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Encouraged Discrimination?

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  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Amjoco
    Originally posted by Amjoco
    I'm just now looking into this game. I'm somewhat confused on gear and the "foundry" system. What keeps someone from making a mission and adding epic loot on a very simple level? Is there a requirement for the author to achieve before developing a mission? Sorry for the dumb question. 

    Anyone plz? I

    you can't assign loot in the foundry its automatic based on how hard the encounter is.. you can set how hard mobs are in the foundry like easy medium hard and such then the game automatically assigns loot

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • birdycephonbirdycephon Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 1,314Member
    Look at it this way, its better than getting all set up and ready to roll, only to find out the "tank" is made of glass. And believe me, as a healer, I've had to deal with plenty of glass tanks.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,481Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vannor

    It can be bad for the community that ignores it. For those that don't ignore it, it ensures there is nothing the argue about.

    Gearscores came into MMOs because everyone was checking each others equipment, arguing about it and ruining their own and everyone elses fun.

    A gearscrore does this: Strong enough for this content? Yep.. No argument. Too weak for this content? Nope.. No argument.

    It saves time and arguments.

    Some people trying to do content they shouldn't be doing might get hurt feelings if they get kicked from a group.. but at the end of the day.. they wouldn't be hurt if they paid attention to their gearscore and stopped trying to do stuff they shouldn't be doing.

     There are subjective scoring systems and interpretted numbers.  IF YOU SAY Dungeon X needs GS of 250> that doesn't mean that someone can't do it with GS240.  OBVIOUSLY player skill can affect the results.  Bad player with great gear can do badly, good player with OK gear will do fine, ANY PLAYER with horrible gear shouldn't be able to do it.

    There are other things:  Overgearing.  You know that Dungeon X needs GS250 but you require 300 because you want to do the 15 minute run.  How about Dungeon scalling:  If you overgear, you get less loot?  Would you be happy with that?

    When I left wow, the Lich King Raid came out.  I was undergeared but was taking on the first boss as a lot of people were doing and getting the rep ring. There were tons of pubs doing that.  Then suddenly, after enough people got gear from the first boss, the GS level was set at the first boss gear.  I wasn't lucky enough to have an item due to not winning loot rolls but yet was prevented from going on due to GS.  IF I had the item, I would have been able to.  Kind of BS in my.

    Let's face facts, the vast majority of people when they get the power they will eliminate people from groups.  They are the kids who didn't get to sit at the popular table in school and now is their chance to lord over others.  Not all but some.  If you are blindly following the GS and not the player, you just might be one of those people. 

    I quit wow at that point. Having been around since vanilla and part of one of the top guilds on the server.

  • fantasyfreak112fantasyfreak112 Orange County, CAPosts: 499Member
    I found Neverwinter to be way too easy and simple to warrant any sort of gear check. You don't even have to pursue gear in this game, they just throw it at you constantly.
  • KarahandrasKarahandras Sible HedinghamPosts: 1,676Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by psiic

    You know I personally am an old school gamer. 

     

    I was using my head and working out raid tactics for 72 man epic boss take downs back in Everquest, and we NEVER even NEEDED pvp meters, much less gearscores.

    All we needed was our brains, creativity, and tactics. We worked with what we had, and we included ALL of our guildies and friends. We NEVER turned anyone away because they did not have the right gear.

     

    This whole epeen elitist gearscore bullshit evolved with and for the " kindergarten " gamers. This whole new generation of gamerwannabes that emerged with WoW. Those players that are too stupid and or lazy to think for themselves.  You know the ones I mean those players who can't even decide for themselves what skills to load they have to wait for some equally retarded epeenist to post a build for them. The same players too brain-dead to even step off the glowing sparkly path even if it means walking past five treasure chests sitting just out of reach.

     

    Frankly I am disqusted by players that insist this is a tool they need, but I am not surprised at all that the game devs think their players are so stupid that they can not play the game without it.

    It becomes more obvious every day that game developers think all gamers are morons and maybe we are, after all we keep buying any crap they wrap in a pretty wrapper.

    image

  • birdycephonbirdycephon Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 1,314Member
    Originally posted by waynejr2

    Originally posted by Vannor
    It can be bad for the community that ignores it. For those that don't ignore it, it ensures there is nothing the argue about. Gearscores came into MMOs because everyone was checking each others equipment, arguing about it and ruining their own and everyone elses fun. A gearscrore does this: Strong enough for this content? Yep.. No argument. Too weak for this content? Nope.. No argument. It saves time and arguments. Some people trying to do content they shouldn't be doing might get hurt feelings if they get kicked from a group.. but at the end of the day.. they wouldn't be hurt if they paid attention to their gearscore and stopped trying to do stuff they shouldn't be doing.

     There are subjective scoring systems and interpretted numbers.  IF YOU SAY Dungeon X needs GS of 250> that doesn't mean that someone can't do it with GS240.  OBVIOUSLY player skill can affect the results.  Bad player with great gear can do badly, good player with OK gear will do fine, ANY PLAYER with horrible gear shouldn't be able to do it.

    There are other things:  Overgearing.  You know that Dungeon X needs GS250 but you require 300 because you want to do the 15 minute run.  How about Dungeon scalling:  If you overgear, you get less loot?  Would you be happy with that?

    When I left wow, the Lich King Raid came out.  I was undergeared but was taking on the first boss as a lot of people were doing and getting the rep ring. There were tons of pubs doing that.  Then suddenly, after enough people got gear from the first boss, the GS level was set at the first boss gear.  I wasn't lucky enough to have an item due to not winning loot rolls but yet was prevented from going on due to GS.  IF I had the item, I would have been able to.  Kind of BS in my.

    Let's face facts, the vast majority of people when they get the power they will eliminate people from groups.  They are the kids who didn't get to sit at the popular table in school and now is their chance to lord over others.  Not all but some.  If you are blindly following the GS and not the player, you just might be one of those people. 

    I quit wow at that point. Having been around since vanilla and part of one of the top guilds on the server.

     

    This is true, overgeared players can sometimes carry an undergeared player through a dungeon. Which is why I think there should be a combined party score.
  • AmjocoAmjoco Layton, UTPosts: 4,782Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Amjoco
    Originally posted by Amjoco
    I'm just now looking into this game. I'm somewhat confused on gear and the "foundry" system. What keeps someone from making a mission and adding epic loot on a very simple level? Is there a requirement for the author to achieve before developing a mission? Sorry for the dumb question. 

    Anyone plz? I

    you can't assign loot in the foundry its automatic based on how hard the encounter is.. you can set how hard mobs are in the foundry like easy medium hard and such then the game automatically assigns loot

    Thank you Aerowyn! I like that. 

    As it is I would have played this as a single player rpg, but this looks very promising. New fun stuff. :)

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • Shadowguy64Shadowguy64 Rohnert Park, CAPosts: 848Member

    I dislike the gear score when it's used for discrimination, but I do like it as a gauge of my own character's gear progression. And it also makes sense when used as a minimum gear level for LFD type situations.

     

    So, basically, it's a usefull tool that some of the players abuse in a negative way.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,784Member Uncommon
    If a player's utility in a group is primarily determined by his gearscore, then discrimination is the least of your worries.  "Combat is terrible" is a much bigger problem.
  • theAsnatheAsna AsnatownPosts: 321Member


    Something like gearscore is more or less a crutch.


    People just see different things in it. There are some that use it to discriminate. Others use it as a tool to judge the skill of a person or to estimate the time another person spent playing the game, etc.


    Additionally there are issues related with understanding game mechanics of a game, Just take a game like WoW. How effective your toon is in PVE depends on the toons level and the level of the opponent. On top of that comes gear that improves certain abilities (e.g. to hit %, damage potential) which in effect raise a toon's level. The toon's durability is represented by hitpoints and potential resistances. Contemplating all this is hard, especially when you don't know the exact game mechanics.


    It's understandable that people want something more tangible to determine another player's "skill". What is there to do if you don't want to rely on such a simplistic (and misleading) metric like gear score?


    Take your time to play with potential team mates. You don't have to do the hardest raid/content on the "first date". See how they do in other content (e.g. small group content, inferior raid content). See if they can adapt to different strategies. See if they bring some new ideas/tactics. Yes, that requires some time. But if you just want to speed to the end as fast as possible/ farm mindlessly then you miss the point of a multiplayer game. In an MMO everyone will improve his/ her gear with time. But can you become a better player? Can you improve your skill? Can you cope with challenges? Can you improve your social skills? Can you build a network of friends/ fellow players/ potential team mates? Metrics like gear score won't help with those essentials.

  • birdycephonbirdycephon Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 1,314Member
    So basically, because something useful can be abused by some people to hurt other peoples feelings, it should be removed?
  • udonudon Durham, NCPosts: 1,768Member Uncommon

    This isn't the kind of game where gear grinding is worth the trouble IMO.  It's progression system is way to shallow to make something like a gear score matter.  I'm sure plenty of people will get all worked up over it but at the end of the day it's not going to matter much.

    And even if it did it's not like not having a gear score changes anything.  TSW doesn't have a gear score and the LFG channel is full with requests for players with the ability to parse a certain number.  Same with every other game I have played end game gear score or not.

  • theAsnatheAsna AsnatownPosts: 321Member
    Originally posted by birdycephon
    So basically, because something useful can be abused by some people to hurt other peoples feelings, it should be removed?

     

    The irony is that the people that come up with such a metric will know its benefits and shortcomings.

     

    A lot of people that use the metrics, use them without thought. Just take today's economy as example and how people blindly trusted the ratings for various financial products.

  • psiicpsiic Tampa, FLPosts: 946Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by theAsna


    Something like gearscore is more or less a crutch.


    People just see different things in it. There are some that use it to discriminate. Others use it as a tool to judge the skill of a person or to estimate the time another person spent playing the game, etc.


     

    This is EXACTY the point, gearscore does not score the SKILL of the player at all.  Yet most idiots looking at gerascore think it does.

     

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,221Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by evilastro

    Originally posted by itgrowls

    Gear in this game is nothing like it is in the others. It's really REALLY easy to get, they even have an in game helper called a broker that tells you where to get your next upgrades if it be by the auction house or completing a task. So even if people are being stupid about this it's not that difficult to catch up. and I doubt very much it takes an enormous amount of dungeon running to actually achieve the goals you need for your play style. 

    Also, if someone end game is taking the trinity seriously, they can't play honestly. If they think that the trinity is at all necessary to finish and they are acting all leetist about it call them out because that's not how the game is designed and they are just trying to cover for their own lack of skill. I usually don't make statements like this and I usually hate the leetist people who spew this stuff at every turn but in this case the way this game was designed to be trinity lite, it's true, they aren't what they claim to be if they are expecting a perfectly built trinity run every time.

    What dungeons have you done? The Cloak Tower? Come back again once you are doing end game hard modes.

    Gear matters, so does the trinity. Unless you want to waste lots of money on the store healthstones.

     

    This is very true.  At later levels you need better gear and that stuff isn't just thrown at you like greens.

    Originally posted by Quizzical
    If a player's utility in a group is primarily determined by his gearscore, then discrimination is the least of your worries.  "Combat is terrible" is a much bigger problem.

     

    I don't think the gearscore works like that in this game though.  It's action oriented so gear score has more to do with the potential of a players output and not so much their actual output.  A tank with great gear will be able to survive longer but, unlike a hard tab-targeted game with total rng determining combat, a tank in this game still needs to use mobility and tactics or they will be chugging pots or dying.

    I do agree though, that there could have been better ways to hide this stuff from the player.  It's sort of a lazy easy way out when designing group content and requirements.

    Originally posted by birdycephon
    So basically, because something useful can be abused by some people to hurt other peoples feelings, it should be removed?

    The developers should have used a little foresight and experience to make a better system.  There is gearscore in Rift (Hit, Toughness, and Focus), but each role only needs to do well in their primary area.  A tank needs toughness and a little hit.  A physical dps class needs hit, and a magic class needs focus.  No one really says, does your total gear need this score.  They just advertise the content.  Each content area has a known minimum hit/tough/focus.   And, the dungeon finder only shows options for which you qualify so it's not like you're looking at what a loser you are.  It only shows the content that will help you gear up.

    It's not so much the system, but how it's implemented and how it can be used to detract from the community.

  • birdycephonbirdycephon Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 1,314Member
    Originally posted by psiic

    Originally posted by theAsna

    Something like gearscore is more or less a crutch.
    People just see different things in it. There are some that use it to discriminate. Others use it as a tool to judge the skill of a person or to estimate the time another person spent playing the game, etc.
     

    This is EXACTY the point, gearscore does not score the SKILL of the player at all.  Yet most idiots looking at gerascore think it does.

     

     

    I understand where youre comming from, however there comes a point where no matter how skillful a player is, he will still fail without the appropriate gear, or severly handicap the party, whether he gets one-shotted by an aoe, or doesnt deal enough dps to bring down the boss before it goes berserk.
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,503Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Amjoco
    Originally posted by Amjoco
    I'm just now looking into this game. I'm somewhat confused on gear and the "foundry" system. What keeps someone from making a mission and adding epic loot on a very simple level? Is there a requirement for the author to achieve before developing a mission? Sorry for the dumb question. 

    Anyone plz? I

    you can't assign loot in the foundry its automatic based on how hard the encounter is.. you can set how hard mobs are in the foundry like easy medium hard and such then the game automatically assigns loot

    I have a quick question. Can you build things using the foundry without paying anything?

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,221Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Amjoco
    Originally posted by Amjoco
    I'm just now looking into this game. I'm somewhat confused on gear and the "foundry" system. What keeps someone from making a mission and adding epic loot on a very simple level? Is there a requirement for the author to achieve before developing a mission? Sorry for the dumb question. 

    Anyone plz? I

    you can't assign loot in the foundry its automatic based on how hard the encounter is.. you can set how hard mobs are in the foundry like easy medium hard and such then the game automatically assigns loot

    I have a quick question. Can you build things using the foundry without paying anything?

    Yes you can.  There are limits on how much you can publish I think, but I don't know those.

  • DaezAsterDaezAster new york, NYPosts: 803Member
    Logged into gw2 lastnight to play the new dungeon thats lvl80 and some cat was asking for group and we need 1 more so I invited him only to see he was lvl20.  THIS!!!
  • theAsnatheAsna AsnatownPosts: 321Member
    Originally posted by birdycephon
    Originally posted by psiic
    Originally posted by theAsna


    Something like gearscore is more or less a crutch.


    People just see different things in it. There are some that use it to discriminate. Others use it as a tool to judge the skill of a person or to estimate the time another person spent playing the game, etc.


     

    This is EXACTY the point, gearscore does not score the SKILL of the player at all.  Yet most idiots looking at gerascore think it does.

     

     

    I understand where youre comming from, however there comes a point where no matter how skillful a player is, he will still fail without the appropriate gear, or severly handicap the party, whether he gets one-shotted by an aoe, or doesnt deal enough dps to bring down the boss before it goes berserk.

     

    No matter the gearscore you'll only know if a player was useful after you have run content with them. At least once.

     

    1) Being killed by an AOE means the player was not aware what happened around him/her. HP thresholds are more accurate in this case than a gear score metric.

    2) Gearscore will only tell you something about a DPS potential. Whether that player delivers that potential is another question.

     

    The more interesting question is. If the content is difficult then why do you have to rely on pugging?

  • birdycephonbirdycephon Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 1,314Member
    Originally posted by theAsna

    Originally posted by birdycephon
    Originally posted by psiic
    Originally posted by theAsna

    Something like gearscore is more or less a crutch.
    People just see different things in it. There are some that use it to discriminate. Others use it as a tool to judge the skill of a person or to estimate the time another person spent playing the game, etc.
     

    This is EXACTY the point, gearscore does not score the SKILL of the player at all.  Yet most idiots looking at gerascore think it does.

     

     

    I understand where youre comming from, however there comes a point where no matter how skillful a player is, he will still fail without the appropriate gear, or severly handicap the party, whether he gets one-shotted by an aoe, or doesnt deal enough dps to bring down the boss before it goes berserk.

     

    No matter the gearscore you'll only know if a player was useful after you have run content with them. At least once.

     

    1) Being killed by an AOE means the player was not aware what happened around him/her.

    2) Gearscore will only tell you something about a DPS potential. Whether that player delivers that potential is another question.

     

    The more interesting question is. If the content is difficult then why do you have to rely on pugging?

     

    Because some people want to run high end dungeons, but dont want to have no time to commit fulltime to a raiding guild.
  • Shadowguy64Shadowguy64 Rohnert Park, CAPosts: 848Member
    Originally posted by psiic
    Originally posted by theAsna


    Something like gearscore is more or less a crutch.


    People just see different things in it. There are some that use it to discriminate. Others use it as a tool to judge the skill of a person or to estimate the time another person spent playing the game, etc.


     

    This is EXACTY the point, gearscore does not score the SKILL of the player at all.  Yet most idiots looking at gerascore think it does. 

     

    This is true. It's like a job resume. Sure the job seeker may be the best worker ever...but if his resume is mispelled and written in crayons...he's unlikely to get hired...

     

     

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Amjoco
    Originally posted by Amjoco
    I'm just now looking into this game. I'm somewhat confused on gear and the "foundry" system. What keeps someone from making a mission and adding epic loot on a very simple level? Is there a requirement for the author to achieve before developing a mission? Sorry for the dumb question. 

    Anyone plz? I

    you can't assign loot in the foundry its automatic based on how hard the encounter is.. you can set how hard mobs are in the foundry like easy medium hard and such then the game automatically assigns loot

    I have a quick question. Can you build things using the foundry without paying anything?

    yes once you get level 15 foundry opens and costs nothing to use.. you are limited in the number of total projects you are given 10 quest & 10 campaigns slots.. pretty sure you can purchase more slots but haven't looked into that yet

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • theAsnatheAsna AsnatownPosts: 321Member
    Originally posted by birdycephon
    Originally posted by theAsna
    ....
    The more interesting question is. If the content is difficult then why do you have to rely on pugging?

     

    Because some people want to run high end dungeons, but dont want to have no time to commit fulltime to a raiding guild.

     

    You don't have to commit fulltime to a raiding guild. You just need to be able to manage your time. You should be able to know when you have some spare time (no work, no family responsibilities, etc.). Build a network of friends/ fellow players/ potential team mates. Find a suitable time when people can play together. Etc. It doesn't need to be 5 days in a row for 5+ hours. Once a week maybe if you find it that hard to find some time.

     

    How is gear score helping with that?

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by Vannor

    It can be bad for the community that ignores it. For those that don't ignore it, it ensures there is nothing the argue about.

    Gearscores came into MMOs because everyone was checking each others equipment, arguing about it and ruining their own and everyone elses fun.

    A gearscrore does this: Strong enough for this content? Yep.. No argument. Too weak for this content? Nope.. No argument.

    It saves time and arguments.

    Some people trying to do content they shouldn't be doing might get hurt feelings if they get kicked from a group.. but at the end of the day.. they wouldn't be hurt if they paid attention to their gearscore and stopped trying to do stuff they shouldn't be doing.

    Problem here is that the line you talk about isn't black and white.

    There are people with skill who are skilled/strong enough for the content at a much lower score. But the score is used so that the baseline for 'are you strong enough' is really 'is your gear so good even an asshat could complete the content.

    Gearscore checks are a way of saying, 'are you overpowered so I don't have to risk dying?'

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