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Why I "Think" New MMORPG's are mostly garbage.

trash656trash656 Here, SKPosts: 357Member Uncommon

4. The MMO Identity Crisis.

MMORPGs have recently attempted to blur the lines between genres (MMOFPS, MMORTS, etc...). This might seem harmless, but in fact it is destroying the standards of the original genre. Once a bottom of the barrel MMORPG is released with a first person shooter combat system, other legitimate games look at that as an improvement in the genre, and deemphasize things that were originally more important, such as design, originality, vision, cohesion, or fun.

Developers stopped looking at MMORPGs as a genre, but instead just being multiplayer elements themselves to be added to other types of games. Terrible... If that isn't bad enough, half-assed self proclaimed media sources like MMORPG.com praise these devolutions as ground breaking.

3. MMORPGs should be social first.

Don't misunderstand. I'm not saying that community is more important in MMORPGs, I'm just saying that the entire point of an MMORPG is to have the randomness that comes with real people being in control. Any way that limitations on interaction are implemented spits in the face of what a MMORPG is supposed to be. The most fun part of a MMORPG is the possibility that at any time a nude person could run by and insult you in fun and creative ways. Like for instance when i played WoW 6 years ago I was running down the road in Goldshire with my cute little female gnome Rogue, meanwhile a Human Paladin comes rolling up Behind me and Yells out "GET OUT OF MY WAY PECK!!.. SIR GALLANT IS COMMING THROUGH!"  me and my friends all laughed so hard, because it was from that movie called Willow which we all loved watching growing up in the late 80's and the fact his name was Sirgallant was even more amusing.

2. Too many arbitrary restrictions.

Restrictions in an MMORPG are all intentional. Even Gandalf used a sword when the situation deemed it necessary, but for some reason your almighty hero in MMORPG Land can't pick up a broom if it isn't class appropriate. If I want to exert my creativity, why the hell shouldn't I be able to make a shitty sorceror with plate mail and a two handed Axe of Jesus +2?

The main cop-out answer is balance. Balance is an abstract concept derived from the idea that people shouldn't ever have to use creativity to solve problems. I pose this theoretical encounter:

An archer is raining down arrows on you, and you'd certainly die if you stay out in the open. What do you do?

A. Use natural cover and positioning to close ground on the archer and fight him at close range.
B. Accept that you're not situationally prepared for the archer and retreat to fight again another day.
C. Run directly at him , die, then write an e-mail to support about how your class simply can't kill an archer.

If you chose any answer except C, you are not mentally retarded... Congratulations. Sadly, developers only hear from the people who chose C and they assume that the only solution for morons is to either make them much stronger or the archers much weaker. This is inherently a flawed system since paper-rock-scissors type combat promotes creativity and group tactics.

Those who answered C are the #1 reason MMORPGs suck.

1. The Carebear Effect

The worst thing about MMORPGs is that the vocal minority in the player base are capable of driving both the development of unreleased games (via forums), as well as the subsequent balancing patches of games released (via whining to administrators). This is quite obviously the most broken system in MMORPGs. I would still be playing Ultima Online today if their development team hadn't listened to the 8 people who couldn't survive in the harsh FFA PvP environment.

Carebears stifle creativity and progress in many aspects of our culture (both inside and outside of gaming). 12 pussies complained about how death penalties made Everquest too difficult, so all next-gen MMORPGs treat death like a form of slightly off-putting fast travel. If these gaming terrorist aren't stopped then we're looking forward to a future full of Hello Kitty Onlines... I'm not excited about that.

Shit, I hate carebears... I think I'll put that on a shirt or something.

Comments

  • BigdavoBigdavo BrisbanePosts: 2,065Member

    Everything you've said here is true. Unfortunately your opinion is going to fall on deaf ears.

    New MMORPG's are garbage to gamers like us, but unfortunately devs are following the money and this new crop of games are apparently what people seem to want.

    Unless the industry does a full 360 and goes back to its roots, it's more of the same.

    O_o o_O

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,638Member Uncommon
    An interesting list. Can't really say I agree with many of your points, but I do acknowledge there are several circles within the MMO gamer community that feel much the way you do.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • MystaisMystais Purcellville, VAPosts: 72Member

    In my opinion, the problem is that mmos have gone from:

    Expansive subscription based games that are made to keep players interested and playing for months/years

    to

    Shallow money crabs engineered to have players spend a lot of money up front for Founder packages and cash shop and then the company does not care if you stay for leave

    Tabletop RPG gaming since Chainmail and D&D was a blue book with some cheap plastic dice and a crayon. MMORPGing since MOOS/MUDS, when forums were just bulletin boards and players actually roleplayed their characters.

  • MukeMuke BredaPosts: 2,166Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Bigdavo

    Everything you've said here is true. Unfortunately your opinion is going to fall on deaf ears.

    New MMORPG's are garbage to gamers like us, but unfortunately devs are following the money and this new crop of games are apparently what people seem to want.

    Unless the industry does a full 360 and goes back to its roots, it's more of the same.

    It depends who are the developers;

    if it's 1 person or a team that wants to invent something innovative and stays true to their beliefs you might end up with a good game.

    If it's a big corperation that has shares, that has financers that are pushing for their investment returns then you end up with the big rush&grab job.

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • Four0SixFour0Six Missoula, MTPosts: 1,181Member Uncommon

    Baby steps are needed to "fix" the MMO genera.

    Step 1, From henceforth we must all delineate between mmoRPG, mmoFPS, mmoRTS, mmoXXX. I think this is actually the key to all our woes.

    After we fully intergrate this into the vocab of MMO gaming we can then look at the other issues.

     

  • Four0SixFour0Six Missoula, MTPosts: 1,181Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Bigdavo

    Everything you've said here is true. Unfortunately your opinion is going to fall on deaf ears.

    New MMORPG's are garbage to gamers like us, but unfortunately devs are following the money and this new crop of games are apparently what people seem to want.

    Unless the industry does a full 360 and goes back to its roots, it's more of the same.

    You mean a 180 I presume, since a 360 is a circle and you end facing the same way you  started.

     

  • danwest58danwest58 Cincinnati, OHPosts: 976Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by trash656

    1. The Carebear Effect

    The worst thing about MMORPGs is that the vocal minority in the player base are capable of driving both the development of unreleased games (via forums), as well as the subsequent balancing patches of games released (via whining to administrators). This is quite obviously the most broken system in MMORPGs. I would still be playing Ultima Online today if their development team hadn't listened to the 8 people who couldn't survive in the harsh FFA PvP environment.

    Carebears stifle creativity and progress in many aspects of our culture (both inside and outside of gaming). 12 pussies complained about how death penalties made Everquest too difficult, so all next-gen MMORPGs treat death like a form of slightly off-putting fast travel. If these gaming terrorist aren't stopped then we're looking forward to a future full of Hello Kitty Onlines... I'm not excited about that.

    Shit, I hate carebears... I think I'll put that on a shirt or something.

    I would agree with you until this point.  You can complain all you want about carebears blah blah blah how big of an EPEENS you have.  However when it comes down to it, it’s a game and people do not have fun with hardcore death penalties.  You can bitch all you want however your way will never be in MMOs ever again.  The few games that have hardcore penalties will have extremely small populations and never feel anything more like a multiplayer game.  Doubt me, why didn’t Mortal Online succeed?  Answer the Average MMO player does not have time for 5 hour body runs like they did in UO or having FFA looting systems in MMOs.  That died years ago when the market for MMOs figured out having soft death penalties created a larger player base so these Businesses could make more money.

    O FYI I played UO back in 1998, I was on and off until 2000 when they came out with trammel and guess what.  UO population Doubled within 1 year of trammel coming.  So get over it with your care bear fetish.  If you want Hardcore player a niche game or just delete your character every time you die and start over. 

    image

  • IshkalIshkal Schaumburg, ILPosts: 42Member
    BEST POST EVA and I hate a carebear too!!!!!!!! Trammel was fine in UO it was what came after that ruined it 
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,452Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by trash656

     

    1. The Carebear Effect

    The worst thing about MMORPGs is that the vocal minority in the player base are capable of driving both the development of unreleased games (via forums), as well as the subsequent balancing patches of games released (via whining to administrators). This is quite obviously the most broken system in MMORPGs. I would still be playing Ultima Online today if their development team hadn't listened to the 8 people who couldn't survive in the harsh FFA PvP environment.

    Carebears stifle creativity and progress in many aspects of our culture (both inside and outside of gaming). 12 pussies complained about how death penalties made Everquest too difficult, so all next-gen MMORPGs treat death like a form of slightly off-putting fast travel. If these gaming terrorist aren't stopped then we're looking forward to a future full of Hello Kitty Onlines... I'm not excited about that.

    Shit, I hate carebears... I think I'll put that on a shirt or something.

    Your arguments lost any credibility with that little gem.

    With that little admission you have just become just one more in the legion of "whiners". good job. image

  • pmilespmiles Federal Way, WAPosts: 383Member

    The funny thing here is that on the one hand you want MMOs to be harder, but on the other hand, you're not willing to spend 6 months to a year just to get to max level... or have gated entry into dungeons et al.  Your idea of hard is some boss fight.  A single encounter.  Not the game itself.  The game is all that it encompasses, not some small instanced little arena within the game.  In a nutshell, you want a challenge without the expense of time added to it.  The quicker you can get to point B the better.  It's not about the journey but the destination.  

     

    If it takes you 7 years to get to max level... would you say that day marked a significant milestone in your history?  Would hitting max level in 2 weeks yeild the same level of satisfaction?  I contend that what is lacking in MMOs is time.  You blame casuals for this when they are willing to spend more time to get something than a hardcore is.  I contend that it is the hardcore crowd that has been slowly killing off MMOs... their insatiable lust for more and more faster and faster has resulted in less and less for those willing to wait for it.  

     

    Now we have a hybrid player who wants it all now but isn't willing to spend any time doing it.  They toss phrases out like "I just don't have the time like I used to" and such.  Really?  If you don't have the time to play the game, do something else.  Remember that when you were younger and more into these games... you had all the time in the world... that's why they appealed to you... you needed to waster 12 hours of the day... now you're lucky if you have 2 free hours a day.   You demanded that the games be modified to allow you to play even though you really shouldn't be spending your time in a game.  The developers appeased you.  And now you are mad because the game has become so easy... so time friendly.

     

    You either have no life and can dedicate 12 hours a day to playing games or you don't.  Why in the world would a developer create a game for the 1% when they can make one for the 99%?  Back in the day they made games for geeky kids with unending time on their hands... now that they've all grown up, they are making games for the working stiffs who have a wife a kid and a mortgage to pay.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member

    I laughed at the carebares being the vocal minority. It seems any time someone wants their point of view to hold more weight that's the first thing they throw out there...well after you give them a name like that of course.

    Clearly these games are being designed for the vocal minority. The majority of gamers aren't in game paying for them. They're on this site not paying because everything is crap. The devs are just stupid and not listening to the right people.

  • danwest58danwest58 Cincinnati, OHPosts: 976Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by pmiles

    The funny thing here is that on the one hand you want MMOs to be harder, but on the other hand, you're not willing to spend 6 months to a year just to get to max level... or have gated entry into dungeons et al.  Your idea of hard is some boss fight.  A single encounter.  Not the game itself.  The game is all that it encompasses, not some small instanced little arena within the game.  In a nutshell, you want a challenge without the expense of time added to it.  The quicker you can get to point B the better.  It's not about the journey but the destination.  

     

    If it takes you 7 years to get to max level... would you say that day marked a significant milestone in your history?  Would hitting max level in 2 weeks yeild the same level of satisfaction?  I contend that what is lacking in MMOs is time.  You blame casuals for this when they are willing to spend more time to get something than a hardcore is.  I contend that it is the hardcore crowd that has been slowly killing off MMOs... their insatiable lust for more and more faster and faster has resulted in less and less for those willing to wait for it.  

     

    Now we have a hybrid player who wants it all now but isn't willing to spend any time doing it.  They toss phrases out like "I just don't have the time like I used to" and such.  Really?  If you don't have the time to play the game, do something else.  Remember that when you were younger and more into these games... you had all the time in the world... that's why they appealed to you... you needed to waster 12 hours of the day... now you're lucky if you have 2 free hours a day.   You demanded that the games be modified to allow you to play even though you really shouldn't be spending your time in a game.  The developers appeased you.  And now you are mad because the game has become so easy... so time friendly.

     

    You either have no life and can dedicate 12 hours a day to playing games or you don't.  Why in the world would a developer create a game for the 1% when they can make one for the 99%?  Back in the day they made games for geeky kids with unending time on their hands... now that they've all grown up, they are making games for the working stiffs who have a wife a kid and a mortgage to pay.

    So what is your solution cut out 54% of the MMO population because they cannot play 12 hours a day?  The average age of the MMO gamer is 34 that like you said only has 2 hours a day, maybe 3 to 5 hours on the weekend to play.  So what should businesses ignore this large group of the mmo population?

     

    image

  • pmilespmiles Federal Way, WAPosts: 383Member
    I didn't start this thread, I merely commented on it.  I'm not writing a treatse on how to make the game work for everyone, just pointing out that when we all started playing these games back in the day... we had oodles more free time on our hands... and damn if the games didn't accommodate that.  Now that we don't have any free time, it makes sense that the games now require less free time.  Harking back to what was without taking in consideration that was then versus this is now.  If you really want to resurrect the old... you have to resurrect all the time sinks that went with it... I'm saying that most don't want the time sink, just the rewards.
  • danwest58danwest58 Cincinnati, OHPosts: 976Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DamonVile

    I laughed at the carebares being the vocal minority. It seems any time someone wants their point of view to hold more weight that's the first thing they throw out there...well after you give them a name like that of course.

    Clearly these games are being designed for the vocal minority. The majority of gamers aren't in game paying for them. They're on this site not paying because everything is crap. The devs are just stupid and not listening to the right people.

    I would have to agree with this because you get Devs like in Wildstar and FFXIV where they want 20, 24 or 40 man raids.  When I look on the FFXIV Beta forums I see people wanting 8/10/16 man raids not 24 man raids like a few people want.  When I speak to my friends who all are average gamers who have families and lives none of them want a raid larger than 10 man.  They are also the Majority of gamers that just play a game and never will post on a forum.  I am the one that does because well, I like to argue.  So what is happening now with my group of friends is that they are no longer playing MMOs because they feel like the Developers do not pay attension to the market.  

    image

  • Pixel_JockeyPixel_Jockey Auburn Hills, MIPosts: 165Member
    I dislike most of the new MMO games too, and agree with you on some points. On the other hand, there are allot of people who like the current games for various reasons (the sales numbers alone testify to this). I perfer an open world type game with sandbox elements (something with some depth/timesinks) but allot of people do not have time (or other reasons) for these games and perfer the lobby/instance style themeparks. The problem for me personally is not that the "themepark" games exsist, I am glad they exsist for the people who like them. The problem for me is that there are next to no quality games for the open world/sandbox element type gamers like myself. I am hoping EQ Next solves this problem, but I am not holding my breath. 
  • pmilespmiles Federal Way, WAPosts: 383Member

    People say they want the old 40 man raids back... so if you were to do a 40 man raid tomorrow... would you have 40 people of the right class makeup to do one?  40 people who can consistently show up on time and ready to pound their heads into the keyboard for 2 months straight trying to clear an instance?  It is harder to orchestrate 40 people than 10, but then a 40 man raid is far more forgiving of mistakes than a 10 man is too.  I contend what you really miss is the community of players that 40 mans brought with them more than anything else because a challenge can be had at a much smaller scale... but it doesn't build a community.

  • danwest58danwest58 Cincinnati, OHPosts: 976Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by pmiles

    People say they want the old 40 man raids back... so if you were to do a 40 man raid tomorrow... would you have 40 people of the right class makeup to do one?  40 people who can consistently show up on time and ready to pound their heads into the keyboard for 2 months straight trying to clear an instance?  It is harder to orchestrate 40 people than 10, but then a 40 man raid is far more forgiving of mistakes than a 10 man is too.  I contend what you really miss is the community of players that 40 mans brought with them more than anything else because a challenge can be had at a much smaller scale... but it doesn't build a community.

    I will say this is true.  Thats the only think I miss about 40 man raids is having a larger community.  I hated leading the 40 man raids because just 1 or 2 people needed to be problem childern and they could ruin your night.  I keep saying this, there is no market for large raids anymore.  Devs dont want to listen so they go make wildstar.

    image

  • trash656trash656 Here, SKPosts: 357Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath
     

    Your arguments lost any credibility with that little gem.

    With that little admission you have just become just one more in the legion of "whiners". good job. image

    Call me whatever you want, but anyone who would actually take a personal offence to what I posted is obviously the one with the problem, or a carebear himself who passively accepts all these shitter and shitter MMO's bending over and taking it up the tailpipe from the big Development companys. If that makes me a Whiner, then I'm proud of it, because there is nothing more lower in this world, then man who kisses ass so he can get a few brownie points from a couple of fat rich douchebags that don't give a damn about you or me.

  • PAL-18PAL-18 AnachronoxPosts: 802Member
    Originally posted by trash656

    1. The Carebear Effect

    The worst thing about MMORPGs is that the vocal minority in the player base are capable of driving both the development of unreleased games (via forums), as well as the subsequent balancing patches of games released (via whining to administrators). This is quite obviously the most broken system in MMORPGs. I would still be playing Ultima Online today if their development team hadn't listened to the 8 people who couldn't survive in the harsh FFA PvP environment.

     

    Easy to fix,remove forums and add gm events and polls in game and such.

    Wont happen,whiners are easy to control and produces lots and lots of money.

     

    So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.
    By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
    **On the radar:http://cyberpunk.net/**

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Instancing

    But it won't go away.
    Here's why.

    Dev on their cv can put "i designed this awesome dungeon, battleground, raid" etc..

    Which sounds much better than "i designed a system for dynamically scaling mob appearance and diversity in an area of the world based on player density and level"
  • trash656trash656 Here, SKPosts: 357Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by danwest58
    Originally posted by trash656

    1. The Carebear Effect

    The worst thing about MMORPGs is that the vocal minority in the player base are capable of driving both the development of unreleased games (via forums), as well as the subsequent balancing patches of games released (via whining to administrators). This is quite obviously the most broken system in MMORPGs. I would still be playing Ultima Online today if their development team hadn't listened to the 8 people who couldn't survive in the harsh FFA PvP environment.

    Carebears stifle creativity and progress in many aspects of our culture (both inside and outside of gaming). 12 pussies complained about how death penalties made Everquest too difficult, so all next-gen MMORPGs treat death like a form of slightly off-putting fast travel. If these gaming terrorist aren't stopped then we're looking forward to a future full of Hello Kitty Onlines... I'm not excited about that.

    Shit, I hate carebears... I think I'll put that on a shirt or something.

    I would agree with you until this point.  You can complain all you want about carebears blah blah blah how big of an EPEENS you have.  However when it comes down to it, it’s a game and people do not have fun with hardcore death penalties.  You can bitch all you want however your way will never be in MMOs ever again.  The few games that have hardcore penalties will have extremely small populations and never feel anything more like a multiplayer game.  Doubt me, why didn’t Mortal Online succeed?  Answer the Average MMO player does not have time for 5 hour body runs like they did in UO or having FFA looting systems in MMOs.  That died years ago when the market for MMOs figured out having soft death penalties created a larger player base so these Businesses could make more money.

    O FYI I played UO back in 1998, I was on and off until 2000 when they came out with trammel and guess what.  UO population Doubled within 1 year of trammel coming.  So get over it with your care bear fetish.  If you want Hardcore player a niche game or just delete your character every time you die and start over. 

    I completely Agree with you about the Death Penaltys, but You are completely missing the point here. Although Good try in trying to prove a point by exaggerating and generalizing things that never took place BTW, because if you really did play UO back then. You should already know there were no 5 hour corpse runs in UO, Not even in EQ1 unless the player was a complete utter Moron that didn't know which direction to go.

    See Obedient Gamers,  and Carebears go hand in hand because they are just like butt kissing Workers in the real world who kiss up to management, and accept shittier wages, benifits, and pention meanwhile they are getting nailed up the behind by a few PR people telling them that how wonderful things are compared the way they used to be, it's the same with Gamers who are just smart enough to run the game and believe a MMORPG can be great by making things easier and easier, and believe just graphics and gameplay Alone make a descent MMORPG. But just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shittier MMORPG's with the less depth, less interesting content, simplistic and dumb down classes, and difficulty to where even a small infant can play it, and in the end of vanishing depth, uniqueness, creativity, and roleplaying elements all disappears that disappears the minute you go and pre-order one of your Favorite themeparks. Starwars the old republic which is one of the saddest over commercialized MMORPG's to have ever been developed, along with the long list of newer MMORPG's that I wouldn't even call MMORPG's I would just call them Multiplayer games.
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