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Explain this idea of "Immersion" to me.

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  • revslaverevslave ..., NYPosts: 154Member Uncommon

    Hello

    Immersion is how connected you feel to a particular game, character or storyline.  Reasons for sighting what is immersion breaking will be as varied as the individuals who are sighting them.   What is more important however is that at some level we understand that what is immersion breaking for you may not be the same for me.   

    I used to be surprised when people complained about fast travel, when the option of walking was available, or Dungeon finders when the MMO provided the player with tools to create a guild, and find like-minded people who did not enjoy the service. But now I tend not to listen, people will focus on what is important to them, and how they perceive a game to be played, with an expectation that other should be required to as well.

    I remember the forum discussions on appearance armor in EQ2, and if certain class would be able to wear specific armor. For some people this was very important, however the fact that a plate wear could swim as well as a cloth wearer was not.

    Welcome Home

    Rev.

    image

  • SunshineeSunshinee Tempe, AZPosts: 12Member
    Originally posted by Kuinn

    WoW is a great example game in this topic since it has lived a long life so far and a lot of changes happened in it. The simple truth is that WoW had tons of human interaction in it's original version, and these days it has basically none at all. That's why I have a problem with all these accesibility tools.

     

    Though they are not the only reason for this. Dungeon finder alone does not do this, the real bad guy here is cross-realm tech and dumbed down difficulty. You enter dungeon with complete strangers, you propably wont meet them again, there's no reason to talk to them since you basically cant utilize them later or become friends with them like before cross-realms stuff.

     

    Then the difficulty, when you just AoE everything in seconds, there's not much reason to talk about tactics at least. So there's basically 5 persons playing this content in singleplayer together.

     

    Though the dungeon tool adds to all this too, it's so easy to just "pop-in" that if anything goes wrong in the dungeon, people again say nothing and just leaves, and then que again when the cooldown is off. We actually had reputations back then, and server communities where people knew each others more or less, and knew that they will meet again.

     

    Back in the day, when we had to put group together, or perhaps more because we had to run to the dungeon, people were willing to work together better since they had to make that trip. Now they dont have to make that trip and can just pop-in and pop-out without moving an inch.

     

    I'm curious for the OP though, if you dont care about immersion at all and are there just for the gameplay alone, does it not matter at all an in the slightest what the setting or story is then? I dont understand (I'm not saying this in a negative way) how people can completely separate them from these worlds created for us and just focus on the mechanical side of the game, is it like in Matrix seeing the code pouring down before your eyes being able to ignore the rest of the world? Hehe :)

    Thanks for everyone who posted in this thread, I read every single comment, even the mean ones torward me lol No I was not trolling, and I will answer your question above.

    Actually no the story doesn't matter to me at all because everyone else in the world is experiencing the same story at the same I'm doing the same thing. I can somewhat get onboard with a story in a single player RPG game, but my question is about MMO's because for me I DON'T GET IT.  The closest thing was swtor because it did make an emphasis on story, but even that I quit at level 15.

    Basically I guess we have all have different views, but what I've come away from in this thread is at least somewhat better understanding of people who make their arguments of not wanting certain features in a game due to "breaking immerson". Though I probably won't agree with :D

     

  • sunshadow21sunshadow21 Omaha, NEPosts: 354Member
    To me, it's less what tools are used and more how they are implemented. One big difference in the age of EQ is that each game tended to have it's own way of doing everything, and the mechanics used were tied into the game lore. Now, it's just assumed that every game is going to have the same checklist of mechanics and tools if it wants to be successful, and the uniqueness of the actual lore/world/races/classes/etc. of the individual games gets lost in the overall noise of the genre as a whole. This isn't to say that having the advanced tools such as teleporting and lfd functions are bad, but too often they simply get tacked on as an afterthought or just one more check on the list without thinking about they will actually interact with the world, and when that is blatantly obvious to the player, it's very hard for me at least to really get interested or feel like I'm somehow a part of this fantasy world. I think we're starting to see more experimentation again in how to implement these things, and which ones to try to implement in the first place, so that the worlds don't seem so cookie cutter-ish and that is a good thing in my mind; not every mechanic, or implementation of a mechanic, will work for everybody, but everybody should be able to find their perfect balance of mechanics and rp somewhere rather than having to deal with the "but WOW did it this way" mentality that has filled the majority of the MMO market the last decade.
  • sunshadow21sunshadow21 Omaha, NEPosts: 354Member
    Originally posted by GroovyFlower

    Example i loved Morrowind becouse it had very limited instant travel most of the time you had to walk/run around world exploring.

    Then came Oblivion with instant travel to almost every part on map if you had discovered it all same in Skyrim i still dont like it for me its immersion breaker i walk/run most in skyrim barely use instant travel.

    This is a good example of how I think the implementation is as important as the mechanic chosen. The idea behind fast travel is not bad; it is useful at times and for certain tasks, like moving stuff between my houses. The fact that you don't have to use it at all if you don't want to, along the fact that you have to find the places before you can fast travel to them, and the fact that time still passes as if you had walked all make the system very usable to me in Skyrim. It still requires exploration, both to get places marked on the map and to get to places not marked on the map, but makes hauling large amounts of stuff  between your homes possible and significantly less time consuming for the player. serving the same function as the teleport spell in Morrowind. It can be abused and some people will use it to avoid exploration and travel as much as possible, taking a major component out of the game, but there is a big difference between the devs putting that option in and the devs making that option all but required to use, and in Skyrim, at least, they have avoided the latter very well.

    Transportation and teleport systems in general seem to be one of the biggest problems when it comes to this matter of immersion. You have to force people to actually be a part of the world, but just like in the real world, people will have plenty of reasons to develop faster travel methods than walking, so it's a balancing act of how you implement those methods so that they are not required and enhance the world rather than becoming a way to largely ignore the world.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by sunshadow21

    Transportation and teleport systems in general seem to be one of the biggest problems when it comes to this matter of immersion. You have to force people to actually be a part of the world, but just like in the real world, people will have plenty of reasons to develop faster travel methods than walking, so it's a balancing act of how you implement those methods so that they are not required and enhance the world rather than becoming a way to largely ignore the world.

    People often forget immersion needs to balance with fun. Walking the same stretch of land again, and again (back-tracking) is realistic but not fun for most people.

    Hence, even OBlivion has fast travel.

    I doubt anyone can make walking the 1000th time from the bank to the tavern fun.

  • DestaiDestai Detroit, MIPosts: 574Member

    Immersion has several components for me. 

    1. The game needs to feel alive, first and foremost. I love seeing boats coming and going, reading lore drops, dynamic events, texts explaining the world around me. 

    2. The user interface should only reflect the feel of the game and my character. Nothing in the user interface should pull me into a store, save that for the log in screen or the website.

    3. Sounds are important. The chattering of NPCs, the creaking of a boat, the sound of my feet hitting the ground - that's all immersive.

    4. Combat should have a tactile feel to it. If i'm playing melee, I want to be aware of how I'm hitting somebody, not just staring at a bar. 

    5. Crafting should be meaningful and give me a reason to explore the game. 

    6. External humor should be kept to a minimum, ie pop culture references. If I want pop culture references, I'll go watch Family Guy. 

    Immersion is the idea that game is an escape, another world to explore. The systems of the game should support this illusion and give you something special to remember.

  • sunshadow21sunshadow21 Omaha, NEPosts: 354Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by sunshadow21

    Transportation and teleport systems in general seem to be one of the biggest problems when it comes to this matter of immersion. You have to force people to actually be a part of the world, but just like in the real world, people will have plenty of reasons to develop faster travel methods than walking, so it's a balancing act of how you implement those methods so that they are not required and enhance the world rather than becoming a way to largely ignore the world.

    People often forget immersion needs to balance with fun. Walking the same stretch of land again, and again (back-tracking) is realistic but not fun for most people.

    Hence, even OBlivion has fast travel.

    I doubt anyone can make walking the 1000th time from the bank to the tavern fun.

    And the challenge here is making sure that implementing such systems does not detract from the immersion aspect of the game. Too often in MMOs today, I see a lot of systems slapped in without regard to how they effect the rest of the gameplay or world immersion and they end up detracting from the game as a whole despite their usefulness. The early MMOs did a lot better job creating an entire game that, while not perfect, worked reasonably well together; heck, that's the cornerstone of how WOW succeeded. Most games since WOW have forgotten and/or abandoned that big picture kind of thinking and have suffered for it. Not every system is going to enhance the game and be the major selling point, but at no point should any individual system cause harm to the overall game, either. That, to me, is the point of immersion; how well do the mechanics and the world/lore aspects match each other? The more they match up, the better the experience is as a whole regardless of the quality of the individual components.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by sunshadow21
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by sunshadow21

    Transportation and teleport systems in general seem to be one of the biggest problems when it comes to this matter of immersion. You have to force people to actually be a part of the world, but just like in the real world, people will have plenty of reasons to develop faster travel methods than walking, so it's a balancing act of how you implement those methods so that they are not required and enhance the world rather than becoming a way to largely ignore the world.

    People often forget immersion needs to balance with fun. Walking the same stretch of land again, and again (back-tracking) is realistic but not fun for most people.

    Hence, even OBlivion has fast travel.

    I doubt anyone can make walking the 1000th time from the bank to the tavern fun.

    And the challenge here is making sure that implementing such systems does not detract from the immersion aspect of the game. Too often in MMOs today, I see a lot of systems slapped in without regard to how they effect the rest of the gameplay or world immersion and they end up detracting from the game as a whole despite their usefulness. The early MMOs did a lot better job creating an entire game that, while not perfect, worked reasonably well together; heck, that's the cornerstone of how WOW succeeded. Most games since WOW have forgotten and/or abandoned that big picture kind of thinking and have suffered for it. Not every system is going to enhance the game and be the major selling point, but at no point should any individual system cause harm to the overall game, either. That, to me, is the point of immersion; how well do the mechanics and the world/lore aspects match each other? The more they match up, the better the experience is as a whole regardless of the quality of the individual components.

    I think many devs are just ignoring the challenge because few seems to mind.

    Look at LFD. Certainly games need that to make it convenient (just look at how popular it is). It is not hard to conjure up some magical mumbo jumbo so that a LFD system is more consistent with the lore and context of the game world (oh .. this magical orb will show you other adventurers having the same goals, and will magically teleport you to the to fulfill your destiny!).

    However, no one bothers to even try. That tells you something. Immersion is just not that important if it is in conflict with convenience or other aspects of fun.

  • sunshadow21sunshadow21 Omaha, NEPosts: 354Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    I think many devs are just ignoring the challenge because few seems to mind.

    Look at LFD. Certainly games need that to make it convenient (just look at how popular it is). It is not hard to conjure up some magical mumbo jumbo so that a LFD system is more consistent with the lore and context of the game world (oh .. this magical orb will show you other adventurers having the same goals, and will magically teleport you to the to fulfill your destiny!).

    However, no one bothers to even try. That tells you something. Immersion is just not that important if it is in conflict with convenience or other aspects of fun.

    It actually is, and that is why most people really don't like most of the games that are currently out for more than a month. Few seem to mind because they can always just move on to the next big thing, but for the state of the genre as a whole, it's not a good state of affairs when the whole idea was to have long term worlds and communities and we're reduced to glorified single player games that people pick up and discard without even a thought. I'm sure some people like it that way, but it really does hurt MMOs as a whole because it means that the original market and concept has been all but forgotten in the name of money and convenience.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by sunshadow21
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    I think many devs are just ignoring the challenge because few seems to mind.

    Look at LFD. Certainly games need that to make it convenient (just look at how popular it is). It is not hard to conjure up some magical mumbo jumbo so that a LFD system is more consistent with the lore and context of the game world (oh .. this magical orb will show you other adventurers having the same goals, and will magically teleport you to the to fulfill your destiny!).

    However, no one bothers to even try. That tells you something. Immersion is just not that important if it is in conflict with convenience or other aspects of fun.

    It actually is, and that is why most people really don't like most of the games that are currently out for more than a month. Few seem to mind because they can always just move on to the next big thing, but for the state of the genre as a whole, it's not a good state of affairs when the whole idea was to have long term worlds and communities and we're reduced to glorified single player games that people pick up and discard without even a thought. I'm sure some people like it that way, but it really does hurt MMOs as a whole because it means that the original market and concept has been all but forgotten in the name of money and convenience.

    Solution is simple. Change the idea. The long term world thing is an old idea. We can use some innovation.

    Glorified Sp games are great .. if they are glorified enough.

  • sunshadow21sunshadow21 Omaha, NEPosts: 354Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by sunshadow21
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    I think many devs are just ignoring the challenge because few seems to mind.

    Look at LFD. Certainly games need that to make it convenient (just look at how popular it is). It is not hard to conjure up some magical mumbo jumbo so that a LFD system is more consistent with the lore and context of the game world (oh .. this magical orb will show you other adventurers having the same goals, and will magically teleport you to the to fulfill your destiny!).

    However, no one bothers to even try. That tells you something. Immersion is just not that important if it is in conflict with convenience or other aspects of fun.

    It actually is, and that is why most people really don't like most of the games that are currently out for more than a month. Few seem to mind because they can always just move on to the next big thing, but for the state of the genre as a whole, it's not a good state of affairs when the whole idea was to have long term worlds and communities and we're reduced to glorified single player games that people pick up and discard without even a thought. I'm sure some people like it that way, but it really does hurt MMOs as a whole because it means that the original market and concept has been all but forgotten in the name of money and convenience.

    Solution is simple. Change the idea. The long term world thing is an old idea. We can use some innovation.

    Glorified Sp games are great .. if they are glorified enough.

    Aside from the fact that your solution completely misses the point of why such games were developed in the first place, it obviously is what the game publishers have already done. Now we just need someone, not everyone, but at least someone, to get back to the original idea that still has a place in the market. Contrary to what you clearly think, implementations of both ideas can be available at the same time without threatening each other.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by sunshadow21
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
     

    Solution is simple. Change the idea. The long term world thing is an old idea. We can use some innovation.

    Glorified Sp games are great .. if they are glorified enough.

    Aside from the fact that your solution completely misses the point of why such games were developed in the first place, it obviously is what the game publishers have already done. Now we just need someone, not everyone, but at least someone, to get back to the original idea that still has a place in the market. Contrary to what you clearly think, implementations of both ideas can be available at the same time without threatening each other.

    The point of why such games were developed in the first place is not important .. if the point is not helping games to fulfill their function as entertainment products.

    Devs are already doing what i suggested because of market pressure, because of supply & demand.

    "Now we just need someone ..." .. who are "we"? If the "market" needs that, the invisible hand will have it done. If you are talking about yourself .. well .. no one owes you a game you like.

     

  • PAL-18PAL-18 AnachronoxPosts: 802Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    People often forget immersion needs to balance with fun. Walking the same stretch of land again, and again (back-tracking) is realistic but not fun for most people.

    Hence, even OBlivion has fast travel.

    I doubt anyone can make walking the 1000th time from the bank to the tavern fun.

    I try to imagine your balance with fun when you walk in your funny game alone but you know even walking from the bank to tavern can be fun even 100000 times because there is actually other people around and you never know what they are up to.

     

    So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.
    By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
    **On the radar:http://cyberpunk.net/**

  • sunshadow21sunshadow21 Omaha, NEPosts: 354Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by sunshadow21
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
     

    Solution is simple. Change the idea. The long term world thing is an old idea. We can use some innovation.

    Glorified Sp games are great .. if they are glorified enough.

    Aside from the fact that your solution completely misses the point of why such games were developed in the first place, it obviously is what the game publishers have already done. Now we just need someone, not everyone, but at least someone, to get back to the original idea that still has a place in the market. Contrary to what you clearly think, implementations of both ideas can be available at the same time without threatening each other.

    The point of why such games were developed in the first place is not important .. if the point is not helping games to fulfill their function as entertainment products.

    Devs are already doing what i suggested because of market pressure, because of supply & demand.

    "Now we just need someone ..." .. who are "we"? If the "market" needs that, the invisible hand will have it done. If you are talking about yourself .. well .. no one owes you a game you like.

     

    You forget that for the market they were originally developed, they were entertainment, and the new direction has tried to replace the old direction when in reality they can both can, and need to, coexist if the genre as as whole is going to maintain it's strength. Every other form of entertainment has niche submarkets, yet MMOs persist on following the "one true way" as if there is no other way that could possibly work despite the evidence that the current way is far from perfect.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    People often forget immersion needs to balance with fun. Walking the same stretch of land again, and again (back-tracking) is realistic but not fun for most people.

    Hence, even OBlivion has fast travel.

    I doubt anyone can make walking the 1000th time from the bank to the tavern fun.

    I try to imagine your balance with fun when you walk in your funny game alone but you know even walking from the bank to tavern can be fun even 100000 times because there is actually other people around and you never know what they are up to.

     

    Not in a PvE game when all they can do is spam you with guild invite.

    It was never fun for me walking the 10000th time from the bank to the tavern.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by sunshadow21
     

    You forget that for the market they were originally developed, they were entertainment, and the new direction has tried to replace the old direction when in reality they can both can, and need to, coexist if the genre as as whole is going to maintain it's strength. Every other form of entertainment has niche submarkets, yet MMOs persist on following the "one true way" as if there is no other way that could possibly work despite the evidence that the current way is far from perfect.

    They were entertainment .. just not very successful ones until they become better games.

    Oh, i don't doubt there is a niche market for it .. there is a niche market for anything. Just look at the market .. WOT is very different from WOW, very different from NWO, very different from LoL. There is no one true way.

     

  • rommellorommello calgary, ABPosts: 185Member
    immersion? wat the hell is immersion? do i give a dam or am i having any fun is the question

    hallo ~_~

  • geldonyetichgeldonyetich Vancouver, WAPosts: 1,340Member
    If you don't understand immersion, you're probably overthinking it.  Feeling "immersed" in an MMORPG is identical in nature to feeling fished in by a good book.  It captivates your imagination and makes you feel like you're "there" without too many "immersion-breaking" flaws detracting from the expereince.  Yes, there probably does not exist an MMORPG (or book) that is completely immersive, but does being more immersive than usual enhance the enjoyment of the game?  You better believe it does, and the opposite is also true for games with very poor immersion.
  • Punk999Punk999 Baytown, TXPosts: 873Member Uncommon

    Immersion to me is just like when i read a good book... it's as if im in that world watching it all unfold.

    ...atleast till my wife tells me to help clean ;(

    "Negaholics are people who become addicted to negativity and self-doubt, they find fault in most things and never seem to be satisfied."
    ^MMORPG.com

  • PAL-18PAL-18 AnachronoxPosts: 802Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    People often forget immersion needs to balance with fun. Walking the same stretch of land again, and again (back-tracking) is realistic but not fun for most people.

    Hence, even OBlivion has fast travel.

    I doubt anyone can make walking the 1000th time from the bank to the tavern fun.

    I try to imagine your balance with fun when you walk in your funny game alone but you know even walking from the bank to tavern can be fun even 100000 times because there is actually other people around and you never know what they are up to.

     

    Not in a PvE game when all they can do is spam you with guild invite.

    It was never fun for me walking the 10000th time from the bank to the tavern.

    Well roleplaying games and immersive world,you just need better immersive RP games it seems.

     

    So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.
    By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
    **On the radar:http://cyberpunk.net/**

  • casual187casual187 omaha, NEPosts: 32Member
    It's a time in a young girls life when............image
  • mcrippinsmcrippins Dallas, TXPosts: 1,069Member Uncommon

     

    im·merse

    [ih-murs]

    verb (used with object), im·mersed, im·mers·ing.

    1. to plunge into or place under a liquid; dip; sink.

    2. to involve deeply; absorb: She is totally immersed in her law practice.

    3. to baptize by immersion.

    4. to embed; bury.

    -------------------------
     
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    People often forget immersion needs to balance with fun. Walking the same stretch of land again, and again (back-tracking) is realistic but not fun for most people.

    Hence, even OBlivion has fast travel.

    I doubt anyone can make walking the 1000th time from the bank to the tavern fun.

    I try to imagine your balance with fun when you walk in your funny game alone but you know even walking from the bank to tavern can be fun even 100000 times because there is actually other people around and you never know what they are up to.

     

    Not in a PvE game when all they can do is spam you with guild invite.

    It was never fun for me walking the 10000th time from the bank to the tavern.

    Well roleplaying games and immersive world,you just need better immersive RP games it seems.

     

    Or ... i just need those boring bits taken out, so i can focus on killing stuff, or other activities i deem fun.

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    People often forget immersion needs to balance with fun. Walking the same stretch of land again, and again (back-tracking) is realistic but not fun for most people.

    Hence, even OBlivion has fast travel.

    I doubt anyone can make walking the 1000th time from the bank to the tavern fun.

    I try to imagine your balance with fun when you walk in your funny game alone but you know even walking from the bank to tavern can be fun even 100000 times because there is actually other people around and you never know what they are up to.

     

    Not in a PvE game when all they can do is spam you with guild invite.

    It was never fun for me walking the 10000th time from the bank to the tavern.

    Well roleplaying games and immersive world,you just need better immersive RP games it seems.

     

    Or ... i just need those boring bits taken out, so i can focus on killing stuff, or other activities i deem fun.

    Too many features and creativity have already been removed from mmorpg's, thats why they are boring now. And you wanting to remove stuff from game others may find fun, is the exact reason mmorpg's suck today.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Onomas
     

    Too many features and creativity have already been removed from mmorpg's, thats why they are boring now. And you wanting to remove stuff from game others may find fun, is the exact reason mmorpg's suck today.

    Suck for you. Better games for many. Otherwise, why would the market be gorwing?

    And what are you dreaming? Many features are added ... LFD, LFR, cross realm matching, phasing .. the list goes on and on. You may not like them .. but they are new, and makes MMORPGs better games.

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