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"Free to play" really just means "we're not going to tell you how much we intend to make you pay or

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  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Most F2P setups are pretty up front about what kind of experience you'll get "for free" or whatever.  I look at F2P as more of a "we're not even going to try and retain you as a customer for more than a few months" kind of game.  Which sucks for the players who actually like to invest in an mmo.

    You make me like charity

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by botrytis

     P2P aren't because they need a specific amount of people to pay in order to make money. It is really that simple.

    elaborate on the quoted part. why do P2P need a specific ammount of people and F2P don't ?

     

    is it because P2P having a fixed rate can only increase revenue by increasing playerbase whereas F2P can do so by increasing prices ?

     

     

     

     

    Pretty easy - many F2P games more people spend money in the CS (even in a very little) while people will try a P2P and leave if is not exactly what they wanted, recently. Notice all the P2P games going F2P and wonder why? SWTOR, TSW and TERA are examples. What game has come out  RECENTLY that has STAYED P2P?

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • chaintmchaintm Chicago, ILPosts: 972Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Most games are pretty up front. You can check out the cashshop the moment you first log into the game.

    Which is to say, they won't tell you until after you download the game and start playing.  And even then, it takes a while to understand just how strong the things in the item mall are or aren't.  And even if you know what's in the item mall today, what's there in a month won't necessarily be all that similar--especially if they're relying heavily on random boxes with constantly changing contents.

    Yeah thats my feelings on it as well, nothing up front but take a few hours to download try it out ! "Ok , we got them in game tease them with some good stuff till about level 10, then throw that you should try the store " basicly the grind takes hold. Meh this model is getting old quick.

    "The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"

  • FangrimFangrim PrestonPosts: 589Member
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    I prefer to know a game's business model up front before deciding whether to play it.  When a company advertises a game as "free to play", they're trying to hide the business model, as they're never going to truly give away everything for free.  Do you think "free to play" will eventually become a derogatory term that marketers avoid for that reason?

    Nope, simply because almost everyone already knows what the term means and most are fine with it. Never confuse the general concensus here with reality of the rest of the world.

    Almost everyone knows what "free to play" means?  I certainly don't.  Just about everything gets described as "free to play" these days, even with business models that five years ago would have been called a subscription game or buy to play or some such.

    Can you give an example of one of the free to play games where you are confused whether it is subscription or free to play? In the meantime, here's the definition of almost. ;)

    SWTOR and EQ2  :P

    I play eq2 for free.No new xpacs you need to pay for will be released anymore.We just today got a whole new zone with dungeons and raid zone in it.All 100% free full game,you just need to know how to make plat and buy krono.I will play forever for free.

    Gnome Wankers two.After the events of 18/07/2015 i fucking hate anyone that has anything to do with skyforge
    image

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by botrytis

     

    many F2P games more people spend money in the CS (even in a very little) while people will try a P2P and leave if is not exactly what they wanted, recently..

    I'm trying to follow but I don't understand what you mean.

     

    "while people will try a P2P and leave if is not exactly what they wanted, recently.."

     

    I get what you're saying. I don't know if it's true or not but I understand.

     

    "many F2P games more people spend money in the CS (even in a very little)"

     

    here I don't understand. You're saying a F2P game is helped by the fact that there are many F2P games for people to spend a little bit in the cash shop ? Or are you saying that some F2P will survive because in some F2P players will pay a little. I don't...get how "many F2P" will help any individual f2p out of those many.

     

    or perhaps did you mean "in many F2P games people spend very little in the CS".

     

    I'm not clear as to which noun the "many" is attached to, basically. Are you claiming F2P is sustained by many little transactions while P2P is not sustained by few big transactions ? That's the best I can do with what I quoted. And it might be true, I imagine it's a case-by-case scenario dependent on dev expenses. Which then tie into quality. which then point at F2P being 'cheaply made'. Which leads own the "failed P2P go F2P, F2p is where MMOs die" and all that.

     

    I guess i haven't learned anything new here afterall...YET.

     

     

    image

  • VelocinoxVelocinox Old Folks Home, CAPosts: 808Member Uncommon
    Then don't play

    'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


    When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.


    No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.


    How to become a millionaire:
    Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member

    On a slightly-related note, here's my method of deciding if a F2P game is worth it (assuming it actually looks interesting and gamplay is fun).

    If I can get to nearly a full-game experience by spending less than $15 a month in the cash shop, then I won't complain.  SWtOR is a good example of how a F2P game can be setup pretty well, despite the criticism.  For roughly $40,  you can get account unlocks which remove all restrictions other than the field rez limit.  You still advance slower, and you still have to buy weekly passes for warzones or flashpoints or ops (at the end game mainly), but the cost of the occassional xp booster (not required) and passes for whatever end-game stuff you do, namely operations, work out to about half the cost of a subscription.

    The only exception is if you are a real hardcore player, and do several ops a week, every week, and are constantly farming hardmodes and stuff.  At that point, a subscription is probably worth it.

    You make me like charity

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,290Member Uncommon

    swtor's f2p bugged me.  IT's the only game I played where I was constantly reminded about buying something.  The UI locks (told that is gone now though) and evey time I turned in a quest was the reward window telling you what you could get.

    It just got annoying.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    swtor's f2p bugged me.  IT's the only game I played where I was constantly reminded about buying something.  The UI locks (told that is gone now though) and evey time I turned in a quest was the reward window telling you what you could get.

    It just got annoying.

    Notifications go away as you unlock stuff.  Hell, you can even buy unlocks with in-game credits from the GTN if you really want to get cheap about it.

    You make me like charity

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,765Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by WW4BW

     Europeans are far more comfortable with the idea that you pay once (tax) and then you dont have to think with your wallet every time you feel a bit under the weather. So we know how much we spent. And we know how much we can spend on fun and food.. Getting sick might keep us from working. But it wont saddle us with crippling medical expenses on top ot that.

    And how did that work out for them? Greece, Spain, Cyrus ...

    Germany, England, Norway, Sweden, Denmark...

     

    I don't think you have an argument here. It works better for some worse for others ue to factors that have nothing to di with the topic at hand.

    That's really irrelevant to this thread.  Would you say that subscription games are doing well in Europe and nothing there gets marketed as "free to play"?  Because if the revenue models that MMORPGs use in Europe are about the as in the US, then you're reduced to explaining the origin of differences that don't even exist.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,765Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MadnessRealm
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    I prefer to know a game's business model up front before deciding whether to play it.  When a company advertises a game as "free to play", they're trying to hide the business model, as they're never going to truly give away everything for free.  Do you think "free to play" will eventually become a derogatory term that marketers avoid for that reason?

    I disagree that they're trying to hide the business model. I find that notion to be quite odd.

    I get that having to download a game to find out the content of it's cash shop to be a bit of a turn off, but I wouldn't consider that "hiding" the cash shop. Just like you won't know if you like say, Skyrim, unless you spend $60 to play the game. They're not hiding the game. The only difference is that for F2Ps, you don't have to spend any money at all to play.

    If they tell you that the price tag is $60, then of course they're not hiding it.  "Free to play" is more akin to saying, play for a while and then we'll tell you the price tag later.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,765Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    I prefer to know a game's business model up front before deciding whether to play it.  When a company advertises a game as "free to play", they're trying to hide the business model, as they're never going to truly give away everything for free.  Do you think "free to play" will eventually become a derogatory term that marketers avoid for that reason?

    Subscription is, " We'll never tell you how bad the game's going to be or how poorly it's at launch or the fact that we'll add an additional cash shop on the side. Heck we might never add any content to the short lifespan our game has. But you'll have to blindly trust us with you 15 dollar donations up front."

     See what I did there? Stop it.

    You can have a free trial on a subscription game.  Games have done that for a long time.  Now a subscription game with a free trial will be marketed as "free to play", though, which further confuses the issue.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,290Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    swtor's f2p bugged me.  IT's the only game I played where I was constantly reminded about buying something.  The UI locks (told that is gone now though) and evey time I turned in a quest was the reward window telling you what you could get.

    It just got annoying.

    Notifications go away as you unlock stuff.  Hell, you can even buy unlocks with in-game credits from the GTN if you really want to get cheap about it.

     Would the reward one change?  it showed your reward and then a sub reward, think there was a 3rd one too, can't recall.  Unless you had a sub that notification wouldn't change right?

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • WW4BWWW4BW KoldingPosts: 493Member

    Sorry for steering the discussion off topic... was precisely why I was loathe to get in to it in the first place. But "when someone is wrong on the internet", noone, least of all myself can leave it alone.

     Few things I want to weigh in on though:

     Americans do play F2P more often than Europeans. (or so it was when last I saw some number ages ago) If that is no longer the case, then I was trying to explain away a moot point.

     As for who started the credit crunch , burst the financial bubble, screwed us all. Well its Wall street, the banks, "homeowners who put themselves underwater thinking they could always flip the house for more later on.. And then PANIC. And for greece, retiring at 50 is probably too early for a sustainable economy. Personally Im doing fine and havent felt the whole disaster.. But then again I rent.

    I was going to post something on topic.. but I just hit the wall and need sleep

     

  • WW4BWWW4BW KoldingPosts: 493Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by Quizzical
     

    You can have a free trial on a subscription game.  Games have done that for a long time.  Now a subscription game with a free trial will be marketed as "free to play", though, which further confuses the issue.

     With the phrase: "Play for FREE" at any rate.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,731Member Uncommon
    /shrug....All I know is I have paid considerably less for f2p games than I ever did for p2p games.....I think they are a great deal though I guess I am in the minority.
  • udonudon Durham, NCPosts: 1,797Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    I prefer to know a game's business model up front before deciding whether to play it.  When a company advertises a game as "free to play", they're trying to hide the business model, as they're never going to truly give away everything for free.  Do you think "free to play" will eventually become a derogatory term that marketers avoid for that reason?

    When was the last MMO like B2P or Sub game that was any different?  Clothing, XP pots, potions, gambling box keys, etc. all show up in every MMO regradless of pay model in some form or anouther to the point where these different models are more about cost of entry than they are anything else.

    B2P with a cash shop is just a F2P game with a upfront cost.  Is there really a difference between that and preordering a founders pack from a F2P game that gives you everything you need to get started?

    Sub games with a cash shop just give you the features you would likely be buying anyways in a convinent monthy fee.  There are still always more items you could be buying the cash shop if you liked as well.

    They are all just the same business model wrapped up slightly differently.

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    swtor's f2p bugged me.  IT's the only game I played where I was constantly reminded about buying something.  The UI locks (told that is gone now though) and evey time I turned in a quest was the reward window telling you what you could get.

    It just got annoying.

    Notifications go away as you unlock stuff.  Hell, you can even buy unlocks with in-game credits from the GTN if you really want to get cheap about it.

     Would the reward one change?  it showed your reward and then a sub reward, think there was a 3rd one too, can't recall.  Unless you had a sub that notification wouldn't change right?

    I think you're right about that one.  I never worried about it, personally, because the "locked" reward always seemed to be a loot box (usually the basic green one).  

    You make me like charity

  • thinktank001thinktank001 oasisPosts: 2,027Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    I prefer to know a game's business model up front before deciding whether to play it.  When a company advertises a game as "free to play", they're trying to hide the business model, as they're never going to truly give away everything for free.  Do you think "free to play" will eventually become a derogatory term that marketers avoid for that reason?

     

    I doubt it will ever become a derogatory term.   Publishers use it as a marketing term to get players to check out their game.  It really doesn't have anything to do with the business model.  P2W more accurately describes how these companies earn their money, and I see P2W becoming more of the main stream term used by players.  

     

    IMHO, the only way F2P will ever disappear from advertisements is when lawmakers step in, and that time may be soon now that EA is looking in the direction of the cash shop model.  

  • PAL-18PAL-18 AnachronoxPosts: 802Member

    p2p ,get all content for ~15$ per month.

    f2p ,pay 1000$ per day and still you miss something.

     

    So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.
    By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
    **On the radar:http://cyberpunk.net/**

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon

    F2P games are not free, people are blind.

    Do you honestly think someone would come up with an idea, produce it, and advertize it only to give it away free?

    You are either going to be gimped or pay out the butt in the cash shop. Either of those choices just suxx

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Onomas

    Do you honestly think someone would come up with an idea, produce it, and advertize it only to give it away free?

    addictinggames.com

    image

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by Onomas

    Do you honestly think someone would come up with an idea, produce it, and advertize it only to give it away free?

    addictinggames.com

    You arent honestly comparing those trashy little games to mmorpgs are you?

     

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,421Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    I prefer to know a game's business model up front before deciding whether to play it.  When a company advertises a game as "free to play", they're trying to hide the business model, as they're never going to truly give away everything for free.  Do you think "free to play" will eventually become a derogatory term that marketers avoid for that reason?

    I don't think of it like that.

    If I know it's f2p, I expect I can play a good portion of the game free, however I also expect that the devs will try and get me to pay something.  How much I pay is up to me.

    Doesn't seem very hidden to me. 

    I don't think it will be become derogatory.  I think it was derogatory and is becoming more accepted, I expect that to continue. 

    Well yes you are correect but there is more to it than that.F2P games are designed to run and operate cheaper to support the no sub model.Also with no income to recover they are going to limit how much  they invest.You are almost guaranteed an inferior product technically and overall content is most likely lacking as well.GM and support msot likely lacking as well.Content and updates probably also lacking.So many are being mislead by F2p games adding in content after releasing a very shallow game.You should not get credit for releasing  half a game then bringing in parts slowly along the way.

    My point is that F2P games tend to be already a bit or a lot weaker than a full fledged subbed game.So now add in the fact the yare going to further dumb that game down to force you to pay,so now you really get an inferior product.Plus just the fact theat you are not able to play the full game as intended by design is really bad as well.

    There are only two benefits to this design,one if you simply do not have money ,it allows you some access.The second thing is becuase it allows some access to players who  would not be there otherwise,it keeps the game world some what busy looking so that paying customers don't have an empty looking world.

    There is absolutely no benefit to the game or it's design,only possible detriments.


    Samoan Diamond

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by Nikecow
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Yamota

    In a single player or co-op game then the F2P mentality of paying whatever you feel like to pay for, might work. However in a competetive game it is completely ridicilous to allow for shortcuts, if you open your wallet.

    So don't play competitively It's quite simple really.  Stop acting like playing a game is just an excuse to swing your e-peen around.  It's not.

    I find this an highly idiotic statement. You can't dismiss something like that so easily. It only shows how ignorant you are.

    About F2P. I hate the model. I wish Pay per month would get more popular again ;/

    Sure you can, you can make a choice.  Nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to be competitive.  It's like going out to play basketball with your friends.  You can either be hyper-competitive and probably piss everyone else off or you can just have a good time, not worry about the score and just toss the ball around.

    You're choosing the first option.  I'm choosing the second.  It's your call.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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