Well, IMO Darkfall is worthy of the sub model. I don't understand people who don't like the sub model. It is the best payment model for the gamer. You can play countless hours for only $15/month and your gameplay is not restricted by cash shop frivalties.
citing forum polls as evidence of anything is clutching at straws
Oh I rarely post these days - just here and there while at work browsing the internet. The poll gives a general idea though and let's say 34% is high and it is more like 25-30% actually - that is a HUGE # considering a niche game without a huge following based on PvP needs all the players it can get -- especially after Steam has not brought any real surge of players as people prayed and hoped for.
Also, take into consideration as I said how many people got a ton of alts going that will not be resubbed which overinflates the already "real" numbers in clans. Like I said it is like 24 with ym clanmates with alts and so 2 months from now they will all still show in a clan BUT in reality are not being played at all.
Rarely post? Your post history differs from what you say. I'm honestly not sure how you got that many stars under your name looking at your post history.
1. Forums are usually where people go to post negativity
2. Forums are not used by the majority of players
3. 2/3 is a good amount for the first month
I'm not playing DF:UW, just droppin knowledge.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
That's not a negative, that's pretty normal. It's pretty good for a niche game. The problem I forsee is getting new players. Which is the problem for almost all niche games. That and griefers, which is a problem in any pvp game. They're too hard headed to realize they're only hurting themselves, since that player will quit eventually and you won't have any new players, which is hard enough for a niche game to get in the first place.
Sadly DF:UW is probally one of the best MMORPGs out there at the moment....
But tis still a bad game and im not going to sub myself.. I played DF from start to finish and would still be playing it now if they had not shut it down for this garbage..
No matter tho there are quite a few good looking sandbox games coming out over the next few years one of them has to get it right.
Originally posted by Ocenica I know there are people, such as myself who don't buy a game at release to avoid crowds, bugs, and connection issues. Good old WoW didn't start out with 20,000,000 subs and work its way down. It started at 300,000 and worked it way up.
Wow came in when there were 20 million new DSL MMO gamers joining in ,so that is a way different scenario.If all those gamers were already playing before Wow came out,Wow may have never survived period.There were only a handful or mmo games at that time,only a few games with 250k,i think EQ the highest subscribed might have peaked abit higher but not when Wow came out as some i assume jumped into EQ2 like i did.
I do agree that maintaining 2/3 is a massive upside,most games are dropping down around 25% or less.
I seriuously beleive in the ,follow the hype train theory.it seems once a said number of players start leaving every new game,a ton more follow to the next hyped game.
It says one thing,developers are making very generic,boring content and gamers are getting bored fast.
Like myself,i think the only thing keeping players around is if they find a good guild and friends to hang with,otherwise they quit soon enough.
If i was Tasos i think i would be happy with 50% because to be honest ,i don't think he considered new players at all in the design.What i mean is the game is not designed to grow because new players are so grossly undermined.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
11 page thread with well over 500 unique votes.... Not a good sign for AV - as a lot of the people state they are not going to keep chasing the carrot like they did in DF1. This means AV really needs to step up their addition of actual content or else the game will end up like the first quickly....
Also, do not be fooled this first month saying how good the population is - I got a clanmate on 2 PC's running 10 alts whicha re accounts from clanmates who already paid for the game but did not play at launch. He of course is not resubbing them as he is only using the free month to stock up on resources.
Why are you so fixated on Darkfall again?
Do you have this much trouble moving on with other things in your personal life? Honestly you seem like a pretty good canditate to have multiple restraining orders against with how you seem to be utterly incapable of letting go of something
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
We live in the world of free to play games now. It's really that simple. I'm interested in playing Darkfall, i've played a bit before, did the free trial and all that but i don't want to pay a monthly sub for it. I often want to return to World of Warcraft for some casual play time but i don't want to play it enough to "justify" the subscription fee.
There are just far too many free to play games now that there's simply no need to pay a subscription fee.
That being said some games are definitely worth it. WoW is worth it, it's a quality game that is always improved upon. Rift is another high quality game. While they are worth paying for i will not play them enough to pay that monthly sub but that doesn't stop them from being "worth it," just to be clear.
Jeremiah 8:21 I weep for the hurt of my people; I stand amazed, silent, dumb with grief. Join me on TwitchFacebook Twitter
11 page thread with well over 500 unique votes.... Not a good sign for AV - as a lot of the people state they are not going to keep chasing the carrot like they did in DF1. This means AV really needs to step up their addition of actual content or else the game will end up like the first quickly....
Also, do not be fooled this first month saying how good the population is - I got a clanmate on 2 PC's running 10 alts whicha re accounts from clanmates who already paid for the game but did not play at launch. He of course is not resubbing them as he is only using the free month to stock up on resources.
This is what happens when people play MMO's chasing content instead of the community.
Self-selecting polls aren't useful for determining trends with any degree of accuracy. All that shows is 1/3 of the Darkfall players who visit the forums and went to that specific thread are claiming they will not resub.
We live in the world of free to play games now. It's really that simple. I'm interested in playing Darkfall, i've played a bit before, did the free trial and all that but i don't want to pay a monthly sub for it. I often want to return to World of Warcraft for some casual play time but i don't want to play it enough to "justify" the subscription fee.
There are just far too many free to play games now that there's simply no need to pay a subscription fee.
That being said some games are definitely worth it. WoW is worth it, it's a quality game that is always improved upon. Rift is another high quality game. While they are worth paying for i will not play them enough to pay that monthly sub but that doesn't stop them from being "worth it," just to be clear.
Yes but those free to play mmo's suck. Overly instanced, hand holding, restricting your game play, sparkly crap. Even a good B2P game like GW2 gets boring after awhile.
We live in the world of free to play games now. It's really that simple. I'm interested in playing Darkfall, i've played a bit before, did the free trial and all that but i don't want to pay a monthly sub for it. I often want to return to World of Warcraft for some casual play time but i don't want to play it enough to "justify" the subscription fee.
There are just far too many free to play games now that there's simply no need to pay a subscription fee.
That being said some games are definitely worth it. WoW is worth it, it's a quality game that is always improved upon. Rift is another high quality game. While they are worth paying for i will not play them enough to pay that monthly sub but that doesn't stop them from being "worth it," just to be clear.
Yes but those free to play mmo's suck. Overly instanced, hand holding, restricting your game play, sparkly crap. Even a good B2P game like GW2 gets boring after awhile.
All games get boring after a while if they didn't we'd all still be playing UO, EQ, WoW or whatever game we started out with.
Another unfinshed release that exchanges content for an open world. Do these people not understand that a giant empty world is no world at all? These devs need to play Skyrim.
We live in the world of free to play games now. It's really that simple. I'm interested in playing Darkfall, i've played a bit before, did the free trial and all that but i don't want to pay a monthly sub for it. I often want to return to World of Warcraft for some casual play time but i don't want to play it enough to "justify" the subscription fee.
There are just far too many free to play games now that there's simply no need to pay a subscription fee.
That being said some games are definitely worth it. WoW is worth it, it's a quality game that is always improved upon. Rift is another high quality game. While they are worth paying for i will not play them enough to pay that monthly sub but that doesn't stop them from being "worth it," just to be clear.
Yes but those free to play mmo's suck. Overly instanced, hand holding, restricting your game play, sparkly crap. Even a good B2P game like GW2 gets boring after awhile.
What part of not paying your subscription isn't restrictive?
I don't want to rent my game time and access anymore. There isn't any game, not even WoW, that is worth that to me anymore. Games get boring after a while regardless of payment model. Rift, pretty much the same exact stuff as always... boring.
This game is the same way. People with tons of time currency will have a huge advantage over those who don't. Larger guilds will steamroll the smaller. Crafting and gear will end up being worked into an efficiency system that will be repetitive. It doesn't matter that the pvp battle appears to be different because it's not really. So you get in a conflict in the woods instead of on the plateau. It's still the same because you'll do the same sorts of things.
Why would I want to commit my bank account to an ongoing recurring fee for that?
Guess it all comes down to attitude. I'm a casual player who enjoys the thrill and the rush that this game offers. If I'm solo, I know right away I'm at a disadvantage because of my low prowess and will easily get killed. That doesn't stop me. I look at it as a challenge to stay alive. Stay unseen. It's also fun to play with the guild as we work toward common goals. For me, the bitter taste of defeat makes the sweet taste of success that much sweeter and worthy of a sub.
Originally posted by fantasyfreak112 Another unfinshed release that exchanges content for an open world. Do these people not understand that a giant empty world is no world at all? These devs need to play Skyrim.
I am with ya man - potential was there but they just keep missing the mark.....
2/3 retention sounds decent for a game like Darkfall
The key is acquisition rate being higher than the rate of those leaving.
WoW, EQ, EvE...these games enjoyed growth over 5+ years because they managed to attract more people than left. If DF is actually good it should do this too, because unlike most recent games it didnt have a huge spike at launch. the question is, is it good? Im not the target audience and wouldnt ever consider playing it, but its the same with EvE. If the game is good it will grow, if not it will slowly shrink.
2/3 retention sounds decent for a game like Darkfall
The key is acquisition rate being higher than the rate of those leaving.
WoW, EQ, EvE...these games enjoyed growth over 5+ years because they managed to attract more people than left. If DF is actually good it should do this too, because unlike most recent games it didnt have a huge spike at launch. the question is, is it good? Im not the target audience and wouldnt ever consider playing it, but its the same with EvE. If the game is good it will grow, if not it will slowly shrink.
That is why people should be concerned and for a few reasons:
1) Retention rate was MUCH higher for the first game for the first few months as people were willing to wait a few months because the game finally had launched - this time a lot of people have said they are not letting AV string them along again.
2) The reason this is NOT a good retention rate for DF is that it is 100% a niche game and does not have hundreds of new players buying it every day keeping an influx of new players coming -- just go read the Steam forums and why they are not even thinking about buying it
Wow and other MMO's can easily survive a retention rate like this because they have a constant influx of new players and NOT being a niche game have quite a big following; thus can survive.
3) Steam release has not brought a lot of new players and there are not many new players that you see every day. Clanmates still see basically the same people in the starter zones every day - unlike other MMO's with solid new people joining and you constantly see new people in the starter areas
4) Tons of alt accounts that ARE clanned are about to not be re-subbed so do not go by #'s in clans at all
*** Disagree all you want but #1 and #2 are what is the bigger issue here - a niche game needs to retain more than 2/3 of their base because Darkfall will not have 100 new people a day buying this game and breathing life into it.... Also, those new guys who do try it are getting slammed right outside the safe zone by people with 30,40, 60k prowess because there is no incentive for these guys to go live out of their city when 100% everything can be done at the safe zones.
Originally posted by Ocenica I know there are people, such as myself who don't buy a game at release to avoid crowds, bugs, and connection issues. Good old WoW didn't start out with 20,000,000 subs and work its way down. It started at 300,000 and worked it way up.
WoW is the only subscription MMORPG to do this so far. Will probably be the only one.
There were couple games that were either increasing sub count, stabilizing them or / and not crashing sub numbers,
Examples - EQ1 (for 5 years), Lotro (2,5 years), FF XI (still going strong) , Ultima Online (5 years, peaked 3 years after rekease)
Games getting high sub counts right after release and crashing at super fast as "industry standard scenario" - is relatively new thing.
I am not sure DF: UW can achieve that though, I personally doubt it but we'll see.,
11 page thread with well over 500 unique votes.... Not a good sign for AV - as a lot of the people state they are not going to keep chasing the carrot like they did in DF1. This means AV really needs to step up their addition of actual content or else the game will end up like the first quickly....
Also, do not be fooled this first month saying how good the population is - I got a clanmate on 2 PC's running 10 alts whicha re accounts from clanmates who already paid for the game but did not play at launch. He of course is not resubbing them as he is only using the free month to stock up on resources.
Pre wow, they typical retention rate was only 30% after 3 months or less. /just a history lesson.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I know next to nothing about Darkfall except it's not my kind of game. However, from what I do know it seems it's likely to prove once again that the monthly subscription model is all but dead. I can't think of a single game that's made a long term success that way for about six years.
Originally posted by Ocenica I know there are people, such as myself who don't buy a game at release to avoid crowds, bugs, and connection issues. Good old WoW didn't start out with 20,000,000 subs and work its way down. It started at 300,000 and worked it way up.
WoW is the only subscription MMORPG to do this so far. Will probably be the only one.
Not to mention the way overpriced game and sub on top of that
40 bucks is not overpriced for one of the best MMOs on the market. GW2 was 60 bucks for christ sake.
Yup and no monthly fee on top of that to enjoy it for GW2.... So after 3 months in Darkfall you would be spending $70 for a game nowhere close to GW2 or others in terms of the overall MMO package.
Overall MMO package? Haha, what? GW2's package... a simplistic, easy PvE game with some cool overworld battles and thousands of filler quests, poorly implemented half assed RvR, and little to no crafting or class customization.
vs, a game with sandbox tools and infinite content, real time combat, NO instances, and massive battles without lag?
Originally posted by strangiato2112 2/3 retention sounds decent for a game like DarkfallThe key is acquisition rate being higher than the rate of those leaving.WoW, EQ, EvE...these games enjoyed growth over 5+ years because they managed to attract more people than left. If DF is actually good it should do this too, because unlike most recent games it didnt have a huge spike at launch. the question is, is it good? Im not the target audience and wouldnt ever consider playing it, but its the same with EvE. If the game is good it will grow, if not it will slowly shrink.
That is why people should be concerned and for a few reasons:1) Retention rate was MUCH higher for the first game for the first few months as people were willing to wait a few months because the game finally had launched - this time a lot of people have said they are not letting AV string them along again.2) The reason this is NOT a good retention rate for DF is that it is 100% a niche game and does not have hundreds of new players buying it every day keeping an influx of new players coming -- just go read the Steam forums and why they are not even thinking about buying itWow and other MMO's can easily survive a retention rate like this because they have a constant influx of new players and NOT being a niche game have quite a big following; thus can survive.3) Steam release has not brought a lot of new players and there are not many new players that you see every day. Clanmates still see basically the same people in the starter zones every day - unlike other MMO's with solid new people joining and you constantly see new people in the starter areas4) Tons of alt accounts that ARE clanned are about to not be re-subbed so do not go by #'s in clans at all*** Disagree all you want but #1 and #2 are what is the bigger issue here - a niche game needs to retain more than 2/3 of their base because Darkfall will not have 100 new people a day buying this game and breathing life into it.... Also, those new guys who do try it are getting slammed right outside the safe zone by people with 30,40, 60k prowess because there is no incentive for these guys to go live out of their city when 100% everything can be done at the safe zones.
I know that all you are trying to do is bad mouth the game and arguing with you is pointless, but what you are saying makes absolutely no sense even if its meant to be blind hate.
DFUW is a new mmorpg and as in every other case of a new release there are going to be customers who will not like what they bought and therefor wont continue their subscription. Darkfall being niche is actually supposed make the number of those who quit the first month even higher, simply because this game is not for everyone and its very easy for someone to realize that. Everyone can play a game like WoW even if its only for a few months, not everyone can play Darkfall.
11 page thread with well over 500 unique votes.... Not a good sign for AV - as a lot of the people state they are not going to keep chasing the carrot like they did in DF1. This means AV really needs to step up their addition of actual content or else the game will end up like the first quickly....
Also, do not be fooled this first month saying how good the population is - I got a clanmate on 2 PC's running 10 alts whicha re accounts from clanmates who already paid for the game but did not play at launch. He of course is not resubbing them as he is only using the free month to stock up on resources.
Pre wow, they typical retention rate was only 30% after 3 months or less. /just a history lesson.
Oh I am up on history and as I clearly stated out WoW was NOT a niche game and thus could still survive from whatever their retention rate was; due to constant influx of new people. Which you do not see in DF. - DF history lesson shows that. And if a game cannot constantly draw new people then it is not a good sign.
Comments
Well, IMO Darkfall is worthy of the sub model. I don't understand people who don't like the sub model. It is the best payment model for the gamer. You can play countless hours for only $15/month and your gameplay is not restricted by cash shop frivalties.
Rarely post? Your post history differs from what you say. I'm honestly not sure how you got that many stars under your name looking at your post history.
Deerhunter just hates Darkfall for whatever reason.
Having around a 70% retention rate the 2nd month after an MMO is release is right on target. Do some research before posting,
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CFwQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fciteseerx.ist.psu.edu%2Fviewdoc%2Fdownload%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.163.6347%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf&ei=zx6JUb7HCcPl0QHjpoGoBA&usg=AFQjCNG-6cJZD_5_bN0iEZrdsJ3KmKYh6A&sig2=3tuCNUQgr5ycBqFfctK-FA&bvm=bv.45960087,d.dmQ&cad=rja
(Uzik ibnYaraq in game. Always willing to help.)
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1. Forums are usually where people go to post negativity
2. Forums are not used by the majority of players
3. 2/3 is a good amount for the first month
I'm not playing DF:UW, just droppin knowledge.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
Sadly DF:UW is probally one of the best MMORPGs out there at the moment....
But tis still a bad game and im not going to sub myself.. I played DF from start to finish and would still be playing it now if they had not shut it down for this garbage..
No matter tho there are quite a few good looking sandbox games coming out over the next few years one of them has to get it right.
Wow came in when there were 20 million new DSL MMO gamers joining in ,so that is a way different scenario.If all those gamers were already playing before Wow came out,Wow may have never survived period.There were only a handful or mmo games at that time,only a few games with 250k,i think EQ the highest subscribed might have peaked abit higher but not when Wow came out as some i assume jumped into EQ2 like i did.
I do agree that maintaining 2/3 is a massive upside,most games are dropping down around 25% or less.
I seriuously beleive in the ,follow the hype train theory.it seems once a said number of players start leaving every new game,a ton more follow to the next hyped game.
It says one thing,developers are making very generic,boring content and gamers are getting bored fast.
Like myself,i think the only thing keeping players around is if they find a good guild and friends to hang with,otherwise they quit soon enough.
If i was Tasos i think i would be happy with 50% because to be honest ,i don't think he considered new players at all in the design.What i mean is the game is not designed to grow because new players are so grossly undermined.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Why are you so fixated on Darkfall again?
Do you have this much trouble moving on with other things in your personal life? Honestly you seem like a pretty good canditate to have multiple restraining orders against with how you seem to be utterly incapable of letting go of something
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
We live in the world of free to play games now. It's really that simple. I'm interested in playing Darkfall, i've played a bit before, did the free trial and all that but i don't want to pay a monthly sub for it. I often want to return to World of Warcraft for some casual play time but i don't want to play it enough to "justify" the subscription fee.
There are just far too many free to play games now that there's simply no need to pay a subscription fee.
That being said some games are definitely worth it. WoW is worth it, it's a quality game that is always improved upon. Rift is another high quality game. While they are worth paying for i will not play them enough to pay that monthly sub but that doesn't stop them from being "worth it," just to be clear.
Jeremiah 8:21 I weep for the hurt of my people; I stand amazed, silent, dumb with grief.
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This is what happens when people play MMO's chasing content instead of the community.
Yes but those free to play mmo's suck. Overly instanced, hand holding, restricting your game play, sparkly crap. Even a good B2P game like GW2 gets boring after awhile.
All games get boring after a while if they didn't we'd all still be playing UO, EQ, WoW or whatever game we started out with.
I'm pretty sure the servers are at maximum capacity right now.
I think there's 7k clanned peopled on NA1. There's TONS of people unclanned.
If 1/3 of the forum users drop, there will still be plenty of people playing.
Guess it all comes down to attitude. I'm a casual player who enjoys the thrill and the rush that this game offers. If I'm solo, I know right away I'm at a disadvantage because of my low prowess and will easily get killed. That doesn't stop me. I look at it as a challenge to stay alive. Stay unseen. It's also fun to play with the guild as we work toward common goals. For me, the bitter taste of defeat makes the sweet taste of success that much sweeter and worthy of a sub.
I am with ya man - potential was there but they just keep missing the mark.....
2/3 retention sounds decent for a game like Darkfall
The key is acquisition rate being higher than the rate of those leaving.
WoW, EQ, EvE...these games enjoyed growth over 5+ years because they managed to attract more people than left. If DF is actually good it should do this too, because unlike most recent games it didnt have a huge spike at launch. the question is, is it good? Im not the target audience and wouldnt ever consider playing it, but its the same with EvE. If the game is good it will grow, if not it will slowly shrink.
That is why people should be concerned and for a few reasons:
1) Retention rate was MUCH higher for the first game for the first few months as people were willing to wait a few months because the game finally had launched - this time a lot of people have said they are not letting AV string them along again.
2) The reason this is NOT a good retention rate for DF is that it is 100% a niche game and does not have hundreds of new players buying it every day keeping an influx of new players coming -- just go read the Steam forums and why they are not even thinking about buying it
Wow and other MMO's can easily survive a retention rate like this because they have a constant influx of new players and NOT being a niche game have quite a big following; thus can survive.
3) Steam release has not brought a lot of new players and there are not many new players that you see every day. Clanmates still see basically the same people in the starter zones every day - unlike other MMO's with solid new people joining and you constantly see new people in the starter areas
4) Tons of alt accounts that ARE clanned are about to not be re-subbed so do not go by #'s in clans at all
*** Disagree all you want but #1 and #2 are what is the bigger issue here - a niche game needs to retain more than 2/3 of their base because Darkfall will not have 100 new people a day buying this game and breathing life into it.... Also, those new guys who do try it are getting slammed right outside the safe zone by people with 30,40, 60k prowess because there is no incentive for these guys to go live out of their city when 100% everything can be done at the safe zones.
There were couple games that were either increasing sub count, stabilizing them or / and not crashing sub numbers,
Examples - EQ1 (for 5 years), Lotro (2,5 years), FF XI (still going strong) , Ultima Online (5 years, peaked 3 years after rekease)
Games getting high sub counts right after release and crashing at super fast as "industry standard scenario" - is relatively new thing.
I am not sure DF: UW can achieve that though, I personally doubt it but we'll see.,
Pre wow, they typical retention rate was only 30% after 3 months or less. /just a history lesson.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I know next to nothing about Darkfall except it's not my kind of game. However, from what I do know it seems it's likely to prove once again that the monthly subscription model is all but dead. I can't think of a single game that's made a long term success that way for about six years.
Overall MMO package? Haha, what? GW2's package... a simplistic, easy PvE game with some cool overworld battles and thousands of filler quests, poorly implemented half assed RvR, and little to no crafting or class customization.
vs, a game with sandbox tools and infinite content, real time combat, NO instances, and massive battles without lag?
I know that all you are trying to do is bad mouth the game and arguing with you is pointless, but what you are saying makes absolutely no sense even if its meant to be blind hate.
DFUW is a new mmorpg and as in every other case of a new release there are going to be customers who will not like what they bought and therefor wont continue their subscription. Darkfall being niche is actually supposed make the number of those who quit the first month even higher, simply because this game is not for everyone and its very easy for someone to realize that.
Everyone can play a game like WoW even if its only for a few months, not everyone can play Darkfall.
Oh I am up on history and as I clearly stated out WoW was NOT a niche game and thus could still survive from whatever their retention rate was; due to constant influx of new people. Which you do not see in DF. - DF history lesson shows that. And if a game cannot constantly draw new people then it is not a good sign.