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F2P is making more than TWICE as much money as P2P in the US

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  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Originally posted by XAPKen

    Times change, markets change, tech changes, games change, payment models adapt.

     

    I think Scarlet Blade is a great example.  Have you ever seen anyone say it should be monetized as box plus subscription?  I doubt it.  Now ask yourself why is that.

     

    Exactly. This F2P crap is actually made it so that more low quality, garbage MMOs can be released because it will be F2P and they will be able to dupe a few weak-minded people to fork out houndreds of dollars for playing a freaking video game.

  • CecropiaCecropia Posts: 3,472Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by aWRAY
    Originally posted by Tjed

    Fair enough, and I actually do enjoy reading your posts as a counter argument to some people that get overly emotional about things.  You stay very grounded in facts which I can respect.  I have just never seen anyone so passionate about free gaming. 

    I doubt he is "passionate" about the posts he makes about f2p vs everything else. Judging by his post count and how often he is engaging in conversation on this website, I'd make the assumption that his "passion" is entirely ego driven. 

    He is trying to be the "white knight of f2p". Every new thread is the same old "f2p is better than the rest look at statistics!

    It amazes me how much energy people can put into this nonsense. To me this shit is completely transparent, but I can't figure out how some of these "regulars" fly under the radar when they behave this way so often.

    Like RefMinor, I knew who made this yet another thread just by reading the subject. That's when you know it's bad ;)

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon

     


    Originally posted by RefMinor
    [mod edit]

     


    As did most of us, lol. "F2P" is a bubble, nothing more. It may last years, but it will burst when enough players get burned by it.


    The title is misleading. "Making twice the revenue" is irrelevant unless you look at costs. Did it take $400 million in "F2P" game development costs to generate that $186 million? Regarding P2P, what, if any, major development efforts went into P2P games last year? And yet they still made $86 million.


    Seems to me like P2P is in the green and "F2P" is in the red.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by RefMinor
    [mod edit]


     


    As did most of us, lol. "F2P" is a bubble, nothing more. It may last years, but it will burst when enough players get burned by it.


    The title is misleading. "Making twice the revenue" is irrelevant unless you look at costs. Did it take $400 million in "F2P" game development costs to generate that $186 million? Regarding P2P, what, if any, major development efforts went into P2P games last year? And yet they still made $86 million.


    Seems to me like P2P is in the green and "F2P" is in the red.

    That kinda of goes against the belief that f2p games are low budget in/out quick peices of crap doesn't it.  If they are, and p2p are not, then f2p would have an even greater profit margin.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,474Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by kadepsyson

    Also, the numbers seem really far off from what I'd expect.  For example, if $86 million is the total revenue for subscriptions, that means at $15 monthly fees there are only 5 million subscribed players in the USA paying subs for MMOs.  Doesn't that seem extremely low?

    That is why you need research because what you expect is not accurate.

    5M is extremely low? Not really. Few wants to stick to a sub. Most MMO players play F2P.

    In fact, if it is not for WOW (still 2M in the US?), the number would be MUCH lower.

     Ok smart guy.  Do you think people want to pay for cars and houses?  Most people would love a free car or a free house.  That doesn't make it the best idea.  This F2P will not serve all game companies well but will help transient gamers move from game to game without spending a penny.  The suckers who support these welware players will wake up at some point and demand more or see that they are not going to have great long term value in spend their bucks.  Then they will  move on. 

  • ShaighShaigh Posts: 546Member Uncommon

    Monthly spending for top free-to-play MMO's: World of tank players outspend League of Legends 6x

    http://www.superdataresearch.com/market-movers/

     

    Superdata has a very broad definition on MMO's, and neither of those games are MMO's. Still very interesting to see that the average world of tank player pays 7.58 dollars per month.

  • KarahandrasKarahandras Sible HedinghamPosts: 1,673Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Squeak69
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    [mod edit]

    But can you guess how much more money F2P is making compared to P2P without seeing the post?

    good question but heres a better one, if we take the percentage of F2P to P2P and then we take the percentage of F2P games on the market compared to the percentage of P2P games on the market adn tehn compare them i wonder what the number will be.

    just a rough guess would be

    3 to 1 on profits (F2P to P2P)

    and about

    close to 500 compared to less then 10 (F2P to P2P)

    now these numbers are not accurate but ill bet they are rougly close

    now im no mathy person but there dose seem to be a pattern here.

    Didn't see anywhere what they are counting as mmo's, so that ratio could be a lot higher.

  • ArakaziArakazi OxfordPosts: 889Member
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by kadepsyson

    Also, the numbers seem really far off from what I'd expect.  For example, if $86 million is the total revenue for subscriptions, that means at $15 monthly fees there are only 5 million subscribed players in the USA paying subs for MMOs.  Doesn't that seem extremely low?

    That is why you need research because what you expect is not accurate.

    5M is extremely low? Not really. Few wants to stick to a sub. Most MMO players play F2P.

    In fact, if it is not for WOW (still 2M in the US?), the number would be MUCH lower.

     Ok smart guy.  Do you think people want to pay for cars and houses?  Most people would love a free car or a free house.  That doesn't make it the best idea.  This F2P will not serve all game companies well but will help transient gamers move from game to game without spending a penny.  The suckers who support these welware players will wake up at some point and demand more or see that they are not going to have great long term value in spend their bucks.  Then they will  move on. 

    I'm not so cheap that I would spend my free time playing garbage just because its free, I value my free time too highly for that.

  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 , CAPosts: 2,439Member Uncommon

    Considering the fact that F2P's biggest funders are the whales that dump a lot more cash than time into the games, it isn't surprising.

    How much of that money is recycled into making more cash shop stuff compared to improving the rest of the game?

  • niceguy3978niceguy3978 Gainesville, FLPosts: 2,000Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    http://2p.com/5170acba61fc1cbdad62bf61_1/March-2013-US-Digital-Games-Market-Overview.htm

     

    "Speaking of the MMO, the free-to-play MMO is definitely a trendy and have a growth of 3 million players in March, which also brings a slight improvement on monetization to $195 million. To the contrary, the pay-to-play MMO segment is going down in March and loses around 289,000 subscribers. Nonetheless, the overall revenues remained relatively stable at $86 million"

     

     

    Well, that is 5.7 million people or so subbing.  That is a fairly healthy playerbase, though most of that is playing 1 game.  I'm assuming that they are separating the money generated in hybrid, "freemium," games between the revenue gernerated from the subs and the revenue generated from the f2p players.  Or are they lumping all the figures together?

  • WaldoeWaldoe allentown, PAPosts: 624Member
    Lol the obsession people have on this site with f2p is amazing.. There is a minimum of 5 threads a day about f2p and how games should all go f2p, which is especially funny because p2p is not going anywhere.
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Waldoe
    Lol the obsession people have on this site with f2p is amazing.. There is a minimum of 5 threads a day about f2p and how games should all go f2p, which is especially funny because p2p is not going anywhere.

     I see the opposite. I see more threads about how f2p is destroying everything than threads about how games should be f2p.

    Which is especially funny because f2p is not going anywhere.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • WaldoeWaldoe allentown, PAPosts: 624Member
    The article is also so misleading it is not even funny. What  big name AAA sub-based games have launched recently? None. When FF14, TESO, WildStar, and ArcheAge all launch this year and are sub-based show me that updated article.
  • ArakaziArakazi OxfordPosts: 889Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Waldoe
    Lol the obsession people have on this site with f2p is amazing.. There is a minimum of 5 threads a day about f2p and how games should all go f2p, which is especially funny because p2p is not going anywhere.

     I see the opposite. I see more threads about how f2p is destroying everything than threads about how games should be f2p.

    Which is especially funny because f2p is not going anywhere.

    I think B2P is the future anyway. GW2 model is something I prefer - I buy the game for $60 and don't have to worry about another bill from them. There is a limited cash shop ingame but nothing I need to buy unless I like fluff. I've yet to encounter a F2P game that I thought matched the quality of a AAA B2P mmo. The better f2p games on the market are the ones that used to be P2P but for one reason or other changed their business model.

  • WaldoeWaldoe allentown, PAPosts: 624Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Waldoe
    Lol the obsession people have on this site with f2p is amazing.. There is a minimum of 5 threads a day about f2p and how games should all go f2p, which is especially funny because p2p is not going anywhere.

     I see the opposite. I see more threads about how f2p is destroying everything than threads about how games should be f2p.

    Which is especially funny because f2p is not going anywhere.

    Every single day there are threads like: Poll: Should TESO be f2p?, Poll: WIll you play WildStar if it doesn't go f2p?, Rift should go f2p, etc etc,

  • CecropiaCecropia Posts: 3,472Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Waldoe
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Waldoe
    Lol the obsession people have on this site with f2p is amazing.. There is a minimum of 5 threads a day about f2p and how games should all go f2p, which is especially funny because p2p is not going anywhere.

     I see the opposite. I see more threads about how f2p is destroying everything than threads about how games should be f2p.

    Which is especially funny because f2p is not going anywhere.

    Every single day there are threads like: Poll: Should TESO be f2p?, Poll: WIll you play WildStar if it doesn't go f2p?, Rift should go f2p, etc etc,

    Some people only see what they want to; this is an example of such a case.

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • WaldoeWaldoe allentown, PAPosts: 624Member
    Originally posted by Cecropia
    Originally posted by Waldoe
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Waldoe
    Lol the obsession people have on this site with f2p is amazing.. There is a minimum of 5 threads a day about f2p and how games should all go f2p, which is especially funny because p2p is not going anywhere.

     I see the opposite. I see more threads about how f2p is destroying everything than threads about how games should be f2p.

    Which is especially funny because f2p is not going anywhere.

    Every single day there are threads like: Poll: Should TESO be f2p?, Poll: WIll you play WildStar if it doesn't go f2p?, Rift should go f2p, etc etc,

    Some people only see what they want to; this is an example of such a case.

    You want me to link all of the threads? It won't be difficult to do. There are plenty to pick from.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Waldoe
    Originally posted by Cecropia
    Originally posted by Waldoe
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Waldoe
    Lol the obsession people have on this site with f2p is amazing.. There is a minimum of 5 threads a day about f2p and how games should all go f2p, which is especially funny because p2p is not going anywhere.

     I see the opposite. I see more threads about how f2p is destroying everything than threads about how games should be f2p.

    Which is especially funny because f2p is not going anywhere.

    Every single day there are threads like: Poll: Should TESO be f2p?, Poll: WIll you play WildStar if it doesn't go f2p?, Rift should go f2p, etc etc,

    Some people only see what they want to; this is an example of such a case.

    You want me to link all of the threads? It won't be difficult to do. There are plenty to pick from.

     And every day there are threads stating f2p is evil, stop f2p, f2p is a scam.  They are all there, easy to see.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • SmikisSmikis VilniusPosts: 1,045Member

    how many p2p mmmorpgs are still there? wow, eve, rift, what else?pretty sure some niche obscure ones, darkfall?

    its practically 10p2p  vs 100+  f2p, funny how people posted other way around, as if majority of games are p2p

     

    i mean really,  at best scenario its 1 to 5 ratio, 1 to 10 is more accurate , and it produces nearly half  of what f2p makes, sounds good enough to me

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,444Member Uncommon

    I would have to say those numbers show the F2p idea is failing and badly.The simple reason is there are only a few games in total charging a sub fee,yet you have 500 maybe 1500 F2p games versus maybe 5 lol.I would say they had better be making 500x the profits.

    I think this site should search for a LEGIT and HONEST spokesman or women of course from a few industry leaders and get them to tell us the % that actually spend money in F2p games.That would give a MUCH better indication of how valuable the gamers think those games are.If they are not willing to spend any momney,that tells you think nothing of the game,if it folded up shop,they couldn't care less.

    I would go on a limb  and bet i am within 2% in saying a maximum of 5% spend anything close to a normal subscription fee.That would be saying 95% do not figure your game is worth the same quality as a sub based game.


    Samoan Diamond

  • hcoelhohcoelho Rio de JaneiroPosts: 529Member

    IMO,  MMOs compared to other games genre are sub par. Specially the mainstream market, they are made so poorly, they are so similar that the "Free is cheaper"  comes handy and totally justify the current trend.

    Why on earth would  one pay for a game monthly if  one can have almost the same experience for free on another similar enough.  Unless you are talking about games like EVE and other indies that offers different experiences.

    I dare you to name ONE company that delivers enough content monthly to justify a sub,i dare you.... People ain't stupid, they pay what they think its fair.

    No surprise F2P market is growing ever stronger. 

  • WaldoeWaldoe allentown, PAPosts: 624Member
    Originally posted by Elandir90

    IMO,  MMOs compared to other games genre are sub par. Specially the mainstream market, they are made so poorly, they are so similar that the "Free is cheaper"  comes handy and totally justify the current trend.

    Why on earth would  one pay for a game monthly if  one can have almost the same experience for free on another similar enough.  Unless you are talking about games like EVE and other indies that offers different experiences.

    I dare you to name ONE company that delivers enough content monthly to justify a sub,i dare you.... People ain't stupid, they pay what they think its fair.

    No surprise F2P market is growing ever stronger. 

    Name a game that pumps content out faster than Trion with Rift.

  • CecropiaCecropia Posts: 3,472Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Waldoe
    Originally posted by Cecropia
    Originally posted by Waldoe
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Waldoe
    Lol the obsession people have on this site with f2p is amazing.. There is a minimum of 5 threads a day about f2p and how games should all go f2p, which is especially funny because p2p is not going anywhere.

     I see the opposite. I see more threads about how f2p is destroying everything than threads about how games should be f2p.

    Which is especially funny because f2p is not going anywhere.

    Every single day there are threads like: Poll: Should TESO be f2p?, Poll: WIll you play WildStar if it doesn't go f2p?, Rift should go f2p, etc etc,

    Some people only see what they want to; this is an example of such a case.

    You want me to link all of the threads? It won't be difficult to do. There are plenty to pick from.

    Sorry, I was referring to VengeSunsoar in my comment. I should have been clearer and I completely agree with you.

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by XAPKen

    Times change, markets change, tech changes, games change, payment models adapt.

     

    I think Scarlet Blade is a great example.  Have you ever seen anyone say it should be monetized as box plus subscription?  I doubt it.  Now ask yourself why is that.

     

    Exactly. This F2P crap is actually made it so that more low quality, garbage MMOs can be released because it will be F2P and they will be able to dupe a few weak-minded people to fork out houndreds of dollars for playing a freaking video game.

    You're completely right, New F2P games are crappy quality:

    Bless

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR_iBJcZtwI

    Ein Online

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2jZbNHa3jc

    Archage

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2zm0gABZUg

    Neverwinter

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5dsZhLHPeQ

    Guild Wars 2

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgyS_-HiD54

    Defiance

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiT826PSugE

    Age of Wushu

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Coaxkb4HoPk

     

    Those titles are just so poor quality compared to these new subscription games:

    RIFT

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if30VE4ekpk

    Darkfall: Unholy Wars

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b75WH87BLSM

    Wakfu

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJC8sTHESaI

     

     (If I'm forgetting other any other subscription based games forgive me; I can't remember them all off the top of my head.)

     So tell me what's really going on? You can pick and choose which games are "good" or "bad". However, as you can see from what I've posted up above there's so many new games that are great and are free-to-play compared to how many new games that are (still) subscription based.

     

    There are very few subscription games that are successful!

    World of Wacraft

    Everquest

    UO

    DAOC

    RIFT

     

    There have been very few successful games (on the top of my mind) that have been able to pull off their ability to stay profitable with a subscription based model.

     

    You choose what games are crap:

     

    The ones released as "AAA" subscription games that fail (then in switch to F2P)?

    The ones released as free-to-play games that are successful?

     

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • moraelinmoraelin Pleasant Grove, ALPosts: 38Member Uncommon
    Easy to rip people off pieces at a time..then they don't even notice the cash shop expenditures outweigh the subsciption prices :)
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