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Pirated copies of Dev Tycoon cause players to go bankrupt because of pirating.

YaevinduskYaevindusk Ul''dah, CAPosts: 1,537Member Uncommon

 

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-04-29-game-dev-tycoon-forces-those-who-pirate-the-game-to-unwittingly-fail-from-piracy

 

It's all over the web, and I haven't seen it on the first couple of pages here.  An indie team developed a Game Developer Tycoon like game, making sure the inevitable cracked version online would have a few extra codes in it so that those who pirated the game will eventually go bankrupt in due to -- you guessed it -- pirating.

 

"Guys I reached some point where if I make a decent game with score 9-10 it gets pirated and I can't make any profit." (quote from link above)

"It says blah blah our game got pirated stuff like that. Is there some way to avoid that? I mean can I research a DRM or something?" (quote from link above)

 "Why are there so many people that pirate? It ruins me! Not fair." (quote from link above)

 

Many are calling this poetic justice, but what are your thoughts?  The developers report the sales of a day being 3,318, with 3,104 being pirated (a total sale of just over two hundred copies for this indie developer).  The price of the game is just a little over seven dollars.

 

 

 

When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

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Comments

  • NyrrhoNyrrho Sacramento, CAPosts: 53Member

    Absolutely genius! 

    It's very sad that over 90% of the copies being played are pirated. The fact that the people who pirated the game will go bankrupt due to piracy is, in my opinion, hilariously justified.

  • TheHavokTheHavok San Jose, CAPosts: 2,398Member Uncommon
    I'm not going to lie, I use to torrent and pirate a ton of stuff when I was a teenager.  But when I joined the workforce at age 18, I took pride in managing my money and buying things <span vk_bk"="">legitimately.  I also just grew to hate the act of stealing - of cheating the system to get what you want.  Yeah I know, things are expensive.  Internet, phone, insurance, and all the other bills start adding up and you start to feel that you are being used by these major corporations.  But, in terms of pirating games, music, and movies, why not support the things you love?  Support the artist and the studio behind them.  Support what gives you joy!
  • IchmenIchmen Winnipeg, MBPosts: 1,228Member

    meh i will continue to pirate games via torrents until such times as companies wise the fk up and actually provide a decent demo of the product the expect me to spend my cash on.  i refuse to buy simcity 2013 until i have "demo"ed it to know its worth my time/money. honestly the only game companies that i have seen who complain the most about pirated software are typically ones like EA who never provide a demo  of the product and expect people to buy it for hype/brand name/ or just because they like to rimjob the company CEO

    i find it ironic that game studios in the 90s like apogee could make a fortune on their games while releasing shareware of it yet now days with how fast the net is now.. we cant have a simple fking demo of The Sims or simcity or battlefield/cod 1234567890

    while i do not support piracy for the sake of pirating it, i do support pirating for the sake of testing it to see if its worth it. 

    too many people pirate just to get out of paying for it period, which is where i disagree with it. BUT if there is no demo of the item no fking way will i drop $0.99-$1000 on it. QQ all you want at me for it, the only studio that i support as a diehard fan is Relic(cause they are local) and  Old THQ (#nvr4get #cryevrytime)

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  • RednecksithRednecksith Madison heights, MIPosts: 1,238Member
    Bloody brilliant. Well played, sirs!
  • asrlohzasrlohz UddevallaPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by Ichmen

    meh i will continue to pirate games via torrents until such times as companies wise the fk up and actually provide a decent demo of the product the expect me to spend my cash on.  i refuse to buy simcity 2013 until i have "demo"ed it to know its worth my time/money. honestly the only game companies that i have seen who complain the most about pirated software are typically ones like EA who never provide a demo  of the product and expect people to buy it for hype/brand name/ or just because they like to rimjob the company CEO

    i find it ironic that game studios in the 90s like apogee could make a fortune on their games while releasing shareware of it yet now days with how fast the net is now.. we cant have a simple fking demo of The Sims or simcity or battlefield/cod 1234567890

    while i do not support piracy for the sake of pirating it, i do support pirating for the sake of testing it to see if its worth it. 

    too many people pirate just to get out of paying for it period, which is where i disagree with it. BUT if there is no demo of the item no fking way will i drop $0.99-$1000 on it. QQ all you want at me for it, the only studio that i support as a diehard fan is Relic(cause they are local) and  Old THQ (#nvr4get #cryevrytime)

    Or you could just watch some online reviews or something. Piracy is pathetic, especially if you have the money to buy it. I doubt you need to purchase more than one game every month so you have no excuse for pirating games. You are harming the market and encouraging more DRM and you are whining about that there is no demo for SimCity. That is not justified. People are losing their jobs because of pirates like you.

    image
  • IchmenIchmen Winnipeg, MBPosts: 1,228Member

    im not whining there is no demo, im stating a fact that there is no demo. also trusting a reviewer's PoV on a game is stupid as fk. thats the same as trusting a MMO's hype meter... i play games for MY enjoyment not because angry joe or TB love the game or the studio or they were paid to say its the best thing EVER!!!!!111

     

    no whats hurting the market is not pirates. its the fact studios continue to push out garbageware for 59.99 while claiming its the best thing since sex while infact its as enjoyable as swimming in a septic tank.

    i also buy several games a month IF they are worth it and i can afford it.  sadly there is so much garbageware out there now i stick to indie titles like towns/gnomoria/ect 

    but funny thing... those small 1-5man indy teams... ACTUALLY put out a demo of their titles.. so oh look i didnt have to torrent them to try them out shocking i know

    yet EA/maxis cant make demos for The sims or simcity lolololololol

     

    demo = better chance of the game being bought

    no demo = 1 of two things "a" pirating the title before buying it or "b" never touching the title and viewing all future titles from said company as junk. 

    case in point, they lose no money from me. as they wouldnt gain any money either.  even if i dont torrent their title to demo it they wouldnt get a cent if i didnt view it as worth it. im not buying anymore crap games like i did with stronghold 3 or the sims 3...(And those were preorders/CE too...)

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  • asrlohzasrlohz UddevallaPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by Ichmen

    im not whining there is no demo, im stating a fact that there is no demo. also trusting a reviewer's PoV on a game is stupid as fk. thats the same as trusting a MMO's hype meter... i play games for MY enjoyment not because angry joe or TB love the game or the studio or they were paid to say its the best thing EVER!!!!!111

     

    no whats hurting the market is not pirates. its the fact studios continue to push out garbageware for 59.99 while claiming its the best thing since sex while infact its as enjoyable as swimming in a septic tank.

    i also buy several games a month IF they are worth it and i can afford it.  sadly there is so much garbageware out there now i stick to indie titles like towns/gnomoria/ect 

    but funny thing... those small 1-5man indy teams... ACTUALLY put out a demo of their titles.. so oh look i didnt have to torrent them to try them out shocking i know

    yet EA/maxis cant make demos for The sims or simcity lolololololol

     

    demo = better chance of the game being bought

    no demo = 1 of two things "a" pirating the title before buying it or "b" never touching the title and viewing all future titles from said company as junk. 

    case in point, they lose no money from me. as they wouldnt gain any money either.  even if i dont torrent their title to demo it they wouldnt get a cent if i didnt view it as worth it. im not buying anymore crap games like i did with stronghold 3 or the sims 3...(And those were preorders/CE too...)

    The demo is more often than not a poor represantation of the game than a good one. A game like SimCity (haven't played a SimCity since 2000 mind you) couldn't be fun in a demo because of the time and buildings that it takes to build a proper city. The fun part about SimCity is to build something from scratch that gets big, and since all mechanics gets gradually better from the beginning of one road to a buzzling city it's really not fun the first 20-40 minutes.

     

     

    And let's be honest, you still have a ton of those games that you were just going to "try" before purchase that you've finished and never bought because "they weren't worth $60 dollar".

    It also sounds like it is your fault that you pre-order games blindly instead of waiting for one week after release to hear what the general opinion is. Just go and listen to Total Biscuit's review instead.

    image
  • CKPlayGameCKPlayGame Lloydminster, ABPosts: 30Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by asrlohz
    Originally posted by Ichmen

    im not whining there is no demo, im stating a fact that there is no demo. also trusting a reviewer's PoV on a game is stupid as fk. thats the same as trusting a MMO's hype meter... i play games for MY enjoyment not because angry joe or TB love the game or the studio or they were paid to say its the best thing EVER!!!!!111

     

    no whats hurting the market is not pirates. its the fact studios continue to push out garbageware for 59.99 while claiming its the best thing since sex while infact its as enjoyable as swimming in a septic tank.

    i also buy several games a month IF they are worth it and i can afford it.  sadly there is so much garbageware out there now i stick to indie titles like towns/gnomoria/ect 

    but funny thing... those small 1-5man indy teams... ACTUALLY put out a demo of their titles.. so oh look i didnt have to torrent them to try them out shocking i know

    yet EA/maxis cant make demos for The sims or simcity lolololololol

     

    demo = better chance of the game being bought

    no demo = 1 of two things "a" pirating the title before buying it or "b" never touching the title and viewing all future titles from said company as junk. 

    case in point, they lose no money from me. as they wouldnt gain any money either.  even if i dont torrent their title to demo it they wouldnt get a cent if i didnt view it as worth it. im not buying anymore crap games like i did with stronghold 3 or the sims 3...(And those were preorders/CE too...)

    The demo is more often than not a poor represantation of the game than a good one. A game like SimCity (haven't played a SimCity since 2000 mind you) couldn't be fun in a demo because of the time and buildings that it takes to build a proper city. The fun part about SimCity is to build something from scratch that gets big, and since all mechanics gets gradually better from the beginning of one road to a buzzling city it's really not fun the first 20-40 minutes.

     

     

    And let's be honest, you still have a ton of those games that you were just going to "try" before purchase that you've finished and never bought because "they weren't worth $60 dollar".

    It also sounds like it is your fault that you pre-order games blindly instead of waiting for one week after release to hear what the general opinion is. Just go and listen to Total Biscuit's review instead.

    You can have a smaller city, less options, less structures and so on.....

    Demo is a good way to sell a good game -- not bad games though.

     

  • IchmenIchmen Winnipeg, MBPosts: 1,228Member

    there have only been a few demos that were horrible when placed next to the gold copy. i find the argument that building a road in simcity would suck comparied to a full release title. 

    do to the fact you can get demos of tropico and other such micromanagement games that are damn near the same thing as simcity. same with the sims, maxis (before being owned by EA) put out a "demo" for spore so lol there is no excuse for not being able to release a demo, or put out a trial of a game like most MMOs have where you can only play for X hours. 

    towns you had a few "days" ingame to play it before it booted you back to menu screen. but its enough to try out the game and see if you want to buy it. hell minecraft has a time based trial for it now... so any excuse that X title cant support a demo cause it would suck.. is BS

    but again, taking the PoV of a reviewer over personal view is moot. i could be a reviewer for mcdonalds ... does that mean their burgers are the best thing ever and totally worth 59.99 simply because i say so?? 

    as for games iv torrented, i have none.  i download a title play it abit see if its enjoyable then i buy it or delete it. i did that with fallout new vegas when i got that title on steam same with gnomoria and towns. only have legal copies installed. 

    pirating is bad sure, if you pirate for the sake of getting the product for free.  BUT if they dont even give you a demo to find out if its worth it. whats the point in buying it a 1000 people can marry the game. that doesnt mean YOU will like it. 

    millions love WoW, yet I personally hate WoW having played a few hours of vanilla.. yet with your statement Asrlohz because millions love it, i should buy it....... cause you know... they all share my PoV on games and mechanics and such and so many reviewers want to marry blizzard.... (facepalm)

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  • asrlohzasrlohz UddevallaPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by Ichmen

    there have only been a few demos that were horrible when placed next to the gold copy. i find the argument that building a road in simcity would suck comparied to a full release title. 

    do to the fact you can get demos of tropico and other such micromanagement games that are damn near the same thing as simcity. same with the sims, maxis (before being owned by EA) put out a "demo" for spore so lol there is no excuse for not being able to release a demo, or put out a trial of a game like most MMOs have where you can only play for X hours. 

    towns you had a few "days" ingame to play it before it booted you back to menu screen. but its enough to try out the game and see if you want to buy it. hell minecraft has a time based trial for it now... so any excuse that X title cant support a demo cause it would suck.. is BS

    but again, taking the PoV of a reviewer over personal view is moot. i could be a reviewer for mcdonalds ... does that mean their burgers are the best thing ever and totally worth 59.99 simply because i say so?? 

    as for games iv torrented, i have none.  i download a title play it abit see if its enjoyable then i buy it or delete it. i did that with fallout new vegas when i got that title on steam same with gnomoria and towns. only have legal copies installed. 

    pirating is bad sure, if you pirate for the sake of getting the product for free.  BUT if they dont even give you a demo to find out if its worth it. whats the point in buying it a 1000 people can marry the game. that doesnt mean YOU will like it. 

    millions love WoW, yet I personally hate WoW having played a few hours of vanilla.. yet with your statement Asrlohz because millions love it, i should buy it....... cause you know... they all share my PoV on games and mechanics and such and so many reviewers want to marry blizzard.... (facepalm)

    I'm not defending SimCity. I'm saying that it is a slow game. Games like spore focus a lot on each and every stage by adding fun and interactive mechanics for the game gradually. Personally I really enjoyed the first stage of Spore and the rest I found kind of "meh-ish".

    And reviewers are reviewers because they are good at it. I will once more recommend TotalBiscuit because he has logical and thorough reviews. You are just trying to justify that you pirate $10 dollar titles and indie games because you are too cheap and lazy to check a couple of gameplay videos or listen to a review or two before you buy the game.

    And to your McDonalds reference: Do you go into McDonalds and ask if you can have a burger for free because you want to know if you would purchase any junkfood there in the future? In anycase you are just trying to justify that you are a pirate. You can't justify that, you are denying honest, hard-working developers their sales. And yes, EA is kind of a terrible company as it is, but stop placing your trust in them then.

     

    MMO's are different, by the way, it takes more than a couple of hours to get into an MMO. And yes, I dislike World of Warcraft as well but most MMO's put out trial keys after 6 months or a year so you have no bloody excuse. Plus, nobody plays WoW because it is a great game with the best AI and the most glorious graphics and terrific gameplay.

     

    Edit: In hindsight, this is silly and I will not debate this with you any further.

    image
  • dgarbinidgarbini San Jose, CAPosts: 185Member

    Dear game companies, we will stop pirating as soon as you refund us for every time we were cheated, screwed, lied to, and stop those bad business practices.

     

    On a serious note, I do feel for some of these indie developers, and to be honest they are probably the biggest victims of the large game companies bad practices.  Because even though they may have done no wrong, the consumer is so jaded and skeptical by the time they reach their product it is a very hard sell.  I deal with small businesses all the time this is a common trend across all industries.  And the piracy statistics are actually worse for these smaller cheaper games ironically, because the consumer is sketpical and jaded.  So its better to not be sketpical about games from companies like EA, when you know they will be crap?  Thats one thing I dont understand, and I really do feel for small businesses trying to operate in this corperate world, it is extremely difficult.

     

    Also the statistics show that avid pirates spend more on gaming then non-pirates, so technically they do help the game industry more then they hurt it.  A lot of pirates actually do buy the games they demo and enjoy statistically, and look at major hit games they still do very well.  And there are all kinds of different piracy so it is not so easy just to lump them together.  I do suggest anyone interested in the topic watch the Jimquisition series on it, he put it fairly well (ep35-37).  Some people pirate things they already own (because of DLC or it broke etc), some people pirate things they cannot buy in their country (I do this often), some people pirate things that no longer sell (game companies are dead), some pirate for a demo.

     

    But I do think what they did here is cute, maybe a little short sited.  Alienating your customer base is never a good thing.  But it got me to look at a game that I have never heard of.

  • IchmenIchmen Winnipeg, MBPosts: 1,228Member

    rofl actually i do watch TBs reviews but again i will point out, his game play style and choices for games are not mine. all he does is shows me X title exists and is worth my time/effort to pull up the game's site to research it. 

    as for being cheap and lazy thats a pretty stupid statement to make as you do not know me personally lolol

    i choose who i spend my money on if they provide me with a means to try out their product first.  i know mcdonalds sucks but when i want a cheap burger thats an option lolol though i dont eat there crap. you continue to say OH believe game reviewers and random youtube videos on games cause they are 100% trust worthy.. same as OH believe the hype meter for X game because hype meters are 100% trust worthy....

    heres a good statement for you... game reviewers claimed colonial marine was a great game.. yet its garbage and they are now saying as such.. (regardless if it was a bait & switch or not, most reviews on it before release was it was a killer game)

    if YOU personally wanna be a sheep and follow what everyone else plays because X reviewer said to buy it, thats your choice.

    i do not support game studies indy or mega if their game title are crap. theres enough fake indie games out there trying to turn a quick buck by throwing out junk worse then the best asian cookie cutter studio can rehash a rehashed title.  IF a game has a demo they have a better chance of me buying it then if they dont.  without a demo i will torrent it first before i buy it should it pass my style of game play.

    if you expect me to pay 59.99 for windows minesweeper without a demo, just because TB or angry joe or some random youtuber put out a lets play or review on it... you are sadly mistaken, i wouldnt expect them to buy a game from me without demoing it first so dont expect me to buy it either.

     

    the pirates you want to bitch at, are the ones who pirate for the sake of owning the title without paying for it, the very people who bitch and whine at the devs because their illegal copy is broken and expect the devs to fix it. 

    i on the other hand expect it to be broken i do not complain when the cracked version breaks a save game or the game randomly crashes half way though the mission. as long as the game is enjoyable and lives up to what is being promised i generally buy the game. if its a piece of crap and plays like it regardless of other issues well it only cements the reason behind them not putting out a demo for it. as its a cashcow title and not a real value for money title that is being passed off as.

     

    why else do you think so many crappy games are being sold now without a demo... people like you buy them without trying them first wasting your money on garbage because you think its best thing ever simply because some video said it was....

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  • YaevinduskYaevindusk Ul''dah, CAPosts: 1,537Member Uncommon

     

    I'd like to think this is more so a thread about how one might feel about the Indie developers that still have to deal with rampant pirating.  The game itself is $7.99 or so, and yet 93% of the game distribution was pirated.

     

    What people think of this, and not the various reasons one might have when it's something directed towards the bigger game companies with tripple A titles.

     

    Is this just something that independant developers just have to deal with?  Is it perhaps why we don't see as much innovation, or why we rarely see indie titles succeed if they're not backed by a big name (whether it be from publishing or by an influencial member of the media)?  Does pirating inhibit the creation and proliferation of new titles and new ideas?  These moral stances that many take, do most recognize that there are (potential) negatives as well as whatever (potential) positives they claim?  Perhaps if one so strongly believed in the positives of piracy, is it apparent (or even relative?) that their claims may be "adopted" by someone who just wants to use those grounds to get free games (and thus potentially harm developers such as this)?

     

    It was mentioned earlier that it is the practices of bigger companies that really screw the little ones; that we perhaps get our view points and tendancies regarding pirating due to the actions of these corporate entities.  Do we think that we just naturally judge indie games more harshly than we should?  Ignore their need for money (no matter how much a certain product costs) and just stick to what we know in potentially harming a new developer?  Or perhaps it is just that people who want "demos" of a game only really do so when it is a sizable sum, and when there is something new (or with little interest to the general gaming community as a whole) only the "bad" pirates come out with intents to save a couple dollars and never intending on buying the game?

     

    I have my own ideas regarding these questions, but as the original poster I'd like to keep those ideas to myself and simply ask question to keep the topic "on rails" rather than lose any sort of objectivity/neutrality by wording my opinions.

     

    When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  • KhinRuniteKhinRunite ManilaPosts: 879Member
    Originally posted by asrlohz
    Originally posted by Ichmen

    there have only been a few demos that were horrible when placed next to the gold copy. i find the argument that building a road in simcity would suck comparied to a full release title. 

    do to the fact you can get demos of tropico and other such micromanagement games that are damn near the same thing as simcity. same with the sims, maxis (before being owned by EA) put out a "demo" for spore so lol there is no excuse for not being able to release a demo, or put out a trial of a game like most MMOs have where you can only play for X hours. 

    towns you had a few "days" ingame to play it before it booted you back to menu screen. but its enough to try out the game and see if you want to buy it. hell minecraft has a time based trial for it now... so any excuse that X title cant support a demo cause it would suck.. is BS

    but again, taking the PoV of a reviewer over personal view is moot. i could be a reviewer for mcdonalds ... does that mean their burgers are the best thing ever and totally worth 59.99 simply because i say so?? 

    as for games iv torrented, i have none.  i download a title play it abit see if its enjoyable then i buy it or delete it. i did that with fallout new vegas when i got that title on steam same with gnomoria and towns. only have legal copies installed. 

    pirating is bad sure, if you pirate for the sake of getting the product for free.  BUT if they dont even give you a demo to find out if its worth it. whats the point in buying it a 1000 people can marry the game. that doesnt mean YOU will like it. 

    millions love WoW, yet I personally hate WoW having played a few hours of vanilla.. yet with your statement Asrlohz because millions love it, i should buy it....... cause you know... they all share my PoV on games and mechanics and such and so many reviewers want to marry blizzard.... (facepalm)

    I'm not defending SimCity. I'm saying that it is a slow game. Games like spore focus a lot on each and every stage by adding fun and interactive mechanics for the game gradually. Personally I really enjoyed the first stage of Spore and the rest I found kind of "meh-ish".

    And reviewers are reviewers because they are good at it. I will once more recommend TotalBiscuit because he has logical and thorough reviews. You are just trying to justify that you pirate $10 dollar titles and indie games because you are too cheap and lazy to check a couple of gameplay videos or listen to a review or two before you buy the game.

    And to your McDonalds reference: Do you go into McDonalds and ask if you can have a burger for free because you want to know if you would purchase any junkfood there in the future? In anycase you are just trying to justify that you are a pirate. You can't justify that, you are denying honest, hard-working developers their sales. And yes, EA is kind of a terrible company as it is, but stop placing your trust in them then.

     

    MMO's are different, by the way, it takes more than a couple of hours to get into an MMO. And yes, I dislike World of Warcraft as well but most MMO's put out trial keys after 6 months or a year so you have no bloody excuse. Plus, nobody plays WoW because it is a great game with the best AI and the most glorious graphics and terrific gameplay.

     

    Edit: In hindsight, this is silly and I will not debate this with you any further.

    Wake up to the real world.

    You can try clothes on before buying them. You can test drive cars. Perfumes have trial bottles. Generally you can't sample food and drinks but that's because they're consumables. Asking for a game demo is NOT the same as asking for food tasting.

    You may be fine heeding the judgment of other people such as TB, but other people still prefer firsthand experience. For example, you can't "feel" input lag by watching videos...that's something you can only tell by yourself. Even if reviewers say the game is responsive, you can't be sure if they meet your standards, so you have to demo it. Fact is, demos are not impossible to do. With the proper mindset, developers can put up a demo that will showcase what their game has to offer without giving too much away. A lot of developers don't bother though, because they prefer riding on the hype and relying on the gullibility of the mass consumer.

    Your "hardworking" developer will still be out of a job regardless of people pirating their games or not. In a scenario where people could surmise that the game is "bad" by watching gameplay videos and reviews, the company still gets nothing. Don't blame piracy as a black and white cause for developer bankruptcy. There are many reasons why people pirate, and in this case it is justified.

    Piracy is just as bad as games with no demos are dishonest.

    In case you'll just brush this off while still ignorantly believeing Piracy = Evil, then I'm gonna ask you again.

    Wake up to the real world.

  • IchmenIchmen Winnipeg, MBPosts: 1,228Member
    Originally posted by Yaevindusk

     

    I'd like to think this is more so a thread about how one might feel about the Indie developers that still have to deal with rampant pirating.  The game itself is $7.99 or so, and yet 93% of the game distribution was pirated.

     

    What people think of this, and not the various reasons one might have when it's something directed towards the bigger game companies with tripple A titles.

     

    Is this just something that independant developers just have to deal with?  Is it perhaps why we don't see as much innovation, or why we rarely see indie titles succeed if they're not backed by a big name (whether it be from publishing or by an influencial member of the media)?  Does pirating inhibit the creation and proliferation of new titles and new ideas?  These moral stances that many take, do most recognize that there are (potential) negatives as well as whatever (potential) positives they claim?  Perhaps if one so strongly believed in the positives of piracy, is it apparent (or even relative?) that their claims may be "adopted" by someone who just wants to use those grounds to get free games (and thus potentially harm developers such as this)?

     

    It was mentioned earlier that it is the practices of bigger companies that really screw the little ones; that we perhaps get our view points and tendancies regarding pirating due to the actions of these corporate entities.  Do we think that we just naturally judge indie games more harshly than we should?  Ignore their need for money (no matter how much a certain product costs) and just stick to what we know in potentially harming a new developer?  Or perhaps it is just that people who want "demos" of a game only really do so when it is a sizable sum, and when there is something new (or with little interest to the general gaming community as a whole) only the "bad" pirates come out with intents to save a couple dollars and never intending on buying the game?

     

    I have my own ideas regarding these questions, but as the original poster I'd like to keep those ideas to myself and simply ask question to keep the topic "on rails" rather than lose any sort of objectivity/neutrality by wording my opinions.

     

    idk about anyone else but as you are the OP id love to hear your own views on this subject, but as per your question yes the little guy gets crapped on by the bigger studios. its just how it is, much like a hotdog vender selling out of a small cart on the corner of a street gets screwed by the bigger chains. 

    indies are forever going to be screwed by guys like EA. that isnt to say the indies dont have their own faults as i have seen many wannabe indy teams trying to shovel really crappy buggy games out to people as gold released titles using the excuse they are small 1-10man teams so should be forgiven their 0.99-999.99 title is only 10% polished or finished... but for the rest tha really do try hard to make their game enjoyable (gnomoria for example) they will always get a black eye thanks to other failure devs. simply because they are trying to make it in the same field.  all they can do is take the faults the other studios do/make and try to not repeat those them selves while putting out a top title. 

     

    my self i judge studios based on their track record and what they are trying sell me, if its their first ever title and its being marketed out as the best thing ever (AAAAAAAAAA quality) yet a 2yr old smashing their hands on keyboard could program better... well ofcourse i wont be the nicest person.. though no one should as these people are trying to demand you give them money for garbage.  no one wants to pay money for crap so why should we be expected to??

    though id rather see indies succeed personally as most of the indie games iv played/bought have been pretty bloody good better then some of the top titles out there for a vastly cheaper cost. (doesnt mean i will buy them without trying them first, or want them to sell me garbage)

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  • BlecodBlecod KaunasPosts: 28Member Uncommon
    It's a great idea and all, but I feel like they are trying to stop a bear by spiting in it's eye and angering it. It might shame the bear for a while, but it's going to be back.
  • mastersam21mastersam21 Long Beach, CAPosts: 43Member Uncommon
    While I dont condone piracy I also don't believe its the main reason for poor sales on anything that claims it to be.  Out of those  3100 people that pirated how many would of spent that $7 to buy? Sure there might be some, but I bet nowhere near that 3000 mark. Some developers like to blame piracy making themselves out to be the victims, but as a poster above said a lot of studios and publishers are very misleading with there marketing. Poetic Justice? I dont think so. If i even bothered to pirate their game I couldnt careless and just move on, no harm no foul on me unless I really liked the game then ill support them.

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  • PieRadPieRad Odense MPosts: 1,108Member
    All I gotta say to this is.... Better than always online DRM.

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  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,924Member Uncommon

    I found this hilarious honestly.

     

     I'm kind of doubting of the numbers though. Sorry, just don't buy that (haha pun intended accidentally!).

     

    Piracy is an issue to a degree, but its no where near what its hyped up to be. Heck, google up and you see a lot of creators say this very thing. Not everyone that pirates is not purchasing the game. A lot of people do pirate due to not having access to the game in their region or even will pirate the game only to buy it after. Sadly, when you have no demo or way for people to try it, your basically ASKING for people to do so. We don't all have money growing on trees to randomly buy any game we see haphazardly, we like to see what its like first.

     

    None the less, I find it quite enjoyable to see this done. It tempts me to download it, though I have a feeling it might be used as a rather poor way to try and prove a point through data manipulation. Its quite bad as it is that Piracy is being used as a reason to have DRM, despite its real reasons being to make more cash off consumers instead through stopping used games or pushing for purchases in 'cash shops' of sorts. 

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yaevindusk

     

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-04-29-game-dev-tycoon-forces-those-who-pirate-the-game-to-unwittingly-fail-from-piracy

     

    It's all over the web, and I haven't seen it on the first couple of pages here.  An indie team developed a Game Developer Tycoon like game, making sure the inevitable cracked version online would have a few extra codes in it so that those who pirated the game will eventually go bankrupt in due to -- you guessed it -- pirating.

     

    "Guys I reached some point where if I make a decent game with score 9-10 it gets pirated and I can't make any profit." (quote from link above)

    "It says blah blah our game got pirated stuff like that. Is there some way to avoid that? I mean can I research a DRM or something?" (quote from link above)

     "Why are there so many people that pirate? It ruins me! Not fair." (quote from link above)

     

    Many are calling this poetic justice, but what are your thoughts?  The developers report the sales of a day being 3,318, with 3,104 being pirated (a total sale of just over two hundred copies for this indie developer).  The price of the game is just a little over seven dollars.

     

     

     

    This kind of stuff has been aronud for some time..

    I cant remember what it was called not but FPS games used to use it a lot.. basically it would let you play the game but it would eventually get to the point where the AI would just wipe the floor with you and there was nothing you could do about it.

    AH yeah it was called FADE I think.

     

    I think more games should use this type of thing. Its not somthing that happens right away so you can get to try out the game if you like but at some point it basically gets impossible for you to complete.. Its a perfect system really as it stops those people bitching about trying the game before buying..

  • ConsequenceConsequence Lake Worth, FLPosts: 358Member
    Originally posted by mastersam21
    While I dont condone piracy I also don't believe its the main reason for poor sales on anything that claims it to be.  Out of those  3100 people that pirated how many would of spent that $7 to buy? Sure there might be some, but I bet nowhere near that 3000 mark. Some developers like to blame piracy making themselves out to be the victims, but as a poster above said a lot of studios and publishers are very misleading with there marketing. Poetic Justice? I dont think so. If i even bothered to pirate their game I couldnt careless and just move on, no harm no foul on me unless I really liked the game then ill support them.

    That really is irrelevant tho. Those who pirated it are still stealing, even if they wouldnt have purchased it to begin with. Of those 3000, undoubtably some would have purchased it instead of stealing, even if it was just a few it doent make it ok.

     

    I find the story humorous but am also disturbed by it.

     

     

     

  • mastersam21mastersam21 Long Beach, CAPosts: 43Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Consequence
    Originally posted by mastersam21
    While I dont condone piracy I also don't believe its the main reason for poor sales on anything that claims it to be.  Out of those  3100 people that pirated how many would of spent that $7 to buy? Sure there might be some, but I bet nowhere near that 3000 mark. Some developers like to blame piracy making themselves out to be the victims, but as a poster above said a lot of studios and publishers are very misleading with there marketing. Poetic Justice? I dont think so. If i even bothered to pirate their game I couldnt careless and just move on, no harm no foul on me unless I really liked the game then ill support them.

    That really is irrelevant tho. Those who pirated it are still stealing, even if they wouldnt have purchased it to begin with. Of those 3000, undoubtably some would have purchased it instead of stealing, even if it was just a few it doent make it ok.

     

    I find the story humorous but am also disturbed by it.

     

     

     

    I agree with you. Piracy is a double-edged sword in my opinion because in some cases it can benefit developers. Word of mouth is a powerful thing, it can make or break you. Thats why I dont see it as an entirely negative thing.

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  • MukeMuke BredaPosts: 2,171Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ichmen

    im not whining there is no demo, im stating a fact that there is no demo. also trusting a reviewer's PoV on a game is stupid as fk. thats the same as trusting a MMO's hype meter... i play games for MY enjoyment not because angry joe or TB love the game or the studio or they were paid to say its the best thing EVER!!!!!111

     

    no whats hurting the market is not pirates. its the fact studios continue to push out garbageware for 59.99 while claiming its the best thing since sex while infact its as enjoyable as swimming in a septic tank.

    i also buy several games a month IF they are worth it and i can afford it.  sadly there is so much garbageware out there now i stick to indie titles like towns/gnomoria/ect 

    but funny thing... those small 1-5man indy teams... ACTUALLY put out a demo of their titles.. so oh look i didnt have to torrent them to try them out shocking i know

    yet EA/maxis cant make demos for The sims or simcity lolololololol

     

    You sir, are spot on and you just made my day with those choice of words.

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • YaevinduskYaevindusk Ul''dah, CAPosts: 1,537Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ichmen
    Originally posted by Yaevindusk

     

    I'd like to think this is more so a thread about how one might feel about the Indie developers that still have to deal with rampant pirating.  The game itself is $7.99 or so, and yet 93% of the game distribution was pirated.

     

    What people think of this, and not the various reasons one might have when it's something directed towards the bigger game companies with tripple A titles.

     

    Is this just something that independant developers just have to deal with?  Is it perhaps why we don't see as much innovation, or why we rarely see indie titles succeed if they're not backed by a big name (whether it be from publishing or by an influencial member of the media)?  Does pirating inhibit the creation and proliferation of new titles and new ideas?  These moral stances that many take, do most recognize that there are (potential) negatives as well as whatever (potential) positives they claim?  Perhaps if one so strongly believed in the positives of piracy, is it apparent (or even relative?) that their claims may be "adopted" by someone who just wants to use those grounds to get free games (and thus potentially harm developers such as this)?

     

    It was mentioned earlier that it is the practices of bigger companies that really screw the little ones; that we perhaps get our view points and tendancies regarding pirating due to the actions of these corporate entities.  Do we think that we just naturally judge indie games more harshly than we should?  Ignore their need for money (no matter how much a certain product costs) and just stick to what we know in potentially harming a new developer?  Or perhaps it is just that people who want "demos" of a game only really do so when it is a sizable sum, and when there is something new (or with little interest to the general gaming community as a whole) only the "bad" pirates come out with intents to save a couple dollars and never intending on buying the game?

     

    I have my own ideas regarding these questions, but as the original poster I'd like to keep those ideas to myself and simply ask question to keep the topic "on rails" rather than lose any sort of objectivity/neutrality by wording my opinions.

     

    idk about anyone else but as you are the OP id love to hear your own views on this subject, but as per your question yes the little guy gets crapped on by the bigger studios. its just how it is, much like a hotdog vender selling out of a small cart on the corner of a street gets screwed by the bigger chains. 

    indies are forever going to be screwed by guys like EA. that isnt to say the indies dont have their own faults as i have seen many wannabe indy teams trying to shovel really crappy buggy games out to people as gold released titles using the excuse they are small 1-10man teams so should be forgiven their 0.99-999.99 title is only 10% polished or finished... but for the rest tha really do try hard to make their game enjoyable (gnomoria for example) they will always get a black eye thanks to other failure devs. simply because they are trying to make it in the same field.  all they can do is take the faults the other studios do/make and try to not repeat those them selves while putting out a top title. 

     

    my self i judge studios based on their track record and what they are trying sell me, if its their first ever title and its being marketed out as the best thing ever (AAAAAAAAAA quality) yet a 2yr old smashing their hands on keyboard could program better... well ofcourse i wont be the nicest person.. though no one should as these people are trying to demand you give them money for garbage.  no one wants to pay money for crap so why should we be expected to??

    though id rather see indies succeed personally as most of the indie games iv played/bought have been pretty bloody good better then some of the top titles out there for a vastly cheaper cost. (doesnt mean i will buy them without trying them first, or want them to sell me garbage)

     

    This is an issue that requires delicate articulation so as to not offend anyone, while also trying to be "politically correct".  There are many factors, many sides and truth to be aware of even if you break it down to those who say piracy is valuable and those who are deadset against it.  Indeed, it wouldn't be a controversial issue at all if both sides couldn't produce evidence or provide adequate reasoning as to why they believe their thoughts to the more relevent than their counterparts.

     

    It's also something that we will have to look at from a historical and capitalistic point of view while also factoring in human nature and how human beings are supposed to be creatures of logic and reason.  We work hard for the money we make, and we want to get the best out of whatever we intend to purchase.  This spurs a nature within us to sometimes cut corners, cut costs and retrieve a sense of conservatism so that we are better prepared for something in the future that our money may be put to better use.  But in this situation (when only thinking of these indie development teams), their hard work is not tied to a salary or a large corporation, but our very nature and what we have learned from our experiences in the past.  We work hard, we expect a paycheck; if a developer of a two or three man team works hard, I'm sure he/she would also expect a paycheck.  Just as I'm sure they, too, will then enter a state of wanting to preserve such wealth.

     

    In truth, there is not bottom line, no "good versus evil" or ultimate fact that we can pretty much all agree on.  In general, we are taught from our childhood (in most cultures) that stealing is morally wrong.  This is also true when it comes to those with a religious upbringing.  But is taking something digitally that you don't pay for or that isn't given to you stealing?  There is no physical existence of said item.  One might then ask you that if you believe slavery (or taking one's hard work for your own benefit without compensation) is actually stealing.  Indeed, another may inquire if plagiarism, or stealing one's work and making it your own, is also similar to this in different ways.  We have to ask ourselves if these things -- although not 100% tied to what we're talking about -- are considered a type of theft before even evaluating the myriad of truths both sides echo.

     

    On the other side of the coin, one might ask if scamming an individual out of their money is stealing.  The cons many developers would push onto the consumer; the broken promises, the shabby product, the tactics of bait and switch (although illegal in some countries) which many are subject.  It hardens us, it makes us more protective over our hard earn wealth.  Why is it so hard for a developer not to offer some sort of demo?  What are they hiding from us?  Sometimes demos can't really produce what the game really is, sometimes it can.  For instance, many judge MMOs based on end game, and if you only allow playing the first zone or some such, the slow start would probably turn a lot of people off.  It will be great to test if your hardware can handle it, or if it's well made in terms of frame skipping, but we have also become so jaded as a whole that we judge things harshly.

     

    I don't know how many times I've heard "If you played an hour of this, you've basically played the whole game" or "this is just like every other game" when someone hasn't even played said game.  With the onset of internet and places such as reddit, one voice could cause thousands of people to not play a game.  One ample reason (no matter how noble) could have a thousand people (with less than noble intents) hiding behind that just to get something for free.  It's a series of passive retaliation we have as consumers with the developers.  We both do "what is necessary" to protect our interests.  Now, someone might say that it's up to the developer to make a demo enjoyable if the game itself is later on.  But this could also bring about many misunderstandings.  In addition, a small team may not have the resources to do such.  Heck, the new Thief Reboot took about 10 months (of the entire team) working on it just to make a public demo that likely won't be used in game.

     

    What we also have to ask is something many oft forget.  It is a question we have to ask ourselves.  Are we selfish?  We may partake in something from noble intent, or from being jaded due to the past.  But in this world nothing is free.  Someone is paying for what we take in some way.  And as we defend our aspirations, we pave way to create more people who would think such (many who are lying to themselves and just want a free game).  While we may eventually buy the game, how many do you think would simply delete the game if they decided not to play it?  Why wouldn't they finish the game?  We may have our morals and justify why we in particular do something.  It may be from personal experience, or just something we picked up from another's personal experience.  But it's something that affects the industry in ripples.  It's something that many carry with them to new developers who have not done anything wrong.  Many do not discriminate between game developers in this.  It becomes a sort of "give me a demo.  period." type of notion.

     

    I won't lie and say I'm neutral in this matter.  The fact is, while I'm neutral in terms of my understanding of both sides (a very basic understanding, mind you), I have never pirated a game in my life (that I recall).  If I cannot afford a game, I simply wait until I can afford it or until it goes on sale.  If the game is suspect and doesn't have a demo, I wait until there is one or until there are various reviews on it.  It was my past belief that, I am an adult and it is up to me to figure what is worth my money, and understand the product that I am to purchase before buying it.  My reasoning was similar to going to a theatre; if it is a part of a genre I do not like, it would likely be a waste of money.  If it's something new, I'd wait to see what my friends say about it.  But aside from commercials and video reviews, I could not see the quality of it, the acting nor if they happen to leave something on set or have poor development.  Even if I could watch the first five minutes, it wouldn't mean a thing.  Even if I could play the first hour of a game, it is by no indication of how it will play in further areas or anything else (for instance it could be unoptimized later).  Let's take a look at Age of Conan for instance; I'd say the first town and 20 hours of gameplay was an ample demostration of the game.  In the open beta we could play it.  We could see what it was and what it was like.  Except, it wasn't.  In truth (my own opinion of the truth), justifying pirating a game just because it doesn't have a demo is a fallacy (as extra attention could just be made in that demo, trivializing the whole affair, then what would be the excuse?).  There are those who still do it even if the game industry starts releasing such, and they will then say they want to play the entire game before shelling out the money (so they know 100% of the game is legit and they like the ending... of which we can see from ME3 is apparently a big deal breaker even if the rest of the game was decent).  But that would make it even less likely for the masses to pay for it (and again, I know many people are honest who do this).  There will also be a crowd that wants to go to the next step once something they asked for is given to them, and who would keep up the charade based on their then new set of morals on the new thing that is wrong since they don't want to be ripped off.  This will of course then be followed by the masses of people with similar thoughts (most truly believing in such), many possibly following the honorable path, but overall it will just be a lie to make them feel better or think themselves on the high ground (It will never end as something new will always be found as it is just part of human nature as brought up earlier).

     

    Though I need to stress that these were my thoughts, and to some extent still are.  I am not claiming one side is more right than the other, as I have different experiences.  There are so many things to consider that it would take hundreds of pages just to scratch the surface.  What I was slightly against was the comment "welcome to the real world" that was in this thread.  There is no final truth in this subject, unless you want to speak of human nature and the past (even then a psychologist wouldn't have all the facts as it's nearly impossible to stereotype so many people from many different cultures).  One could just as easily say (and this is harsh and not something I personally would say to someone or outright believe due to obvious differences) "developers and the government shouldn't have to hold your hand; you're an adult, look before you leap.  Parents need to take care of children, but we aren't children.  If someone wronged you, don't buy their next product, but also don't go against your morals in pirating their game because you -really- want to play it.  Don't whine and cry about a lolipop and expect that you will get it on any moral grounds.  Gaming is a luxury and not a right".  It goes back to if you believe slavery is theft.  If they choose not to include a demo, you're still playing their work for free and even if you don't finish it, that is always so.

     

    But how can we fix that, if the above has any semblance of truth?  Well, they don't make it easy.  Honestly, I think they should have some type of donation page for those with some morals to pay even a couple dollars if they played a small amount of their game without paying.  Many will give bad press because of that, though (you know, the whole one troll could ruin a thousand purchases internet thing).  Also, some may not like and outright disagree as all they want is a demo.  But in the context of the above, it isn't made easy to the fact most don't have something like this in place.

     

    Let's take a look at the Humble Indie Bundle.  There we have quite a few people paying above the average.  But then we see people buying it for one cent in bulk.  Then trying to turn around a profit for such in games, selling these bundles to people with no credit cards for in game currency and the like.  Human nature wanting more for less (or outright getting something for free) even if the money would go to charity or a developer that perhaps needs it.

     

    Let's take a further step back to the great collapse of console gaming decades ago.  Why did it crash?  Well, one of the main reasons was because release after release of absolute crap was thrown into the market, with no way to people to test the game prior to buying and not certification process to ensure at least some quality.  We now have the internet, people's opinions, video reviews and an extensive certification process (such as nintendo's golden seal).  Nintendo's seal came about simply because of this crash.  People started to outright refuse to buy these games that weren't even finished (some were, but the mindset was against all games).  Too many consoles were being made, too many games and developers being established, and cash grabs were had.  If you look up E.T. or Pac Man back in the day you will see complete and utter failures.  What the heck is this guy talking about?  Pac man was insanely popular in the arcade, but (I believe) the first(?) console version of it was pure crap.  They gave the guy a few weeks to make the game (not enough time to make a game in his defense), wanting to bank on it before the holidays.  They also gave him a contract that they will pay him something like one dollar for each game they made (not each game they sold, each one they printed).  They printed 12 million copies, but only a small fraction actually sold due to how completely buggy and bad the game was.  Then we have E.T. whereby it was so bad people got together to burn it in a bonfire and bury copies forever.

     

    This is very much what could happen if we allow crap games to enter the market ( thus my respect to those who don't take crap from big gaming companies so that we avoid things like this).  But now we're starting to punish anyone who produces games just because we're (let's face it) stingy consumers who have a bit of entitlement issues to admit to.  Let's see how many games we put down (as a group), even if it's just a few trolls here and there.  Many who never play a game and simply judge it.  Some who judge it just from an hour or two playing it.  Others who make a living out of judging.  If a bad game is made, there are reprocussions.  But we as consumers don't like to be played.  We don't like to feel like we've been ripped off.  Them having "reprocussions" isn't enough.  We want absolute assurance and we don't care whatever consequences come from it.  So long as we benefit from it, who cares ( and we do benefit from it as individuals if you save money by demoing it through piracy).

     

    But when was life ever about assurances?  When you think about it, we're just a collective group of bullies when it comes to independant developers, and an army of justice against corporate commander when it's called for.  When did the phrase "welcome to the real world" become "I want to know 100% before I gamble or pay for your labor?"  Is this only in reference to the digital "real world" or how people think the "real world" actually operates?  Now, I've been overly negative to the whole point of pirating for the past few paragraphs.  Though at the same time I believe that I've asked some pretty valid questions.

     

    In closing I would just like to add, that most of us are adults.  Why should we listen to other adults trying to judge us when it comes to this?  We know what we believe in, we have our experiences that (for us) lead to our own truths.  But sometimes we forget that along the line there is something and someone more than just "us".  We look out for ourselves and, at times, our loved ones when it comes to purchases.  But we shouldn't be (in my opinion) so vigorously and devoutly for or against piracy.  It is only then when we cross into being "blinded" or "closed minded" about things.  We see only positives (especially if there are only positives for ourselves) and rarely do we then recognize or even want to think about any potential implications or the situations that fall between those cracks and the "fine lines" we establish in the things we do (whether it's that we ignore the positives of piracy, or simply forget that for others there are lasting negatives that we may never know about... The whole "ignorance is bliss" is a proper phrase for both sides).

     

    That's just my two cents on a subject that I could go on for dozens of pages.  Perhaps I'll make a blog about it one day.  But ultimately I'm not going to say "you don't understand" to either side of the argument.  The truth is I don't understand.  How could I?  People have their reasons, and I wouldn't be able to call myself a mature individual if I just flat out say someone is wrong without listening to them and acknowledging that they have many different and valid points.

     

    Let's take a look at what the used game market may one day lead to:

     

    image

     

    Some say it's a consumer right, and they may be correct.  But it doesn't mean there won't be negative reprocussions to account for.  We may benefit from it, but others do not.  It will continue being a case of "an eye for an eye" when it comes to consumers and developers needing to do what is necessary for themselves.  We just have to learn how to do things in moderation and not take it to the extreme (in my opinion).  If not, then we'll be the ones ripping people off with those situations that "fall through the cracks" and it will be cycle of two bad guys just making a situation worse perpetually.

     

    In risk to make an already long post even more so, allow me to be the first to say I have entitlement issues.  Whether they're something I'm aware of or not, I know that I have them in some way.  I need to accept that I am a selfish consumer before I can be a productive and responsible one.  One with a real voice and who can have a great relationship with a developer of my choice.  The bridge needs to be repaired, and since they're the ones with millions on the line, the consumers need to start taking the first step to mending things and even constructively slapping a hand when something they did was wrong.  Let is think of the developers we admire now, and give chances to those who we may yet become great friends with in the future.  Let us break bread.

    When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,779Member Uncommon

    The anti-piracy measure of the original post was a stroke of genius.

    As far as piracy goes, while some people pirate a game and buy it later, I'm strongly skeptical that piracy makes people more likely to buy games.  If that were so, surely some game companies would have figured it out by now and released pirated versions of their own games to boost sales.  It's far more likely that whoever came up with that study either completely made it up or employed a bunch of statistical shenanigans.

    Some games are much harder to make a demo of than others.  How would you make a convincing demo of a typical Koei game that throws you into the fire straight away?  Take out 2/3 of the features for a demo and you take out the complexity that makes the game fun.  In order for a demo to succeed, it has to be able to convince people that the full game will be fun and also that the demo itself is not an acceptable substitute for the full game.

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