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MMO vs TES
AlBQuirky
Member EpicPosts: 7,432
A lot of what I read about for TES:O has to do with the "MMO-ifying" of The Elder Scrolls single player games. I thought it would be interesting to take a look at some of the single player "features" (there is plenty of room to add features NOT in TES single player games) and see if they would "fit" in an MMO setting.
Character Creation
- 10 Provinces with 10 races with 10 starting cities/areas to choose from.
- Racial Abilities.
- 8 Attributes to further define a character.
- 3 Figured attributes (health, stamina, and magicka).
- 3 Skill areas (combat, magic, stealth) with maybe 7-10 skills based in each.
- Primary, Major, and minor skills for the players to chose.
- 21 Classes (7 each from combat, magic, and stealth) players can choose from as a quick base for their characters with the ability to create their own class.
- 13 Birth signs (1 for each Tamriel month) to further detail a character.
Combat
- 2 hands, 2 mouse buttons.
- Tap right mouse click, attack with right hand.
- Tap left mouse click, attack with the left hand.
- Shift+Mouse click and you block.
- Hold+Click button for power attacks.
- Click both buttons for... ? (Special ability, maybe?)
- Attacks use stamina.
- Spells use Magicka.
- Duel cast spells for greater effect.
Character Advancement
- Advance by using skills.
- When a set number of skill advancement occurs, gain 1 character level.
- At character level-up, add points to attributes, with more points available to those skills used to level up.
Crafting
- Smithing for arms and armor and jewelry.
- Alchemy for potions and drinks.
- Enchanting for magical items.
Spells
- 6 or 7 schools of magic.
- Many basic spell effects within each school.
- Create new spells with differing effects and magnitudes, limited by a player's magicka.
Factions
- 11 Imperial Guilds.
- 5 province specific guilds in each province. (5 Dunmer Houses in Morrowind, for example.)
- Vampiric Clans.
- Werewolf Clans.
- Players join guild/factions for quests/stories.
- Guilds can be opposed to other guilds. (Tribunal Temple - Imperial Cult)
Questing
- No XP. Just skill gains.
- Faction based with many regular non-faction NPCs or items, too.
- Journal entries that have details about quests.
- No quest markers?
General Gameplay
- All 10 provinces to explore.
- All 10 races to interact with.
- Quests with multiple ways to accomplish them.
- Puzzle, Mystery, Murder, Fight, Collect, Diplomacy, Acquire/Recover Item Quests.
- Dark is Dark. Make light spells and sources matter again. Let the Khajiit's Night Eye racial ability matter!
- 1st/3rd Person views.
Housing
- Have Guild rewarded housing.
- Have player built housing.
Would any of these "features" ruin an MMO?
Tweaking on the existing systems would certainly need to be done, and maybe some of the above just would not work with "massive" amounts of players in the game. Overall, though, I just don't buy that "This is an MMO!" response.
ZOS has here an IP that can break many MMO stereotypes. I see them skulking back to the "familiar and known" comfort zone, though.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Comments
Damn... wrong thread. I thought this was finally a thread where we pretended ESO is not based on anything at all and we look at it's faults and virtues purely based on the MMOie things they're doing.
MMOs with no previous IP to comply with have it so easy! We can like them or dislike them purely based on their own merits,
You think this forum might be ready for that thread yet?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
It sure is easier to see a game solely for what has when there is no "IP expectations" involved. Sequels suffer from this, too.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
While there is some logic to this, you also have to look at it this way...
The reason why they made this MMO an Elder Scrolls MMO is because they wanted to make money by attracting the interest of those who were already fans of TES games.
In other words, there are plenty of people who would not even be here if they didn't like TES games. They are here because this is a game based off the Elder Scrolls universe, and therefore it's to be expected that they will assume that this game will have something in common with at least one of the previous Elder Scrolls games.
This isn't exclusive to just MMOs. If, for example, you named a game "The Elder Scrolls: Atlantis" and then made the entire game a sing-along childrens' game based off of Disney's The Little Mermaid, people are going to say, "What the hell, this doesn't have anything in common with an Elder Scrolls game." Naturally if it's in the same game series, they will compare it with the previous games, unless said previous games are so old the crowd entering the new game in the series don't remember the old ones. One actual series that comes to mind is Fallout. I realize a lot people who played Fallout 3 have no idea what the old Fallout games are. If you just look at Fallout 3 on its own merits, it's a great game, but if you were actually a fan of the games that made the series popular, you're going to look at it and say "wtf, this is nothing like the previous Fallout games"
Ultimately, by using the name of a popular series, it's to be expected fans will want you to deliver some of the factors that made them actually like and buy into the series to make it popular enough to merit making an MMO out of, rather than just slapping its name onto an MMO.
Personally, I'm just going to wait and see what it's like, but I can understand both sides of this argument.
Played: DAoC, AC2, WoW, CoH, GW, GW2, WAR, AoC, Champions Online, Rift, Dragon Nest, Vindictus, Warframe, Neverwinter, Dungeon Fighter Online
Currently Playing: Dungeon Fighter Online Global
Waiting for: None
This is my final thought on the matter.
I kind of agree with you here, if they're going to use the Elder Scrolls name to sell the product then they are subject to previous games in the series. That's why I think they should've created a new IP and then add the tagline "From the creator's of the Elder Scrolls" ~ BOOM, no stipulations and we could be cheering Mr. Frior for trying to make a neat little 3 faction realm MMO-thingy.
But its not from the creators of Elder Scrolls its from the creators of daoc.
TES is funding it, that's good enough for me. I'm fine with Matt Firor's vision but I think it's wrong for TES.
Actually TES is not funding it. Zenimax Media is. And it's not from the creators of DAoC, it's from the company that owns the TES IP.
Zenimax Media, the parent compant of Bethesda (TES), id Software (Doom), Arkane Studios (Dishonored), and several other studios, created Zenimax Studios for the sole purpose of developing ESO...it's the one studio that shares the parent company's name...there's a clue in there somewhere.
They hired exactly who they wanted to hire--and if they hired Matt Firor for it and then, as some suppose, that Evil Matt ran off in his own direction and perverted the Betehsda franchise, Zenimax Media would have to be the most naive and downright ignorant company in existence. One that despite 6 years of paying the development bills, had no clue what Matt was doing.
Alternatively, they knew exactly what they wanted to do with a TES MMO and hired the right guy to do it for them.
The IP is not in the public domain for individual TES fans to interpret it and expand on it in one of 10,000,000 ways. The owners decided how they wanted to do it. You can like it or not...buy it or not... play it a little or play it a lot... that's the choice you, the consumer, gets to make.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Zenimax Media makes money from TES franchise = TES funded ESO impo.
...and what's all these extra words for, did you miss me or something? I thought we was beyond this fickle stuff. We have no idea what went on behind the doors at Zenimax, as far as we know Matt Firor was their 2nd or 3rd choice.
That last paragraph it sounds like you're telling me that I'm not allowed to have an opinion on ESO because I don't own the rights to the IP (am I understanding this correctly?). You should know me better than that Isy, critiquing someone's opinion is about as productive as cleaning sand off a beach.
It's cool if you, Matt Firor and everyone else at Zenimax doesn't agree with me but it's still my opinion.
You can have an opinion but it's worth about this much (picture my thumb and forefinger touching each other.)
The game is being made as it is... play it or don't: no one is forcing you to do anything.
The only thing worth discussing is how this MMO plays as an MMO. The pointless part is the "This is like TES/No it isn't" constant blather.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I can agree with the sentiments of the last statement here. It's now pointless to bicker on whether Zenimax is doing the TES series justice. What we should be doing is discussing the features that have been presented to us and attempt to find value on the game based on the merits of the game itself, and not the IP it represents.
People are always hesitant to change, and like to do things the way "they've always been done". However, if we just kept doing the same thing we always have, there would never be any changes or innovations. I am a long time fan of TES, I love each iteration of the game, and there are plenty of things I find frustrating over each iteration of the game as well. However, I am also not one to completely disregard an upcomming game because it didn't match what I felt might be a good idea for a TES mmo. I will take the information presented from ZO and see if it seems like a game I would want to play. If it is, then great, if not, oh well.
You are either going to like the game, or you won't. You may not like the direction the game is going in mmo form, and everyone has a right to their opinion. People just seem to forget what they might find "dumb" or "boring" others will find "fun" and "exciting". These bickering threads have no value other than to create harsh feelings among those within the community.
Of course it's nothing but a grain of sand, why would you think it any greater?
In a way, you're right. However, when a company dons the name of a familiar IP, they have bought into the social contract of player's expectations. You can't start something with a history of features, and then abandon it. If you can't meet those expectations, save your investors the money and don't make the game. The market is merciless (as it should be) and companies can't blindly create these games and ignore the culture of the IP.
I understand what you're saying but I see many things that they are doing that are exactly trying to make this MMO feel very close to the TES single player games. The artistic style is very similar, the open-ended character development is very TES-like. But at the same time they are using many features that are based on trying to meet MMO player's expectations of what is familiar in MMOs.
It resembles TES but it also resembles many MMOs that have nothing to do with TES. Player expectations of what a TES MMO should be like are as varied as MMO players' opinions of what MMOs should be like. Developers have to choose some features and not others and not everyone will like their choices.
Look at some of the threads here about segregating PvP and PvE vs. open world PvP everywhere. Some of the arguments there are made based on what is more TES-like. But what is really being discussed in those threads is just the same subject that gets discussed in the Pub here daily: some like open world PvP and others don't. Making an argument based on which is more TES is just a debating tactIc to try to enhance the credibility of one set of preferences over the other.
I'm just a realist. It's being done this way and I like most of what they're doing. I just wish they hurry up 'cause I can't wait to play it.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Agreed - an alternative thread such as you propose would involve a great deal of pretence.
Zenimax made a rod against which to be measured, and for their own back - by cashing in on the previous success of the IP.
Whether one is critical or complementary about this MMO, one cannot reasonably ignore the massive influence and top to bottom inclusion of the IP.
Agreed again - MMO's without IP do have it easier in development - they can take the strengths and weaknesses of the MMO genre and build a world to suit those specifically. But then of course you have to hard-sell because there is no player familiarity to do it for you. Build up a head of steam though and maybe you will succeed against the goalposts you set yourself.
Take an IP and you have to fit the MMO template over it - with the inevitable consequences of round pegs forced in square holes - and that's if you don't deliberately round of more of the pegs with less than compatible design decisions. But then of course the potential benefit comes in the 'pre-assured' playerbase. In this case - the head of steam builds up for you, but you have to be seen to succeed against a preconceived set of goalposts.
On your last point, is this forum ready for what would amount to a thread which misses a central and overiding element of what is being debated?
... the answer is self-evident I think - it happens on here all the time...
It was an opinion which gave people in certain countries the right to have an opinion in the first place.
Was this idea also worth so little?
As the only construct in the universe (as yet encountered) so complex it can make active decisions, one should never consider a brain, or what it produces as always insignificant.
You are of course free to consider your own opinions as that small, but projecting that onto all others is bound, eventually, to be wrong.
Then it shouldn't even have TES on the box.