Originally posted by Eir_S What did TSW do that made it fail so hard?
The core gameplay (combat) isn't very good. Yes, there will be some people that love it, and will just claim everyone else needs to learn how the skills work, etc, but the fact is the combat is slow and boring.
That said, it's more fun during "boss" fights in dungeons, because there really is a lot going on and you're constantly moving and jumping around. Everything else though, feels like bad design.
You can now buy The Secret World for 15$ , this is aproximately same as one month subscription we used to pay for MMOs almost year ago.
This is where MMO companies had led themselves by constant failure to listen to the players and instead insist on greed and plagiarism.
They wanted to make big bucks like WoW , but instead sell the whole game for one subscription.
Well done.
This tread is not against TSW, but against all the industry and its failure.
TSW itself is a great game. Probably would be quite sucessful MMO if it came before people started to be fed with all the themepark bull. People just dont want that , never did.
Whole point of MMO is to be a virtual world we can influence and change. Not singleplayer game with other people in it.
Game creators will do what ever they think vill bring in the most money for them.
Except as we've seen, what publishers think will sell has NOT been what's actually sold, hence the failure of almost every AAA MMORPG since 2004. They won't do what we actually want.
So a growing market financially, demographically and numerically has been failing since 2004?
Yes. DDO crashed and burned, and LotRO limped along. Vanguard crashed. Age of Conan crashed HARD. WAR crashed. SWTOR crashed. Rift crashed. TSW crashed. TR crashed. Star Trek crashed. DC crashed.
Every single AAA MMORPG has had to lay off staff and merge servers within a few months of launch.
That is not the sign of a successful industry. Especially when compared to the long term steady growth of pre WoW non themepark MMOs.
Sell it as buy to play, and don't pretend its an MMO and then they're all set.
However, all their marketing went into pretending it was an MMO. And honestly, it would have been a hundred times better has a singleplayer/coop game. That way the plot could actually impact the world, and not be dragged out to get longer subs.
Yeh .. and isn't that what they have done?
It's what they've done after they tricked customers into thinking it was an MMO, lost a shit ton of money and credibility, and scrambled to lower the price.
Not all pre-wow games had long term steady growth, many had decreasing subscribers. Daoc dropped, Shadowbane dropped, AC dropped. Perhaps not immediatley after the initial launch but within a short period of time. I'm sure there are several more.
But it true that many games have had a hard time.
It is also true that there are more people playing than ever before.
It is also true that there are more games and more money than ever before.
It is also true that post wow numbers for games are equal to pre-wow numbers for games.
However the games themselves have become way way more expensive to make.
There had to be a shake-up and it is going on now.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I can't speak for anyone else, but TSW felt like every game before it. Combat was arcaic and boring, skill wheel felt a little more than a gimmick... it wasn't released in a particularly good state either: It was unfinished.
Funcom happened.
Have they ever had a succesful launch?
I really would like to know what felt like every game before TSW, I mean most of what I read on these forums often speak mainly about the skills or combat, hardly do I read people speaking about the game, the lore, the settings, the story and how it's connected ...or not.
However due to how people complain about games gives me a very good indication that it's often a persons playstyle and not so much the game. Unless a person actually speaks about the game instead of just a few "important" feature's.
As for OP, as VengeSunsoar wrote to me it also seems that developers seem to listen to the "new" majority unless a person is only stuck with using mmorpg.com then I could understand them thinking differently.
TSW fails because like others montioned, they listened to the community. That is always a mistake, just like in politics. People don't really know what they want or need; it is up to the leaders and the intellectuals to know what's best for the people and make it happen.
The community says they want things easier, more casual; that's promoting a welfare system and in a welfare system you incentivize laziness and mediocrity. Make a MMO too easy and you have the same problem. Games need to be challenging, difficult to amass wealth and the best items and allow the elite to stand above the rest. It keeps the less-skilled or less-devoted players in the game because although they will never get everything the elite players get they will be guided by the dream.
The community doesn't want to have to grind; again, that's another way to say they don't want to work for their character progression. The grind needs to exist, but with the grind must be the game functionality that makes the grind enjoyable and fulfilling. Of course players don't want to have to grind, but when it comes down to it, grind = the game experience.
The community thinks it wants a classless system; classes and roles are the backbone of MMO's and you take away any idea of your character being unique and special when everyone can all be the same.
The community is done with elves and orcs and wants something different: Oh, they are not done... games like TSW prove that we all really prefer magic, swords and armor over guns, regular clothing and all that modern or post-apocalyptic nonsense.
The community wants pvp balance for all 1v1 matchups; That doesn't happen in the real world and it shouldn't be something that an MMO really needs to be concerned with. If the MMO has minimal pvp then who cares and if it has alot then rock/paper/scissors balancing is best; it's also more strategic and challenging.
Sell it as buy to play, and don't pretend its an MMO and then they're all set.
However, all their marketing went into pretending it was an MMO. And honestly, it would have been a hundred times better has a singleplayer/coop game. That way the plot could actually impact the world, and not be dragged out to get longer subs.
Yeh .. and isn't that what they have done?
It's what they've done after they tricked customers into thinking it was an MMO, lost a shit ton of money and credibility, and scrambled to lower the price.
They're still trying to call it an MMO though.
It *is* an MMO. Just that it is better played as a SP game. I don't disagree that they botched their marketing .. but certianly they agree that it is not worth a sub.
Whether they call it a MMO or a SP/co-op game is really not that relevant. What they ask the customers to pay is.
Originally posted by Eir_S What did TSW do that made it fail so hard?
One thing I suspect is that TSW fell in the uncanny valley. Most comments I see are about the animations and character art (especially the females). They were shooting for photoreal and missed. This should have been noticed in alpha and fixed, but I guess it wasn't.
edit: spelling
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
You can now buy The Secret World for 15$ , this is aproximately same as one month subscription we used to pay for MMOs almost year ago.
This is where MMO companies had led themselves by constant failure to listen to the players and instead insist on greed and plagiarism.
They wanted to make big bucks like WoW , but instead sell the whole game for one subscription.
Well done.
This tread is not against TSW, but against all the industry and its failure.
TSW itself is a great game. Probably would be quite sucessful MMO if it came before people started to be fed with all the themepark bull. People just dont want that , never did.
Whole point of MMO is to be a virtual world we can influence and change. Not singleplayer game with other people in it.
Game creators will do what ever they think vill bring in the most money for them.
Except as we've seen, what publishers think will sell has NOT been what's actually sold, hence the failure of almost every AAA MMORPG since 2004. They won't do what we actually want.
So a growing market financially, demographically and numerically has been failing since 2004?
Yes. DDO crashed and burned, and LotRO limped along. Vanguard crashed. Age of Conan crashed HARD. WAR crashed. SWTOR crashed. Rift crashed. TSW crashed. TR crashed. Star Trek crashed. DC crashed.
Every single AAA MMORPG has had to lay off staff and merge servers within a few months of launch.
That is not the sign of a successful industry. Especially when compared to the long term steady growth of pre WoW non themepark MMOs.
You said failed (and conveniently changed it to crashed) that means no longer around, Tabula Rasa is a failed MMO, Vanguard isn't and is actually 6 years old, pretty amazing for failed MMO, and comparing a fledgling market of 10 MMO's to a mature market of a hundred is ludicrous, players played and left but that does not mean the games failed, the market is evolving but many of the older playerbase is not and you know what Darwin said about that? All those games are still going except TR and a few are fluorishing with a revised revenue model DDO, LoTRO, STO, DCUO, SWTOR. LotRO has just announced its 5th expansion, DDO is getting a second, STO has just announced its first expansion, DCUO has had 5 major DLC packs made and a further 3 announced for this year, SWTOR has just released its first expansion, these are not the actions of a failed industry.
So keep those rose tinited glass on and be a antagonistic miserablist cynic for the rest of your days like many others on this site. In a fledging industry you'll put up with more shit than normal because there are no other options and later filter the bad from the good, in a mature market you go to a competitor. The money in this industry is massive now compared to its beginnings and its getting bigger all the time, or do you ignore Nariusseldon's posts about the scale of the money being generated? and you still cannot concede that this is a successful industry, the mind boggles.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
You said failed (and conveniently changed it to crashed) that means no longer around, Tabula Rasa is a failed MMO, Vanguard isn't and is actually 6 years old, pretty amazing for failed MMO, and comparing a fledgling market of 10 MMO's to a mature market of a hundred is ludicrous, players played and left but that does not mean the games failed, the market is evolving but many of the older playerbase is not and you know what Darwin said about that? All those games are still going except TR and a few are fluorishing with a revised revenue model DDO, LoTRO, STO, DCUO, SWTOR. LotRO has just announced its 5th expansion, DDO is getting a second, STO has just announced its first expansion, DCUO has had 5 major DLC packs made and a further 3 announced for this year, SWTOR has just released its first expansion, these are not the actions of a failed industry.
Yeah .. hard to say a game is failing when more content is produced. SWG has failed. CoH has failed. Tabula Rasa has failed. Not STO, DDO, LOTRO .. they are in fact thriving.
If we are going to define "failure" as when a game closes, then we have to acknowledge that games "fail" for political reasons more than reasons related to popularity or revenue.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
There is a player that is asking for every and anything at any given time, and most of developers actions fall within one players demands or another. It's more a subject of using good judgement, not listening or obeying customers.
Developers and publishers should be great observers, and come up with better solutions than non-professional critics, if they can't do that, then what are they being paid for?
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
If we are going to define "failure" as when a game closes, then we have to acknowledge that games "fail" for political reasons more than reasons related to popularity or revenue.
Sure. But none of those closed games are bringing in a lot of revenue. If they are bringing in WOW numbers, you think there is a chance they will be closed?
"Funny grotesque" doesn't matter to the players who didn't buy though. The Barbie game could have a part where she sells her Corvette for crack money. That's not going to matter to the people who didn't buy the game because the initial premise wasn't appealing.
Theme is a major element in whether someone buys or doesn't buy a game, whether or not you realize it. I'm simply not going to buy a Barbie game, and some MMORPG gamers aren't going to buy a horror game or a modern game or a game without a particularly clear theme.
WOW quests aren't particularly replayable either, yet it persists. Higher quality questing mechanisms aren't the problem unless they start to interfere with actual gameplay (don't contain gameplay themselves, or aren't easily skipped.)
Sort of hilarious to call the RPG which probably has the most consequential story decisions of any RPG ever "lite on RPG", but sure it has an atypical combat system (although are people questioning Skyrim and Fallout's RPG just because it uses atypical FPS combat too?)
Personally I don't care if a game is "very standard" in its setup. All that matters is the moment-to-moment gameplay of each fight being at least as fun as WOW's. Thus far, few have come close (RIFT/CoH) and most (TSW included, despite being above average) are pretty far away.
Yes theme is major thing. It is important for me as well. I won't even cosndier playing i.e. Wildstar because I don't like it's theme. Same as you I would not play Barbie game either. It's not like I don't agree. I think that even with other theme TSW would have slim chances at succeding, because of it's other characteristics. Does other theme might have increased it's chances - propably yes.
Quests in TSW and Swtor and way how their worlds are buitt - zoned, instanced, cutscenized and personalized - bring features like animated cutscenes at expense of other features. Some people perceive it at higher quality and some other don't. Considering what audience TSW actually drawed initially (more core / hardcore one) - and amount of complaints about this - I would say that it might have driven off significant amount of people that tried it. Just because some mechanic or feature works in one mmorpg - it does not matter that it will work or won't work in other.
ME feel like interactive cinematic story, game that is stricly divided in completly separated into 'interactive movie' and 'shooter' parts rather than rpg. There are many games in which choice matter yet they're not perceived as rpg. Anyway - rpg - definition was always point of argument. It was 15 years ago, it is now and propably will be in future. I.e. I don't consider D3 or PoE as rpg. It's a subjective opinion.
I also don't personally care if game is standard or not. Innovative or new is not automatically better just because it's new. Metric of idea or feature is not a deciding factor that make it enjoyable or not. I simply noticed that TSW is not really innovative contrary to what developers say and by being very 'standard' it put itself against seasoned and strong competition. It's propably not a good idea to advertise as innovative and then propose more of the same to your playerbase.
Comments
The core gameplay (combat) isn't very good. Yes, there will be some people that love it, and will just claim everyone else needs to learn how the skills work, etc, but the fact is the combat is slow and boring.
That said, it's more fun during "boss" fights in dungeons, because there really is a lot going on and you're constantly moving and jumping around. Everything else though, feels like bad design.
You make me like charity
Yes. DDO crashed and burned, and LotRO limped along. Vanguard crashed. Age of Conan crashed HARD. WAR crashed. SWTOR crashed. Rift crashed. TSW crashed. TR crashed. Star Trek crashed. DC crashed.
Every single AAA MMORPG has had to lay off staff and merge servers within a few months of launch.
That is not the sign of a successful industry. Especially when compared to the long term steady growth of pre WoW non themepark MMOs.
It's what they've done after they tricked customers into thinking it was an MMO, lost a shit ton of money and credibility, and scrambled to lower the price.
They're still trying to call it an MMO though.
Not all pre-wow games had long term steady growth, many had decreasing subscribers. Daoc dropped, Shadowbane dropped, AC dropped. Perhaps not immediatley after the initial launch but within a short period of time. I'm sure there are several more.
But it true that many games have had a hard time.
It is also true that there are more people playing than ever before.
It is also true that there are more games and more money than ever before.
It is also true that post wow numbers for games are equal to pre-wow numbers for games.
However the games themselves have become way way more expensive to make.
There had to be a shake-up and it is going on now.
IMO it is a good thing. Fewer MMOs are shutting down.
It shows that developers are more willing to change to survive than to try and fail with their restricted decisions.
I really would like to know what felt like every game before TSW, I mean most of what I read on these forums often speak mainly about the skills or combat, hardly do I read people speaking about the game, the lore, the settings, the story and how it's connected ...or not.
However due to how people complain about games gives me a very good indication that it's often a persons playstyle and not so much the game. Unless a person actually speaks about the game instead of just a few "important" feature's.
As for OP, as VengeSunsoar wrote to me it also seems that developers seem to listen to the "new" majority unless a person is only stuck with using mmorpg.com then I could understand them thinking differently.
TSW fails because like others montioned, they listened to the community. That is always a mistake, just like in politics. People don't really know what they want or need; it is up to the leaders and the intellectuals to know what's best for the people and make it happen.
The community says they want things easier, more casual; that's promoting a welfare system and in a welfare system you incentivize laziness and mediocrity. Make a MMO too easy and you have the same problem. Games need to be challenging, difficult to amass wealth and the best items and allow the elite to stand above the rest. It keeps the less-skilled or less-devoted players in the game because although they will never get everything the elite players get they will be guided by the dream.
The community doesn't want to have to grind; again, that's another way to say they don't want to work for their character progression. The grind needs to exist, but with the grind must be the game functionality that makes the grind enjoyable and fulfilling. Of course players don't want to have to grind, but when it comes down to it, grind = the game experience.
The community thinks it wants a classless system; classes and roles are the backbone of MMO's and you take away any idea of your character being unique and special when everyone can all be the same.
The community is done with elves and orcs and wants something different: Oh, they are not done... games like TSW prove that we all really prefer magic, swords and armor over guns, regular clothing and all that modern or post-apocalyptic nonsense.
The community wants pvp balance for all 1v1 matchups; That doesn't happen in the real world and it shouldn't be something that an MMO really needs to be concerned with. If the MMO has minimal pvp then who cares and if it has alot then rock/paper/scissors balancing is best; it's also more strategic and challenging.
It *is* an MMO. Just that it is better played as a SP game. I don't disagree that they botched their marketing .. but certianly they agree that it is not worth a sub.
Whether they call it a MMO or a SP/co-op game is really not that relevant. What they ask the customers to pay is.
One thing I suspect is that TSW fell in the uncanny valley. Most comments I see are about the animations and character art (especially the females). They were shooting for photoreal and missed. This should have been noticed in alpha and fixed, but I guess it wasn't.
edit: spelling
You said failed (and conveniently changed it to crashed) that means no longer around, Tabula Rasa is a failed MMO, Vanguard isn't and is actually 6 years old, pretty amazing for failed MMO, and comparing a fledgling market of 10 MMO's to a mature market of a hundred is ludicrous, players played and left but that does not mean the games failed, the market is evolving but many of the older playerbase is not and you know what Darwin said about that? All those games are still going except TR and a few are fluorishing with a revised revenue model DDO, LoTRO, STO, DCUO, SWTOR. LotRO has just announced its 5th expansion, DDO is getting a second, STO has just announced its first expansion, DCUO has had 5 major DLC packs made and a further 3 announced for this year, SWTOR has just released its first expansion, these are not the actions of a failed industry.
So keep those rose tinited glass on and be a antagonistic miserablist cynic for the rest of your days like many others on this site. In a fledging industry you'll put up with more shit than normal because there are no other options and later filter the bad from the good, in a mature market you go to a competitor. The money in this industry is massive now compared to its beginnings and its getting bigger all the time, or do you ignore Nariusseldon's posts about the scale of the money being generated? and you still cannot concede that this is a successful industry, the mind boggles.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Yeah .. hard to say a game is failing when more content is produced. SWG has failed. CoH has failed. Tabula Rasa has failed. Not STO, DDO, LOTRO .. they are in fact thriving.
If we are going to define "failure" as when a game closes, then we have to acknowledge that games "fail" for political reasons more than reasons related to popularity or revenue.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Developers and publishers should be great observers, and come up with better solutions than non-professional critics, if they can't do that, then what are they being paid for?
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
Sure. But none of those closed games are bringing in a lot of revenue. If they are bringing in WOW numbers, you think there is a chance they will be closed?
Yes theme is major thing. It is important for me as well. I won't even cosndier playing i.e. Wildstar because I don't like it's theme. Same as you I would not play Barbie game either. It's not like I don't agree. I think that even with other theme TSW would have slim chances at succeding, because of it's other characteristics. Does other theme might have increased it's chances - propably yes.
Quests in TSW and Swtor and way how their worlds are buitt - zoned, instanced, cutscenized and personalized - bring features like animated cutscenes at expense of other features. Some people perceive it at higher quality and some other don't. Considering what audience TSW actually drawed initially (more core / hardcore one) - and amount of complaints about this - I would say that it might have driven off significant amount of people that tried it. Just because some mechanic or feature works in one mmorpg - it does not matter that it will work or won't work in other.
ME feel like interactive cinematic story, game that is stricly divided in completly separated into 'interactive movie' and 'shooter' parts rather than rpg. There are many games in which choice matter yet they're not perceived as rpg. Anyway - rpg - definition was always point of argument. It was 15 years ago, it is now and propably will be in future. I.e. I don't consider D3 or PoE as rpg. It's a subjective opinion.
I also don't personally care if game is standard or not. Innovative or new is not automatically better just because it's new. Metric of idea or feature is not a deciding factor that make it enjoyable or not. I simply noticed that TSW is not really innovative contrary to what developers say and by being very 'standard' it put itself against seasoned and strong competition. It's propably not a good idea to advertise as innovative and then propose more of the same to your playerbase.