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Why developers don't allow us to build our character anymore ?

iixviiiixiixviiiix GSPosts: 836Member Uncommon

Earn some stats when level up and build your character in your own way.

Equipment depend on stats.

 

Why they don't allow player to build our character anymore ?

I know that there still some game use that system , but why most MMOs out here don't use it ?

 

 

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Comments

  • ScalplessScalpless SnowballvillePosts: 1,396Member Uncommon
    Out of the recent MMOs, at least Path of Exile, GW2 and The Secret World allow you to allocate stats manually. Or do you mean classless systems? I think they're often avoided for balance reasons and to make builds more different.
  • SmikisSmikis VilniusPosts: 1,045Member
    well choosing stats would be bad for any mmo balance
  • RamanadjinnRamanadjinn Huntsville, ALPosts: 1,365Member Uncommon

    many feel variation in balance is directly proportional to variation in the characters themselves

     

  • thecapitainethecapitaine West Chester, PAPosts: 401Member Uncommon
    It's easier to design around a system with fewer unknowns and limiting what can be done with stats is one way devs simplify things.  Plus, a lot of new players find themselves baffled by the options and unintentionally gimp themselves as they level a character, especially when the game's systems are somewhat opaque.  Even a relatively straightforward game like Champion's Online suffered from a lot of gimped avatars (and complaints) back when it was P2P.  The superstat point allocation system along with power choices and interactions made for a sizable group of people who didn't even know where to start in building a remotely optimal hero.
  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Smikis
    well choosing stats would be bad for any mmo balance

    tell that to an RPG player :)

     

    we handled them for ages. yes, you don't get perfect balance.... but hell

    name one balanced mmo.

     

    you CAN NOT BALANCE mmos. 

    pong was balanced.

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Thane
    Originally posted by Smikis
    well choosing stats would be bad for any mmo balance

    tell that to an RPG player :)

     

    we handled them for ages. yes, you don't get perfect balance.... but hell

    name one balanced mmo.

     

    you CAN NOT BALANCE mmos. 

    pong was balanced.

    Stop confusing stricht balance for "good enough" balance which can be achieved. This is of course ignoring purposeful perfect imbalance.

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,296Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Thane
    Originally posted by Smikis
    well choosing stats would be bad for any mmo balance

    tell that to an RPG player :)

     

    we handled them for ages. yes, you don't get perfect balance.... but hell

    name one balanced mmo.

     

    you CAN NOT BALANCE mmos. 

    pong was balanced.

    it would also eliminate 50 percent of the content of most MMO's out there.. Gear Grind..

    heavens forbid they should actually introduce actual game content to replace the gear chasing treadmill that everybody loves so much image

  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by Thane
    Originally posted by Smikis
    well choosing stats would be bad for any mmo balance

    tell that to an RPG player :)

     

    we handled them for ages. yes, you don't get perfect balance.... but hell

    name one balanced mmo.

     

    you CAN NOT BALANCE mmos. 

    pong was balanced.

    Stop confusing stricht balance for "good enough" balance which can be achieved. This is of course ignoring purposeful perfect imbalance.

    yes, and balance WAS good enough while we played those games with pen and paper. all of a sudden this system is not working anymore? doesn't sound legit to me.

    you think we did not pvp? we did. also we had raids and dungeons if you wanna see it this way.

    basically the only thing changed is the medium and the audience.

     

    you CAN do stat based games.

    you CAN give players a choice.

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Thane
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
     

    yes, and balance WAS good enough while we played those games with pen and paper. all of a sudden this system is not working anymore? doesn't sound legit to me.

    you think we did not pvp? we did. also we had raids and dungeons if you wanna see it this way.

    basically the only thing changed is the medium and the audience.

     

    you CAN do stat based games.

    you CAN give players a choice.

    PnP games have nothing to do with MMOs. And for the record, D&D was very poorly balanced.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    PnP games have nothing to do with MMOs. And for the record, D&D was very poorly balanced.

    ^ This. Mages being stupidly op by the mid levels thanks to how they decided to do scaling and magic as a huge example.

    While you most certainly CAN give players choices the sheer amount of polish demanded by the masses means they shouldn't.

  • DigironoDigirono Charlotte, NCPosts: 86Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Thane
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
     

    yes, and balance WAS good enough while we played those games with pen and paper. all of a sudden this system is not working anymore? doesn't sound legit to me.

    you think we did not pvp? we did. also we had raids and dungeons if you wanna see it this way.

    basically the only thing changed is the medium and the audience.

     

    you CAN do stat based games.

    you CAN give players a choice.

    PnP games have nothing to do with MMOs. And for the record, D&D was very poorly balanced.

    Hah..yeah. Look at 3.5, it's why everyone(Usually, not all the time) goes with some variant of "Magic-User". In 1st Ed. and 1st. Ed. AD&D it was a bit more balanced, but it wasn't "Perfect". ((Plus there weren't as many classes. 1st. Ed only had 3? Classes..Fighter, Magic-User, and Cleric, 1st Ed. AD&D put in 7 or 8 more)). There won't be a game with the perfect balance, someone will always find a way to imbalance it, doesn't matter if they allow us to allocate our own stats, or they give us a template and all we have to get is the gear and levels.

    image

  • StrommStromm BrisbanePosts: 243Member
    Originally posted by iixviiiix

    Earn some stats when level up and build your character in your own way.

    Equipment depend on stats.

     

    Why they don't allow player to build our character anymore ?

    I know that there still some game use that system , but why most MMOs out here don't use it ?

     

     

    Because to have multiple build options you need to invest the time and effort to create differentiated options that are somewhat balanced and equivalent. Developers don't do that. They create one obviously preferred option and throw a bunch of crap in to pad out the rest. Players work this out and create cookie-cutter builds that get posted in the forums and suddenly a) everyone is running the cookie-cutter build, b) anyone not running the cookie-cutter build is under-performing c) anyone not using the cookie-cutter and not doing a MOUNTAIN of their own theorycrafting, experimentation and modelling is running the probably risk of gimping themselves.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,281Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by iixviiiix

    Earn some stats when level up and build your character in your own way.

    Equipment depend on stats.

     

    Why they don't allow player to build our character anymore ?

    I know that there still some game use that system , but why most MMOs out here don't use it ?

     

     

    Stop playing the cookie cutter, copy past games this site hypes. 

     

    Wushu, there are no two characters the same. From their 17 or so profession to the  weapons they wield.

     

     

  • thecapitainethecapitaine West Chester, PAPosts: 401Member Uncommon

    Stop confusing stricht balance for "good enough" balance which can be achieved. This is of course ignoring purposeful perfect imbalance.

    yes, and balance WAS good enough while we played those games with pen and paper. all of a sudden this system is not working anymore? doesn't sound legit to me.

    you think we did not pvp? we did. also we had raids and dungeons if you wanna see it this way.

    basically the only thing changed is the medium and the audience.

     

    you CAN do stat based games.

    you CAN give players a choice.

    While I agree with the two points you underscore at the end, that it can be done, I also think your argument is a bit oversimplified.  As a rule, PnP games were cooperative rather than competitive.  Yes, PvP could arise, yest there could be dissent and conflict, but the games were designed to foster a group dynamic of working together to achieve a common goal, no matter the genre.  In practice, MMOs don't really work that way-- the moment a piece of rare loot drops in an average dungeon or a DPS/Healer/Tank doesn't "pull their weight" makes that abundantly clear.

     

    A DM can allow the utmost freedom when there's a handful of players to shepherd along through an encounter and she can tailor the challenges to complement them.  Double, triple, quadruple the number and it's inevitable that any carefully crafted scenario will be undone by one or two players who've built their characters in a way that trivializes the content.  Now expand that out to include hundreds or thousands of players with hundreds of thousands of unique builds and it's easy to see how that can be daunting for developers to guard against.  This is especially clear in an age where there are solid metrics that players can use to compare one person against another, something that just wasn't even a consideration back when a lot of us were enjoying tabletop games.

  • MukeMuke BredaPosts: 2,172Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by iixviiiix

    Earn some stats when level up and build your character in your own way.

    Equipment depend on stats.

     

    Why they don't allow player to build our character anymore ?

    I know that there still some game use that system , but why most MMOs out here don't use it ?

     

     

    -Studies reveal it is cheaper to decide the path of the player for them by holding them on a leash.

    -less (pvp)balancing issues with less templates.

     

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • DauzqulDauzqul Detroit, MIPosts: 1,410Member Uncommon
    Because players have become a bunch of babies...   crying that everything must be perfectly equal.
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by iixviiiix

    Earn some stats when level up and build your character in your own way.

    Equipment depend on stats.

     

    Why they don't allow player to build our character anymore ?

    I know that there still some game use that system , but why most MMOs out here don't use it ?

     

     

    Because WoW doesn't let you and all MMOs just copy WoW.

     

    Also, any chance at failure is removed, hence why all MMOs are so boring now.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Smikis
    well choosing stats would be bad for any mmo balance

    How would it be bad? Please explain, I for one enjoy figuring out new builds and not being able to pick my stats means no freedom in builds, all are the same of that class.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • NL-RikkertNL-Rikkert schagenPosts: 121Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Thane
    Originally posted by Smikis
    well choosing stats would be bad for any mmo balance

    tell that to an RPG player :)

     

    we handled them for ages. yes, you don't get perfect balance.... but hell

    name one balanced mmo.

     

    you CAN NOT BALANCE mmos. 

    pong was balanced.

    Lol no you cannot balance a MMO , but devs still try, because they don't want one player ganking all other players in their game due to a certain build. Of course this all fails time and time again. As a RPG player I love more freedom and control over my character, but this would leave some people without a brain clueless on how to play.

    And no game is balanced really, of course they can be somewhat if all players have to exact same abilities. Though even in that case one of those players will have superior reflexes or better insight, thus making him/her unbalanced compared to their opponent. 

    STOOPID
    When someone does something so utterly moronic that it kills your brain cells at the very thought of it.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,674Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dauzqul
    Because players have become a bunch of babies...   crying that everything must be perfectly equal.

    Notice the word "gimped" has all but disappeared from character build discussions when it used to be prolific five or six years ago.

    Many players want choice until they have it, then once they have it they find every excuse under the sun as to why the developer should not have let them make the bad choice (for them) that they made.

    And. NO, that's not the casual player at fault there, but the min-maxing veteran who watches every fraction of a point and notices the slighest change in DPS, defense, harvest rate, etc with a critical eye. A classic example of that is when WOW reduced DPS and upped crit % on Hunters in 2005. In game, most hunters barely noticed a difference and, of the ones that did, they didn't feel it made much of a change. On the forums, you'd swear Blizzard replaced all bows with broken Nerf guns and them personally ran up the shoulders of each Hunter character to take a dump on their heads.

    That is who the crying babies are that caused this shift.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by NL-Rikkert
     

    Lol no you cannot balance a MMO , but devs still try, because they don't want one player ganking all other players in their game due to a certain build. Of course this all fails time and time again. As a RPG player I love more freedom and control over my character, but this would leave some people without a brain clueless on how to play.

    And no game is balanced really, of course they can be somewhat if all players have to exact same abilities. Though even in that case one of those players will have superior reflexes or better insight, thus making him/her unbalanced compared to their opponent. 

    On the contrary. If player skill is all that matters, the game is balanced.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    I would much rather choose skills that do something different, then choosing numbers ... one point here, and two points there.

    Why? Because that is a more interesting choice. Choosing numbers? Just look up an optimal build, and there is only one correct solution.

  • MystaisMystais Purcellville, VAPosts: 72Member
    In today's mmos, character individuality is pretty much just an illusion.  All aspects of the game are balanced to the nth degree.  Specific weapons and armor are handed out at specific levels and characters can only use weapons made for their level.  It's all smoke and mirrors maaan. 

    Tabletop RPG gaming since Chainmail and D&D was a blue book with some cheap plastic dice and a crayon. MMORPGing since MOOS/MUDS, when forums were just bulletin boards and players actually roleplayed their characters.

  • TsuruTsuru Silverspring, MDPosts: 264Member Uncommon
    The gamers of today are more worried about being useful late game. People will go out of their way to change to make sure they are the best character for their role, because they are worried if they dont people will not pick them for their role because they are not optimized. Thus those gamers will become discouraged, change their character completely and conform to the norm. Alot of games that use a stat system or a choose your own character path system dont allow you to redo your character once its made, unless you spend money to do so. Thus once again, people who dont want to spend money will follow what other people are doing to make sure they have the "best" character for their role. This is why the gaming industry takes away all forms of choice and just gives you a character to make better. To do dungeons, or craft or what have you to get better gear to become better. 
  • MystaisMystais Purcellville, VAPosts: 72Member
    Originally posted by Tsuru
    The gamers of today are more worried about being useful late game. People will go out of their way to change to make sure they are the best character for their role, because they are worried if they dont people will not pick them for their role because they are not optimized. Thus those gamers will become discouraged, change their character completely and conform to the norm. Alot of games that use a stat system or a choose your own character path system dont allow you to redo your character once its made, unless you spend money to do so. Thus once again, people who dont want to spend money will follow what other people are doing to make sure they have the "best" character for their role. This is why the gaming industry takes away all forms of choice and just gives you a character to make better. To do dungeons, or craft or what have you to get better gear to become better. 

    Easier to allow folks to build their character as they wish (stats/skills) and just allow a respec option.  Maybe some folks want to experiment and try new things and not just follow the flock.

    Tabletop RPG gaming since Chainmail and D&D was a blue book with some cheap plastic dice and a crayon. MMORPGing since MOOS/MUDS, when forums were just bulletin boards and players actually roleplayed their characters.

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