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F2P is making more than TWICE as much money as P2P in the US

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Comments

  • MibletMiblet Member Posts: 333

    I agree free players do add something to the experience in making the game world more lively and providing group members and potential new friends to meet.

    As I said there is no free.  F2P gamers that pay for nothing are merely having someone else pay for them.  Also in general if you don't pay cash and do play for free in such games you will be paying in the excess time required to do the same tasks as paying players.

  • LanfeaLanfea Member UncommonPosts: 223

    plutosams hits the nail.

     

    we have to take a closer look into the data and can't trust any flat conclusion. not long ago i saw a similiar statistic for the german mmo market. f2p-games generated nealry 75% of the overall mmo revenue in the year 2012. but in this statistic browser games, companies like zynga or bigpoint offer, were listed as f2p games aswell as any freemium game like ddo or lotro. and don't underestimate the browser game market. while the ARPPU (average revenue per paying user (per month)) generated by the cashshop in high quality browser games can reach up to 10$ the ARPPU generated in cashshops in games like gw2 or swtor are mainly below 5$. also from estimated 38 million germans who are playing mmogs only 16 million use to play client based mmos. see, games like tera, eq I & II, lotro, swtor and many more didn't went f2p because they would make money with the cashshop, they went f2p to get people into a subscription.

     

    f2p is nothing more than a heavy by marketing rules modified version of the good old 14-days-trial offer. its a good way for older high budget p2p games to get new players and fresh blood and its a must-do thing for newer mediocre games like swtor or neverwinter to reach out for a bigger customer group, people who would'nt pay 40$ only to get into the game.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by fivoroth
    No suprises there. There are only a handful P2P MMOs out there and a billion F2P asian grinders :D

    This is US data.

    And if F2P asian grinders are so popular in the US, more power to them. May be US companies can learn a thing or two.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
     

    The fact is, a year ago these forums and other forums all over the internet were absolutely FULL of people saying "I'm not paying a subscription fee for games" and making all kinds of other anti-subscription rants.

    Yeah. I am one of them. I don't see a reason to sub anymore. This explosion of the F2P market is good news. That means MORE F2P MMOs will be produced and i have more choices.

    Those of us with half a brain already knew that the future of online entertainment was going to be in micro transactions, and we knew they would make more money too if they found smart ways to monetize.  It's inevitable, and the cat is out of the bag now.  Those of you who don't like cash shops better start getting over it, especially if you plan to play mainstream games.

    I have no problems with cash shop. It is pretty easy to ignore, and i am grateful the cash shops let the whales subsidizing my games.

    The point is, people didn't want the sub fee because it was "too expensive", so now they have cash shops so players willing to spend cash can support the cheapskates who couldn't afford a sub fee.  Do you expect these games to be created over 3-5 years and then handed to you for free?

    "afford" .. i use to pay a sub to WOW .. don't see any reason to do so anymore. It is not about affordablility. It is about competition. If i can have fun for free, is there a reason not to?

    And yes, i not only expect these games to be created 3-5 years and haned to me for free ... i am actually playing them. So far the expectation is met.

     

     

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson Member UncommonPosts: 1,919

    Active users?

    Registered accounts?

    Who can really tell what a free to play player counts as?  People are probably counted as playing F2P games even if the person has been dead for a year.  They just aren't buying as much from the cash shop lately.

  • StonesDKStonesDK Member UncommonPosts: 1,805
    Originally posted by Miblet

    As I said there is no free.  F2P gamers that pay for nothing are merely having someone else pay for them.  Also in general if you don't pay cash and do play for free in such games you will be paying in the excess time required to do the same tasks as paying players.

    We will just have to disagree. If I don't pay then it's free for me. It doesn't matter if the company or others pay my way. In the end it's about me not about the next guy. So using free is a perfect way to describe something I'm not paying for. Again free players are valuable because they perform a much needed service to a F2P game namely population so in relative terms they pay with their presence.

     

    You don't sit and bicker with people, who just told you the admission to a show they are going to is free do you? If so, you would have to be a pretty annoying person to deal with on a daily basis, if you insist it isn't free because the people behind it pays rent, electricity and whatnot

  • KroxMalonKroxMalon Member UncommonPosts: 608
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    http://2p.com/5170acba61fc1cbdad62bf61_1/March-2013-US-Digital-Games-Market-Overview.htm

     

    "Speaking of the MMO, the free-to-play MMO is definitely a trendy and have a growth of 3 million players in March, which also brings a slight improvement on monetization to $195 million. To the contrary, the pay-to-play MMO segment is going down in March and loses around 289,000 subscribers. Nonetheless, the overall revenues remained relatively stable at $86 million"

     

     

    Only if you spend the money. I personally dont.

  • ArclanArclan Member UncommonPosts: 1,550


    Originally posted by plutosams
    ...likely meaning that revenue per game on P2P far EXCEEDS net revenue per game of F2P.


    This. If I were a developer, I'd rather join the profit-earning P2P market rather than the oversaturated, penny-squeezing "F2P" market. In fact, I need to find my tinfoil hat because I'm starting to think this huge "F2P" push is meant to drive competition away from the P2P market. "F2P" is the new "Greenland," luring hopeful companies to their eventual demise.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • DrakynnDrakynn Member Posts: 2,030

    F2P vaters tot he two biggest groups

    Those who don't want to pay anything and will play ubtil they feel they have to spend money and leave.

    Those who want to be able to pay to not paly a game and/or gain soem perceived advantage.

    group 1 serves to make group 2 feel elite.

    Anyone inbetween is usually screwed though soem fo the newer F2P games have less aggressive microtransactions so those who don't mind paying modest price every so often can still feel competitive but this is not the norm yet.

    I am not currently palying any MMORPG.I play games for fun and liek to be immersed in a game's story and/or world to get away from the real world just like I do when I read or watch T.V.Constant reminders of real world money break my flow and lessen my fun.

    This is true of Dead Space 3 too and moblie games that cosntantly try to force you to buy more coins or energy.

    Just My Opinion but I know I'm a minority opinion.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by KroxMalon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    http://2p.com/5170acba61fc1cbdad62bf61_1/March-2013-US-Digital-Games-Market-Overview.htm

     

    "Speaking of the MMO, the free-to-play MMO is definitely a trendy and have a growth of 3 million players in March, which also brings a slight improvement on monetization to $195 million. To the contrary, the pay-to-play MMO segment is going down in March and loses around 289,000 subscribers. Nonetheless, the overall revenues remained relatively stable at $86 million"

     

     

    Only if you spend the money. I personally dont.

    Most don't. It is well known that F2P games are paid for by a few whales.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Drakynn

    F2P vaters tot he two biggest groups

    Those who don't want to pay anything and will play ubtil they feel they have to spend money and leave.

    Those who want to be able to pay to not paly a game and/or gain soem perceived advantage.

    group 1 serves to make group 2 feel elite.

    Anyone inbetween is usually screwed though soem fo the newer F2P games have less aggressive microtransactions so those who don't mind paying modest price every so often can still feel competitive but this is not the norm yet.

    I am not currently palying any MMORPG.I play games for fun and liek to be immersed in a game's story and/or world to get away from the real world just like I do when I read or watch T.V.Constant reminders of real world money break my flow and lessen my fun.

    This is true of Dead Space 3 too and moblie games that cosntantly try to force you to buy more coins or energy.

    Just My Opinion but I know I'm a minority opinion.

    There are a lot of group 1, and enough group 2, so the F2P model works wonder.

    Dead Space 3 is a fun game. I finished it without paying a cent of RMT. I am not bothered by RMT. In fact, i like RMT in D3 ... i can make some money, and retain the value of my "earnings" better (since real money in my D3 account don't depreciate like gold).

    The existence of RMT does not lessen my fun at all. I guess i am blessed that way. There are more fun games for me to play, and many are free.

  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by plutosams
    ...likely meaning that revenue per game on P2P far EXCEEDS net revenue per game of F2P.

     


    This. If I were a developer, I'd rather join the profit-earning P2P market rather than the oversaturated, penny-squeezing "F2P" market. In fact, I need to find my tinfoil hat because I'm starting to think this huge "F2P" push is meant to drive competition away from the P2P market. "F2P" is the new "Greenland," luring hopeful companies to their eventual demise.

    I think the P2P is in a freefall. The reason being that is F2P games can give you AS MUCH content as a P2P, why would you pay the fee? It is just ridiculous to think that way.


  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by plutosams
    ...likely meaning that revenue per game on P2P far EXCEEDS net revenue per game of F2P.

     


    This. If I were a developer, I'd rather join the profit-earning P2P market rather than the oversaturated, penny-squeezing "F2P" market. In fact, I need to find my tinfoil hat because I'm starting to think this huge "F2P" push is meant to drive competition away from the P2P market. "F2P" is the new "Greenland," luring hopeful companies to their eventual demise.

    I think the P2P is in a freefall. The reason being that is F2P games can give you AS MUCH content as a P2P, why would you pay the fee? It is just ridiculous to think that way.

    What? P2P is profit earning? Where have you been? p2p-only game is in decline precisely because money is taken away and goes to F2P games.

  • thinktank001thinktank001 Member UncommonPosts: 2,144
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I think the P2P is in a freefall. The reason being that is F2P games can give you AS MUCH content as a P2P, why would you pay the fee? It is just ridiculous to think that way.

     

    Gameplay quality is terrible in cash shop model games.   Players have to either pay for the full experience, or they have to accept the fact that their experience will be less rewarding if they choose to go the " free route ".  

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by thinktank001
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I think the P2P is in a freefall. The reason being that is F2P games can give you AS MUCH content as a P2P, why would you pay the fee? It is just ridiculous to think that way.

     

    Gameplay quality is terrible in cash shop model games.   Players have to either pay for the full experience, or they have to accept the fact that their experience will be less rewarding if they choose to go the " free route ".  

    "terrible" is in the eye of the beholder.

    I played STO, DDO, DCUO, PS2 .. all are pretty fun game to me. And who cares about getting the "full" experience when the "partial" one is fun enough.

    I play game for fun, not for envy about whether the next guy has a bigger star ship.

    And yes, it is less rewarding than shelving out $100 but the question is whether it is rewarding enough.

  • nbtscannbtscan Member UncommonPosts: 862
    It's hard to believe that between WoW, Rift, EVE and FFXI (can't think of any other subscription games at the moment that are live) that they're not making more than F2P games in the U.S.  I guess with game populations such as TERA, GW2 and SW:TOR it's not outside the realm of possibility though.
  • BattlerockBattlerock Member CommonPosts: 1,393
    The numbers are only a testament of pc gaming suppression in 2013
  • BattlerockBattlerock Member CommonPosts: 1,393
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Originally posted by KingofHartz
    The numbers are only a testament of pc gaming suppression in 2013

    What exactly do you mean by this?

     

    Lets say f2p model was non existent. Revenues would be much higher for p2p, much higher than p2p and f2p combined today and we would also have companies with a strong back that could support thier games. Im no swtor fan, but with f2p all the moeny they put intodeveloping it, the gaming world wont see that anytime soon with f2p suppressing the iindustry. That means we get thousands of low quality titles. But as the old school fades out and the new culture comes they wont know the difference. In essence the best days of pc gaming are behind us until the cycle comes back around. When it does it still wont be the same.
  • BattlerockBattlerock Member CommonPosts: 1,393
    Originally posted by KingofHartz

    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Originally posted by KingofHartz
    The numbers are only a testament of pc gaming suppression in 2013

    What exactly do you mean by this?

     

    Lets say f2p model was non existent. Revenues would be much higher for p2p, much higher than p2p and f2p combined today and we would also have companies with a strong back that could support thier games. Im no swtor fan, but with f2p all the moeny they put intodeveloping it, the gaming world wont see that anytime soon with f2p suppressing the iindustry. That means we get thousands of low quality titles. But as the old school fades out and the new culture comes they wont know the difference. In essence the best days of pc gaming are behind us until the cycle comes back around. When it does it still wont be the same.

     

    I should say too that Daoc is onto something, I have critisized kickstarter in the past but as far as quality in niche gaming they are creating an exception to the suppression f2p has created.
  • MindTriggerMindTrigger Member Posts: 2,596
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
     

    The fact is, a year ago these forums and other forums all over the internet were absolutely FULL of people saying "I'm not paying a subscription fee for games" and making all kinds of other anti-subscription rants.

    Yeah. I am one of them. I don't see a reason to sub anymore. This explosion of the F2P market is good news. That means MORE F2P MMOs will be produced and i have more choices.

    Those of us with half a brain already knew that the future of online entertainment was going to be in micro transactions, and we knew they would make more money too if they found smart ways to monetize.  It's inevitable, and the cat is out of the bag now.  Those of you who don't like cash shops better start getting over it, especially if you plan to play mainstream games.

    I have no problems with cash shop. It is pretty easy to ignore, and i am grateful the cash shops let the whales subsidizing my games.

    The point is, people didn't want the sub fee because it was "too expensive", so now they have cash shops so players willing to spend cash can support the cheapskates who couldn't afford a sub fee.  Do you expect these games to be created over 3-5 years and then handed to you for free?

    "afford" .. i use to pay a sub to WOW .. don't see any reason to do so anymore. It is not about affordablility. It is about competition. If i can have fun for free, is there a reason not to?

    And yes, i not only expect these games to be created 3-5 years and haned to me for free ... i am actually playing them. So far the expectation is met.

     

     

    Yes, and you can do that because other people are spending money to keep the game profitable.  I personally don't mind this at all.  That's the model that emerged from so many people not wanting or being able to pay a monthly sub fee.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,749
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    [mod edit]

    But can you guess how much more money F2P is making compared to P2P without seeing the post?

    Where's the comparison to how much the P2P income was before all of the F2P conversions.  Something tells me that the industry was making much more money overall with subscriptions, but are opting for this new model because it allows for much less effort on their parts.  Games obviously work much harder putting out content to keep players subscribed than I have seen with current efforts on F2P games.

     

    The only quasi-exception I have seen so far is with LOTRO, yet it is a Freemium game hybrid that is still pushing players to subscribe over piecemeal purchases.

    image
  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363
    Originally posted by thinktank001
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I think the P2P is in a freefall. The reason being that is F2P games can give you AS MUCH content as a P2P, why would you pay the fee? It is just ridiculous to think that way.

     

    Gameplay quality is terrible in cash shop model games.   Players have to either pay for the full experience, or they have to accept the fact that their experience will be less rewarding if they choose to go the " free route ".  

    I don't believe so. I mean when one states such over-reaching statements there are exceptions. Just because you don't like the game play, doesn't mean it is bad.

     

    hmm - 'less rewarding experience' - that is a nice euphamism. What do you mean by that? They have to grind more, less? Putting out statements that cannot be discussed doesn't help the discussion. Yes, there are games where you have to buy things in the CS shops to play, they are called P2W games not F2P - Allods Online is one of them. Others, no you don't.


  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,749
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
     

    The fact is, a year ago these forums and other forums all over the internet were absolutely FULL of people saying "I'm not paying a subscription fee for games" and making all kinds of other anti-subscription rants.

    Yeah. I am one of them. I don't see a reason to sub anymore. This explosion of the F2P market is good news. That means MORE F2P MMOs will be produced and i have more choices.

    Those of us with half a brain already knew that the future of online entertainment was going to be in micro transactions, and we knew they would make more money too if they found smart ways to monetize.  It's inevitable, and the cat is out of the bag now.  Those of you who don't like cash shops better start getting over it, especially if you plan to play mainstream games.

    I have no problems with cash shop. It is pretty easy to ignore, and i am grateful the cash shops let the whales subsidizing my games.

    The point is, people didn't want the sub fee because it was "too expensive", so now they have cash shops so players willing to spend cash can support the cheapskates who couldn't afford a sub fee.  Do you expect these games to be created over 3-5 years and then handed to you for free?

    "afford" .. i use to pay a sub to WOW .. don't see any reason to do so anymore. It is not about affordablility. It is about competition. If i can have fun for free, is there a reason not to?

    And yes, i not only expect these games to be created 3-5 years and haned to me for free ... i am actually playing them. So far the expectation is met.

     

     

    Yes, and you can do that because other people are spending money to keep the game profitable.  I personally don't mind this at all.  That's the model that emerged from so many people not wanting or being able to pay a monthly sub fee.

    How sustainable do you think it can remain when a good number of people freeload at the expense of others.  The resentment alone will eventually become explosive, but I have a feeling that more and more people will stop paying into the shops due to that very resentment and could very well dramatically shift the F2P paradigm into a bunch of game closures.

    image
  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,749
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by thinktank001
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I think the P2P is in a freefall. The reason being that is F2P games can give you AS MUCH content as a P2P, why would you pay the fee? It is just ridiculous to think that way.

     

    Gameplay quality is terrible in cash shop model games.   Players have to either pay for the full experience, or they have to accept the fact that their experience will be less rewarding if they choose to go the " free route ".  

    I don't believe so. I mean when one states such over-reaching statements there are exceptions. Just because you don't like the game play, doesn't mean it is bad.

     

    hmm - 'less rewarding experience' - that is a nice euphamism. What do you mean by that? They have to grind more, less? Putting out statements that cannot be discussed doesn't help the discussion. Yes, there are games where you have to buy things in the CS shops to play, they are called P2W games not F2P - Allods Online is one of them. Others, no you don't.

    We notice the huge difference in game quality, we don't care if you choose to ignore it.

    image
  • doodphacedoodphace Member UncommonPosts: 1,858
    Originally posted by nbtscan
    It's hard to believe that between WoW, Rift, EVE and FFXI (can't think of any other subscription games at the moment that are live) that they're not making more than F2P games in the U.S.  I guess with game populations such as TERA, GW2 and SW:TOR it's not outside the realm of possibility though.

    Said 'F2P" games still offer subscriptions, for which there are still quite a bit.

    It would be interesting to see if the subscribers of SWTOR are bunched in with the froobs in their numbers.

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