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Well can't say we didn't see this one coming...

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  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,900Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Instigator-Jones
    I'm more interested in what this says about the current CU community. I'm not sure I want to spend time in a PVP RVR game with a group of nitwits that can't even organize a unique and personal plea to a news outlet for coverage of their holy grail game. Seriously, using form letters or copy/paste email chains is base level stuff. You can only imagine all the crap that would likely go on IN the game. I was moderately excited about CU, now I'm leaning towards the 'pass crowd'.

    These are the backers (actually a subset of those who backed the project) we're talking about here, which is not representive of what the community of a game will be years from now (if it funds); at least no more than the typical venomous fans that exist for every title years before they see completion.

    If this sort of "fan" bugs you enough to skip a prospective title, how could you ever play anything?

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • dantheman13dantheman13 las vegas, NVPosts: 55Member
    Originally posted by chaintm
    Originally posted by dantheman13

    Well said.  PA's reaction to the "spamming" is childish at best.  Politicians around the world often get email bombed by pre-written email messages by grassroots organizations.  Such emails have curbed evil things like SOPA and other nasty laws and government policies.  As long as these emails were not automatically generated, which by the sounds of the article there is no proof that they were, PA should have done the responsible thing and taken the emails as a sign of a passionate community that should not be ignored.  Their refusal to cover the game only makes them a questionable and lazy gaming news outlet for me.   

    Me spamming an media outlet with say 10 or 100 emails on the same topic with the same content is spam not passion.

     

    The article never mentioned that the same person sent multiple emails to the same news outlet.

  • tleartlear Toronto, ONPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by chaintm
    Originally posted by tlear
    Game press? lol they are whining they did not get payed/bribed thats all. If they were not whores they would cover the game already, since they are.. well they want kickback from developer to give them coverage. This si now SOP with all tech press pretty much. As long as CU name gets mentioned.. mission accomplished. In fact negativity produces better clickthrough, like MUCH better in fact

    This is actually your opinion on it, no doubt there are coverages that do this, but it's your choice to read it or not, just like this thread or just like joining a kickstarter or playing a particular title. You take the article as that is the interpitation for all business are evil and out to get your money. Meh become a hermit then, as the world revolves around trading of good for funds. You can say this about ANYTHING. So point moot I think.

    I do not think it is evil, thats just their busines model. But them whining about getting spammed is hilarious

  • blastermasterblastermaster Cap-aux-Meules, QCPosts: 149Member Uncommon

    Aside from the title that is a bit on the dramatic side (has to, if you want to get hits I guess), I don't see what all the fuss is about. 

    The article in itself is'nt really negative nor bad for CU in general.. It just states that a couple "fans" did go a bit over the top, because of the passion/excitement the prospect of such a game has brought them.. (just shows how desperate people are to get an mmo that actually tries to deviate from the rest..) 

    The rest is kind of good for the game in general I would say, (gives exposure, links the KS introduction video, good on Mark Jacobs, etc.).

     

     

  • KoroshiyaKoroshiya Pacific, WAPosts: 250Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Koroshiya
    to be fair he never said they released at the same time, he put them together because both instances saw a huge player drop in daoc.  First with the release of ToA then with the release of WoW....

    To be fair, DAoC was growing in population for over 3 years before any "exodus". Which is more than... literally every AAA MMORPG in the last 7 years can say.

    And biggest exodus?? Vanguard, AoC, SWG after NGE, Tabula Rasa, freaking SWTOR, all much bigger.

    What does that have to do with my post?  Thanks though I guess for the random tidbit of knowledge that had nothing to do with the quote you are quoting! =)  I was correcting Mr. Saxon, for trying to correct someone who didn't need correcting in the first place.  I think you might have meant to quote the post that Saxon made in which he tries to say MJ never produced a popular game maybe?

    “The people that are trying to make the world worse never take a day off , why should I. Light up the darkness” – Bob Marley

  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,117Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Koroshiya
    Originally posted by Saxonblade
    Originally posted by belatucadros
    Originally posted by Saxonblade
    Originally posted by Dahkoht
    Originally posted by Sebali
    Originally posted by GwapoJosh
    That's exactly why I didn't back this game.. The CU fanboys started annoying the fuck out of me with their constant spamming of pointless threads and the constant begging.  I'll still play the game when it launches though..

    i have a horrible feeling this is going to make the GW2 fanboy spamming look like lil school girls antics. we're gonna have years of this CU crap to deal with.

    and i have a feeling the game will be just as much of a letdown as GW2 was

    I've said in other threads this is the first group I've seen to surpass the early beta Vanguard fanatics and McQuaid worshippers.

    I thought I'd never see that surpassed.

    I know right, and the funny thing is this guy has never made an MMO that had positive growth after six months, in fact had the largest mass exodus in MMO history.

    DAOC's numbers didn't really drop until WOW/TOA, to be fair.

    TOA came out way before WoW, to be fair  October 28, 2003, so that is totaly irreleveant, WoW was released over a year later. Why do so many uninformed fans say ToA was in reponse to WoW.

    to be fair he never said they released at the same time, he put them together because both instances saw a huge player drop in daoc.  First with the release of ToA then with the release of WoW....

    To be fair, DAoC was growing in population for over 3 years before any "exodus". Which is more than... literally every AAA MMORPG in the last 7 years can say.

    And biggest exodus?? Vanguard, AoC, SWG after NGE, Tabula Rasa, freaking SWTOR, all much bigger.

    Actually, for that time period, the greatest secret exodus was EverQuest.  It wasn't till they started developing EQ2 that Smedley admitted to the over 2 million people that had tried the game over the years and left, long before WoW came out.  EQ 2 was being made to capture that audience, a decidedly more casual audience.

    image
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Davis
    Don't forget the exodus of pveers from EQ to daoc, when EQ started going down the grind instances for never ending gear with each expansion route, as the primary playstyle that wow eventually cursed us with for 9 bloody years.
  • Shadowguy64Shadowguy64 Rohnert Park, CAPosts: 848Member

    We should feel blessed that Phase 1 of the diobolical plan was: MMORPG.com!!

     

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained/comments?cursor=2950555#comment-2950555

  • dantheman13dantheman13 las vegas, NVPosts: 55Member
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by dantheman13
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    Counterpoint:

    It is up to Penny Arcade to put in place a system capable of dealing with such consumer action. That way, fans can be as passionate and organised as they want and PA and co don't have to deal with the negative consequences of such action.

    I can see what Ben is saying; it is unpleasant to have to deal with hundreds and hundreds of emails that say the same thing. The problem is that Penny Arcade and other outlets open themselves up to such action by soliciting suggestions, and by broadcasting their contact information for people to use.

    The solution isn't to say "the fans of a game have sent us passionate emails that are causing us some issues, so in response to that we're not going to cover that game (and thus punish the business involved)". The business - City State Entertainment - did nothing to PA. PA are in effect boycotting one group of people for the actions of a totally different group of people, even though the group they're boycotting have limited influence over the other group (and did attempt on several occasions to stop the behaviour). That displays a distinct lack of professional courtesy and integrity.

    The solution is to say "right, so... we've had this problem before (ed: as the article suggested they have had this problem before), and now we have this problem again. HOW do >WE< deal with this, so that fans can continue to express themselves and we don't have to suffer the negative consequences involved (but can still glean the information we need to provide our readers with the media they want)." That's the right solution, the professional solution, and the solution I'd expect a company worth millions of dollars that has a great deal of experience in dealing with such massive groups of consumers (they organise conventions ffs) to pursue.

    Movie studios and various other organisations have come up with a myriad of ways to deal with such consumer action. It's a well documented phenomenon, and several workable (and cost effective) systems have been developed to deal with it. PA and others may not like it, but it comes with the territory (and... again... the article suggests they already knew this).

    P.S. I don't care about CU.

    Well said.  PA's reaction to the "spamming" is childish at best.  Politicians around the world often get email bombed by pre-written email messages by grassroots organizations.  Such emails have curbed evil things like SOPA and other nasty laws and government policies.  As long as these emails were not automatically generated, which by the sounds of the article there is no proof that they were, PA should have done the responsible thing and taken the emails as a sign of a passionate community that should not be ignored.  Their refusal to cover the game only makes them a questionable and lazy gaming news outlet for me.   

    What an illogical and nonsensical comparison.  Obviously from your argument, anyone who disagrees with what you believe is childish.

    How exactly is it nonsensical to you? I would be happy to explain it to you.

  • DeviDemonDeviDemon Vilas, NCPosts: 27Member Uncommon

    When they say spam? Do they mean a few people spamming them the same email over and over? if so why couldn't they block them? If different people then how could they expect everyone to know that tons of others were sending emails as well? And it would seem anyone with common sense would realize that spamming an email would have adverse consequences. Who are these other editors he spoke with?

     It just seems to me that Penny Arcade decided at the last minute to do an article slamming CU and it's fans right at the end of Kickstarter.

    All games have rabid fans and I'm sure CU isn't the only game they have received emails for yet it's the one they decided to write an article about?

     

    And here on the forums I feel like there is a lot of unjustified hate and calling CU out for spamming. Maybe it was bad before I started coming here but as far as I can see it's not that bad and the whining about it is pretty much uncalled for.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Another thing with TOA

    two great pvp alternatives launched around the same time - eve and planetside.
  • UOloverUOlover Mullica Hill, NJPosts: 327Member Common

    I am sure if there was a WoW2 kickstarter from blizzard tomorrow and people spammed penny arcade with emails about it, they would have made the same post......that's believable.

    *note the sarcasm*

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by Shadowguy64

    We should feel blessed that Phase 1 of the diobolical plan was: MMORPG.com!!

     

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained/comments?cursor=2950555#comment-2950555

    Yup, the idiot posted it here on MMORPG.com too

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by UOlover
    I am sure if there was a WoW2 kickstarter from blizzard tomorrow and people spammed penny arcade with emails about it, they would have made the same post......that's believable.

    It's doubtful, their servers would have been down if it was WoW, they are just lucky it was such a niche game

  • david06david06 Chantilly, VAPosts: 183Member


    Originally posted by Squeak69
    its nice to see the CU fanatics are comeing out in droves to try and denounce a article that dousnt agree ith them, with thier usual venom.kinda prove the point.
    Ben Kuchera started a bunch of drama and tried to get a writer for Forbes magazine fired because he posted a link to an emulator. Kuchera did this even though he had done something similar in the past. Kuchera looked like a fool, and eventually he just started ignoring people when he could no longer defend his conduct.

    That's why I don't think that the author is credible, it has nothing to do with his criticism of the CU fanbase.


    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    But the press HAS been covering this game. Most of it anyway. Almost all MMO sites have, and several PC gaming sites.And, even PA report is technically covering it. Though it seems petty to say "we're not covering this game because some fans are annoyingly ethusiastic about it." Isn't it their job to report on news?
    You're right, the Penny Arcade site hasn't really covered it(when many other sites have) and he's now offering this up as an excuse.


    So it's either a poor reason, as many other journalists and sites have managed to wade through this apparent deluge of spam and cover the project, or it's not the real reason.

  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,117Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dantheman13
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by dantheman13
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    Counterpoint:

    It is up to Penny Arcade to put in place a system capable of dealing with such consumer action. That way, fans can be as passionate and organised as they want and PA and co don't have to deal with the negative consequences of such action.

    I can see what Ben is saying; it is unpleasant to have to deal with hundreds and hundreds of emails that say the same thing. The problem is that Penny Arcade and other outlets open themselves up to such action by soliciting suggestions, and by broadcasting their contact information for people to use.

    The solution isn't to say "the fans of a game have sent us passionate emails that are causing us some issues, so in response to that we're not going to cover that game (and thus punish the business involved)". The business - City State Entertainment - did nothing to PA. PA are in effect boycotting one group of people for the actions of a totally different group of people, even though the group they're boycotting have limited influence over the other group (and did attempt on several occasions to stop the behaviour). That displays a distinct lack of professional courtesy and integrity.

    The solution is to say "right, so... we've had this problem before (ed: as the article suggested they have had this problem before), and now we have this problem again. HOW do >WE< deal with this, so that fans can continue to express themselves and we don't have to suffer the negative consequences involved (but can still glean the information we need to provide our readers with the media they want)." That's the right solution, the professional solution, and the solution I'd expect a company worth millions of dollars that has a great deal of experience in dealing with such massive groups of consumers (they organise conventions ffs) to pursue.

    Movie studios and various other organisations have come up with a myriad of ways to deal with such consumer action. It's a well documented phenomenon, and several workable (and cost effective) systems have been developed to deal with it. PA and others may not like it, but it comes with the territory (and... again... the article suggests they already knew this).

    P.S. I don't care about CU.

    Well said.  PA's reaction to the "spamming" is childish at best.  Politicians around the world often get email bombed by pre-written email messages by grassroots organizations.  Such emails have curbed evil things like SOPA and other nasty laws and government policies.  As long as these emails were not automatically generated, which by the sounds of the article there is no proof that they were, PA should have done the responsible thing and taken the emails as a sign of a passionate community that should not be ignored.  Their refusal to cover the game only makes them a questionable and lazy gaming news outlet for me.   

    What an illogical and nonsensical comparison.  Obviously from your argument, anyone who disagrees with what you believe is childish.

    How exactly is it nonsensical to you?  Maybe you don't know what the responsibilities are of a reliable news source towards their audience?

    To compare political mailings to game sponsorship mailings is ludicrous, through and through.  Who are you to judge them childish for not wanting to tolerate such behavior?  I can assure you most people would not tolerate it one bit, would that mean most of us are childish or is it more likely that we are protecting ourselves from having our precious time wasted.

    image
  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member
    Originally posted by DeviDemon

    When they say spam? Do they mean a few people spamming them the same email over and over? if so why couldn't they block them? If different people then how could they expect everyone to know that tons of others were sending emails as well? And it would seem anyone with common sense would realize that spamming an email would have adverse consequences. Who are these other editors he spoke with?

     

    It was mentioned in the article that it was an organized attempt to get as many people as possible to send out the same copy pasta message.

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • chaintmchaintm Chicago, ILPosts: 972Member
    Originally posted by Shadowguy64

    We should feel blessed that Phase 1 of the diobolical plan was: MMORPG.com!!

     

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained/comments?cursor=2950555#comment-2950555

    Indeed, I have to giggle to a point thou ( it did make me laugh) that the same community bashing the article now are praising and asking for the person under the persona of "Time" who started this to get a unique title in game. That to me is just another endorsment to the community. I loved the old daoc community and some where pretty nutty, but the majority where pretty down to earth I beleive, it all depends on the way you see it thou. I remember going to original daoc forums that wasn't even part of the daoc site that was the almost "other" part of the community many didn't know about. That got extreme many times depending on what server you where on like most MMO's. I see some of that here, but not at the craze point I see it atm.

    That's my opinion thou, I get it they are passionate about getting this title made, just seems a bit extreeme to me. It reminds me of the arguments that broke out about darkfall before darkfall actually was released. Yeah , I was part of those :P not proud of that fact, but grown sense that time. I remember that passion so I get the craze point I see here, I don't know but to me it's even past that point.

    "The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"

  • KenichiKenichi Portland, ORPosts: 109Member
    Originally posted by Instigator-Jones
    "lol. There's single player games for you then I guess. If you play online, you play with those same nitwits. Nothing unique to CU. You'll see the same attitude of any group of people that care about something and need to convince others to share their view."

    You miss the point entirely; I thought CU was supposed to be this 'special' game with this 'amazing' community. If, however, it IS TYPICAL as you say... Well, then all the better to 'just pass'.

    No internet community will ever be amazing, except for the small selective groups out there.

    With that being said, I was hoping that with less backers there would be less of this attitude floating around. 

  • TaldierTaldier Camp Hill, PAPosts: 235Member

    I honestly didnt see anything negative in the article.  There was that other gaming site that overreacted, but this actually seems like pretty good press.  He affirmed that CSE wasnt the cause and that MJ has tried to do what he can to reign fans in.  He didnt try to discourage anyone from pledging towards the project.  He even posted the new front page video from the kickstarter.

     

    It basically sounded like a backhanded way to help advertise the game while still chastising the folks who have been screaming and running around like chickens with their heads cut off.

  • DeviDemonDeviDemon Vilas, NCPosts: 27Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by WhiteLantern
    Originally posted by DeviDemon

    When they say spam? Do they mean a few people spamming them the same email over and over? if so why couldn't they block them? If different people then how could they expect everyone to know that tons of others were sending emails as well? And it would seem anyone with common sense would realize that spamming an email would have adverse consequences. Who are these other editors he spoke with?

     

    It was mentioned in the article that it was an organized attempt to get as many people as possible to send out the same copy pasta message.

    Doh. I missed that. Yeah, that was not a good idea. Oh, well.

    image

  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,117Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Eraserhead

     


    I’ve spoken to multiple editors about this issue, and they all expressed annoyance at the Camelot Unchained spam, and this has led most of us to not cover the game
    What drivel. Any decent "editor" of a decent website will not refuse to cover a game out of spite. Editors write about what's relevant and what they think readers want. If they don't cover something that they would have previously then the website probably isn't worth reading.

     

    Having said that, mailbombing isn't the best idea in the world.

    Didn't MMORPG.com just recently ban a game from this very website, because the game owner was demanding that moderators remove negative comments about said game?  Companies have morals and ethics because they are run by people.  Sometimes it seems like the instant corporation is mentioned, everyone pictures a robot running the show.

    image
  • SorninSornin Richmond, BCPosts: 1,133Member

    I look at this two ways:

    1. It is disappointing that fanatic fans are going a bit too far and making MJ, CSE, and Camelot Unchained look bad

    2. It is disappointing that sites are purposefully trying to harm MJ, CSE, and Camelot Unchained because of it

    Look, I get that it is annoying to receive a flood of emails from fans requesting coverage. However, part of your job as a journalist is to receive such emails, and it is quite easy to create rules to ignore them if it gets bad. I am not excusing the fans, but part of the responsibility falls to the journalist, too.

    I am confused as to why the next step is to "punish" the company and game for the transgressions of fans. This makes the website and the journalist look petty and without any shred of integrity. I can honestly say Penny Arcade has really disappointed me and I will not be providing it with further ad revenue.

    You see, they made a choice to not support Camelot Unchained. That is fine - had they stopped at just that, I would have not said a word or thought anything less of them. It is their choice., But to go out and write a fairly vindictive piece complaining about how they had to deal with some emails really makes me never want to visit their site again.

    Anyway, I hope fans let MJ and CSE handle the PR, as it works better that way. Spread awareness via friends and guilds and such, not by spamming forums or websites. I also hope media outlets do their jobs and do not let their opinion of fans change their opinion of the game.

    image

  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Edmonton, ABPosts: 793Member
    News sites complaining about spam? Kinda like all the ads thrown in my face whenever I load any page on their websites. Welcome to irony.

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  • dantheman13dantheman13 las vegas, NVPosts: 55Member
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by dantheman13
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by dantheman13
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    Counterpoint:

    It is up to Penny Arcade to put in place a system capable of dealing with such consumer action. That way, fans can be as passionate and organised as they want and PA and co don't have to deal with the negative consequences of such action.

    I can see what Ben is saying; it is unpleasant to have to deal with hundreds and hundreds of emails that say the same thing. The problem is that Penny Arcade and other outlets open themselves up to such action by soliciting suggestions, and by broadcasting their contact information for people to use.

    The solution isn't to say "the fans of a game have sent us passionate emails that are causing us some issues, so in response to that we're not going to cover that game (and thus punish the business involved)". The business - City State Entertainment - did nothing to PA. PA are in effect boycotting one group of people for the actions of a totally different group of people, even though the group they're boycotting have limited influence over the other group (and did attempt on several occasions to stop the behaviour). That displays a distinct lack of professional courtesy and integrity.

    The solution is to say "right, so... we've had this problem before (ed: as the article suggested they have had this problem before), and now we have this problem again. HOW do >WE< deal with this, so that fans can continue to express themselves and we don't have to suffer the negative consequences involved (but can still glean the information we need to provide our readers with the media they want)." That's the right solution, the professional solution, and the solution I'd expect a company worth millions of dollars that has a great deal of experience in dealing with such massive groups of consumers (they organise conventions ffs) to pursue.

    Movie studios and various other organisations have come up with a myriad of ways to deal with such consumer action. It's a well documented phenomenon, and several workable (and cost effective) systems have been developed to deal with it. PA and others may not like it, but it comes with the territory (and... again... the article suggests they already knew this).

    P.S. I don't care about CU.

    Well said.  PA's reaction to the "spamming" is childish at best.  Politicians around the world often get email bombed by pre-written email messages by grassroots organizations.  Such emails have curbed evil things like SOPA and other nasty laws and government policies.  As long as these emails were not automatically generated, which by the sounds of the article there is no proof that they were, PA should have done the responsible thing and taken the emails as a sign of a passionate community that should not be ignored.  Their refusal to cover the game only makes them a questionable and lazy gaming news outlet for me.   

    What an illogical and nonsensical comparison.  Obviously from your argument, anyone who disagrees with what you believe is childish.

    How exactly is it nonsensical to you?  Maybe you don't know what the responsibilities are of a reliable news source towards their audience?

    To compare political mailings to game sponsorship mailings is ludicrous, through and through.  Who are you to judge them childish for not wanting to tolerate such behavior?  I can assure you most people would not tolerate it one bit, would that mean most of us are childish or is it more likely that we are protecting ourselves from having our precious time wasted.

    You seem to be missing the point.  Governments have a responsibility to respond to their constituents regardless of how annoying they are, and reliable news sources have a similar responsibility to respond to their readers regardless of how annoying they are.  Refusing to cover CU for any reason is simply irresponsible for a "reliable" gaming news outlet, and a disservice towards their readers.  

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