Was around before Wow and still going 10+ years.Never even a hint of cash shop.
Square Enix used to stay at home,they said it was Capcom that opened them up to N.American gaming.Thank god,otherwise they might have just turned out another clone of a clone.
Only MMORPG that i can think of NO MARKERS,NO HAND HOLDING and NO xp for running errands or quests.
Ya Tanaka was the sole brain child,he made his own decisions,brilliant man.We saw what happens when you let current gamers like Wow players into the fray[yes current staff are all Wow players].Tanaka allowed all those young lads a piece of designing FFXIV and it was NOT accepted at all.He took the blame,perhaps warranted,he should have never let those others make decisions.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Was around before Wow and still going 10+ years.Never even a hint of cash shop.
Square Enix used to stay at home,they said it was Capcom that opened them up to N.American gaming.Thank god,otherwise they might have just turned out another clone of a clone.
Only MMORPG that i can think of NO MARKERS,NO HAND HOLDING and NO xp for running errands or quests.
Ya Tanaka was the sole brain child,he made his own decisions,brilliant man.We saw what happens when you let current gamers like Wow players into the fray[yes current staff are all Wow players].Tanaka allowed all those young lads a piece of designing FFXIV and it was NOT accepted at all.He took the blame,perhaps warranted,he should have never let those others make decisions.
They also charge for expansion packs (which are essentially the same thing as content packs in cash shop games) and server transfers (which are found in many cash shops).
EQ, Ultima Online and Asherons Call, the three main MMOs that started the entire genre, did not have any microtransactions.
Ultima Online developed microtransactions when they gave promotional items tied to a box in stores and realized that existing players were buying copies, even multiple copies, of the box just for the promotion codes. I'm not convinced that even EA realized they had added microtransactions at first.
EQ, Ultima Online and Asherons Call, the three main MMOs that started the entire genre, did not have any microtransactions.
Ultima Online developed microtransactions when they gave promotional items tied to a box in stores and realized that existing players were buying copies, even multiple copies, of the box just for the promotion codes. I'm not convinced that even EA realized they had added microtransactions at first.
@Kobold. MMO's were around before those three. Garriot coined the term MMORPG but MMO's were around before and one of them was a f2p with a cash shop. Furcadia.
edit - those were the major titles though.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
What I've discovered in my thinking is that I cannot currently come up with an MMO on the market that has no microtransactions. Now I'm sure somebody will point to some obscure, niche MMO where you pay the subscription and that's that - except it isn't, really; because even when developers aren't facilitating microtransactions, players are finding ways to initiate their own microtransactions.
Istaria. No in-game shop, only some subscription plans (top on - 15$/month and you may have anything).Player trading does exist, as it is in all mmorpgs.
Originally posted by asmkm22 Wow doesn't have microtransactions. It has some extra services available, and there are some mounts and pets you can buy, but you'll never know from just playing the game. It's never advertised during play. In fact, there is no way to even access the "shop" from within the game.
While true that unless you know about them you can't tell they were bought.
How do you reconcile these two statements:
"Wow doesn't have microtransctions... there are some mounts and pets you can buy"
That is a microtransaction.
not too mention the cards for a chance of getting a mount, worse kind of mt IMO.
it's a microtransaction that is only available if you purposely seek it out, is never advertised, and has zero bearing on the gameplay. So I can reconcile the two statements just fine, since I don't see the world in black in white as you obviously do.
And the cards? that's an entirely different game, which happens to have a few in-game bonuses if you get lucky. You buy the cards for the card game.
Your basic argument seems to imply that you consider a company that sells t-shirts with their logos as a form of "microtransaction."
So you agree it is a microtransaction.
Why would say it is a microtransaction in one breath, and say it's not in another. Say whether it is a good or bad version of it, but by your own admission it is still a microtransaction.
Not in the context of this conversation, no. At least not anymore than a company selling a shirt or ball cap with the game logo on it.
But feel free to try and cling to an argument based entirely on semantics.
Originally posted by jalexbrown I've given a lot of thought to the topic of microtransactions, how much a segment of the MMO community hates them, and what we could (should?) do about them. What I've discovered in my thinking is that I cannot currently come up with an MMO on the market that has no microtransactions. Now I'm sure somebody will point to some obscure, niche MMO where you pay the subscription and that's that - except it isn't, really; because even when developers aren't facilitating microtransactions, players are finding ways to initiate their own microtransactions. Essentially the players become the cash shop. Diablo 2, for instance, had no officially sanctioned RMTs, and yet we all know there was definitely a large community of people selling items for real-world cash. So what I'm wondering is this: Why do the players that hate microtransactions find these MMOs and then end up creating a market of microtransactions?
There's a group of players out there against sanctioned and supported RMT/Microtransactions but would gladly use illegal means to obtain things in a game using real money.
My theory on that is some people want an unfair advantage not everybody has access to or put in simpler terms, something not everybody is willing to do because of the obvious risks involved. That group of people (I know some of those in person) hates the fact you can buy items in a cash shop but likes the idea they can backdoor themselves to "greatness" in a MMO.
I don't know if that has to do with hypocracy as much as it is, players wanting to cheat and stand out. Not completely out of line with those that spend an ungodly amount of hours farming for things just to stand out. just different methods of essentially the same mentality of wanting to be better than everyone else
What I've discovered in my thinking is that I cannot currently come up with an MMO on the market that has no microtransactions. Now I'm sure somebody will point to some obscure, niche MMO where you pay the subscription and that's that - except it isn't, really; because even when developers aren't facilitating microtransactions, players are finding ways to initiate their own microtransactions.
Istaria. No in-game shop, only some subscription plans (top on - 15$/month and you may have anything).Player trading does exist, as it is in all mmorpgs.
Now that is an interesting debate.
What is the difference between varied subscription plans. We'll use Istaria:
free access - human only, 10 global consignment, 1 concurrent log in, no plot or lair
basic - 9.95, 5 character slots, 50 global consignment slots, 1 concurrent login, no plot or lair
property holder access - 14.95 (gets cheaper buying multimonth), 7 character slot, 150 global consignment slots, 1 concurrent login, 1 plot or lair.
So if Swtor had a free access but made you pay for multiple character slots, more cosigning ability, and gave you access to a house (still need to buy and build in game though). Would there be any difference between this cs and istarias sub plan?
edit - I think swtor does do some of that doesn't it?
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
So you like throwing your money away for virtual trinkets that expire and forced to buy more? Havent you knoticed that the cash shops are starting to get even worse with their prices. Hell even mounts now cost just as much as an expansion. No thanks!
Sub fee or nothing from me, i will not keep paying outrageous prices for stuff that should be provided free and everyone have the same ability to earn, gain, or make said items.
Cash shops are the worst thing to hit the industry hidding behind the "free to play" BS.
Originally posted by asmkm22 Wow doesn't have microtransactions. It has some extra services available, and there are some mounts and pets you can buy, but you'll never know from just playing the game. It's never advertised during play. In fact, there is no way to even access the "shop" from within the game.
While true that unless you know about them you can't tell they were bought.
How do you reconcile these two statements:
"Wow doesn't have microtransctions... there are some mounts and pets you can buy"
That is a microtransaction.
not too mention the cards for a chance of getting a mount, worse kind of mt IMO.
it's a microtransaction that is only available if you purposely seek it out, is never advertised, and has zero bearing on the gameplay. So I can reconcile the two statements just fine, since I don't see the world in black in white as you obviously do.
And the cards? that's an entirely different game, which happens to have a few in-game bonuses if you get lucky. You buy the cards for the card game.
Your basic argument seems to imply that you consider a company that sells t-shirts with their logos as a form of "microtransaction."
So you agree it is a microtransaction.
Why would say it is a microtransaction in one breath, and say it's not in another. Say whether it is a good or bad version of it, but by your own admission it is still a microtransaction.
Not in the context of this conversation, no. At least not anymore than a company selling a shirt or ball cap with the game logo on it.
But feel free to try and cling to an argument based entirely on semantics.
You stated right there it is a micro-transaction. If you can't tell the difference between something bough with RL cash that is used in game and something bought with RL cash that is not used in game, than I can't help you.
Of course you are stating that it is a microtransaction and then arguing that it isn't so I doubt anyone could help you anyway.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by asmkm22 Wow doesn't have microtransactions. It has some extra services available, and there are some mounts and pets you can buy, but you'll never know from just playing the game. It's never advertised during play. In fact, there is no way to even access the "shop" from within the game.
While true that unless you know about them you can't tell they were bought.
How do you reconcile these two statements:
"Wow doesn't have microtransctions... there are some mounts and pets you can buy"
That is a microtransaction.
not too mention the cards for a chance of getting a mount, worse kind of mt IMO.
it's a microtransaction that is only available if you purposely seek it out, is never advertised, and has zero bearing on the gameplay. So I can reconcile the two statements just fine, since I don't see the world in black in white as you obviously do.
And the cards? that's an entirely different game, which happens to have a few in-game bonuses if you get lucky. You buy the cards for the card game.
Your basic argument seems to imply that you consider a company that sells t-shirts with their logos as a form of "microtransaction."
So you agree it is a microtransaction.
Why would say it is a microtransaction in one breath, and say it's not in another. Say whether it is a good or bad version of it, but by your own admission it is still a microtransaction.
Not in the context of this conversation, no. At least not anymore than a company selling a shirt or ball cap with the game logo on it.
But feel free to try and cling to an argument based entirely on semantics.
You stated right there it is a micro-transaction. If you can't tell the difference between something bough with RL cash that is used in game and something bought with RL cash that is not used in game, than I can't help you.
Of course you are stating that it is a microtransaction and then arguing that it isn't so I doubt anyone could help you anyway.
I was wondering when you'd start with the personal attacks, since actual facts seem to mean nothing to you. Context is something you are ignoring here.
So you like throwing your money away for virtual trinkets that expire and forced to buy more? Havent you knoticed that the cash shops are starting to get even worse with their prices. Hell even mounts now cost just as much as an expansion. No thanks!
Sub fee or nothing from me, i will not keep paying outrageous prices for stuff that should be provided free and everyone have the same ability to earn, gain, or make said items.
Cash shops are the worst thing to hit the industry hidding behind the "free to play" BS.
The point I wanted to make is that the two are very far from being mutually exclusive - even if the pro-sub, nay-RMT crowd insists otherwise. Subscriptions aren't keeping companies from implementing RMTs into their games, so that means if there is indeed a RMT problem then subscriptions aren't part of the solution.
Originally posted by asmkm22 Wow doesn't have microtransactions. It has some extra services available, and there are some mounts and pets you can buy, but you'll never know from just playing the game. It's never advertised during play. In fact, there is no way to even access the "shop" from within the game.
While true that unless you know about them you can't tell they were bought.
How do you reconcile these two statements:
"Wow doesn't have microtransctions... there are some mounts and pets you can buy"
That is a microtransaction.
not too mention the cards for a chance of getting a mount, worse kind of mt IMO.
it's a microtransaction that is only available if you purposely seek it out, is never advertised, and has zero bearing on the gameplay. So I can reconcile the two statements just fine, since I don't see the world in black in white as you obviously do.
And the cards? that's an entirely different game, which happens to have a few in-game bonuses if you get lucky. You buy the cards for the card game.
Your basic argument seems to imply that you consider a company that sells t-shirts with their logos as a form of "microtransaction."
So you agree it is a microtransaction.
Why would say it is a microtransaction in one breath, and say it's not in another. Say whether it is a good or bad version of it, but by your own admission it is still a microtransaction.
Not in the context of this conversation, no. At least not anymore than a company selling a shirt or ball cap with the game logo on it.
But feel free to try and cling to an argument based entirely on semantics.
You stated right there it is a micro-transaction. If you can't tell the difference between something bough with RL cash that is used in game and something bought with RL cash that is not used in game, than I can't help you.
Of course you are stating that it is a microtransaction and then arguing that it isn't so I doubt anyone could help you anyway.
I was wondering when you'd start with the personal attacks, since actual facts seem to mean nothing to you. Context is something you are ignoring here.
In the context that I was using in the original post, it seems glaringly obvious that a microtransaction is any transaction associated with an MMO in which real money is exchanged for digital items or content.
Originally posted by asmkm22 Wow doesn't have microtransactions. It has some extra services available, and there are some mounts and pets you can buy, but you'll never know from just playing the game. It's never advertised during play. In fact, there is no way to even access the "shop" from within the game.
While true that unless you know about them you can't tell they were bought.
How do you reconcile these two statements:
"Wow doesn't have microtransctions... there are some mounts and pets you can buy"
That is a microtransaction.
not too mention the cards for a chance of getting a mount, worse kind of mt IMO.
it's a microtransaction that is only available if you purposely seek it out, is never advertised, and has zero bearing on the gameplay. So I can reconcile the two statements just fine, since I don't see the world in black in white as you obviously do.
And the cards? that's an entirely different game, which happens to have a few in-game bonuses if you get lucky. You buy the cards for the card game.
Your basic argument seems to imply that you consider a company that sells t-shirts with their logos as a form of "microtransaction."
So you agree it is a microtransaction.
Why would say it is a microtransaction in one breath, and say it's not in another. Say whether it is a good or bad version of it, but by your own admission it is still a microtransaction.
Not in the context of this conversation, no. At least not anymore than a company selling a shirt or ball cap with the game logo on it.
But feel free to try and cling to an argument based entirely on semantics.
You stated right there it is a micro-transaction. If you can't tell the difference between something bough with RL cash that is used in game and something bought with RL cash that is not used in game, than I can't help you.
Of course you are stating that it is a microtransaction and then arguing that it isn't so I doubt anyone could help you anyway.
I was wondering when you'd start with the personal attacks, since actual facts seem to mean nothing to you. Context is something you are ignoring here.
edit - nm not worth it anymore.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
So you like throwing your money away for virtual trinkets that expire and forced to buy more? Havent you knoticed that the cash shops are starting to get even worse with their prices. Hell even mounts now cost just as much as an expansion. No thanks!
Sub fee or nothing from me, i will not keep paying outrageous prices for stuff that should be provided free and everyone have the same ability to earn, gain, or make said items.
Cash shops are the worst thing to hit the industry hidding behind the "free to play" BS.
The point I wanted to make is that the two are very far from being mutually exclusive - even if the pro-sub, nay-RMT crowd insists otherwise. Subscriptions aren't keeping companies from implementing RMTs into their games, so that means if there is indeed a RMT problem then subscriptions aren't part of the solution.
10 million screaming wow fanatics can disagree. 10 milion at 15$ a pop is a huge amount of $$$. They added cash transaction for only one reason...........greed.
If other game companies would get off WOW's coat tails and make some good mmorpg's and stop cattering to the konsole kiddies then there wouldnt be an issue.
Even 400k subs will bring in more than your average cash shop. But see cahs hsops were not to bad when they first popped up. 5$ here and there... no biggie. But now mounts, bags, skills, and even basic things like healing potions cost a ton now and even in some cases are only rented to you for awhile. Pure greed.
Originally posted by asmkm22 Wow doesn't have microtransactions. It has some extra services available, and there are some mounts and pets you can buy, but you'll never know from just playing the game. It's never advertised during play. In fact, there is no way to even access the "shop" from within the game.
While true that unless you know about them you can't tell they were bought.
How do you reconcile these two statements:
"Wow doesn't have microtransctions... there are some mounts and pets you can buy"
That is a microtransaction.
not too mention the cards for a chance of getting a mount, worse kind of mt IMO.
it's a microtransaction that is only available if you purposely seek it out, is never advertised, and has zero bearing on the gameplay. So I can reconcile the two statements just fine, since I don't see the world in black in white as you obviously do.
And the cards? that's an entirely different game, which happens to have a few in-game bonuses if you get lucky. You buy the cards for the card game.
Your basic argument seems to imply that you consider a company that sells t-shirts with their logos as a form of "microtransaction."
So you agree it is a microtransaction.
Why would say it is a microtransaction in one breath, and say it's not in another. Say whether it is a good or bad version of it, but by your own admission it is still a microtransaction.
Not in the context of this conversation, no. At least not anymore than a company selling a shirt or ball cap with the game logo on it.
But feel free to try and cling to an argument based entirely on semantics.
You stated right there it is a micro-transaction. If you can't tell the difference between something bough with RL cash that is used in game and something bought with RL cash that is not used in game, than I can't help you.
Of course you are stating that it is a microtransaction and then arguing that it isn't so I doubt anyone could help you anyway.
I was wondering when you'd start with the personal attacks, since actual facts seem to mean nothing to you. Context is something you are ignoring here.
In the context that I was using in the original post, it seems glaringly obvious that a microtransaction is any transaction associated with an MMO in which real money is exchanged for digital items or content.
Nowhere in your original post do you define microtransactions as such. In fact, the examples and implications you give are obviously framed around microtransactions as they are used for a primary, or secondary source of income within a game. The mircrotransactions I mentioned with WoW do not fit that in the slightest. They are also not exactly lumped into your generalization of players hating games with microtransactions (I've never seen anyone really complain about WoW in that light), and they certainly don't seem to be well-advertised by Blizzard.
As such, I states that WoW would qualify for a game that does not have microtransactions, in the context of your argument, even though it does *technically* have a few things you can buy with real money.
I have a feeling you aren't going to let this drop, however. You seem like one of those guys who can't admit when they are wrong, as well as a desire to get the last word in. So reply to this, and you have it, because this conversation is no longer interesting.
Originally posted by asmkm22 Wow doesn't have microtransactions. It has some extra services available, and there are some mounts and pets you can buy, but you'll never know from just playing the game. It's never advertised during play. In fact, there is no way to even access the "shop" from within the game.
While true that unless you know about them you can't tell they were bought.
How do you reconcile these two statements:
"Wow doesn't have microtransctions... there are some mounts and pets you can buy"
That is a microtransaction.
not too mention the cards for a chance of getting a mount, worse kind of mt IMO.
it's a microtransaction that is only available if you purposely seek it out, is never advertised, and has zero bearing on the gameplay. So I can reconcile the two statements just fine, since I don't see the world in black in white as you obviously do.
And the cards? that's an entirely different game, which happens to have a few in-game bonuses if you get lucky. You buy the cards for the card game.
Your basic argument seems to imply that you consider a company that sells t-shirts with their logos as a form of "microtransaction."
So you agree it is a microtransaction.
Why would say it is a microtransaction in one breath, and say it's not in another. Say whether it is a good or bad version of it, but by your own admission it is still a microtransaction.
Not in the context of this conversation, no. At least not anymore than a company selling a shirt or ball cap with the game logo on it.
But feel free to try and cling to an argument based entirely on semantics.
You stated right there it is a micro-transaction. If you can't tell the difference between something bough with RL cash that is used in game and something bought with RL cash that is not used in game, than I can't help you.
Of course you are stating that it is a microtransaction and then arguing that it isn't so I doubt anyone could help you anyway.
I was wondering when you'd start with the personal attacks, since actual facts seem to mean nothing to you. Context is something you are ignoring here.
In the context that I was using in the original post, it seems glaringly obvious that a microtransaction is any transaction associated with an MMO in which real money is exchanged for digital items or content.
Nowhere in your original post do you define microtransactions as such. In fact, the examples and implications you give are obviously framed around microtransactions as they are used for a primary, or secondary source of income within a game. The mircrotransactions I mentioned with WoW do not fit that in the slightest. They are also not exactly lumped into your generalization of players hating games with microtransactions (I've never seen anyone really complain about WoW in that light), and they certainly don't seem to be well-advertised by Blizzard.
As such, I states that WoW would qualify for a game that does not have microtransactions, in the context of your argument, even though it does *technically* have a few things you can buy with real money.
I have a feeling you aren't going to let this drop, however. You seem like one of those guys who can't admit when they are wrong, as well as a desire to get the last word in. So reply to this, and you have it, because this conversation is no longer interesting.
Thats cause your wrong. They are microtransactions. They do use them for income. They are bought with RL money. They are in game.
microtransactions as they are used for a primary, or secondary source of income within a game. They are a 2ndary source of income
They are also not exactly lumped into your generalization of players hating games with microtransactions (I've never seen anyone really complain about WoW in that light), When blizzard brought in the cards with a chance of a mount, forums screamed. When blizzard brought in the celestial steed forums screamed. Now they are used to it.
and they certainly don't seem to be well-advertised by Blizzard. about 4 million in 24 hours shows there was enough advertisement
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
So you like throwing your money away for virtual trinkets that expire and forced to buy more? Havent you knoticed that the cash shops are starting to get even worse with their prices. Hell even mounts now cost just as much as an expansion. No thanks!
Sub fee or nothing from me, i will not keep paying outrageous prices for stuff that should be provided free and everyone have the same ability to earn, gain, or make said items.
Cash shops are the worst thing to hit the industry hidding behind the "free to play" BS.
The point I wanted to make is that the two are very far from being mutually exclusive - even if the pro-sub, nay-RMT crowd insists otherwise. Subscriptions aren't keeping companies from implementing RMTs into their games, so that means if there is indeed a RMT problem then subscriptions aren't part of the solution.
10 million screaming wow fanatics can disagree. 10 milion at 15$ a pop is a huge amount of $$$. They added cash transaction for only one reason...........greed.
If other game companies would get off WOW's coat tails and make some good mmorpg's and stop cattering to the konsole kiddies then there wouldnt be an issue.
Even 400k subs will bring in more than your average cash shop. But see cahs hsops were not to bad when they first popped up. 5$ here and there... no biggie. But now mounts, bags, skills, and even basic things like healing potions cost a ton now and even in some cases are only rented to you for awhile. Pure greed.
Compared to 30-50 cents a day, its a no brainer.
Do you understand a business's goal in a free market economy? It's to maximize profits - maximize being the key word here. Why should Blizzard have to be content with $15 a month if they can charge more for anything and get people to pay for it? Companies have anways been "greedy" in the literal sense; that's not really anything nearly as new as you're making it out to be. If any sort of empiral evidence had suggested that there was money to be made on microtransactions going back as far as Ultima Online's launch, I can assure you that microtransactions would be as old as MMOs are. Or do you honestly believe there was ever a point in time where someone in a publishing company said, "We could make more money, but we're not going to try."?
Nowhere in your original post do you define microtransactions as such. In fact, the examples and implications you give are obviously framed around microtransactions as they are used for a primary, or secondary source of income within a game. The mircrotransactions I mentioned with WoW do not fit that in the slightest. They are also not exactly lumped into your generalization of players hating games with microtransactions (I've never seen anyone really complain about WoW in that light), and they certainly don't seem to be well-advertised by Blizzard.
As such, I states that WoW would qualify for a game that does not have microtransactions, in the context of your argument, even though it does *technically* have a few things you can buy with real money.
I have a feeling you aren't going to let this drop, however. You seem like one of those guys who can't admit when they are wrong, as well as a desire to get the last word in. So reply to this, and you have it, because this conversation is no longer interesting.
Can you quote where in my original post I said anything that definitely suggests a logical consistency with the idea that what World of Warcraft has is not microtransactions?
Electronic Arts had a presentation about Battlefield Heroes a couple of years ago where they checked metrics and found that people who complained the most on the forums about being able to buy guns were the same people who were paying exponentially more than anyone else for those same guns
I assume it is this presentation you mean: Paying To Win
And you got it wrong. What they say is that the anti MT people are a vocal minority, that can be ignored. Nowhere do they claim that the same people actually pay.
In short their findings were this: A vocal minority is aganst p2w, as silent majority will happily p2w.
Electronic Arts had a presentation about Battlefield Heroes a couple of years ago where they checked metrics and found that people who complained the most on the forums about being able to buy guns were the same people who were paying exponentially more than anyone else for those same guns.
EA also said they'd NEVER make a game without microtransactions again.
My POV: As long as there isn't P2W with perma stat increases or items you can't earn in game except for cosmetics and maybe mounts or something...let the rich people blow all their dough and fund the game.
Though a sub based game is best, as it's a level playing field for everyone. Everyone pays the same and has access to the same things. There's no excuses when you don't have something (yeah right..lololol) and there's no demonizing people that do have it when you know it was earned.
There are a few out there with no micro transactions and they are usually the better MMORPGs..
The bottom will fall out of the f2p market soon and publishers will soon realise the old sub method was a lot better for steady income. The one thing they need to realise is that they cant compete with wow and they need to stop trying to copy wow.. Once they realise that and actually make a decent game they will be able to make money from subs again..
I am not saying f2p and microtransactions will go away.. sadly they are here to stay but the quality of those games is jsut not very good..
So you like throwing your money away for virtual trinkets that expire and forced to buy more? Havent you knoticed that the cash shops are starting to get even worse with their prices. Hell even mounts now cost just as much as an expansion. No thanks!
Sub fee or nothing from me, i will not keep paying outrageous prices for stuff that should be provided free and everyone have the same ability to earn, gain, or make said items.
Cash shops are the worst thing to hit the industry hidding behind the "free to play" BS.
The point I wanted to make is that the two are very far from being mutually exclusive - even if the pro-sub, nay-RMT crowd insists otherwise. Subscriptions aren't keeping companies from implementing RMTs into their games, so that means if there is indeed a RMT problem then subscriptions aren't part of the solution.
10 million screaming wow fanatics can disagree. 10 milion at 15$ a pop is a huge amount of $$$. They added cash transaction for only one reason...........greed.
If other game companies would get off WOW's coat tails and make some good mmorpg's and stop cattering to the konsole kiddies then there wouldnt be an issue.
Even 400k subs will bring in more than your average cash shop. But see cahs hsops were not to bad when they first popped up. 5$ here and there... no biggie. But now mounts, bags, skills, and even basic things like healing potions cost a ton now and even in some cases are only rented to you for awhile. Pure greed.
Compared to 30-50 cents a day, its a no brainer.
Do you understand a business's goal in a free market economy? It's to maximize profits - maximize being the key word here. Why should Blizzard have to be content with $15 a month if they can charge more for anything and get people to pay for it? Companies have anways been "greedy" in the literal sense; that's not really anything nearly as new as you're making it out to be. If any sort of empiral evidence had suggested that there was money to be made on microtransactions going back as far as Ultima Online's launch, I can assure you that microtransactions would be as old as MMOs are. Or do you honestly believe there was ever a point in time where someone in a publishing company said, "We could make more money, but we're not going to try."?
Greed is what drives every human, sure. But to have people come on here and state that f2p and transactions are a better coarse because its cheaper is just a down right fib. That is what my points are against.
But to be honest, if they wanted more money they could have raised the monthly fee. The standard 14.99/month has never been touched in a decade. The lesser of two evils is not micro-transactions. Because microtransactions are by far not the cheapest route.
12.99 per month is what i pay for a mmo (12 months at a discount) -40 cents per day 120-160 a year/
I get unlimted clothing, armor, wepaons, loot, speeders, mounts, make my own stuff and sell, always have everything i need for storage, housing, and everything else.
You pay 0-60$ for the game
15-40$ for a single mount
10-30$ for one extra bag of storage * 3-5 slots (30-150$)
~~right here you already passes what i paid~~
Armor and weapon upgrades (which fail 50% of the time)
Class and skill upgrades
Pets
Housing decore
Costumes (really?)
healing potions
booster potions
name and sex changes
guild registration and/or name changes
dyes to color your armor
extra content
extra dungeons and maps
paid tickets to get into events
paid tickets to get into pvp (which game did that, i forget was pretty sad)
Mystery boxes........ .0001% chance to win that elite magic item .......after 9999 boxes you still ahvent won anything
I know im missing a few dozen more things............................
Really is your game that "free" with micro-transactions? Even buying one or 2 here and there in the long run, i pay less, much much less.
And for 40 cents a day, about how much it costs me to start my car up in the morning, i enjoy the entire game, all of its content, and never have to worry about when i need to buy the next "must have" item that everyone else has. And have you noticed how f2p games with cash shops get updated more often....... but 95% of the time its dealing with the cash shop.
Sub game are more superior in concept, just to bad companies arent making good mmorpg's any longer.
Comments
FFXI
Was around before Wow and still going 10+ years.Never even a hint of cash shop.
Square Enix used to stay at home,they said it was Capcom that opened them up to N.American gaming.Thank god,otherwise they might have just turned out another clone of a clone.
Only MMORPG that i can think of NO MARKERS,NO HAND HOLDING and NO xp for running errands or quests.
Ya Tanaka was the sole brain child,he made his own decisions,brilliant man.We saw what happens when you let current gamers like Wow players into the fray[yes current staff are all Wow players].Tanaka allowed all those young lads a piece of designing FFXIV and it was NOT accepted at all.He took the blame,perhaps warranted,he should have never let those others make decisions.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
They also charge for expansion packs (which are essentially the same thing as content packs in cash shop games) and server transfers (which are found in many cash shops).
Ultima Online developed microtransactions when they gave promotional items tied to a box in stores and realized that existing players were buying copies, even multiple copies, of the box just for the promotion codes. I'm not convinced that even EA realized they had added microtransactions at first.
@Kobold. MMO's were around before those three. Garriot coined the term MMORPG but MMO's were around before and one of them was a f2p with a cash shop. Furcadia.
edit - those were the major titles though.
What I've discovered in my thinking is that I cannot currently come up with an MMO on the market that has no microtransactions. Now I'm sure somebody will point to some obscure, niche MMO where you pay the subscription and that's that - except it isn't, really; because even when developers aren't facilitating microtransactions, players are finding ways to initiate their own microtransactions.
Istaria. No in-game shop, only some subscription plans (top on - 15$/month and you may have anything).Player trading does exist, as it is in all mmorpgs.
http://www.mmoblogg.wordpress.com
Not in the context of this conversation, no. At least not anymore than a company selling a shirt or ball cap with the game logo on it.
But feel free to try and cling to an argument based entirely on semantics.
You make me like charity
There's a group of players out there against sanctioned and supported RMT/Microtransactions but would gladly use illegal means to obtain things in a game using real money.
My theory on that is some people want an unfair advantage not everybody has access to or put in simpler terms, something not everybody is willing to do because of the obvious risks involved. That group of people (I know some of those in person) hates the fact you can buy items in a cash shop but likes the idea they can backdoor themselves to "greatness" in a MMO.
I don't know if that has to do with hypocracy as much as it is, players wanting to cheat and stand out. Not completely out of line with those that spend an ungodly amount of hours farming for things just to stand out. just different methods of essentially the same mentality of wanting to be better than everyone else
Now that is an interesting debate.
What is the difference between varied subscription plans. We'll use Istaria:
free access - human only, 10 global consignment, 1 concurrent log in, no plot or lair
basic - 9.95, 5 character slots, 50 global consignment slots, 1 concurrent login, no plot or lair
property holder access - 14.95 (gets cheaper buying multimonth), 7 character slot, 150 global consignment slots, 1 concurrent login, 1 plot or lair.
So if Swtor had a free access but made you pay for multiple character slots, more cosigning ability, and gave you access to a house (still need to buy and build in game though). Would there be any difference between this cs and istarias sub plan?
edit - I think swtor does do some of that doesn't it?
So you like throwing your money away for virtual trinkets that expire and forced to buy more? Havent you knoticed that the cash shops are starting to get even worse with their prices. Hell even mounts now cost just as much as an expansion. No thanks!
Sub fee or nothing from me, i will not keep paying outrageous prices for stuff that should be provided free and everyone have the same ability to earn, gain, or make said items.
Cash shops are the worst thing to hit the industry hidding behind the "free to play" BS.
You stated right there it is a micro-transaction. If you can't tell the difference between something bough with RL cash that is used in game and something bought with RL cash that is not used in game, than I can't help you.
Of course you are stating that it is a microtransaction and then arguing that it isn't so I doubt anyone could help you anyway.
I was wondering when you'd start with the personal attacks, since actual facts seem to mean nothing to you. Context is something you are ignoring here.
You make me like charity
The point I wanted to make is that the two are very far from being mutually exclusive - even if the pro-sub, nay-RMT crowd insists otherwise. Subscriptions aren't keeping companies from implementing RMTs into their games, so that means if there is indeed a RMT problem then subscriptions aren't part of the solution.
In the context that I was using in the original post, it seems glaringly obvious that a microtransaction is any transaction associated with an MMO in which real money is exchanged for digital items or content.
edit - nm not worth it anymore.
10 million screaming wow fanatics can disagree. 10 milion at 15$ a pop is a huge amount of $$$. They added cash transaction for only one reason...........greed.
If other game companies would get off WOW's coat tails and make some good mmorpg's and stop cattering to the konsole kiddies then there wouldnt be an issue.
Even 400k subs will bring in more than your average cash shop. But see cahs hsops were not to bad when they first popped up. 5$ here and there... no biggie. But now mounts, bags, skills, and even basic things like healing potions cost a ton now and even in some cases are only rented to you for awhile. Pure greed.
Compared to 30-50 cents a day, its a no brainer.
Nowhere in your original post do you define microtransactions as such. In fact, the examples and implications you give are obviously framed around microtransactions as they are used for a primary, or secondary source of income within a game. The mircrotransactions I mentioned with WoW do not fit that in the slightest. They are also not exactly lumped into your generalization of players hating games with microtransactions (I've never seen anyone really complain about WoW in that light), and they certainly don't seem to be well-advertised by Blizzard.
As such, I states that WoW would qualify for a game that does not have microtransactions, in the context of your argument, even though it does *technically* have a few things you can buy with real money.
I have a feeling you aren't going to let this drop, however. You seem like one of those guys who can't admit when they are wrong, as well as a desire to get the last word in. So reply to this, and you have it, because this conversation is no longer interesting.
You make me like charity
Thats cause your wrong. They are microtransactions. They do use them for income. They are bought with RL money. They are in game.
microtransactions as they are used for a primary, or secondary source of income within a game. They are a 2ndary source of income
They are also not exactly lumped into your generalization of players hating games with microtransactions (I've never seen anyone really complain about WoW in that light), When blizzard brought in the cards with a chance of a mount, forums screamed. When blizzard brought in the celestial steed forums screamed. Now they are used to it.
and they certainly don't seem to be well-advertised by Blizzard. about 4 million in 24 hours shows there was enough advertisement
Do you understand a business's goal in a free market economy? It's to maximize profits - maximize being the key word here. Why should Blizzard have to be content with $15 a month if they can charge more for anything and get people to pay for it? Companies have anways been "greedy" in the literal sense; that's not really anything nearly as new as you're making it out to be. If any sort of empiral evidence had suggested that there was money to be made on microtransactions going back as far as Ultima Online's launch, I can assure you that microtransactions would be as old as MMOs are. Or do you honestly believe there was ever a point in time where someone in a publishing company said, "We could make more money, but we're not going to try."?
Can you quote where in my original post I said anything that definitely suggests a logical consistency with the idea that what World of Warcraft has is not microtransactions?
I assume it is this presentation you mean: Paying To Win
And you got it wrong. What they say is that the anti MT people are a vocal minority, that can be ignored. Nowhere do they claim that the same people actually pay.
In short their findings were this: A vocal minority is aganst p2w, as silent majority will happily p2w.
EA also said they'd NEVER make a game without microtransactions again.
http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/
My POV: As long as there isn't P2W with perma stat increases or items you can't earn in game except for cosmetics and maybe mounts or something...let the rich people blow all their dough and fund the game.
Though a sub based game is best, as it's a level playing field for everyone. Everyone pays the same and has access to the same things. There's no excuses when you don't have something (yeah right..lololol) and there's no demonizing people that do have it when you know it was earned.
http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/
There are a few out there with no micro transactions and they are usually the better MMORPGs..
The bottom will fall out of the f2p market soon and publishers will soon realise the old sub method was a lot better for steady income. The one thing they need to realise is that they cant compete with wow and they need to stop trying to copy wow.. Once they realise that and actually make a decent game they will be able to make money from subs again..
I am not saying f2p and microtransactions will go away.. sadly they are here to stay but the quality of those games is jsut not very good..
http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/
Greed is what drives every human, sure. But to have people come on here and state that f2p and transactions are a better coarse because its cheaper is just a down right fib. That is what my points are against.
But to be honest, if they wanted more money they could have raised the monthly fee. The standard 14.99/month has never been touched in a decade. The lesser of two evils is not micro-transactions. Because microtransactions are by far not the cheapest route.
12.99 per month is what i pay for a mmo (12 months at a discount) -40 cents per day 120-160 a year/
I get unlimted clothing, armor, wepaons, loot, speeders, mounts, make my own stuff and sell, always have everything i need for storage, housing, and everything else.
You pay 0-60$ for the game
15-40$ for a single mount
10-30$ for one extra bag of storage * 3-5 slots (30-150$)
~~right here you already passes what i paid~~
Armor and weapon upgrades (which fail 50% of the time)
Class and skill upgrades
Pets
Housing decore
Costumes (really?)
healing potions
booster potions
name and sex changes
guild registration and/or name changes
dyes to color your armor
extra content
extra dungeons and maps
paid tickets to get into events
paid tickets to get into pvp (which game did that, i forget was pretty sad)
Mystery boxes........ .0001% chance to win that elite magic item .......after 9999 boxes you still ahvent won anything
I know im missing a few dozen more things............................
Really is your game that "free" with micro-transactions? Even buying one or 2 here and there in the long run, i pay less, much much less.
And for 40 cents a day, about how much it costs me to start my car up in the morning, i enjoy the entire game, all of its content, and never have to worry about when i need to buy the next "must have" item that everyone else has. And have you noticed how f2p games with cash shops get updated more often....... but 95% of the time its dealing with the cash shop.
Sub game are more superior in concept, just to bad companies arent making good mmorpg's any longer.