Originally posted by tabindex Poor people should spend their time figuring out how to stop being poor instead of playing games they can't afford. We need more games with the EQ legends server model (a server where rich people don't have to be around poor people).
This wrongly assume that affordability is the reason. The real reason is competition.
If i can have fun with a free game, why should i pay anything? It is about whether i feel i am gettting good value, not whether i have $15 in my wallet.
No. We should stop playing F2P because the bussiness model is inherently bad for gaming. It allows you to take shortcuts, aka cheating, if you pay money.
As a competetiver gamers we should reject such a notion completely.
Why are you playing MMO's if you want competitive gaming?
Because MMOs, without a cash shop and where everyone starts the same, can be competetive.
Granted we haven't had many of them lately but they used to be like that. Box price, sub fee and then it is all up to you. How skilled you are, how social you are and how persistent you are.
Originally posted by tabindex Ok. Replace poor with cheap.
I spend a lot more money on movies than on MMOs. Why? Because movies give me better entertainment value than shitty F2P MMOs.
So if a game is worth it, I dont mind spending money. However a game which gives the upper hand to whoever spends the most is not worth it. It's inherently flawed.
No. We should stop playing F2P because the bussiness model is inherently bad for gaming. It allows you to take shortcuts, aka cheating, if you pay money.
As a competetiver gamers we should reject such a notion completely.
Why are you playing MMO's if you want competitive gaming?
Because MMOs, without a cash shop and where everyone starts the same, can be competetive.
Granted we haven't had many of them lately but they used to be like that. Box price, sub fee and then it is all up to you. How skilled you are, how social you are and how persistent you are.
But now it's all: Show me the money!
WoW has some pretty competitive PVP and PVE, but I never personally thought MMO's had much to do with competition at all. I suppose it's human nature to want to be better than other people, but I've never felt compelled to compete at anything in an MMO. Competition in MMO's is also mainly a function of time, and I've never been willing to spend the massive amount of time to compete.
When I think of competitive gaming, I think of SC2 or CoD or LoL.
You want them to be produced with smaller budgets.
You want them all to be F2P at launch.
While #3 isn't necessarily bad (being able to try a product before paying is actually extremely good for gamers) the first two are really bad if you enjoy the genre.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
And anyone who pays for a lifetime subscription (200+ USD) should expect their investment to be a donation to the company.
Players like you have basically crippled the creative capacity of the industry. By demanding not to have a sub fee, you've forced developers and publishers to spend more time trying to figure out how to nickle and dime people for a profit; time which could have been spent on making the game fun.
You want them to be produced with smaller budgets.
You want them all to be F2P at launch.
While #3 isn't necessarily bad (being able to try a product before paying is actually extremely good for gamers) the first two are really bad if you enjoy the genre.
(1) is plain wrong and contradict data. Players is clearly shifting to F2P, and we see MORE MMORPGs to be released, not fewer.
(2) is correct, probably on average. However, while per game, there is less content (because of a smaller per game budget), there are so many games that it is moot. The amount of F2P game content is so huge that no one, at least not me, can consume it all in a reasonable time. (2) is only a bad thing if you want to stick with one game, and certainly many do not.
(3) is correct, and like you say, not necessarily bad.
And anyone who pays for a lifetime subscription (200+ USD) should expect their investment to be a donation to the company.
Players like you have basically crippled the creative capacity of the industry. By demanding not to have a sub fee, you've forced developers and publishers to spend more time trying to figure out how to nickle and dime people for a profit; time which could have been spent on making the game fun.
As if i owe anything to the industry. If devs cannot make a game fun for me, i won't even be spending time with it.
So yeah, the fact that many F2P is fun to me .. means that whatever they spend to nickle & dime people don't affect me at all. So tell me, why should i care?
Personally, I've tried many F2P MMO's as well subscription based. If the pay model doesn't work, it's because the game was lacking something. It means the game missed the mark. People don't mind a sub if the game is that good. The problem is the games released recently have been sub par.
The F2P model is a cash grab, imho. Games designed as such, in my eyes, are admitting by declaration that they are going to release a mediocre game.
You want them to be produced with smaller budgets.
You want them all to be F2P at launch.
While #3 isn't necessarily bad (being able to try a product before paying is actually extremely good for gamers) the first two are really bad if you enjoy the genre.
1. I don't think fewer MMOs is bad for the genre, considering the current muck we've got it. Go through the list of games on this site and tell me how many are actually good or worth playing. It might be just me, but I don't think the number is high.
2. I don't think MMORPGs are for small companies. They cost too much to make and they can't support them the way a larger company can. We've got endless Asian games that are filled with gold farmers, grinding, and poorly designed systems. I want them to be produced with larger budgets. At the very least, I want the game to be efficiently made. I don't need voice overs, I don't need million dollar movies or cutscenes. I need a game worth playing. This requires a large budget. This is why I support a subscription model. You support the company and players are all on equal footing. No pay to win, no suggestive or coercive cash shops. You sub, the game makes money, and we all go home happy.
3. I want to be able to try the game and see if it's worth playing. I want to get past the hype and doctored videos and experience for myself.
Originally posted by Divion If on the game's launch anniversy it goes Free to Play, then you lost EVERYTHING you invested, as a new player can spend the treshold amount, and have basiclly the same account status as you, minus the progression you made.
So...after paying for and watching a movie I would 'lose everything'?..
You payed for fun and you got fun. You lost nothing.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
1. I don't think fewer MMOs is bad for the genre, considering the current muck we've got it. Go through the list of games on this site and tell me how many are actually good or worth playing. It might be just me, but I don't think the number is high.
2. I don't think MMORPGs are for small companies. They cost too much to make and they can't support them the way a larger company can. We've got endless Asian games that are filled with gold farmers, grinding, and poorly designed systems. I want them to be produced with larger budgets. At the very least, I want the game to be efficiently made. I don't need voice overs, I don't need million dollar movies or cutscenes. I need a game worth playing. This requires a large budget. This is why I support a subscription model. You support the company and players are all on equal footing. No pay to win, no suggestive or coercive cash shops. You sub, the game makes money, and we all go home happy.
3. I want to be able to try the game and see if it's worth playing. I want to get past the hype and doctored videos and experience for myself.
1. 80% of everything is crap. Fewer MMOs means fewer bad MMOs but it also means fewer good ones.
2. MMORPGs are hard to produce with smaller budgets. That compounds problem #1 of course, and conflicts with your desire to have them produced with larger budgets. Although I'm not sure I'd say a game worth playing requires a larger budget. A fantastic but small-budget MMO is definitely possible; but it's going to be a different type of game than a typical content-centric AAA MMORPG.
3. Right that's the strength of the business model for sure: try before you buy, and don't reward companies for marketing but for actual gameplay.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
(1) is plain wrong and contradict data. Players is clearly shifting to F2P, and we see MORE MMORPGs to be released, not fewer.
Um, no.
Let's say 20% of MMORPGs continue to release as P2P.
Let's say somehow this thread convinces everyone to stop buying MMORPGs while they're P2P, waiting til they're F2P.
Now you'll have 2-3 MMORPGs which cost $100+ million to produce which sell nothing at launch. These games wouldn't have the funds remaining after massively failed launches to make the switch to F2P, nor would they see a business reason to make the switch because they have a game with no sales.
Players are shifting to F2P, but that doesn't contradict the fact that if players quit buying P2P games at launch, cold turkey, the MMO industry will feel that pretty harshly.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Have any of the p2p games that have gone free to play switched over and not given the sub players something that compensates them for being there all that time ?
When tera switched what they gave the founders if you were to buy it from the cash shop after would be worth more than $60 ( well it would cost more :P ) And most of it was pretty nice. I sure didn't feel screwed over by that transition and the game was better off free to play.
Should every human (who does so) stop growing poodles and have parrots instead? Or should we replace pink with blue just because pink is new blue?
Incorrect question, I suppose. As one author mentioned - games are for fun, they are to entertain you. To make you feel powerfull armada Admiral crushing any unwise solar system who dares to oppose your occupa...liberation. Or mighty Hero with Hammer of Destruction sending hordes of evil back to hell. Or maybe a stalker that stabs other player and so goes on killing spree unnoticed, leaving corpses and "me was here, pwnd noobz" notes.
1) Those who subscribe keep game going alive and they (mostly) know they are spending only 15$ a month. Those who play free model are paying either with their time or by microtransactions that could be more expensive than a sub.
2) subscribers usually get some bonuses that cnanot be bought in any store, be it Mighty Steed of Slaying or Yoda's reserve Lightsaber.
3) some games (like WoW, Camelot Unchained, as far as their devs are telling) would never be free. You wanna play, you got to pay...or wait for eternity.
Therefore, to tell "you are losing on box purchase and subs" is a logical mistake. While purchasing a box may be considered as a loss, subbing is not. By subbing, I show support to the game and I am contributing to its life. If I sub, it's thanks to me and many many others that this nice town stands, this colourfull NPC gives quest and developers can maintain a game. Where there is a loss?
Answering to OP question: no, we shouldn't wait untill games goes f2p.
However BioShock doesn't require a subscription to play, and it has a definitive conclusions.
In the world of P2P MMORPGS, if you buy a box ~ 60 bucks, and sub for a year (11 months paid, 1 month free) That is 165 bucks @ 15 dollars a month + box costs of an average 60 bucks, so 225 dollars to play the game for a year.
If on the game's launch anniversy it goes Free to Play, then you lost EVERYTHING you invested, as a new player can spend the treshold amount, and have basiclly the same account status as you, minus the progression you made.
You are comparing apples to waffles.
It is only true for EAWARE and SWTOR. people who bought DCUO box edition/CE/DE/DDE and paid at least 6 months worth of sub was given the opportunity to claim lifetime sub within a period of time, they don't need to pay for anything anymore, not even the latest dlc; others who played only 1st month or 2/3 month and then quit were given the opportunity to pay an onetime 12 month worth of sub price or 120$ and those who took the opportunity gets everything and those who did not take the opportunity they get full access to basic game and they don't have any restrictions like f2p or premium account but they still have to buy each dlc. by the time eq2 became f2p they already had like 8 expansions and everyone who bought all the expansions got the chance to claim lifetime sub just like dcuo.
Not every company is theiving bastard like EA and EAWARE.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Comments
This wrongly assume that affordability is the reason. The real reason is competition.
If i can have fun with a free game, why should i pay anything? It is about whether i feel i am gettting good value, not whether i have $15 in my wallet.
Because MMOs, without a cash shop and where everyone starts the same, can be competetive.
Granted we haven't had many of them lately but they used to be like that. Box price, sub fee and then it is all up to you. How skilled you are, how social you are and how persistent you are.
But now it's all: Show me the money!
My gaming blog
There is no reason to pay a cent if free gets you the same fun. I would call it "not being suckered", but "cheap" will work too.
I spend a lot more money on movies than on MMOs. Why? Because movies give me better entertainment value than shitty F2P MMOs.
So if a game is worth it, I dont mind spending money. However a game which gives the upper hand to whoever spends the most is not worth it. It's inherently flawed.
My gaming blog
WoW has some pretty competitive PVP and PVE, but I never personally thought MMO's had much to do with competition at all. I suppose it's human nature to want to be better than other people, but I've never felt compelled to compete at anything in an MMO. Competition in MMO's is also mainly a function of time, and I've never been willing to spend the massive amount of time to compete.
When I think of competitive gaming, I think of SC2 or CoD or LoL.
MMOs are epleen games (not truly skill competition). Otherwise, gearscore, wow-heroes, and stuff like that will not be so popular.
You should do this if:
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Players like you have basically crippled the creative capacity of the industry. By demanding not to have a sub fee, you've forced developers and publishers to spend more time trying to figure out how to nickle and dime people for a profit; time which could have been spent on making the game fun.
You make me like charity
(1) is plain wrong and contradict data. Players is clearly shifting to F2P, and we see MORE MMORPGs to be released, not fewer.
(2) is correct, probably on average. However, while per game, there is less content (because of a smaller per game budget), there are so many games that it is moot. The amount of F2P game content is so huge that no one, at least not me, can consume it all in a reasonable time. (2) is only a bad thing if you want to stick with one game, and certainly many do not.
(3) is correct, and like you say, not necessarily bad.
As if i owe anything to the industry. If devs cannot make a game fun for me, i won't even be spending time with it.
So yeah, the fact that many F2P is fun to me .. means that whatever they spend to nickle & dime people don't affect me at all. So tell me, why should i care?
The F2P model is a cash grab, imho. Games designed as such, in my eyes, are admitting by declaration that they are going to release a mediocre game.
I've got high hopes for 2 pay models to be released that will hopefully bring us back to premium AAA gaming. Everquest Next & FFXIV ARR©.
Cheers all.
Hmm f2p games are a cash grab, despite that you do not need to pay any money up front.
P2p games require payment upfront and are not a cash grab. Interesting.
No box and F2P to a certain lvl.
1 week trial wasn't good , trial should be limit of contents , not limit of play time
1. I don't think fewer MMOs is bad for the genre, considering the current muck we've got it. Go through the list of games on this site and tell me how many are actually good or worth playing. It might be just me, but I don't think the number is high.
2. I don't think MMORPGs are for small companies. They cost too much to make and they can't support them the way a larger company can. We've got endless Asian games that are filled with gold farmers, grinding, and poorly designed systems. I want them to be produced with larger budgets. At the very least, I want the game to be efficiently made. I don't need voice overs, I don't need million dollar movies or cutscenes. I need a game worth playing. This requires a large budget. This is why I support a subscription model. You support the company and players are all on equal footing. No pay to win, no suggestive or coercive cash shops. You sub, the game makes money, and we all go home happy.
3. I want to be able to try the game and see if it's worth playing. I want to get past the hype and doctored videos and experience for myself.
So...after paying for and watching a movie I would 'lose everything'?..
You payed for fun and you got fun. You lost nothing.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Really?
F2P has so far "grabbed" zero of my cash.
P2P has so far "grabbed" quite a bit of my cash before i quit for good.
So .. which model is the cash grab? The one which got money from me, or the one that did not?
hmm who says epleen is evil? I said they are popular, and nothing else.
In fact, gearscore is a good tool. You get to know if the guy going into the dungeon with you won't cut it with his gear, and you can kick him fast.
1. 80% of everything is crap. Fewer MMOs means fewer bad MMOs but it also means fewer good ones.
2. MMORPGs are hard to produce with smaller budgets. That compounds problem #1 of course, and conflicts with your desire to have them produced with larger budgets. Although I'm not sure I'd say a game worth playing requires a larger budget. A fantastic but small-budget MMO is definitely possible; but it's going to be a different type of game than a typical content-centric AAA MMORPG.
3. Right that's the strength of the business model for sure: try before you buy, and don't reward companies for marketing but for actual gameplay.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Um, no.
Let's say 20% of MMORPGs continue to release as P2P.
Let's say somehow this thread convinces everyone to stop buying MMORPGs while they're P2P, waiting til they're F2P.
Now you'll have 2-3 MMORPGs which cost $100+ million to produce which sell nothing at launch. These games wouldn't have the funds remaining after massively failed launches to make the switch to F2P, nor would they see a business reason to make the switch because they have a game with no sales.
Players are shifting to F2P, but that doesn't contradict the fact that if players quit buying P2P games at launch, cold turkey, the MMO industry will feel that pretty harshly.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Have any of the p2p games that have gone free to play switched over and not given the sub players something that compensates them for being there all that time ?
When tera switched what they gave the founders if you were to buy it from the cash shop after would be worth more than $60 ( well it would cost more :P ) And most of it was pretty nice. I sure didn't feel screwed over by that transition and the game was better off free to play.
Should every human (who does so) stop growing poodles and have parrots instead? Or should we replace pink with blue just because pink is new blue?
Incorrect question, I suppose. As one author mentioned - games are for fun, they are to entertain you. To make you feel powerfull armada Admiral crushing any unwise solar system who dares to oppose your occupa...liberation. Or mighty Hero with Hammer of Destruction sending hordes of evil back to hell. Or maybe a stalker that stabs other player and so goes on killing spree unnoticed, leaving corpses and "me was here, pwnd noobz" notes.
1) Those who subscribe keep game going alive and they (mostly) know they are spending only 15$ a month. Those who play free model are paying either with their time or by microtransactions that could be more expensive than a sub.
2) subscribers usually get some bonuses that cnanot be bought in any store, be it Mighty Steed of Slaying or Yoda's reserve Lightsaber.
3) some games (like WoW, Camelot Unchained, as far as their devs are telling) would never be free. You wanna play, you got to pay...or wait for eternity.
Therefore, to tell "you are losing on box purchase and subs" is a logical mistake. While purchasing a box may be considered as a loss, subbing is not. By subbing, I show support to the game and I am contributing to its life. If I sub, it's thanks to me and many many others that this nice town stands, this colourfull NPC gives quest and developers can maintain a game. Where there is a loss?
Answering to OP question: no, we shouldn't wait untill games goes f2p.
http://www.mmoblogg.wordpress.com
It is only true for EAWARE and SWTOR. people who bought DCUO box edition/CE/DE/DDE and paid at least 6 months worth of sub was given the opportunity to claim lifetime sub within a period of time, they don't need to pay for anything anymore, not even the latest dlc; others who played only 1st month or 2/3 month and then quit were given the opportunity to pay an onetime 12 month worth of sub price or 120$ and those who took the opportunity gets everything and those who did not take the opportunity they get full access to basic game and they don't have any restrictions like f2p or premium account but they still have to buy each dlc. by the time eq2 became f2p they already had like 8 expansions and everyone who bought all the expansions got the chance to claim lifetime sub just like dcuo.
Not every company is theiving bastard like EA and EAWARE.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.