Nan Don't get me wrong. Gw2 is to daoc as wow is to EQ.
E.g. a kiddie friendly, super casual, simplified and easier version..
Not just WvW compared to frontiers. Daoc has a shallow gear curve compared to say EQ and wow, gw2 gets rid of it alltogether. But endgame pve, the difference in the two games "dragon raids" is laughable.
Originally posted by ReeseFlamelocksIt does kind of make sense that the two groups would not see each other. If it's a PvE area and you are not allowed to PvP, then the two groups would just stare at each other and wonder stupidly why they aren't allowed to attack each other. They would need to justify the peace somehow using divine intervention or via a treaty arrangement in the context of the situation. That would probably be too much of a headache.
They already have that in place within the lore.The reason PvP doesn't takes place outside Cyrodil is because, by a sort of gentlemans agreement that is the only place the fighting can take place. If you wre able to image their design as a living breathing world without artificial 'you cannot go here' faction borders then you would have enemy factions walking past each other on the streets, hurling abuse at each other and doing their best not to break the agreement but doing all thy could to get the other side to do so. So this is another 'fudge' because they are constantly digging the whole they are in deeper because their original design was really too restrictive and unable to be opened up easily. They started with a very restrictive, tight design concept and are finding that it needs to be more open but are struggling to do so with any cohesive design. they should have started off with a loose design and tightened it up the closer they can to finalising the actual gameplay and feel they and their customer base wanted.
Dont act like you speak for the customer base. You speak for one group of players not the whole of TES fans. As for not fighting in the 3 faction locked areas. This fits real life in every way and real art should reflect real life where possible. Was not till the modern age did we bring war to the other sides home land unless that was the land we were fighting over. This was how wars were fought till we had planes and ships. Where this game is set it fits very well. Also as it stands its the only option for PvP that gives PURE PvEers their space to play and still gives a deep meaningful PvP game space for PvPers. PvP servers and PvE servers with flag system is a old over used model thats broken at its core.
Why would you get to speak for the customer base when Maelwydd doesn't get to speak for the customer base? Seems a little unfair.
Never once did I say, TES customers want x,y,z.. Would you like to show me where I did?
Problem here is, they decided to build the house out of paper. Doesn't matter how many rooms you add, how many floors, how many bathrooms...when the wind starts blowing and the rain starts falling the house becomes a soggy mess.
They decided the 3 fatcion DAOC model was the best way to design the game and everything else is based on it and that is why no matter what they do people do not like it. Now DAOC might be a good design but for a TES MMO? IMO no, it is the wrong design.
But they have chosen their path and they ultimately will have to live with the results, good or bad. I hope for their sake it isn't as bad as I suspect it might be.
There is no right or wrong decision in what a TES mmo should be be.
IMO a TES MMO should be more PvP based than PvE based.
I think arguably that there is right and wrong in designing something with an IP which has already, demonstrably and very successfully got so much right itself already.
Anyone with common sense would, in deciding to use an IP - look to maximise the benefit the IP brings to the table. 7 million players for Skyrim? Numbers like that should make any MMO designer salivate with anticipation!
So check out what made 7 million players play it, put the core elements of that into your MMO - only compromising where you absolutely have to because of the inherent differences between MMO and single player design limitations... and then add extras in a complementary way.
On the way - keep your potential playerbase updated on your major design decisions - explaining why the MMO genre HAS to have certain things which TES doesn't -and how you have done your best to incorporate those things with as much TES goodness as can be fit in the same game.
Do not make design choices which preclude successful elements of your IP.
THAT was a wrong decision...
I disagree.
Take those 7 million TES players, 80% of those players are console players. So right of the bat they are choosing not to please the core of the fanbase.
There are a lot more MMO players than TES PC players. So when deciding to enter the MMO world do you decide to please a small miniority of the TES fans interested in playing an MMO or do you try pleasing the much larger MMO audience.
I understand that TES did get popular for it's exploration. However it's PvE is below average. Seeing as most MMO PvE is even worse I do not have high hopes for TES if they decide to make the game PvE-centric.
I have the single player games for my PvE.
The most sensible thing for Bethesda to do with the SP franchise is add co-op to it's next release. Seeing as it's a console franchise now it will sell like hot cakes and please the core TES fans more than ANY MMO version of TES will.
I agree. I get tired of the empty invocation of the silent majority of TES fans to support critical opinions.
This is an MMO and if it's going to be compared to anything for the purpose of predicting how it will play, it needs to be compared to past MMOs and how similar features worked or didn't work there.
Personally I've disliked this "compromise" to visit the other alliance areas in an empty phase. Although they have said that they are developing new story hooks and arcs to make this coherent, I can't imagine how they will explain the sudden dissapearance of the native player population. Unless it's the usual shark-jumping plot device, time travel...2nd only in popularity among hacks to amnesia. I would still rather visit those areas properly with alts and some other level-50 specific areas.
To me this just seems like a very low-effort way to add many hours of PvE level 50 content. They are working on "real" level 50 content with the separate "adventure zones" but those won't be ready at launch...or so they've said. The fact that they are spinning this phased other alliance PvE content as something to please the masses (?) who want to explore it all with a single character is just marketting double-speak for "hey guys! I just thought of a way to give everyone 200 hours of level 50 content without needing to program anything new...just tweak mobs and loots and presto! instant content."
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by Maelwydd Dont act like you speak for the customer base. You speak for one group of players not the whole of TES fans. As for not fighting in the 3 faction locked areas. This fits real life in every way and real art should reflect real life where possible. Was not till the modern age did we bring war to the other sides home land unless that was the land we were fighting over. This was how wars were fought till we had planes and ships. Where this game is set it fits very well. Also as it stands its the only option for PvP that gives PURE PvEers their space to play and still gives a deep meaningful PvP game space for PvPers. PvP servers and PvE servers with flag system is a old over used model thats broken at its core.
I am not speaking for anyone but myself. But if you do not think that these changes are made because enough people, in Zenimax's eyes, are pointing out what they think needs changing (and changes are being made to relect the 'TES fans' desire) then i think you need to ask why.
You can be angry with me all you want, constantly call anyone you disagree with a hater and deny the changes Zenimax themselves are making, but these changes ARE being made because the Beta tests' and perhaps the 'TES fans' (who may or may not be a large subset) are stating their opinions and Zenimax are listenning.
As for your whole "this is how war was fought" statement, the reality is more that war consisted of 1 side attacking the very home of an enemy then retreating with their goods so fighting over some desireous middle ground is inacurate.
I can think of many conflicts that took place in one or other of the combatants homes lands but very few were they fought over land that neither of them possessed. In fact the only conflict I can think of at the moment would be the fight over Jerusalem.
Problem here is, they decided to build the house out of paper. Doesn't matter how many rooms you add, how many floors, how many bathrooms...when the wind starts blowing and the rain starts falling the house becomes a soggy mess.
They decided the 3 fatcion DAOC model was the best way to design the game and everything else is based on it and that is why no matter what they do people do not like it. Now DAOC might be a good design but for a TES MMO? IMO no, it is the wrong design.
But they have chosen their path and they ultimately will have to live with the results, good or bad. I hope for their sake it isn't as bad as I suspect it might be.
There is no right or wrong decision in what a TES mmo should be be.
IMO a TES MMO should be more PvP based than PvE based.
I think arguably that there is right and wrong in designing something with an IP which has already, demonstrably and very successfully got so much right itself already.
Anyone with common sense would, in deciding to use an IP - look to maximise the benefit the IP brings to the table. 7 million players for Skyrim? Numbers like that should make any MMO designer salivate with anticipation!
So check out what made 7 million players play it, put the core elements of that into your MMO - only compromising where you absolutely have to because of the inherent differences between MMO and single player design limitations... and then add extras in a complementary way.
On the way - keep your potential playerbase updated on your major design decisions - explaining why the MMO genre HAS to have certain things which TES doesn't -and how you have done your best to incorporate those things with as much TES goodness as can be fit in the same game.
Do not make design choices which preclude successful elements of your IP.
THAT was a wrong decision...
I disagree.
Take those 7 million TES players, 80% of those players are console players. So right of the bat they are choosing not to please the core of the fanbase.
There are a lot more MMO players than TES PC players. So when deciding to enter the MMO world do you decide to please a small miniority of the TES fans interested in playing an MMO or do you try pleasing the much larger MMO audience.
I understand that TES did get popular for it's exploration. However it's PvE is below average. Seeing as most MMO PvE is even worse I do not have high hopes for TES if they decide to make the game PvE-centric.
I have the single player games for my PvE.
The most sensible thing for Bethesda to do with the SP franchise is add co-op to it's next release. Seeing as it's a console franchise now it will sell like hot cakes and please the core TES fans more than ANY MMO version of TES will.
I agree. I get tired of the empty invocation of the silent majority of TES fans to support critical opinions.
This is an MMO and if it's going to be compared to anything for the purpose of predicting how it will play, it needs to be compared to past MMOs and how similar features worked or didn't work there.
Personally I've disliked this "compromise" to visit the other alliance areas in an empty phase. Although they have said that they are developing new story hooks and arcs to make this coherent, I can't imagine how they will explain the sudden dissapearance of the native player population. Unless it's the usual shark-jumping plot device, time travel...2nd only in popularity among hacks to amnesia. I would still rather visit those areas properly with alts and some other level-50 specific areas.
To me this just seems like a very low-effort way to add many hours of PvE level 50 content. They are working on "real" level 50 content with the separate "adventure zones" but those won't be ready at launch...or so they've said. The fact that they are spinning this phased other alliance PvE content as something to please the masses (?) who want to explore it all with a single character is just marketting double-speak for "hey guys! I just thought of a way to give everyone 200 hours of level 50 content without needing to program anything new...just tweak mobs and loots and presto! instant content."
But thats always what happens when you dumb down game design to please the masses. You remove replay value and make current content not as rich. Its a common theme with video games.
I agree in part, they seem to advertise the PVP area too much of a Dark Age of Camelot design, but i think it won't even come close to that. We 'll see.
It's apparent how they twisted some of the lore just to form Alliances of 3 factions. Their intention is to attract both the Pve'ers and the PVP'ers. Hm... sounds familiar doesn't it?
Actually the twisting wasnt to create three factions (easily done by making the 4th not playable), it was the twisting to make it so the three factions were an actual threat and then twist it so those three only attack the 4th when in fact, they fought each other even more than fighting the 4th.
Never would have needed to do that if they werent basing the game on DaoCs limited and binding model.
So you would suggest 4 factions? Lol, that's more flawed than what you see as limited daoc model. Daoc model did work very well fyi, dunno why you refer to that as a failure. Many games took quite a few elements from it without implementing then in a 100% successful way though. Teso might be one of them.
4 factions especially the last one controlled by NPCS haha. Obviously you're just looking forward to a new TES with online options. This isn't the one is it?
Originally posted by Maelwydd Dont act like you speak for the customer base. You speak for one group of players not the whole of TES fans. As for not fighting in the 3 faction locked areas. This fits real life in every way and real art should reflect real life where possible. Was not till the modern age did we bring war to the other sides home land unless that was the land we were fighting over. This was how wars were fought till we had planes and ships. Where this game is set it fits very well. Also as it stands its the only option for PvP that gives PURE PvEers their space to play and still gives a deep meaningful PvP game space for PvPers. PvP servers and PvE servers with flag system is a old over used model thats broken at its core.
I am not speaking for anyone but myself. But if you do not think that these changes are made because enough people, in Zenimax's eyes, are pointing out what they think needs changing (and changes are being made to relect the 'TES fans' desire) then i think you need to ask why.
You can be angry with me all you want, constantly call anyone you disagree with a hater and deny the changes Zenimax themselves are making, but these changes ARE being made because the Beta tests' and perhaps the 'TES fans' (who may or may not be a large subset) are stating their opinions and Zenimax are listenning.
As for your whole "this is how war was fought" statement, the reality is more that war consisted of 1 side attacking the very home of an enemy then retreating with their goods so fighting over some desireous middle ground is inacurate.
I can think of many conflicts that took place in one or other of the combatants homes lands but very few were they fought over land that neither of them possessed. In fact the only conflict I can think of at the moment would be the fight over Jerusalem.
Then I would stop using terms like "The real TES fans want" or "This is what the customers want" As for the changes to the game, they kept the core design intact. So Im 100% fine with the changes.
This is a really stupid design decision by the devs. Old information indeed? I just found out about it now, this furthers my worry that this game is going to be made with money and not gamers in mind.
Originally posted by Wakygreek This is a really stupid design decision by the devs. Old information indeed? I just found out about it now, this furthers my worry that this game is going to be made with money and not gamers in mind.
How is giving PvPers a play space that focuses all PvP on one map to give PvPers larger scale battles and leaves a space for PvEers to play without being ganked not with gamers in mind?
well, TESO is slowly becoming lame as fuck....phased areas, I mean that's the crappiest thing ever invented and it was introduced in MMOs due to technical restrictions, not out of design choice (well, except for WoW quest-related phasing).
Originally posted by Wakygreek This is a really stupid design decision by the devs. Old information indeed? I just found out about it now, this furthers my worry that this game is going to be made with money and not gamers in mind.
How is giving PvPers a play space that focuses all PvP on one map to give PvPers larger scale battles and leaves a space for PvEers to play without being ganked not with gamers in mind?
They are taking away a part of the world by making players invisible to eachother. While I don't like playing WOW and getting ganked by a higher level player I do appreciate the reality of how the world works. There is no consequence in this world by enemy players even though your in their territory ... that just doesn't make sense. There are better ways to split up the population that has worked in the past and keeps the immersion. You could make everything a safe zone and require /flag pvp, or create contested zones where you are flagged automatically. You can even do an instance system where you go to a battleground. Those work for the most part and is largely accepted by the majority, this system is the wrong approach and will alienate players that would like to be fully immersed and could cause other issues.
Originally posted by Wakygreek This is a really stupid design decision by the devs. Old information indeed? I just found out about it now, this furthers my worry that this game is going to be made with money and not gamers in mind.
How is giving PvPers a play space that focuses all PvP on one map to give PvPers larger scale battles and leaves a space for PvEers to play without being ganked not with gamers in mind?
They are taking away a part of the world by making players invisible to eachother. While I don't like playing WOW and getting ganked by a higher level player I do appreciate the reality of how the world works. There is no consequence in this world by enemy players even though your in their territory ... that just doesn't make sense. There are better ways to split up the population that has worked in the past and keeps the immersion. You could make everything a safe zone and require /flag pvp, or create contested zones where you are flagged automatically. You can even do an instance system where you go to a battleground. Those work for the most part and is largely accepted by the majority, this system is the wrong approach and will alienate players that would like to be fully immersed and could cause other issues.
Most PURE PvEers dont like the flag system. Its a old broken system that is to easy to mess with and force people to PvP when they dont want to. Thats why players like that often pick a MMO that is 100% pure PvE because the flag system never really works. The model ESO is using lets PvE players and PvP player live in the same game and never step on anyone toes. As a PvEer that brings in players that would not play in a MMO that has PvP and for PvP players it keeps them honest and only fighting players who want that type of game. I have yet to play a game that has PvP and PvE servers with a flag systemer ever pull it off right.
Then I would stop using terms like "The real TES fans want" or "This is what the customers want" As for the changes to the game, they kept the core design intact. So Im 100% fine with the changes.
Quote me and I will appologise.
At worst I might generalise rather then provide specific quantifiable numbers to each forum and the level of complaints but that is just for ease of conversation. If anyone does use the term then I am pretty confident it is used as a basis for their argument formed from their personal opinion. To read anything more from such a statement ignores the fact that people usually do it to give weight to their statement rather then any actual belief that their proposition actuall is a reflection of "Everyone".
The point I made or at least was trying to make was that, changes are being made for a reason. And it is a fair assumption that the reason is the results from Beta testing, their market research into what 'TES fans' want or more likely a combination of both these and their own internal testing.
I would argue though that the reason they are having to make changes is due to the very fact that they have kept the core design in tact. The reason for each of these changes, workarounds, compromises etc...is simply because, this far into development that are unable to change the core design even if they wanted to (I actually think the core design could be changed but that is just opinion).
When you look at the game from a design point of view it is easy to follow the path back the the root issue. And that root issue is simply that they took a game that is designed around freedoms and openess and built the game around a system they is reliant upon locked and enclosed systems.
I personally think it is a no brainer why there seems to be a backlash that Zenimax are trying to address.
Originally posted by Wakygreek This is a really stupid design decision by the devs. Old information indeed? I just found out about it now, this furthers my worry that this game is going to be made with money and not gamers in mind.
How is giving PvPers a play space that focuses all PvP on one map to give PvPers larger scale battles and leaves a space for PvEers to play without being ganked not with gamers in mind?
They are taking away a part of the world by making players invisible to eachother. While I don't like playing WOW and getting ganked by a higher level player I do appreciate the reality of how the world works. There is no consequence in this world by enemy players even though your in their territory ... that just doesn't make sense. There are better ways to split up the population that has worked in the past and keeps the immersion. You could make everything a safe zone and require /flag pvp, or create contested zones where you are flagged automatically. You can even do an instance system where you go to a battleground. Those work for the most part and is largely accepted by the majority, this system is the wrong approach and will alienate players that would like to be fully immersed and could cause other issues.
You do understand that TESO is not, has never been, and will never be a open world PVP game right? If that's what your looking for you might as well just move on because it's not in the cards. Once you get over that simple fact of life it's not hard to understand the reasoning for this move.
They are doing this so they can reuse the other factions art assets as high level content not for open world PVP. Think of it as different PVE zones if it makes you feel better as that's really what it is. A clone of a lower level zone with higher level content in it.
And I would bet good money that within 2 years at most that you will be able to group up between factions for end game content. That will only last as long as the populations are high. Once they drop off it will be one of the first restrictions to go as it's a easy way to triple the pool of players you can group with.
Originally posted by Wakygreek This is a really stupid design decision by the devs. Old information indeed? I just found out about it now, this furthers my worry that this game is going to be made with money and not gamers in mind.
How is giving PvPers a play space that focuses all PvP on one map to give PvPers larger scale battles and leaves a space for PvEers to play without being ganked not with gamers in mind?
They are taking away a part of the world by making players invisible to eachother. While I don't like playing WOW and getting ganked by a higher level player I do appreciate the reality of how the world works. There is no consequence in this world by enemy players even though your in their territory ... that just doesn't make sense. There are better ways to split up the population that has worked in the past and keeps the immersion. You could make everything a safe zone and require /flag pvp, or create contested zones where you are flagged automatically. You can even do an instance system where you go to a battleground. Those work for the most part and is largely accepted by the majority, this system is the wrong approach and will alienate players that would like to be fully immersed and could cause other issues.
Most PURE PvEers dont like the flag system. Its a old broken system that is to easy to mess with and force people to PvP when they dont want to. Thats why players like that often pick a MMO that is 100% pure PvE because the flag system never really works. The model ESO is using lets PvE players and PvP player live in the same game and never step on anyone toes. As a PvEer that brings in players that would not play in a MMO that has PvP and for PvP players it keeps them honest and only fighting players who want that type of game. I have yet to play a game that has PvP and PvE servers with a flag systemer ever pull it off right.
If I'm not mistaken, Wildstar is going to have a flagging system and Carbine are trying to find solutions to the problem you're talking about.
Though I'll admit, even with the problems, I'll take a coherent gameworld over what Zenimax Online is doing here. Though I think it's better than not letting players visit other alliance zones at all, it'll probably damage the feeling of being in this world.
Also, I think these other faction zones are going to be instanced rather than phased.
Most PURE PvEers dont like the flag system. Its a old broken system that is to easy to mess with and force people to PvP when they dont want to.
Give me 1 example you would be able to get me to flag if I didn't want to. I will be honest and let you know if it would work. I cannot think of a way and no one has ever made me flag but if you can come up with a way then I will be honest.
Originally posted by Wakygreek This is a really stupid design decision by the devs. Old information indeed? I just found out about it now, this furthers my worry that this game is going to be made with money and not gamers in mind.
How is giving PvPers a play space that focuses all PvP on one map to give PvPers larger scale battles and leaves a space for PvEers to play without being ganked not with gamers in mind?
They are taking away a part of the world by making players invisible to eachother. While I don't like playing WOW and getting ganked by a higher level player I do appreciate the reality of how the world works. There is no consequence in this world by enemy players even though your in their territory ... that just doesn't make sense. There are better ways to split up the population that has worked in the past and keeps the immersion. You could make everything a safe zone and require /flag pvp, or create contested zones where you are flagged automatically. You can even do an instance system where you go to a battleground. Those work for the most part and is largely accepted by the majority, this system is the wrong approach and will alienate players that would like to be fully immersed and could cause other issues.
Most PURE PvEers dont like the flag system. Its a old broken system that is to easy to mess with and force people to PvP when they dont want to. Thats why players like that often pick a MMO that is 100% pure PvE because the flag system never really works. The model ESO is using lets PvE players and PvP player live in the same game and never step on anyone toes. As a PvEer that brings in players that would not play in a MMO that has PvP and for PvP players it keeps them honest and only fighting players who want that type of game. I have yet to play a game that has PvP and PvE servers with a flag systemer ever pull it off right.
The current systems are not perfect, but making players invisible to eachother is not the answer and hurts the overall ambiance of a game. The devs need to brainstorm a better answer to this problem aside from everyone being a ghost. You guys may like this but its conflicting with what they are trying to do. What's the point of making it an MMO if your planning on hiding the population? It contradicts itself and their reasoning for doing it is not sufficient.
Originally posted by Wakygreek This is a really stupid design decision by the devs. Old information indeed? I just found out about it now, this furthers my worry that this game is going to be made with money and not gamers in mind.
How is giving PvPers a play space that focuses all PvP on one map to give PvPers larger scale battles and leaves a space for PvEers to play without being ganked not with gamers in mind?
They are taking away a part of the world by making players invisible to eachother. While I don't like playing WOW and getting ganked by a higher level player I do appreciate the reality of how the world works. There is no consequence in this world by enemy players even though your in their territory ... that just doesn't make sense. There are better ways to split up the population that has worked in the past and keeps the immersion. You could make everything a safe zone and require /flag pvp, or create contested zones where you are flagged automatically. You can even do an instance system where you go to a battleground. Those work for the most part and is largely accepted by the majority, this system is the wrong approach and will alienate players that would like to be fully immersed and could cause other issues.
I've never seen a PVP flagging system that made everyone happy AND couldn't be exploited in some way.
The phasing is an ideal solution:
As a PVP'er, anyone you can see you can attack. No need to worry about enemy spies that are unflagged and therefore untouchable.
As a PVE'er, you can amble about in happy carebear land with no limits on where you can roam. In fact, the whole faction choice thing becomes optional to you, as it is in most TES games. No PVP'ers will be jumping in your AoE attacks so they can force you to PVP.
Both camps can access all the world areas and dev-made content in the game. It's like having seperate PVE and PVP servers, except there's no worries regarding population drops and server merges.
The answer is there. He did it with daoc. Drop mega server Have core server with 3 faction pvp, tied DIRECTLY to faction only pve and without this fudge to endgame pve and dodgy stuff like being able to guest. Have coop server where your orc can go pick flowers with your girlfriends high elf in Morrowind and form a guild together, with no pvp. Have ffa server where you can go everywhere, kill anyone and guilds instead of factions contest territory / keeps in cyrodil.
Of course 80% + players would play on the core server anyway, as average Joe mmo player likes both pve and pvp, just not at the same time.
Here is part of the interview that was released today with Matt Firor. I'm not a pvp fan so I don't care about not being able to pvp in other zones, but not only will you not be able to pvp in other faction's zones, but you won't even be able to SEE the other faction when you are questing around at max level in THEIR zone? What??
When playing through the other Alliances’ content at max level, will this experience be separated according to your original Alliance or will you be able to group with friends on the opposing faction?
When you are playing through “other Alliance” max-level content, you’ll be playing with characters like you: from your Alliance, who are all max-level. Every player you see will have come originally from your Alliance.
If you cannot play with the Alliance whose lands you are adventuring through, will this mean PvP in those zones or will the opposition faction players be out of phase?
Originally posted by ShakyMo The answer is there. He did it with daoc. Drop mega server Have core server with 3 faction pvp, tied DIRECTLY to faction only pve and without this fudge to endgame pve and dodgy stuff like being able to guest. Have coop server where your orc can go pick flowers with your girlfriends high elf in Morrowind and form a guild together, with no pvp. Have ffa server where you can go everywhere, kill anyone and guilds instead of factions contest territory / keeps in cyrodil.
Of course 80% + players would play on the core server anyway, as average Joe mmo player likes both pve and pvp, just not at the same time.
Now you just need to come up with 50 million plus and a team of developers to fund and build your dream design.
Originally posted by ReeseFlamelocksIt does kind of make sense that the two groups would not see each other. If it's a PvE area and you are not allowed to PvP, then the two groups would just stare at each other and wonder stupidly why they aren't allowed to attack each other. They would need to justify the peace somehow using divine intervention or via a treaty arrangement in the context of the situation. That would probably be too much of a headache.They already have that in place within the lore.The reason PvP doesn't takes place outside Cyrodil is because, by a sort of gentlemans agreement that is the only place the fighting can take place. If you wre able to image their design as a living breathing world without artificial 'you cannot go here' faction borders then you would have enemy factions walking past each other on the streets, hurling abuse at each other and doing their best not to break the agreement but doing all thy could to get the other side to do so. So this is another 'fudge' because they are constantly digging the whole they are in deeper because their original design was really too restrictive and unable to be opened up easily. They started with a very restrictive, tight design concept and are finding that it needs to be more open but are struggling to do so with any cohesive design. they should have started off with a loose design and tightened it up the closer they can to finalising the actual gameplay and feel they and their customer base wanted. Dont act like you speak for the customer base. You speak for one group of players not the whole of TES fans. As for not fighting in the 3 faction locked areas. This fits real life in every way and real art should reflect real life where possible. Was not till the modern age did we bring war to the other sides home land unless that was the land we were fighting over. This was how wars were fought till we had planes and ships. Where this game is set it fits very well. Also as it stands its the only option for PvP that gives PURE PvEers their space to play and still gives a deep meaningful PvP game space for PvPers. PvP servers and PvE servers with flag system is a old over used model thats broken at its core.
Why would you get to speak for the customer base when Maelwydd doesn't get to speak for the customer base? Seems a little unfair.
Never once did I say, TES customers want x,y,z.. Would you like to show me where I did?
You didn't have to say it. You're trying to speak for all players. You're trying to speak for the artists too.
This fits real life in every way and real art should reflect real life where possible.
Also as it stands its the only option for PvP that gives PURE PvEers their space to play and still gives a deep meaningful PvP game space for PvPers.
If what you're saying is an opinion, and not a statement of fact (which is how you've presented it), then you have to allow for the possibility that the other person is right. You are not allowing for that possibility. That's speaking for other people, including the person you're having a conversation with.
** ** **
I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't speak for everyone, including artists, just that it's not fair that you get to speak for a large number of people, but at the same time you feel that Maelwydd should be restricted from speaking for TES fans.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Johnny asshat decides to "gank some noobs". One of the "noobs" calls his guild mates to sort out Johnny asshat "poof" johnny asshat disappears in a cloud of smoke to a safe pve phase.
The only way to work it is different servers. There is no consequences to your behaviour if you have optional pvp phases. If you pick ffa pvp, it should be did the life if your character, not something you can drop in and out of.
Here is part of the interview that was released today with Matt Firor. I'm not a pvp fan so I don't care about not being able to pvp in other zones, but not only will you not be able to pvp in other faction's zones, but you won't even be able to SEE the other faction when you are questing around at max level in THEIR zone? What??
When playing through the other Alliances’ content at max level, will this experience be separated according to your original Alliance or will you be able to group with friends on the opposing faction?
When you are playing through “other Alliance” max-level content, you’ll be playing with characters like you: from your Alliance, who are all max-level. Every player you see will have come originally from your Alliance.
If you cannot play with the Alliance whose lands you are adventuring through, will this mean PvP in those zones or will the opposition faction players be out of phase?
It's because, when you choose an alience, you become pvp enabeld, so they made instanced, or chanels.
It's auto instance switch.
It's more accurate to say that you pick a race and your alliance is then forced on you, there's no choice involved in alliance membership. That's part of the TES fan's problems with this game.
All this happens at character creation when you pick your race.
Comments
Don't get me wrong.
Gw2 is to daoc as wow is to EQ.
E.g. a kiddie friendly, super casual, simplified and easier version..
Not just WvW compared to frontiers.
Daoc has a shallow gear curve compared to say EQ and wow, gw2 gets rid of it alltogether.
But endgame pve, the difference in the two games "dragon raids" is laughable.
Never once did I say, TES customers want x,y,z.. Would you like to show me where I did?
I agree. I get tired of the empty invocation of the silent majority of TES fans to support critical opinions.
This is an MMO and if it's going to be compared to anything for the purpose of predicting how it will play, it needs to be compared to past MMOs and how similar features worked or didn't work there.
Personally I've disliked this "compromise" to visit the other alliance areas in an empty phase. Although they have said that they are developing new story hooks and arcs to make this coherent, I can't imagine how they will explain the sudden dissapearance of the native player population. Unless it's the usual shark-jumping plot device, time travel...2nd only in popularity among hacks to amnesia. I would still rather visit those areas properly with alts and some other level-50 specific areas.
To me this just seems like a very low-effort way to add many hours of PvE level 50 content. They are working on "real" level 50 content with the separate "adventure zones" but those won't be ready at launch...or so they've said. The fact that they are spinning this phased other alliance PvE content as something to please the masses (?) who want to explore it all with a single character is just marketting double-speak for "hey guys! I just thought of a way to give everyone 200 hours of level 50 content without needing to program anything new...just tweak mobs and loots and presto! instant content."
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I am not speaking for anyone but myself. But if you do not think that these changes are made because enough people, in Zenimax's eyes, are pointing out what they think needs changing (and changes are being made to relect the 'TES fans' desire) then i think you need to ask why.
You can be angry with me all you want, constantly call anyone you disagree with a hater and deny the changes Zenimax themselves are making, but these changes ARE being made because the Beta tests' and perhaps the 'TES fans' (who may or may not be a large subset) are stating their opinions and Zenimax are listenning.
As for your whole "this is how war was fought" statement, the reality is more that war consisted of 1 side attacking the very home of an enemy then retreating with their goods so fighting over some desireous middle ground is inacurate.
I can think of many conflicts that took place in one or other of the combatants homes lands but very few were they fought over land that neither of them possessed. In fact the only conflict I can think of at the moment would be the fight over Jerusalem.
But thats always what happens when you dumb down game design to please the masses. You remove replay value and make current content not as rich. Its a common theme with video games.
So you would suggest 4 factions? Lol, that's more flawed than what you see as limited daoc model. Daoc model did work very well fyi, dunno why you refer to that as a failure. Many games took quite a few elements from it without implementing then in a 100% successful way though. Teso might be one of them.
4 factions especially the last one controlled by NPCS haha. Obviously you're just looking forward to a new TES with online options. This isn't the one is it?
Then I would stop using terms like "The real TES fans want" or "This is what the customers want" As for the changes to the game, they kept the core design intact. So Im 100% fine with the changes.
How is giving PvPers a play space that focuses all PvP on one map to give PvPers larger scale battles and leaves a space for PvEers to play without being ganked not with gamers in mind?
They are taking away a part of the world by making players invisible to eachother. While I don't like playing WOW and getting ganked by a higher level player I do appreciate the reality of how the world works. There is no consequence in this world by enemy players even though your in their territory ... that just doesn't make sense. There are better ways to split up the population that has worked in the past and keeps the immersion. You could make everything a safe zone and require /flag pvp, or create contested zones where you are flagged automatically. You can even do an instance system where you go to a battleground. Those work for the most part and is largely accepted by the majority, this system is the wrong approach and will alienate players that would like to be fully immersed and could cause other issues.
Most PURE PvEers dont like the flag system. Its a old broken system that is to easy to mess with and force people to PvP when they dont want to. Thats why players like that often pick a MMO that is 100% pure PvE because the flag system never really works. The model ESO is using lets PvE players and PvP player live in the same game and never step on anyone toes. As a PvEer that brings in players that would not play in a MMO that has PvP and for PvP players it keeps them honest and only fighting players who want that type of game. I have yet to play a game that has PvP and PvE servers with a flag systemer ever pull it off right.
Quote me and I will appologise.
At worst I might generalise rather then provide specific quantifiable numbers to each forum and the level of complaints but that is just for ease of conversation. If anyone does use the term then I am pretty confident it is used as a basis for their argument formed from their personal opinion. To read anything more from such a statement ignores the fact that people usually do it to give weight to their statement rather then any actual belief that their proposition actuall is a reflection of "Everyone".
The point I made or at least was trying to make was that, changes are being made for a reason. And it is a fair assumption that the reason is the results from Beta testing, their market research into what 'TES fans' want or more likely a combination of both these and their own internal testing.
I would argue though that the reason they are having to make changes is due to the very fact that they have kept the core design in tact. The reason for each of these changes, workarounds, compromises etc...is simply because, this far into development that are unable to change the core design even if they wanted to (I actually think the core design could be changed but that is just opinion).
When you look at the game from a design point of view it is easy to follow the path back the the root issue. And that root issue is simply that they took a game that is designed around freedoms and openess and built the game around a system they is reliant upon locked and enclosed systems.
I personally think it is a no brainer why there seems to be a backlash that Zenimax are trying to address.
You do understand that TESO is not, has never been, and will never be a open world PVP game right? If that's what your looking for you might as well just move on because it's not in the cards. Once you get over that simple fact of life it's not hard to understand the reasoning for this move.
They are doing this so they can reuse the other factions art assets as high level content not for open world PVP. Think of it as different PVE zones if it makes you feel better as that's really what it is. A clone of a lower level zone with higher level content in it.
And I would bet good money that within 2 years at most that you will be able to group up between factions for end game content. That will only last as long as the populations are high. Once they drop off it will be one of the first restrictions to go as it's a easy way to triple the pool of players you can group with.
It was just a fudge to a 99% pve orientated game, add flip a switch pvp servers so we can put "got pvp" on the back of the game box.
If I'm not mistaken, Wildstar is going to have a flagging system and Carbine are trying to find solutions to the problem you're talking about.
Though I'll admit, even with the problems, I'll take a coherent gameworld over what Zenimax Online is doing here. Though I think it's better than not letting players visit other alliance zones at all, it'll probably damage the feeling of being in this world.
Also, I think these other faction zones are going to be instanced rather than phased.
Give me 1 example you would be able to get me to flag if I didn't want to. I will be honest and let you know if it would work. I cannot think of a way and no one has ever made me flag but if you can come up with a way then I will be honest.
Also, how DARE you speak for most PURE PvEers!!!
The current systems are not perfect, but making players invisible to eachother is not the answer and hurts the overall ambiance of a game. The devs need to brainstorm a better answer to this problem aside from everyone being a ghost. You guys may like this but its conflicting with what they are trying to do. What's the point of making it an MMO if your planning on hiding the population? It contradicts itself and their reasoning for doing it is not sufficient.
I've never seen a PVP flagging system that made everyone happy AND couldn't be exploited in some way.
The phasing is an ideal solution:
As a PVP'er, anyone you can see you can attack. No need to worry about enemy spies that are unflagged and therefore untouchable.
As a PVE'er, you can amble about in happy carebear land with no limits on where you can roam. In fact, the whole faction choice thing becomes optional to you, as it is in most TES games. No PVP'ers will be jumping in your AoE attacks so they can force you to PVP.
Both camps can access all the world areas and dev-made content in the game. It's like having seperate PVE and PVP servers, except there's no worries regarding population drops and server merges.
Drop mega server
Have core server with 3 faction pvp, tied DIRECTLY to faction only pve and without this fudge to endgame pve and dodgy stuff like being able to guest.
Have coop server where your orc can go pick flowers with your girlfriends high elf in Morrowind and form a guild together, with no pvp.
Have ffa server where you can go everywhere, kill anyone and guilds instead of factions contest territory / keeps in cyrodil.
Of course 80% + players would play on the core server anyway, as average Joe mmo player likes both pve and pvp, just not at the same time.
It's because, when you choose an alience, you become pvp enabeld, so they made instanced, or chanels.
It's auto instance switch.
Now you just need to come up with 50 million plus and a team of developers to fund and build your dream design.
If what you're saying is an opinion, and not a statement of fact (which is how you've presented it), then you have to allow for the possibility that the other person is right. You are not allowing for that possibility. That's speaking for other people, including the person you're having a conversation with.
** ** **
I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't speak for everyone, including artists, just that it's not fair that you get to speak for a large number of people, but at the same time you feel that Maelwydd should be restricted from speaking for TES fans.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
No that would be rife with exploitation.
Johnny asshat decides to "gank some noobs".
One of the "noobs" calls his guild mates to sort out Johnny asshat
"poof" johnny asshat disappears in a cloud of smoke to a safe pve phase.
The only way to work it is different servers. There is no consequences to your behaviour if you have optional pvp phases. If you pick ffa pvp, it should be did the life if your character, not something you can drop in and out of.
It's more accurate to say that you pick a race and your alliance is then forced on you, there's no choice involved in alliance membership. That's part of the TES fan's problems with this game.
All this happens at character creation when you pick your race.