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F2P is making more than TWICE as much money as P2P in the US

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  • TjedTjed Baltimore, MDPosts: 162Member
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by Tjed
    Dude, do you work for EA or PW or something?  Serious question, as I have never seen a bigger white knight for micro transaction, cash shops.  Never on any website for any game or any genre of game.... ever.  Do you?

    The fact is, a year ago these forums and other forums all over the internet were absolutely FULL of people saying "I'm not paying a subscription fee for games" and making all kinds of other anti-subscription rants.

    Those of us with half a brain already knew that the future of online entertainment was going to be in micro transactions, and we knew they would make more money too if they found smart ways to monetize.  It's inevitable, and the cat is out of the bag now.  Those of you who don't like cash shops better start getting over it, especially if you plan to play mainstream games.

    The point is, people didn't want the sub fee because it was "too expensive", so now they have cash shops so players willing to spend cash can support the cheapskates who couldn't afford a sub fee.  Do you expect these games to be created over 3-5 years and then handed to you for free?

     

    How, exactly, is prefering a $15 a month subscription fee, expecting these games to be created over 3-5 years and handed to me for free?

    Edit:  I'm also cool with $60 up front and $30 or so for an expansion.

  • DogblasterDogblaster PraguePosts: 491Member

    there are also more than twice as much freeloaders and free to play mmorpgs than true mmorpg players and p2p mmorpgs .. So ... yea

     

  • StonesDKStonesDK SomewherePosts: 1,805Member
    Originally posted by Dogblaster

    there are also more than twice as much freeloaders and free to play mmorpgs than true mmorpg players and p2p mmorpgs .. So ... yea

     

    How are you a freeloader in a free game? better yet explain how there can be twice as much as in a p2p game if a p2p has none? What's the double of none

  • MibletMiblet BognerPosts: 333Member
    Originally posted by StonesDK
    Originally posted by Dogblaster

    there are also more than twice as much freeloaders and free to play mmorpgs than true mmorpg players and p2p mmorpgs .. So ... yea

     

    How are you a freeloader in a free game? better yet explain how there can be twice as much as in a p2p game if a p2p has none? What's the double of none

    I'm assuming he meant double the number of P2P players.

    Technically while the term freeloading is a bit harsh, those who play wihout spending are being subsidised by those who do (though the ratio is higher than 2:1 for non paying:paying).  There is nothing free in this world, and whenever someone says something is free there is a catch.  F2P is no different, the servers the games run off cost money, staff costs money etc if nobody at all paid the games would simply close.

  • StonesDKStonesDK SomewherePosts: 1,805Member
    Originally posted by Miblet
    Originally posted by StonesDK
    Originally posted by Dogblaster

    there are also more than twice as much freeloaders and free to play mmorpgs than true mmorpg players and p2p mmorpgs .. So ... yea

     

    How are you a freeloader in a free game? better yet explain how there can be twice as much as in a p2p game if a p2p has none? What's the double of none

    I'm assuming he meant double the number of P2P players.

    Technically while the term freeloading is a bit harsh, those who play wihout spending are being subsidised by those who do (though the ratio is higher than 2:1 for non paying:paying).  There is nothing free in this world, and whenever someone says something is free there is a catch.  F2P is no different, the servers the games run off cost money, staff costs money etc if nobody at all paid the games would simply close.

    Free players are just as valuable because an empty game won't attract paying gamers either but you are right, I read his post wrong. As for nothing being free, plenty of games are free. You may not get access to everything but people do play the free portion forever and being content with doing so. It's more of a personal view than a universal truth

  • plutosamsplutosams Seattle, WAPosts: 49Member

    This is a very large misread of the data.  The correct title would, "F2P Market makes more than the P2P Market".  You also should be very wary of any data that company presents because their methodology section leaves much to be desired.  All you can actually say with the data presented is that P2P lost net subscribers and F2P gained net subscribing, additionally the F2P MARKET saw a net increase in revenue while the P2P market saw a net decrease.  When looked at this from a common sense perspective it doesn't take long to realize these numbers are scewed.  The sheer amount of F2P titles far outweighs the amount of P2P titles...likely meaning that revenue per game on P2P far EXCEEDS net revenue per game of F2P.

    Here is a bit of rude math.  They list 350 titles included in their data of which MMOs only account for 1 of 4 types included.   So since we have no idea what the real number of MMOs is let's just use the list that MMORPG maintains.  Of the MMOs listed with listed fee schedules and that have been released we are left with 513 titles; 46 of which list a subscription fee.  In this sample alone P2P only account for 9% of the total MMOs.  If we apply this to the number provided in the link it means 46 titles earned $86 million or $1.9 million per game (obviously certain games make much more than that).  F2P made $195 million; split among the remaining 467 games comes to $418k per game, less than 25% of the per game amount of P2P.  Mind you this is rough math, but gives a general idea of what is happening with the data.  Wording it to sound like F2P "games" make more money is erroneous.  The F2P market certainly makes more, but games do not.   Additionally, the data above includes many games that are barely making if at all, so the real number of active mmos is much smaller than the number I used here. 

    What one would very likely find in a full analysis of games is that a small handful of F2P games make enough money to stay in competition with the P2P heavy weights, but very few.  

  • MibletMiblet BognerPosts: 333Member

    I agree free players do add something to the experience in making the game world more lively and providing group members and potential new friends to meet.

    As I said there is no free.  F2P gamers that pay for nothing are merely having someone else pay for them.  Also in general if you don't pay cash and do play for free in such games you will be paying in the excess time required to do the same tasks as paying players.

  • LanfeaLanfea EssenPosts: 219Member Uncommon

    plutosams hits the nail.

     

    we have to take a closer look into the data and can't trust any flat conclusion. not long ago i saw a similiar statistic for the german mmo market. f2p-games generated nealry 75% of the overall mmo revenue in the year 2012. but in this statistic browser games, companies like zynga or bigpoint offer, were listed as f2p games aswell as any freemium game like ddo or lotro. and don't underestimate the browser game market. while the ARPPU (average revenue per paying user (per month)) generated by the cashshop in high quality browser games can reach up to 10$ the ARPPU generated in cashshops in games like gw2 or swtor are mainly below 5$. also from estimated 38 million germans who are playing mmogs only 16 million use to play client based mmos. see, games like tera, eq I & II, lotro, swtor and many more didn't went f2p because they would make money with the cashshop, they went f2p to get people into a subscription.

     

    f2p is nothing more than a heavy by marketing rules modified version of the good old 14-days-trial offer. its a good way for older high budget p2p games to get new players and fresh blood and its a must-do thing for newer mediocre games like swtor or neverwinter to reach out for a bigger customer group, people who would'nt pay 40$ only to get into the game.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by fivoroth
    No suprises there. There are only a handful P2P MMOs out there and a billion F2P asian grinders :D

    This is US data.

    And if F2P asian grinders are so popular in the US, more power to them. May be US companies can learn a thing or two.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
     

    The fact is, a year ago these forums and other forums all over the internet were absolutely FULL of people saying "I'm not paying a subscription fee for games" and making all kinds of other anti-subscription rants.

    Yeah. I am one of them. I don't see a reason to sub anymore. This explosion of the F2P market is good news. That means MORE F2P MMOs will be produced and i have more choices.

    Those of us with half a brain already knew that the future of online entertainment was going to be in micro transactions, and we knew they would make more money too if they found smart ways to monetize.  It's inevitable, and the cat is out of the bag now.  Those of you who don't like cash shops better start getting over it, especially if you plan to play mainstream games.

    I have no problems with cash shop. It is pretty easy to ignore, and i am grateful the cash shops let the whales subsidizing my games.

    The point is, people didn't want the sub fee because it was "too expensive", so now they have cash shops so players willing to spend cash can support the cheapskates who couldn't afford a sub fee.  Do you expect these games to be created over 3-5 years and then handed to you for free?

    "afford" .. i use to pay a sub to WOW .. don't see any reason to do so anymore. It is not about affordablility. It is about competition. If i can have fun for free, is there a reason not to?

    And yes, i not only expect these games to be created 3-5 years and haned to me for free ... i am actually playing them. So far the expectation is met.

     

     

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member

    Active users?

    Registered accounts?

    Who can really tell what a free to play player counts as?  People are probably counted as playing F2P games even if the person has been dead for a year.  They just aren't buying as much from the cash shop lately.

    El Psy Congroo

  • StonesDKStonesDK SomewherePosts: 1,805Member
    Originally posted by Miblet

    As I said there is no free.  F2P gamers that pay for nothing are merely having someone else pay for them.  Also in general if you don't pay cash and do play for free in such games you will be paying in the excess time required to do the same tasks as paying players.

    We will just have to disagree. If I don't pay then it's free for me. It doesn't matter if the company or others pay my way. In the end it's about me not about the next guy. So using free is a perfect way to describe something I'm not paying for. Again free players are valuable because they perform a much needed service to a F2P game namely population so in relative terms they pay with their presence.

     

    You don't sit and bicker with people, who just told you the admission to a show they are going to is free do you? If so, you would have to be a pretty annoying person to deal with on a daily basis, if you insist it isn't free because the people behind it pays rent, electricity and whatnot

  • KroxMalonKroxMalon swindonPosts: 409Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    http://2p.com/5170acba61fc1cbdad62bf61_1/March-2013-US-Digital-Games-Market-Overview.htm

     

    "Speaking of the MMO, the free-to-play MMO is definitely a trendy and have a growth of 3 million players in March, which also brings a slight improvement on monetization to $195 million. To the contrary, the pay-to-play MMO segment is going down in March and loses around 289,000 subscribers. Nonetheless, the overall revenues remained relatively stable at $86 million"

     

     

    Only if you spend the money. I personally dont.

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by plutosams
    ...likely meaning that revenue per game on P2P far EXCEEDS net revenue per game of F2P.


    This. If I were a developer, I'd rather join the profit-earning P2P market rather than the oversaturated, penny-squeezing "F2P" market. In fact, I need to find my tinfoil hat because I'm starting to think this huge "F2P" push is meant to drive competition away from the P2P market. "F2P" is the new "Greenland," luring hopeful companies to their eventual demise.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • DrakynnDrakynn The Pas, MBPosts: 2,030Member

    F2P vaters tot he two biggest groups

    Those who don't want to pay anything and will play ubtil they feel they have to spend money and leave.

    Those who want to be able to pay to not paly a game and/or gain soem perceived advantage.

    group 1 serves to make group 2 feel elite.

    Anyone inbetween is usually screwed though soem fo the newer F2P games have less aggressive microtransactions so those who don't mind paying modest price every so often can still feel competitive but this is not the norm yet.

    I am not currently palying any MMORPG.I play games for fun and liek to be immersed in a game's story and/or world to get away from the real world just like I do when I read or watch T.V.Constant reminders of real world money break my flow and lessen my fun.

    This is true of Dead Space 3 too and moblie games that cosntantly try to force you to buy more coins or energy.

    Just My Opinion but I know I'm a minority opinion.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by KroxMalon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    http://2p.com/5170acba61fc1cbdad62bf61_1/March-2013-US-Digital-Games-Market-Overview.htm

     

    "Speaking of the MMO, the free-to-play MMO is definitely a trendy and have a growth of 3 million players in March, which also brings a slight improvement on monetization to $195 million. To the contrary, the pay-to-play MMO segment is going down in March and loses around 289,000 subscribers. Nonetheless, the overall revenues remained relatively stable at $86 million"

     

     

    Only if you spend the money. I personally dont.

    Most don't. It is well known that F2P games are paid for by a few whales.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Drakynn

    F2P vaters tot he two biggest groups

    Those who don't want to pay anything and will play ubtil they feel they have to spend money and leave.

    Those who want to be able to pay to not paly a game and/or gain soem perceived advantage.

    group 1 serves to make group 2 feel elite.

    Anyone inbetween is usually screwed though soem fo the newer F2P games have less aggressive microtransactions so those who don't mind paying modest price every so often can still feel competitive but this is not the norm yet.

    I am not currently palying any MMORPG.I play games for fun and liek to be immersed in a game's story and/or world to get away from the real world just like I do when I read or watch T.V.Constant reminders of real world money break my flow and lessen my fun.

    This is true of Dead Space 3 too and moblie games that cosntantly try to force you to buy more coins or energy.

    Just My Opinion but I know I'm a minority opinion.

    There are a lot of group 1, and enough group 2, so the F2P model works wonder.

    Dead Space 3 is a fun game. I finished it without paying a cent of RMT. I am not bothered by RMT. In fact, i like RMT in D3 ... i can make some money, and retain the value of my "earnings" better (since real money in my D3 account don't depreciate like gold).

    The existence of RMT does not lessen my fun at all. I guess i am blessed that way. There are more fun games for me to play, and many are free.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by plutosams
    ...likely meaning that revenue per game on P2P far EXCEEDS net revenue per game of F2P.

     


    This. If I were a developer, I'd rather join the profit-earning P2P market rather than the oversaturated, penny-squeezing "F2P" market. In fact, I need to find my tinfoil hat because I'm starting to think this huge "F2P" push is meant to drive competition away from the P2P market. "F2P" is the new "Greenland," luring hopeful companies to their eventual demise.

    I think the P2P is in a freefall. The reason being that is F2P games can give you AS MUCH content as a P2P, why would you pay the fee? It is just ridiculous to think that way.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by plutosams
    ...likely meaning that revenue per game on P2P far EXCEEDS net revenue per game of F2P.

     


    This. If I were a developer, I'd rather join the profit-earning P2P market rather than the oversaturated, penny-squeezing "F2P" market. In fact, I need to find my tinfoil hat because I'm starting to think this huge "F2P" push is meant to drive competition away from the P2P market. "F2P" is the new "Greenland," luring hopeful companies to their eventual demise.

    I think the P2P is in a freefall. The reason being that is F2P games can give you AS MUCH content as a P2P, why would you pay the fee? It is just ridiculous to think that way.

    What? P2P is profit earning? Where have you been? p2p-only game is in decline precisely because money is taken away and goes to F2P games.

  • thinktank001thinktank001 oasisPosts: 2,027Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I think the P2P is in a freefall. The reason being that is F2P games can give you AS MUCH content as a P2P, why would you pay the fee? It is just ridiculous to think that way.

     

    Gameplay quality is terrible in cash shop model games.   Players have to either pay for the full experience, or they have to accept the fact that their experience will be less rewarding if they choose to go the " free route ".  

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by thinktank001
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I think the P2P is in a freefall. The reason being that is F2P games can give you AS MUCH content as a P2P, why would you pay the fee? It is just ridiculous to think that way.

     

    Gameplay quality is terrible in cash shop model games.   Players have to either pay for the full experience, or they have to accept the fact that their experience will be less rewarding if they choose to go the " free route ".  

    "terrible" is in the eye of the beholder.

    I played STO, DDO, DCUO, PS2 .. all are pretty fun game to me. And who cares about getting the "full" experience when the "partial" one is fun enough.

    I play game for fun, not for envy about whether the next guy has a bigger star ship.

    And yes, it is less rewarding than shelving out $100 but the question is whether it is rewarding enough.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by KroxMalon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    http://2p.com/5170acba61fc1cbdad62bf61_1/March-2013-US-Digital-Games-Market-Overview.htm

    "Speaking of the MMO, the free-to-play MMO is definitely a trendy and have a growth of 3 million players in March, which also brings a slight improvement on monetization to $195 million. To the contrary, the pay-to-play MMO segment is going down in March and loses around 289,000 subscribers. Nonetheless, the overall revenues remained relatively stable at $86 million"

    Only if you spend the money. I personally dont.

    Most don't. It is well known that F2P games are paid for by a few whales.

    Can you cite a relevant study that proves this?  I've been looking around the internet since you've been saying this, and all I can find or 4 and 5 year old studies which are really outdated.

    Is there something from 2012 or 2013 that breaks down 2012 F2P and shows whales as the primary revenue source?  Is this true only for Eastern publishers or also Western publishers as well?

    The market has changed dramatically in the last year and it would be interesting to see how things break down now?

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by thinktank001
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I think the P2P is in a freefall. The reason being that is F2P games can give you AS MUCH content as a P2P, why would you pay the fee? It is just ridiculous to think that way.

    Gameplay quality is terrible in cash shop model games.   Players have to either pay for the full experience, or they have to accept the fact that their experience will be less rewarding if they choose to go the " free route ".  

    Ah yeah, the old vague hypothetical argument.  "Unidentified thing x is much worse than unidentified thing y" in my personal made up world of make believe.

    If you're comparing Crystal Saga to WoW then you might have a point.  If you're comparing WoW, Rift, and EVE to say Tera, GW2, STO, TSW, or EQ2, then I'm going to have to disagree.

    By the way, how rewarding is it for someone who doesn't pay up in a P2P game?  You know if they go the "free route".  Oh, that's right they can't even play so the non-paying route in a sub-locked game isn't very rewarding at all is it?

  • nbtscannbtscan Phoenix, AZPosts: 774Member Uncommon
    It's hard to believe that between WoW, Rift, EVE and FFXI (can't think of any other subscription games at the moment that are live) that they're not making more than F2P games in the U.S.  I guess with game populations such as TERA, GW2 and SW:TOR it's not outside the realm of possibility though.
  • BattlerockBattlerock Youngstown, OHPosts: 1,393Member
    The numbers are only a testament of pc gaming suppression in 2013
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