AD, which is 59 days of grinding using both characters.

    To get a 4000 ZEN epic mount you need another 21 days.

    To get a 3500 ZEN epic pet you need another 19 days.

    You only really need Coalescent Wards for the last two ranks of an enchantment, so 5 wards at $10 means another 26 days for each rune and enchantment. Let's assume you're making one for your pet, one for your armor, and another for your weapon, so 78 days in total.

    That alone comes to 177 days minimum, doesn't that count as "months"?
  • Pandaman102Pandaman102 Hong KongPosts: 94Member
    Originally posted by pmiles

    Excuse me... but it seems what we have here is the classic have versus the have not argument.

    I believe you're mistaken. I made a comment on the first page and Shazzel agreed with it on the second. This isn't about "have vs. have not", it's calling a game out on having an exploitative cash shop.

    And everyone else is jumping to conclusions while defending said cash shop against negativity.

  • VorchVorch Somewhere, FLPosts: 800Member

    Seems like the game is fun if you pay a bit and work if you don't.

    That said, it doesn't take 500 bucks to get the "essential"  "convience" items.

    "As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days— those are now the only two states you’ll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Shazzel

    To create the strongest Enchantment possible, it will cost 160 dollars and 64 shards. Unlike companions, these can be used in PvP.

    Yuck...so much for my hope for good pvp...

    image


    image

  • KareliaKarelia HeraklionPosts: 668Member
    Originally posted by Pandaman102
    Originally posted by Vannor

    It's no secret that paying will get you there quicker.. but some people blow that out of proportion. They make it sound like it's almost impossible or will take months if you don't pay. It's just not true.

    Impossible is certainly a stretch, but why do you say months isn't true?

    Let's assume the Astral Diamonds exchange rate drops to 250 AD per ZEN, like it did Dilithium/ZEN in STO and Questionite/ZEN in CO. With two characters, you have a cap of 48000 AD per day, which is 192 ZEN per day.

    To Mount Training at 110% you need 2,832,000 AD, which is 59 days of grinding using both characters.

    To get a 4000 ZEN epic mount you need another 21 days.

    To get a 3500 ZEN epic pet you need another 19 days.

    You only really need Coalescent Wards for the last two ranks of an enchantment, so 5 wards at $10 means another 26 days for each rune and enchantment. Let's assume you're making one for your pet, one for your armor, and another for your weapon, so 78 days in total.

    That alone comes to 177 days minimum, doesn't that count as "months"?

     

    well said lad

  • 123443211234123443211234 seattle, WAPosts: 244Member
    Anyone that knows anything about Perfect World Entertaninment knows that their games are always P2W.
  • XiaokiXiaoki White Pigeon, MIPosts: 2,602Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Pandaman102
    Originally posted by Vannor It's no secret that paying will get you there quicker.. but some people blow that out of proportion. They make it sound like it's almost impossible or will take months if you don't pay. It's just not true.
    Impossible is certainly a stretch, but why do you say months isn't true?

    Let's assume the Astral Diamonds exchange rate drops to 250 AD per ZEN, like it did Dilithium/ZEN in STO and Questionite/ZEN in CO. With two characters, you have a cap of 48000 AD per day, which is 192 ZEN per day.

    To Mount Training at 110% you need 2,832,000 AD, which is 59 days of grinding using both characters.

    To get a 4000 ZEN epic mount you need another 21 days.

    To get a 3500 ZEN epic pet you need another 19 days.

    You only really need Coalescent Wards for the last two ranks of an enchantment, so 5 wards at $10 means another 26 days for each rune and enchantment. Let's assume you're making one for your pet, one for your armor, and another for your weapon, so 78 days in total.That alone comes to 177 days minimum, doesn't that count as "months"?



    He's using MATH to prove things!!!


    He's a witch, burn him at the stake!!!

  • DoozerglueDoozerglue Glendale, AZPosts: 38Member

    Pay $60 to $70 U.S. dollars up front for a Sub based model then calculate your 17 U.S. dollars a month sub fee (I live in AZ and am charged tax on my subs that are based in CA).  After taxes you come in right around $275 dollars for a year of game play.  So what's the difference?  Let's not forget that some of these sub based games also have cash shops of their own on top of the subscription.  You can buy mounts in WoW too.

    I play Neverwinter. I'm a level 22 Control Wizard and am in a guild with people I've never met before.  We all seem to be having a good time playing and creating our own content for ZERO cash outlay.  Not something I could do at launch with EQ, Guild Wars 2, AoC, WoW, Aion or SWTOR, as I've played each of these games at launch.  If you play Neverwinter with someone, the speed at which you gain astral diamonds is much faster than going it alone.  If you don't invoke once an hour at rest points (campfires) that's your fault. So... not sure why people continue to cry about the cash shop in this game.   Eventually, I will spend money to support development, but it will be for things that I wan't.    

    There is a pros and cons list you can make about any game.  Do I think Cryptic / PW got this one completely right.... nope.  Do I think the cash shop is a reason not to play this game.... nope. OP,  If you want to play a game completely for free, Adult Swim has Robot Unicorns and Hemp Tycoon for free right now (adultswimdotcom), though, they might be a bit too grindy for ya.  There aint no free lunch......

     

  • VannorVannor YorkshirePosts: 2,969Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Pandaman102
    Originally posted by Vannor

    It's no secret that paying will get you there quicker.. but some people blow that out of proportion. They make it sound like it's almost impossible or will take months if you don't pay. It's just not true.

    Impossible is certainly a stretch, but why do you say months isn't true?

    Let's assume the Astral Diamonds exchange rate drops to 250 AD per ZEN, like it did Dilithium/ZEN in STO and Questionite/ZEN in CO. With two characters, you have a cap of 48000 AD per day, which is 192 ZEN per day.

    To Mount Training at 110% you need 2,832,000 AD, which is 59 days of grinding using both characters.

    To get a 4000 ZEN epic mount you need another 21 days.

    To get a 3500 ZEN epic pet you need another 19 days.

    You only really need Coalescent Wards for the last two ranks of an enchantment, so 5 wards at $10 means another 26 days for each rune and enchantment. Let's assume you're making one for your pet, one for your armor, and another for your weapon, so 78 days in total.

    That alone comes to 177 days minimum, doesn't that count as "months"?

    The wards are on the AH for between 100k-200k AD. That's going to get lower as well once the farmers get their new stock in every 7 days. And like I've said earlier, everyone can get them from invocation.

    You earn lots of AD from trading as well.

    I mean, I've been playing for 7 days now and I have well over 400k AD. The first 3 days I was trying out classes to level 10 so wasn't earning AD. So yeh, I've put in lots of hours in the last 4 days but 400k is much much faster than what you are calculating based on the 24k a day limit. I havn't been trying to get it either and that's with playing one character (I havn't been getting 24k a day from my other character). It's just come from the usual stuff. I do my dailies, leadership crafting, invocate and I trade items on the AH.

    Refining AD isn't the only wany to get it. This 24k limit a day arguement doesn't make sense because you can and always will get more than that.

  • sketocafesketocafe StoupaPosts: 801Member Uncommon

    Lemme check if Tera and Path of Exile still exist.... Yep. Hey, it turns out  you still can do FtoP without involving gear or or other useful things (enchants). Or, you can add these things to your item shop and introduce a grind to allow non-paying players to get them. I know which of these two options I prefer.

  • PanzerbasePanzerbase Chicago, ILPosts: 423Member

    Let me explain it another way, you're allowed to play for free and experience all the content the game has to offer. If the pace or the equipment is not to your liking well you could fork over a few bucks and let the dev's eat. 

    The game represents work, and a great deal of it, even the most mediocre game requires countless hours of design, programming, and management. So get off your slow high horse and fork over a few bucks and relax. In the world of business you don't get to decide what is good and what is bad unless you're the owner, which you are not. You either accept it or you do not. Now if you choose not to accept it that's fine but your ceaseless rattling about fairness over a few measly percentage points is ridiculous. 

    I know this, when I log into that game I'm goign to have a blast. So keep typing about the unfair world for the rest of your life, before you know it, it will have passed you on by. 

     

  • birdycephonbirdycephon Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 1,314Member
    I love it how OP tries to pretend to be unbiased. But the more you read, the more slanted the post gets. I didnt catch it at first until he started highlighting. Seriously, there is nothing in the cash shop aside from fluff that you cant get by playing the game. Of course its easier to pay money, but thats what is called a convenience fee. From what I have seen, the game is anything but p2win.
  • TalonsinTalonsin Posts: 1,468Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vannor
    Originally posted by Pandaman102
    Originally posted by Vannor

    It's no secret that paying will get you there quicker.. but some people blow that out of proportion. They make it sound like it's almost impossible or will take months if you don't pay. It's just not true.

    Impossible is certainly a stretch, but why do you say months isn't true?

    Let's assume the Astral Diamonds exchange rate drops to 250 AD per ZEN, like it did Dilithium/ZEN in STO and Questionite/ZEN in CO. With two characters, you have a cap of 48000 AD per day, which is 192 ZEN per day.

    To Mount Training at 110% you need 2,832,000 AD, which is 59 days of grinding using both characters.

    To get a 4000 ZEN epic mount you need another 21 days.

    To get a 3500 ZEN epic pet you need another 19 days.

    You only really need Coalescent Wards for the last two ranks of an enchantment, so 5 wards at $10 means another 26 days for each rune and enchantment. Let's assume you're making one for your pet, one for your armor, and another for your weapon, so 78 days in total.

    That alone comes to 177 days minimum, doesn't that count as "months"?

    The wards are on the AH for between 100k-200k AD. That's going to get lower as well once the farmers get their new stock in every 7 days. And like I've said earlier, everyone can get them from invocation.

    You earn lots of AD from trading as well.

    I mean, I've been playing for 7 days now and I have well over 400k AD. The first 3 days I was trying out classes to level 10 so wasn't earning AD. So yeh, I've put in lots of hours in the last 4 days but 400k is much much faster than what you are calculating based on the 24k a day limit. I havn't been trying to get it either and that's with playing one character (I havn't been getting 24k a day from my other character). It's just come from the usual stuff. I do my dailies, leadership crafting, invocate and I trade items on the AH.

    Refining AD isn't the only wany to get it. This 24k limit a day arguement doesn't make sense because you can and always will get more than that.

     

    I am very confused.  First, when someone posted about the guy who hit level 60 in a day from buying crafting materials you said

     

    Originally posted by Vannor

    Wow.. super P2W.

    Still don't think it's P2W? Don't kid yourself.

     

    But then you spend the next week here on the forums defending the cash shop and saying it is purely for convenience and anyone can have everything in the game in less than two months.

     

    Moving past your bi-polar issues, can anyone earn all the stuff in the game?  YES.  Can a person earn the items needed to be competitive for PVP or high level content in 60 days or less without making NW a second job and running invoc on multiple chars, working the AH for two hours a day and maxing out there AD conversions?  Probably not. 

     

    Is the cash shop P2W?  It really depends on your definition of P2W.  I do agree a person who is motivated can spend 4 to 6 hours a day working the system and earn all the things they want in less than 6 months and not pay a dime to Cryptic.  That is really not a bad deal to get everything for free and reward Cryptic with nothing for all their work on the game.  You could also sell that account and make a good bit of cash once you had all those items. 

     

  • birdycephonbirdycephon Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 1,314Member
    You know whats funny? The time you could have spent typing up that ridiculous post, you could have mowed a lawn, and gotten the cash you need for that extra bag space, or those rare crafting mats.
  • VannorVannor YorkshirePosts: 2,969Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Talonsin
    Originally posted by Vannor
    /snip

    I am very confused.  First, when someone posted about the guy who hit level 60 in a day from buying crafting materials you said

    Originally posted by Vannor

    Wow.. super P2W.

    Still don't think it's P2W? Don't kid yourself.

    But then you spend the next week here on the forums defending the cash shop and saying it is purely for convenience and anyone can have everything in the game in less than two months.

    Moving past your bi-polar issues, can anyone earn all the stuff in the game?  YES.  Can a person earn the items needed to be competitive for PVP or high level content in 60 days or less without making NW a second job and running invoc on multiple chars, working the AH for two hours a day and maxing out there AD conversions?  Probably not. 

    Is the cash shop P2W?  It really depends on your definition of P2W.  I do agree a person who is motivated can spend 4 to 6 hours a day working the system and earn all the things they want in less than 6 months and not pay a dime to Cryptic.  That is really not a bad deal to get everything for free and reward Cryptic with nothing for all their work on the game.  You could also sell that account and make a good bit of cash once you had all those items. 

    After playing I realised it isn't so bad and changed my mind. At first I was like the usual P2W haters. After fighting against the people that have spent money though and grouping with them, I now know that all they've done is lost a lot of money and have none of the game left to play... and are certainly not more powerful than my characters.

  • DeaconXDeaconX Toronto, ONPosts: 3,067Member

    When I read

     

    "a standard 50% mount goes for 5-8 dollars, a rare 80% mount goes for 20-30 dollars, and an epic 110% mount goes for 30-40 dollars."

    I couldn't help but think

    "Boy, that escalated quickly!"

    image

    Why do I write, create, fantasize, dream and daydream about other worlds? Because I hate what humanity does with this one.

    BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.

  • apb2011apb2011 Quebec city, QCPosts: 153Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rojo6934
    Originally posted by bubaluba
    So??  Nothing is for free in this world, you know ....people must eat

    if a cash shop sells 100 items where 5 of them are pay to win and are needed in order to have better gear. The company will not starve if they remove the 5 pay to win items and sell the other 95 items over and over and over.

     

    This kind of comment are the most idiotic in history. No offense to you, but to every comment like this one that come out.

    How do you know the game company won't starve. I don't think you can even imagine the budget needed to run and keep a game like this running. I agree with bub and every game company that either charges a subscription or cash shop items. Nothing is free, people need to eat, people have kids and responsibilities that require money. I don't mind paying for anything thing MMO related. I have spent over 8000$ on MMOs in the last 10 years. There are plenty of people like me that don't mind paying. If you are a broke teenager/kid and you want to play MMOs in this day and age, GET A JOB!

  • kevjardskevjards carlislePosts: 1,463Member
    have to say i,m kind of disappointed with the fact you cant sub to the game..i would prefer that.f2p is ok but i prefer sub..they should have included this option in the game..only thing they are going to do is drive people away with the costs in the zen shop..they are ridiculously high atm..but no doubt in time when people start moving away from the game they will lower the prices.
  • AkulasAkulas GoldcoastPosts: 1,615Member Uncommon
    I'm level $60, paid nothing for it. All my runestones and enchantments been bought off the AH with AD which can be farmed daily by doing the daily dungeon, pvp and skirmishes. The max enchants I got were around 500AD which is probly under priced.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

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