i think the insta-grat crowd was always out there, but now they have multiplied. in our hobby it is especially apparent because the market has opened up so much.
for an example relevant to our subject:
I have been practicing a sport/martial art for more than 15 years... anyway, young people come and train and it is a more common occurence for a young person to think that he should be as good as most senior practitioners within a very limited amount of time. they like to get them things fast and be done with them, and usually do not stay around for too long if there are no short-term rewards/benefits. On the other hand, there are indeed some who will stay after practice, ask questions, want to compete against the best, put the extra time and enjoy the activity for what it is. i really enjoy spending my time with those people (they also make me feel important, hehe) and watch them improve, sweat and feel they have indeed accomplished something when they understand their own progress compared to those around them... We are not a competitive/pro club, we just practice because we enjoy our hobby and we have created a nice little enviroment where we all like t be in....I am now almost 35 and, hate to admit it, slower and less explosive than i used to be at 25, maybe a bit stronger, but my body is not at that peak condition i so fondly remember... also, I have a family and a job and less free time for my hobby...
Should I demand that it changes its nature/rules so that it would accomodate my physical condition and limited time? Or should I adjust myself/my life and try to enjoy it as much as I can?
Should I rank up all students/athletes the same way despite the time they have practiced even though one is a 25 year old student with a LOT of free time that practices every day and the other a 40 year old husband that barely manages to practice 2 times a week? Or should I just make them understand that what matters is that they enjoy themselves when they practice?
Should I demand from the organizing commiteet hat they all get a gold medal in the "x" world amateur cahmpionships because they paid their monthly fees and deserve to experience all that this sport/martal art can offer?
Should I offer sub-par training for free for this sport/martial art feeling that the new people who will come to train will leave anyway after 1-2 moths and just try to get money by selling them outfits and equipment?
hehe, if you like our hobby, weather the storm and find a nic(h)e little harbor where they still serve that dish you so much enjoy. Maybe you can't gulp 3-4 dishes at a sitting, like you used to, but you can still enjoy it's fine taste in moderation, and more importantly, you know that everything tastes much better when the company is good.
Omg stromp45 i love you, do i ever remember those damn corpse run...or somehow getting to a place you really really didn't belong..and then hollering for some bigger player to had a priest or druid to come res you...Do i ever miss those days.
I know I am. One of the people who supports MMO's that force you to have a sub to play. Never been a fan of the Microtransaction MMO's and Free to Play because the quantity of game is never better in my opinion and customer service is always worse.
I see the themepark (EQ/WoW) clone era coming to and end. Many big studios are working on sandbox or hybrid games atm (XLgames, SOE, CCP) and I think MMO devs have finally understood that content driven themeparks have zero lasting appeal.
If you want people to play your game for years, you need to either be Blizzard (with their financial backing that allows them to pump out crazy amounts of content) or you need to make a game where player driven content is the main focus.
That's what MMOs were all about in the beginning, until WoW's success came along and confused everyone.
Originally posted by Sovrath I don't mind quests, I just wihs they were more involved than just killing 5 of something.I would say I'm usually very zen about the whole thing. Heck, I've been having a lot of fun in Neverwinter. But honestly I would prefer one game where I can just stay and "make a home" over flitting from game to game.Honestly I just want a hard game world where I can fail or succeed on my merits and the merits of my "chums".I don't always want to succeed and I don't want to scratch my butt and get 25% of my next leve's xp for doing it.
Well said and echoed by me
The Secret World has a great Quest system that moves away from Traditional MMO Quest tropes like find 5 Bear Arses. Especially the investigation Quests.
How long does it take for a casual player to get to max level and "beat the game?" I tried TSW on their last beta weekend and while the starting quests were sometimes interesting, there is a lot more to a game than quests. Or Combat. Or crafting. Or player housing. Or setting. Or aesthetics. Or graphics. Or pay model. Or character progression. Or...
A good game combines these features into a good mix of gameplay options, for me.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
The journey to the "max level" is the fun part... and if it takes me a year or more then even better. I still remember playing Lineage II..... months of leveling and grind and you still only advanced and progressed very slowly. You didnt care that you werent max level, you pretty much just lived the moment regardless of level or anything. Oh god I miss these times.
How many times are we going to hear the easymode MMO apologists tell us to change our game, look for something else, you can find ‘fun’ somewhere?
Asking us to reinvent our personality and attitudes to suit your point of view is laughable. I would not ask this of you, if you are having fun good luck to you.
Oh and I noticed the guy with the Avatar text “Do not speak Ill of Asherons Call 2.” Back in the day we did, in droves though I was not one of them. In those days we thought another open world fully fledged MMO was just around the corner. How naïve we were.
In the last four or five years we have not had one mainstream open world MMO released. Please correct me if I am wrong, certainly nothing springs to mind. Can we even call them MMO’s? To me these are new games as much as MMO sub-genres, that issue is a hard call.
You just gave the reason why you should change your game, look for something else and find "fun" somewhere else.
Or you rather not have any fun and rant all day? Your call.
How long does it take for a casual player to get to max level and "beat the game?" I tried TSW on their last beta weekend and while the starting quests were sometimes interesting, there is a lot more to a game than quests. Or Combat. Or crafting. Or player housing. Or setting. Or aesthetics. Or graphics. Or pay model. Or character progression. Or...
A good game combines these features into a good mix of gameplay options, for me.
Don't know. But does it matter? But probably at least a few weeks. If the quests are fun, and the game is only $15, play it for a few weeks and then "finish" the game. Sounds like a pretty good fun value to me.
The problem is not instant gratification. It is not that we old farts and our ideas fading into the shadows. We simply remember a time that for many younger gamers never was- the time of Commodore and Atari, the time when you had to stay at home or use dimes to make phone calls(my town has 2 public telephones left, right in the center of our down-town area, like a shrine).
We grew up in a time when we had to imagine things instead of those things being, quite literally, everywhere. We are still amazed at the directions technology is moving, and that flows into our gaming styles. They look at our amazement and say, "So? I grew/am growing up with that stuff. Big whup." And it shows in their gaming styles. Our sense of community generally started out small and blossomed and grew with the internet, leading to MMO's. Their sense of community is barely contained by the internet, and MMO's to many younger people are simply other iterations of their iPhones and Androids. And both show in the respective gaming styles, as well. We just have to get used to it. Besides, who wants to start out a conversation with, "Well, back in my day, we hed GUILDS! GUILDS, I say, and we were part of a story. You know what a STORY IS, do ya, sassy-pants?"
I bet everyone in this thread who uses Skype or TS3 while gaming has used very similar lines in conversations with younger gamers. Myself included.
I have optimism that it'll happen one day, but even those of us who are old farts don't have the same tastes so it won't come in the form of a game that'll cater to everything each of us wants.
Someone out there has to understand that there is a market for a immersive world that doesn't hand you everything on a platter. Hopefully that someone also thinks CCP did it right in their approach to EVE in that they took everything they earned and put it right back into the game to slowly grow it.
With what's on the horizon now, i've got my money on EQ next. While it'd be crazy as fuck if Smedley was the one who came riding in on a white horse to save us all, and whle they definately have to reverse their modus oporandi of pulling resources after launch, the statements he's given leads me to believe that he's at least walking along the right path.
I'm a bit confused now if I'm considered an "old fart" or a "younger generation". I'm 40, but I dont play MMOs since that long. UO, EQ, DAoC, AO, WoW, EVE - I never played any of these "classics". I had a short intermezzo with Lineage 2, then since 2007 I play Vanguard, and I tried GW1 once for like a week or so, until I was completely bored out of my mind by it.
But I think Vanguard can qualify for rather old style. Thats what people write about it all the time, it would be "dated" and stuff. Dated ? How can a game be "dated" ? Graphics can, but graphics of Vanguard are actually still pretty nice. Not worse than for example SWTOR, from the screenshots I've seen.
I think almost every single gamer and dev company believe there is a market for an immersive game.
Every single dev also believes their game is immersive.
The players also believe their favorite game is immersive.
Everyone differs wildly on what they agree is immersive.
Conclusion? A dev trying to make their game immersive to someone else is in for a rude awakening.
Most players think maybe there favorite game is immersive but also majority its temp feel, after while they leave there awesome game and start trash/cusrse it into the ground here on our favorite whine forum mmorpg.com:P
The mind set of this topic ?......People here on this site are acking like players have a choice !
Old farts my butt.....Developers are changing mmos, not the new young players....You have no choice.
Their is no " Grand Poll " of what players are asking for. Developers are making games simple, easy kill, fast travel, auto everything on their own !
People must think others are goint to this majic web site. Voting for " easy softer mmos ". Then depelopers are going there, reading the polls and making there games that way !!!!
Old farts my butt.....Developers are changing mmos, not the new young players....You have no choice.
Essentially accurate (if simplistic).
Game development has evolved away from "Make my gamez Freaking Facegrind Hard so I can Punish Myself and thereby Prove my Manliness and Thump my Chest in Public gaining the Admiration of Online Teens everywhere" that was so much a part of video games in the 80s.
It does leave behind a certain crowd of folks (external affirmation seekers), no doubt.
On the other hand, there are still titles where one can go to Prove how Tuff they are. Targetted marketing based on certain game mechanics ('permadeath', "FFA Full Loot') aimed specifically and directly at those folks, in fact. Fans of those titles will not hesitate to explain how certain mechanics just make them better.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Being a mum and looking at my kids I realise that they are very different from how I was when I was young and while they may annoy us older people with their dashing about and doing several things at once. They would be texting and checking their laptop and dressing and running off and I try to think how I was at that age and I definitely never multitasked quite as much. If you put that in a vacumn you will not get the idea of how very different they are from those of us who grew up in the 60's or 70's. However I believe it is not a phase at all I think the future is more of this and their minds have to be doing several things at once at even crazier rates. That is why they get bored easily compared to us.They need to do several things at once whereas I like to concentrate on crafting in a more complex structure they want fast results and they want to be able to fight ,craft and socialize all at once. I really doubt this will pass.
Originally posted by delete5230 The mind set of this topic ?......People here on this site are acking like players have a choice !
Old farts my butt.....Developers are changing mmos, not the new young players....You have no choice.
Their is no " Grand Poll " of what players are asking for. Developers are making games simple, easy kill, fast travel, auto everything on their own !
People must think others are goint to this majic web site. Voting for " easy softer mmos ". Then depelopers are going there, reading the polls and making there games that way !!!!
In a sense, yes. The reality is that these games sell. Millions of them! If players "did not want" these games, would they buy them hand over foot?
Devs may not look at polls, buy they DO look at bottom lines. Players support that bottom line with almost every new release.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
My Dad is nearly 80 and plays MMOs... he didn't start until about 10 years ago... he's old and he farts... so I think he qualifies as an old fart.
Young people think of older people as old farts... but their idea of old is usually just 10 years older than them... or the "older crowd" thinks the same when players are 10 years younger than them.
I think an old fart is someone who grew up playing these... starting with the text-based MUDDs and working their way into to modern MMOs. Being old doesn't mean you've been playing these since inception... nor does being young... you either did or you didn't... kind of like a feat of strength... not available to all purely due to circumstances.
I personally believe these games are being created with planned obsolence in mind... I mean if a game is really well done and has a lot of replay value... why would you ever invest in another game? Make games that are shallow and they will constantly have to replace them.
Of course, we also live in a society where people replace computer components just because some new thing comes out... this new processor can handle 1 billion simulatneous processes at once! As if you'd ever tax it even remotely that much... and yet... more power sells like hot cakes. Kind of easy to see why anything shiny attracks sales... just look at any new MMO release. Doesn't matter who good or bad the game is, everyone essentially tries it. I don't think that is ever going to change.
I personally believe these games are being created with planned obsolence in mind... I mean if a game is really well done and has a lot of replay value... why would you ever invest in another game? Make games that are shallow and they will constantly have to replace them.
There are an additional reason. Any experience gets old and boring sooner or later. There are plenty of psychology literature support that. Humans always seek new experiences.
So there is little reasons for games to last forever.
Comments
hehe, hello old-timers
i think the insta-grat crowd was always out there, but now they have multiplied. in our hobby it is especially apparent because the market has opened up so much.
for an example relevant to our subject:
I have been practicing a sport/martial art for more than 15 years... anyway, young people come and train and it is a more common occurence for a young person to think that he should be as good as most senior practitioners within a very limited amount of time. they like to get them things fast and be done with them, and usually do not stay around for too long if there are no short-term rewards/benefits. On the other hand, there are indeed some who will stay after practice, ask questions, want to compete against the best, put the extra time and enjoy the activity for what it is. i really enjoy spending my time with those people (they also make me feel important, hehe) and watch them improve, sweat and feel they have indeed accomplished something when they understand their own progress compared to those around them... We are not a competitive/pro club, we just practice because we enjoy our hobby and we have created a nice little enviroment where we all like t be in....I am now almost 35 and, hate to admit it, slower and less explosive than i used to be at 25, maybe a bit stronger, but my body is not at that peak condition i so fondly remember... also, I have a family and a job and less free time for my hobby...
Should I demand that it changes its nature/rules so that it would accomodate my physical condition and limited time? Or should I adjust myself/my life and try to enjoy it as much as I can?
Should I rank up all students/athletes the same way despite the time they have practiced even though one is a 25 year old student with a LOT of free time that practices every day and the other a 40 year old husband that barely manages to practice 2 times a week? Or should I just make them understand that what matters is that they enjoy themselves when they practice?
Should I demand from the organizing commiteet hat they all get a gold medal in the "x" world amateur cahmpionships because they paid their monthly fees and deserve to experience all that this sport/martal art can offer?
Should I offer sub-par training for free for this sport/martial art feeling that the new people who will come to train will leave anyway after 1-2 moths and just try to get money by selling them outfits and equipment?
hehe, if you like our hobby, weather the storm and find a nic(h)e little harbor where they still serve that dish you so much enjoy. Maybe you can't gulp 3-4 dishes at a sitting, like you used to, but you can still enjoy it's fine taste in moderation, and more importantly, you know that everything tastes much better when the company is good.
See you all in game.
If you want people to play your game for years, you need to either be Blizzard (with their financial backing that allows them to pump out crazy amounts of content) or you need to make a game where player driven content is the main focus.
That's what MMOs were all about in the beginning, until WoW's success came along and confused everyone.
A good game combines these features into a good mix of gameplay options, for me.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Web & Graphic Design - www.xdrac.com
You just gave the reason why you should change your game, look for something else and find "fun" somewhere else.
Or you rather not have any fun and rant all day? Your call.
Don't know. But does it matter? But probably at least a few weeks. If the quests are fun, and the game is only $15, play it for a few weeks and then "finish" the game. Sounds like a pretty good fun value to me.
The problem is not instant gratification. It is not that we old farts and our ideas fading into the shadows. We simply remember a time that for many younger gamers never was- the time of Commodore and Atari, the time when you had to stay at home or use dimes to make phone calls(my town has 2 public telephones left, right in the center of our down-town area, like a shrine).
We grew up in a time when we had to imagine things instead of those things being, quite literally, everywhere. We are still amazed at the directions technology is moving, and that flows into our gaming styles. They look at our amazement and say, "So? I grew/am growing up with that stuff. Big whup." And it shows in their gaming styles. Our sense of community generally started out small and blossomed and grew with the internet, leading to MMO's. Their sense of community is barely contained by the internet, and MMO's to many younger people are simply other iterations of their iPhones and Androids. And both show in the respective gaming styles, as well. We just have to get used to it. Besides, who wants to start out a conversation with, "Well, back in my day, we hed GUILDS! GUILDS, I say, and we were part of a story. You know what a STORY IS, do ya, sassy-pants?"
I bet everyone in this thread who uses Skype or TS3 while gaming has used very similar lines in conversations with younger gamers. Myself included.
Anything new here? Hmmm... Nope. o/
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
I have optimism that it'll happen one day, but even those of us who are old farts don't have the same tastes so it won't come in the form of a game that'll cater to everything each of us wants.
Someone out there has to understand that there is a market for a immersive world that doesn't hand you everything on a platter. Hopefully that someone also thinks CCP did it right in their approach to EVE in that they took everything they earned and put it right back into the game to slowly grow it.
With what's on the horizon now, i've got my money on EQ next. While it'd be crazy as fuck if Smedley was the one who came riding in on a white horse to save us all, and whle they definately have to reverse their modus oporandi of pulling resources after launch, the statements he's given leads me to believe that he's at least walking along the right path.
I think almost every single gamer and dev company believe there is a market for an immersive game.
Every single dev also believes their game is immersive.
The players also believe their favorite game is immersive.
Everyone differs wildly on what they agree is immersive.
Conclusion? A dev trying to make their game immersive to someone else is in for a rude awakening.
I'm a bit confused now if I'm considered an "old fart" or a "younger generation". I'm 40, but I dont play MMOs since that long. UO, EQ, DAoC, AO, WoW, EVE - I never played any of these "classics". I had a short intermezzo with Lineage 2, then since 2007 I play Vanguard, and I tried GW1 once for like a week or so, until I was completely bored out of my mind by it.
But I think Vanguard can qualify for rather old style. Thats what people write about it all the time, it would be "dated" and stuff. Dated ? How can a game be "dated" ? Graphics can, but graphics of Vanguard are actually still pretty nice. Not worse than for example SWTOR, from the screenshots I've seen.
@OP
http://www.darkfallonline.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=thoCbKFLEuk
Most players think maybe there favorite game is immersive but also majority its temp feel, after while they leave there awesome game and start trash/cusrse it into the ground here on our favorite whine forum mmorpg.com:P
The mind set of this topic ?......People here on this site are acking like players have a choice !
Old farts my butt.....Developers are changing mmos, not the new young players....You have no choice.
Their is no " Grand Poll " of what players are asking for. Developers are making games simple, easy kill, fast travel, auto everything on their own !
People must think others are goint to this majic web site. Voting for " easy softer mmos ". Then depelopers are going there, reading the polls and making there games that way !!!!
Essentially accurate (if simplistic).
Game development has evolved away from "Make my gamez Freaking Facegrind Hard so I can Punish Myself and thereby Prove my Manliness and Thump my Chest in Public gaining the Admiration of Online Teens everywhere" that was so much a part of video games in the 80s.
It does leave behind a certain crowd of folks (external affirmation seekers), no doubt.
On the other hand, there are still titles where one can go to Prove how Tuff they are. Targetted marketing based on certain game mechanics ('permadeath', "FFA Full Loot') aimed specifically and directly at those folks, in fact. Fans of those titles will not hesitate to explain how certain mechanics just make them better.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
MMORPGs are a main stream product now.
My advice to you OP is to try to join roleplay servers or guilds.
The population is forever evolving and that includes virtual reality.
Devs may not look at polls, buy they DO look at bottom lines. Players support that bottom line with almost every new release.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
My Dad is nearly 80 and plays MMOs... he didn't start until about 10 years ago... he's old and he farts... so I think he qualifies as an old fart.
Young people think of older people as old farts... but their idea of old is usually just 10 years older than them... or the "older crowd" thinks the same when players are 10 years younger than them.
I think an old fart is someone who grew up playing these... starting with the text-based MUDDs and working their way into to modern MMOs. Being old doesn't mean you've been playing these since inception... nor does being young... you either did or you didn't... kind of like a feat of strength... not available to all purely due to circumstances.
I personally believe these games are being created with planned obsolence in mind... I mean if a game is really well done and has a lot of replay value... why would you ever invest in another game? Make games that are shallow and they will constantly have to replace them.
Of course, we also live in a society where people replace computer components just because some new thing comes out... this new processor can handle 1 billion simulatneous processes at once! As if you'd ever tax it even remotely that much... and yet... more power sells like hot cakes. Kind of easy to see why anything shiny attracks sales... just look at any new MMO release. Doesn't matter who good or bad the game is, everyone essentially tries it. I don't think that is ever going to change.
to be honest, I like fast and fun MMO way more than "good old" endless grind.
try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2
There are an additional reason. Any experience gets old and boring sooner or later. There are plenty of psychology literature support that. Humans always seek new experiences.
So there is little reasons for games to last forever.