Originally posted by Filterheadz Sandbox games are dead ... wow and the 90% of the gaming market out there has done way to much damage...
Damn I just wasted 2 years folllowing and been involved with The Repopulation one of the most anticipated games of 2013.
Planet Explorers KS took 137k and hit Greenlight in record time with 78% up vote.
Yeah think I will now delete both accounts as thanks to your sage wisdom these games are dead as obviously non linear based game play is a dead duck, but wait isn't Skyrim a sandbox especially modded on PC yep better delete one of the biggest games ever to hit the PC don't want any of that sandbox in my PC as it's as dead as a dodo.
2013 is going to be the worst year for MMOs. The problem is the current return to Sandbox is trying to use old school Sandbox rules. Developers do not understand that will not work. EQNEXT and TITAN will change that in 2014.
Are you talking about Blizzard's next MMO? Where on earth did you hear that it would be a sanbox, or varriation of?
I heard it would be a loot centric raid endgame über themepark MMO, it will be a WoW killer.
I think it's just that after a few expensive failures, publishers realised copying WoW won't turn them into Blizzards, so they're looking for alternative ways to make MMOs. Customers are either tired of WoW or play WoW, but that's not new.
Sandbox = more diversity = a good thing. Themepark AAA one to rule them all is really bad for a lot of players even if many more still find that a suitable design.
Darkfall UW
Black Desert
Greed Monger
Project Theralon
Repopulation
Archage
Starforge
Origins of Malu
Albion Online
EQ Next
Also to categorise according to AAA Publisher and Smaller Independent Developer and the type of sandbox emphasis. Also different ""MMO models"":
Shroud of The Avatar - Portalarium Inc. (Richard Garriot)
I think a lot of MMO players underestimate the difficulty of setting up and running a decent sandbox game/world. And you have to plan expenses for the amount of players you will likely attract. Some of the sandbox templates are very niche in nature. Not going to draw in tons of people, despite what you may hear.
Of course, the more different styles of sandbox there are, the more likely any individual will be able to find something they really like. But expectations out of the gate may be a little too high.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Put together the little that is known of Titan like the facts that they will have a dual life plus that housing will be in games with vendors.
Then take the fact that EQ2 and WOW are both themepark and designed the same way in 2004 its not hard to image or figure out that Blizzard and SOE are going to be releasing the same type of MMO as they did before in 2004. Just think about it. They know that Themepark will not work.
Lol, im sorry, but that is wishfull thinking at its finest....literally nothing released or rumared thus far implies it will be a sandbox, or even close to one.
BTW, the only "housing" they even mentioned is "guild" housing, which also does not indicate sandbox in the least.....Rift has player housing, and is by no means a related to a sandbox.
This ^
Blizzard's legacy has been built off of their ability to copy other games, and polish the crap out of them. Thanks to WoW, they've essentially killed most of their pool to steal from. I don't think we're really going to see much original from WoW on the MMO front (which is what the genre needs). Heck, look at their last major announcement. People got all stoked for a new IP, and what they got was a Magic: The Gathering knock off centered around WoW.
Thats why I am betting Titan will take a lot of EQNext's ideas and do them in their own way. Thats exactly what happened in 2004 with EQ2 and WoW. Its not hard to figure out they will do what other MMO games are doing just better. What is the MMO genera doing now? SandboxHybrid Sandbox Themepark mmo. What will Blizzard do, copy them and do it better than the rest. Its hard to see them copying themselves.
Originally posted by Filterheadz Sandbox games are dead ... wow and the 90% of the gaming market out there has done way to much damage...
Damn I just wasted 2 years following and been involved with The Repopulation one of the most anticipated games of 2013.
Planet Explorers KS took 137k and hit Greenlight in record time with 78% up vote.
Yeah think I will now delete both accounts as thanks to your sage wisdom these games are dead as obviously non linear based game play is a dead duck, but wait isn't Skyrim a sandbox especially modded on PC yep better delete one of the biggest games ever to hit the PC don't want any of that sandbox in my PC as it's as dead as a dodo.
Oh please stop tickleling me... do tell 1 just 1 succesful sandbox game other then eve online over the past years ?
Right... i know nostalgia will kick in for some people and i DO HOPE we do get a decent sandbox out there but as long as the leading gaming market promotes > press 1 + 2 + 3 and u win ... not having high hopes is what i am trying to say.
Actually the only reason we have not seen many Mo sand box games is because they take ages to make and with as you say WOW plagiarizing the genre,publishers saw this as the way to make money and with later F2P this method works really well as you can milk any poor sod dry with a cash shop or DLC.
Now we have smaller devs owning thier own IP's and taking their time as they are not rushed by the suits wanting the game out of the door making money, further more most if not all have integrity and will not kill their dream with a rip off cash shop as they have garnered trust over years with a community.
It was only after SOE killed the original SWG and lost most of it's player base,that was a major factor in the sandbox Mo dieing a death and that is why even now the biggest post on the Repop forums is the SWG refugee thread people want that style back,I missed out on all that as I was in Eve for 3 years running a corp but having revisited SWG and wished I had been in SWG pre-CU as it was the defining game of it's generation but was killed through greed and no concern or respect for it's customers.
So if you include SWG-pre CU at the time was the most successfull Mo sandbox,but as I said Skyrim is a sandbox just like Oblivion and Morrowind three of the most noted games in history and all Sandbox based so pretty successfull in my book.
I think a lot of MMO players underestimate the difficulty of setting up and running a decent sandbox game/world. And you have to plan expenses for the amount of players you will likely attract. Some of the sandbox templates are very niche in nature. Not going to draw in tons of people, despite what you may hear.
Of course, the more different styles of sandbox there are, the more likely any individual will be able to find something they really like. But expectations out of the gate may be a little too high.
No the problem with Sandbox MMOs is they keep trying to take the old SWG, UO, EVE rulesets that do not work well for casual players. Or they do what Mortal Online has done and make them harder core rulesets. No one has tried to modernize the Sandbox Rule Set. Dont believe me look ar Archage. FFA PVP with FFA looting of a body on death. Even if its not full loot it still old hardcore rules that casual players will not play by. Its not hard to see.
Put together the little that is known of Titan like the facts that they will have a dual life plus that housing will be in games with vendors.
Then take the fact that EQ2 and WOW are both themepark and designed the same way in 2004 its not hard to image or figure out that Blizzard and SOE are going to be releasing the same type of MMO as they did before in 2004. Just think about it. They know that Themepark will not work.
Lol, im sorry, but that is wishfull thinking at its finest....literally nothing released or rumared thus far implies it will be a sandbox, or even close to one.
BTW, the only "housing" they even mentioned is "guild" housing, which also does not indicate sandbox in the least.....Rift has player housing, and is by no means a related to a sandbox.
This ^
Blizzard's legacy has been built off of their ability to copy other games, and polish the crap out of them. Thanks to WoW, they've essentially killed most of their pool to steal from. I don't think we're really going to see much original from WoW on the MMO front (which is what the genre needs). Heck, look at their last major announcement. People got all stoked for a new IP, and what they got was a Magic: The Gathering knock off centered around WoW.
Why would anyone have been excited for a TiTan announcement at the GDC? Blizzard literally said "We will be announcing something new, and it wont be Titan"....then a bunch of ppl complained that they got their hopes up for nothing once it wasnt titan that was announced lol
Put together the little that is known of Titan like the facts that they will have a dual life plus that housing will be in games with vendors.
Then take the fact that EQ2 and WOW are both themepark and designed the same way in 2004 its not hard to image or figure out that Blizzard and SOE are going to be releasing the same type of MMO as they did before in 2004. Just think about it. They know that Themepark will not work.
Lol, im sorry, but that is wishfull thinking at its finest....literally nothing released or rumared thus far implies it will be a sandbox, or even close to one.
BTW, the only "housing" they even mentioned is "guild" housing, which also does not indicate sandbox in the least.....Rift has player housing, and is by no means a related to a sandbox.
This ^
Blizzard's legacy has been built off of their ability to copy other games, and polish the crap out of them. Thanks to WoW, they've essentially killed most of their pool to steal from. I don't think we're really going to see much original from WoW on the MMO front (which is what the genre needs). Heck, look at their last major announcement. People got all stoked for a new IP, and what they got was a Magic: The Gathering knock off centered around WoW.
Thats why I am betting Titan will take a lot of EQNext's ideas and do them in their own way. Thats exactly what happened in 2004 with EQ2 and WoW. Its not hard to figure out they will do what other MMO games are doing just better. What is the MMO genera doing now? SandboxHybrid Sandbox Themepark mmo. What will Blizzard do, copy them and do it better than the rest. Its hard to see them copying themselves.
To imply EQ2 or EQNext are in the same market position as EQ1 was when WoW was released, is quite frankly, the most far fetched thing I have ever read. You are literally ignoring everything that has been released and rumared thus far about Titan, and completely basing your view off of hugely far reaching self conclusions.
Blizzard's legacy has been built off of their ability to copy other games, and polish the crap out of them. Thanks to WoW, they've essentially killed most of their pool to steal from. I don't think we're really going to see much original from WoW on the MMO front (which is what the genre needs). Heck, look at their last major announcement. People got all stoked for a new IP, and what they got was a Magic: The Gathering knock off centered around WoW.
They can copy non-MMOs. They are good at making fun, non-original games.
Playing a Sandbox MMO is more abot the players and the time they have to play them..
I love Sandbox MMO's where you can be what you want like in UO I could get by being a trader didn't have to get my hands dirty and fight monsters (although I did) the idea that you can make a life for your character is very appealing however that takes time.. Many people who play games want a quick escape something they can imerse themselves in at a moments notice and have some fun.. Sandboxes are not always "fun" for people because you have to work at them to make your own fun..
Honestly, I think the entire MMO environment is drying up. Themepark games are losing subscribers because of the massive selection of similar games. There are a few sandpark games out there (like the joke known as Fallen Earth) but not enough to command a serious percentage of the playerbase. Many of the sandbox games out there are still suffering, but not nearly as bad as most themeparks (ATITD is lucky to have 500 players online at once, Eve is slowly losing players but that may change with the next expansion).
I dearly pray that some good sandbox, or even sandpark games come out in the near future. Right now, I'm watching Wildstar, and a few indie productions as well. I hope we can revive the spark that made MMOs great, even as I know that we can never return to the 'glory days' of MMOs.
Originally posted by Filterheadz Sandbox games are dead ... wow and the 90% of the gaming market out there has done way to much damage...
No game has "damaged" sandboxes. Players just want games, and sandboxes were worse games.
Anyone who makes a fun (game-like) sandbox will do quite well. But a hollow world is not a game (and sometimes isn't even much of a sandbox, if there isn't any "sand" for players to manipulate) and people are far less interested in that type of experience than a content-filled game.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The problem about sandbox is that is is just a type of mmorpg. Like 2d fighting games vs 3d fighting games.
So making a sandbox game is not enought, because a sandbox can be alot of different things.
Developers make just few sandboxes games. And if they make one you hate, you will need to wait alot of time for another.
Also if they make one, the developers will not get all this userbase that is asking for sandboxes games, because many will not like the game. Some of those develoepers will stop to develop the game and quit with the not so huge userbase and the guys that liked this specific sandbox game will not be able to play it anymore.
Being a sandbox does not make a game good; just like being a themepark does not make a game bad.
What I prefer are themeparks with user generated content. The foundry idea from Neverwinter is great in that respect.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
I have a feeling that many people will be greatly disappointed with what many of upcoming sandbox games have to offer - as I noticed that many people don't read and research exactly what those games will be about. I am talking about both sandbox players crowd and themepark players crowd.
I know SOE talk about EQnext being the next big sandbox, but am also certain that after Aug 1st, or after release if they do not show much from the game, there will be people posting on these forums about broken promises...alone the fact that there will be raids, I guess, is enough for some to dismiss it as a sandbox.
am expecting more themepark from EQnext than sandbox, but will see....Aug 1st is only too far away : P
What is the currently acceptable definition of Sandbox?
I mean, I've heard several different ones. The two most common are:
No guided experience with locations and adventures/quests to do there, but no hand holding. Sometimes you see no fast travel or no maps either.
OR
Nothing in the world but players and nodes to make rocks (or whatever) and build everything in the world. Sometimes with FFA FL PKing involved.
And most also denegrate anything else as a carebear themepark.
I mean, under those two definitions is a LOT of room.
For instance, in the first case, EQ (1) was a sandbox. It certainly (in the beginning) didn't lead you anywhere. You had to look that up online. In essence, this is what everyone is going to do anyway, with that version of Sandbox.
Of course, EQ1's problem was forced grouping, which drove players away to any game that allowed solo play.
Oh please stop tickleling me... do tell 1 just 1 succesful sandbox game other then eve online over the past years ?
Free Realms
Puzzle Pirates
Ultima Online
A Tale in the Desert
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
As long as we get a few sandbox games that are more about building sandcastles than they are about kicking sand in other players' faces, I'll be happy.
Comments
I heard it would be a loot centric raid endgame über themepark MMO, it will be a WoW killer.
I think it's just that after a few expensive failures, publishers realised copying WoW won't turn them into Blizzards, so they're looking for alternative ways to make MMOs. Customers are either tired of WoW or play WoW, but that's not new.
Sandbox = more diversity = a good thing. Themepark AAA one to rule them all is really bad for a lot of players even if many more still find that a suitable design.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
I think a lot of MMO players underestimate the difficulty of setting up and running a decent sandbox game/world. And you have to plan expenses for the amount of players you will likely attract. Some of the sandbox templates are very niche in nature. Not going to draw in tons of people, despite what you may hear.
Of course, the more different styles of sandbox there are, the more likely any individual will be able to find something they really like. But expectations out of the gate may be a little too high.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
waiting for archeage.
lets see
Thats why I am betting Titan will take a lot of EQNext's ideas and do them in their own way. Thats exactly what happened in 2004 with EQ2 and WoW. Its not hard to figure out they will do what other MMO games are doing just better. What is the MMO genera doing now? SandboxHybrid Sandbox Themepark mmo. What will Blizzard do, copy them and do it better than the rest. Its hard to see them copying themselves.
Actually the only reason we have not seen many Mo sand box games is because they take ages to make and with as you say WOW plagiarizing the genre,publishers saw this as the way to make money and with later F2P this method works really well as you can milk any poor sod dry with a cash shop or DLC.
Now we have smaller devs owning thier own IP's and taking their time as they are not rushed by the suits wanting the game out of the door making money, further more most if not all have integrity and will not kill their dream with a rip off cash shop as they have garnered trust over years with a community.
It was only after SOE killed the original SWG and lost most of it's player base,that was a major factor in the sandbox Mo dieing a death and that is why even now the biggest post on the Repop forums is the SWG refugee thread people want that style back,I missed out on all that as I was in Eve for 3 years running a corp but having revisited SWG and wished I had been in SWG pre-CU as it was the defining game of it's generation but was killed through greed and no concern or respect for it's customers.
So if you include SWG-pre CU at the time was the most successfull Mo sandbox,but as I said Skyrim is a sandbox just like Oblivion and Morrowind three of the most noted games in history and all Sandbox based so pretty successfull in my book.
No the problem with Sandbox MMOs is they keep trying to take the old SWG, UO, EVE rulesets that do not work well for casual players. Or they do what Mortal Online has done and make them harder core rulesets. No one has tried to modernize the Sandbox Rule Set. Dont believe me look ar Archage. FFA PVP with FFA looting of a body on death. Even if its not full loot it still old hardcore rules that casual players will not play by. Its not hard to see.
Why would anyone have been excited for a TiTan announcement at the GDC? Blizzard literally said "We will be announcing something new, and it wont be Titan"....then a bunch of ppl complained that they got their hopes up for nothing once it wasnt titan that was announced lol
To imply EQ2 or EQNext are in the same market position as EQ1 was when WoW was released, is quite frankly, the most far fetched thing I have ever read. You are literally ignoring everything that has been released and rumared thus far about Titan, and completely basing your view off of hugely far reaching self conclusions.
They can copy non-MMOs. They are good at making fun, non-original games.
Playing a Sandbox MMO is more abot the players and the time they have to play them..
I love Sandbox MMO's where you can be what you want like in UO I could get by being a trader didn't have to get my hands dirty and fight monsters (although I did) the idea that you can make a life for your character is very appealing however that takes time.. Many people who play games want a quick escape something they can imerse themselves in at a moments notice and have some fun.. Sandboxes are not always "fun" for people because you have to work at them to make your own fun..
Honestly, I think the entire MMO environment is drying up. Themepark games are losing subscribers because of the massive selection of similar games. There are a few sandpark games out there (like the joke known as Fallen Earth) but not enough to command a serious percentage of the playerbase. Many of the sandbox games out there are still suffering, but not nearly as bad as most themeparks (ATITD is lucky to have 500 players online at once, Eve is slowly losing players but that may change with the next expansion).
I dearly pray that some good sandbox, or even sandpark games come out in the near future. Right now, I'm watching Wildstar, and a few indie productions as well. I hope we can revive the spark that made MMOs great, even as I know that we can never return to the 'glory days' of MMOs.
No game has "damaged" sandboxes. Players just want games, and sandboxes were worse games.
Anyone who makes a fun (game-like) sandbox will do quite well. But a hollow world is not a game (and sometimes isn't even much of a sandbox, if there isn't any "sand" for players to manipulate) and people are far less interested in that type of experience than a content-filled game.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The problem about sandbox is that is is just a type of mmorpg. Like 2d fighting games vs 3d fighting games.
So making a sandbox game is not enought, because a sandbox can be alot of different things.
Developers make just few sandboxes games. And if they make one you hate, you will need to wait alot of time for another.
Also if they make one, the developers will not get all this userbase that is asking for sandboxes games, because many will not like the game. Some of those develoepers will stop to develop the game and quit with the not so huge userbase and the guys that liked this specific sandbox game will not be able to play it anymore.
Being a sandbox does not make a game good; just like being a themepark does not make a game bad.
What I prefer are themeparks with user generated content. The foundry idea from Neverwinter is great in that respect.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
Thanks,
Mike
Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com
I don't mind the concept in principle, I've just never seen it implemented in an appealling way.
I know SOE talk about EQnext being the next big sandbox, but am also certain that after Aug 1st, or after release if they do not show much from the game, there will be people posting on these forums about broken promises...alone the fact that there will be raids, I guess, is enough for some to dismiss it as a sandbox.
am expecting more themepark from EQnext than sandbox, but will see....Aug 1st is only too far away : P
I'm never straight on this:
What is the currently acceptable definition of Sandbox?
I mean, I've heard several different ones. The two most common are:
No guided experience with locations and adventures/quests to do there, but no hand holding. Sometimes you see no fast travel or no maps either.
OR
Nothing in the world but players and nodes to make rocks (or whatever) and build everything in the world. Sometimes with FFA FL PKing involved.
And most also denegrate anything else as a carebear themepark.
I mean, under those two definitions is a LOT of room.
For instance, in the first case, EQ (1) was a sandbox. It certainly (in the beginning) didn't lead you anywhere. You had to look that up online. In essence, this is what everyone is going to do anyway, with that version of Sandbox.
Of course, EQ1's problem was forced grouping, which drove players away to any game that allowed solo play.
Free Realms
Puzzle Pirates
Ultima Online
A Tale in the Desert
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Let me Google that for you.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
As long as we get a few sandbox games that are more about building sandcastles than they are about kicking sand in other players' faces, I'll be happy.