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Class advancement and diversity

xDracxDrac HamburgPosts: 183Member

In most MMOs today, you tend to have your 4 to 6 standard classes like

Berserker (meele dmg dealer with a two-handed weapon)

Guardian (sword and shield, your typical tank)

Mage (dps using the elements)

Healer (your typical healer)

Archer (ranged dps)

 

Yeah I'd say those are the most common. Aren't you tired of seeing the same old classes over and over? Moreover, doesn't it suck that you can pick your final class at the very beginning of the game already? What I'm talking about are Class Changes. Don't you miss them? It gives you something to look forward to and lets your character advance, it adds in diversity and makes your character rather unique. Imo, Lineage II did a great job with class advancement and diversity. There were 34 different classes, all rather unique. You would pick your base class type at character creation (ie. mage or fighter) and as you leveld up, you would have to complete class change quests at specific levels to advance further (1st Class Change: Level 20 / 2nd Class Change: Level 40 / 3rd Class Change: Level 76 [...]). Also, in the earlier chronicles you would be required to work for your skills. After hitting level 40 and reaching your second class advancement, you had to get your skill spellbooks by hunting monsters and hoping for them to drop your class specific spellbook. Of course, it was hard getting your skills together, but also fun and it added something of value very early on in the game.

 

So my question is. Do you feel like class advancement and class diversity are lacking nowadays? Or do you feel that a few classes are fine and don't mind being like everyone else?

Lineage 3 - www.lineage3-online.com
Web & Graphic Design - www.xdrac.com

Comments

  • geelgeel GroningenPosts: 90Member

    Very much agree. But I feel like there are more ways to improve the class systems nowadays.

    Also I think class respecs kinda ruin the  customization somewhat. 

  • xDracxDrac HamburgPosts: 183Member
    Originally posted by geel

    Very much agree. But I feel like there are more ways to improve the class systems nowadays.

    Also I think class respecs kinda ruin the  customization somewhat. 

    I agree with you. Imo, there should be no class re-specs at all. Choosing your skills and class should be final. So you have to put great thought into your choices and stick with them until the end. Want to do something differently? Make a new character. Sure, that might sound harsh. But I believe it is better this way.

    Lineage 3 - www.lineage3-online.com
    Web & Graphic Design - www.xdrac.com

  • geelgeel GroningenPosts: 90Member

    Yes and moreover. I feel like the respec thing really hurts character progression. Because respecs takes away the thought (that you mention) and you can just put the points in some place and care about it later. Also the system of character progression suffers because in order to allow for respecs you would need some kind of skill tree. This sucks ass. Skill trees don't really allow for any progression at all. You start going into a tree, and what other options do you have but to stick with it? Yes you can respec, but you pick a different tree and just go with that. This whole system is incredibly flawed. 

    Look at GW2, an incredible game. But imo the class system is so simple and lackluster. Even GW1 that just had a bunch of skills for character progression and nothing else (not even rly important gear) iirc felt WAY more customizable and just felt better. Perhaps this is an issue of personal taste. But I think the majority would agree?

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    Assuming the budget for making the game is constant, what existing content are you willing to sacrifice in order to have developer time to design/animate/tweak extra classes?

  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk LiverpoolPosts: 976Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by xDrac
    Originally posted by geel

    Very much agree. But I feel like there are more ways to improve the class systems nowadays.

    Also I think class respecs kinda ruin the  customization somewhat. 

    I agree with you. Imo, there should be no class re-specs at all. Choosing your skills and class should be final. So you have to put great thought into your choices and stick with them until the end. Want to do something differently? Make a new character. Sure, that might sound harsh. But I believe it is better this way.

    The only thing that's achieved doing this is alienating players. Make a simple mis-click and you want people to re-roll? What if the play style isn't quite right for you and you should have specced a different tree but you already got to mid level? Re-roll?

    At which point a lot of people would just give up and go find something else to play.

    Having no ability to repsec at all just hurts the game. Rather you should limit the ability to respec. Make it so that a respec is an "oh shit" option and not something you can do any time you want to.

    I remember in DAoC you got a free respec at 40, then again at cap. Something like that is much better than no respec at all imho.

  • xDracxDrac HamburgPosts: 183Member
    Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
    Originally posted by xDrac
    Originally posted by geel

    Very much agree. But I feel like there are more ways to improve the class systems nowadays.

    Also I think class respecs kinda ruin the  customization somewhat. 

    I agree with you. Imo, there should be no class re-specs at all. Choosing your skills and class should be final. So you have to put great thought into your choices and stick with them until the end. Want to do something differently? Make a new character. Sure, that might sound harsh. But I believe it is better this way.

    The only thing that's achieved doing this is alienating players. Make a simple mis-click and you want people to re-roll? What if the play style isn't quite right for you and you should have specced a different tree but you already got to mid level? Re-roll?

    At which point a lot of people would just give up and go find something else to play.

    Having no ability to repsec at all just hurts the game. Rather you should limit the ability to respec. Make it so that a respec is an "oh shit" option and not something you can do any time you want to.

    I remember in DAoC you got a free respec at 40, then again at cap. Something like that is much better than no respec at all imho.

    I can live with systems that allow me to re-spec ONCE. But systems in games like Archeage that allow you basically re-spec for "nothing" (rather low ingame money fee) is stupid, imo.

    Lineage 3 - www.lineage3-online.com
    Web & Graphic Design - www.xdrac.com

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by maplestone
    Assuming the budget for making the game is constant, what existing content are you willing to sacrifice in order to have developer time to design/animate/tweak extra classes?
    Voice acting and cutscenes! Hands down the 2 biggest waste of resources in MMOs today.

    [EDIT]
    On Topic:
    I'd like to see more diversity in classes.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    I liked the system D&D 3.5 used, but the one Lineage used? -No thank you. I thought the classes were quite dull before you specialized. Why would you let players go through with that? Then again, Lineage was also very grindy, it might affect my judgement somewhat.

    I didn't come even close to high or even mid-levels and I even tried to play it on a server which had 8x the rewards normal servers did.

    No thanks.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • geelgeel GroningenPosts: 90Member
    Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
    Originally posted by xDrac
    Originally posted by geel

    Very much agree. But I feel like there are more ways to improve the class systems nowadays.

    Also I think class respecs kinda ruin the  customization somewhat. 

    I agree with you. Imo, there should be no class re-specs at all. Choosing your skills and class should be final. So you have to put great thought into your choices and stick with them until the end. Want to do something differently? Make a new character. Sure, that might sound harsh. But I believe it is better this way.

    The only thing that's achieved doing this is alienating players. Make a simple mis-click and you want people to re-roll? What if the play style isn't quite right for you and you should have specced a different tree but you already got to mid level? Re-roll?

    At which point a lot of people would just give up and go find something else to play.

    Having no ability to repsec at all just hurts the game. Rather you should limit the ability to respec. Make it so that a respec is an "oh shit" option and not something you can do any time you want to.

    I remember in DAoC you got a free respec at 40, then again at cap. Something like that is much better than no respec at all imho.

    Alienating players isnt at all the only thing you achieve with it. Also a sense of commitment and bonding with your char. A system with no respecs would allow you to make a tiny mistake. Like oh shit I should have put that point in dex or str.. but now I have extra xxx.. It's not like you throw away points. Yes it's more hardcore, but isn't that what we all want? If you want simple. Pick any big game in the market. You can't make mistakes because your choices are so limited and respeccable. Give me a game where I can make mistakes because of more customization and choices. Doesn't that last sentence sound great? To me it even holds the essence of gaming.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,779Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by xDrac
    Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
    Originally posted by xDrac
    Originally posted by geel

    Very much agree. But I feel like there are more ways to improve the class systems nowadays.

    Also I think class respecs kinda ruin the  customization somewhat. 

    I agree with you. Imo, there should be no class re-specs at all. Choosing your skills and class should be final. So you have to put great thought into your choices and stick with them until the end. Want to do something differently? Make a new character. Sure, that might sound harsh. But I believe it is better this way.

    The only thing that's achieved doing this is alienating players. Make a simple mis-click and you want people to re-roll? What if the play style isn't quite right for you and you should have specced a different tree but you already got to mid level? Re-roll?

    At which point a lot of people would just give up and go find something else to play.

    Having no ability to repsec at all just hurts the game. Rather you should limit the ability to respec. Make it so that a respec is an "oh shit" option and not something you can do any time you want to.

    I remember in DAoC you got a free respec at 40, then again at cap. Something like that is much better than no respec at all imho.

    I can live with systems that allow me to re-spec ONCE. But systems in games like Archeage that allow you basically re-spec for "nothing" (rather low ingame money fee) is stupid, imo.

    You pick the spec you want.  Then your skills get nerfed in a needed balancing update so that your build is not what you would have picked if the balancing update had been in place sooner.  But if you want a sensible build, you have to reroll your character and start completely from scratch?  No thanks.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,779Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by xDrac

    Yeah I'd say those are the most common. Aren't you tired of seeing the same old classes over and over? Moreover, doesn't it suck that you can pick your final class at the very beginning of the game already? What I'm talking about are Class Changes. Don't you miss them? It gives you something to look forward to and lets your character advance, it adds in diversity and makes your character rather unique. Imo, Lineage II did a great job with class advancement and diversity. There were 34 different classes, all rather unique. You would pick your base class type at character creation (ie. mage or fighter) and as you leveld up, you would have to complete class change quests at specific levels to advance further (1st Class Change: Level 20 / 2nd Class Change: Level 40 / 3rd Class Change: Level 76 [...]). Also, in the earlier chronicles you would be required to work for your skills. After hitting level 40 and reaching your second class advancement, you had to get your skill spellbooks by hunting monsters and hoping for them to drop your class specific spellbook. Of course, it was hard getting your skills together, but also fun and it added something of value very early on in the game.

    So if you want two different characters of different classes that don't branch off until later in the game, you have to play the same class through the same content all the way up to level 76?  No thanks.  Tabula Rasa did have a solution to that, though:  let players play through the low level character once and then clone it just before the class switch.  That would probably lead to nearly deserted lower levels, though, once even high level players creating alts doesn't mean a need to redo the lower level areas.

    That said, I would like to see more diversity in class choices.  So often a game starts by saying that there are four classes, and without reading the details, I can tell you what they are:  tank, healer, melee damage dealer, and ranged damage dealer.  Occasionally that guess is wrong, but if it's not, I'm not interested in the game.

  • XiaokiXiaoki White Pigeon, MIPosts: 2,602Member Uncommon

    Its funny that you use Lineage 2 as your example because it had terrible class balancing.


    Pretty much all MMOs with lots of classes have had really bad class balancing. Lineage 2, DAoC and Everquest 2 off the top of my head.

    EQ2 got better over the years but it took a while.


    Also, not a fan of the class advancement system. Its like, here slog your way through this horribly boring basic class to get to the class you actually want to play.

    In every MMO that has done it, the basic class levels have never been fun.


    I would rather have an MMO with around 10 well done standard classes than an MMO with 30 or so badly done unique classes.

  • xDracxDrac HamburgPosts: 183Member
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

    Its funny that you use Lineage 2 as your example because it had terrible class balancing.


    Pretty much all MMOs with lots of classes have had really bad class balancing. Lineage 2, DAoC and Everquest 2 off the top of my head.

    EQ2 got better over the years but it took a while.


    Also, not a fan of the class advancement system. Its like, here slog your way through this horribly boring basic class to get to the class you actually want to play.

    In every MMO that has done it, the basic class levels have never been fun.


    I would rather have an MMO with around 10 well done standard classes than an MMO with 30 or so badly done unique classes.

    That depends solely on how you would define "class balance". And I don't think L2 had bad class balancing. Natrually, a dwarven crafter isn't going to be THE PVP CLASS.

    Lineage 3 - www.lineage3-online.com
    Web & Graphic Design - www.xdrac.com

  • sfc1971sfc1971 UtrechtPosts: 421Member
    Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
    Originally posted by xDrac
    Originally posted by geel

    Very much agree. But I feel like there are more ways to improve the class systems nowadays.

    Also I think class respecs kinda ruin the  customization somewhat. 

    I agree with you. Imo, there should be no class re-specs at all. Choosing your skills and class should be final. So you have to put great thought into your choices and stick with them until the end. Want to do something differently? Make a new character. Sure, that might sound harsh. But I believe it is better this way.

    The only thing that's achieved doing this is alienating players. Make a simple mis-click and you want people to re-roll? What if the play style isn't quite right for you and you should have specced a different tree but you already got to mid level? Re-roll?

    At which point a lot of people would just give up and go find something else to play.

    Having no ability to repsec at all just hurts the game. Rather you should limit the ability to respec. Make it so that a respec is an "oh shit" option and not something you can do any time you want to.

    I remember in DAoC you got a free respec at 40, then again at cap. Something like that is much better than no respec at all imho.

    This is bullshit and then some.

    In Lord of the Rings Online one of the intresting aspects was that if the players in a group were willing to respect and adjust their playing style, you could break out of  the trinity setup and go in without a guardian or minstrel. Respect captains and burglars to healing and a good team could make it work.

    The people who tend be for rigid classes tend be the kind of people who pick a high DPS class, race through content then bitch there are no healers. In groups they tend to shout about how good they are at DPS and everyone should worship them and keep them alive...

    They tend to be FOR class divesity if this means extra choices in min-maxing their DPS build. If it means that they have to adjust their play style to the group, then they run away screaming. 

    If you want class diversity then you pretty much need to be able to respec on the go because how else can you adjust to a new group? Can't find a dedicated healer? Then either respec to be more resilient yourself and make do without a healer, or spam lfg with "need healer" messages.

    SWTOR was really bad in this, most classes had some healing capacity, everyone specced for pure damage and then bitched the healing in group sucked... If only people could simply respec before a group quest then people could go DPS for solo and their class role for group content. But hey, that would make the game fun to play, can't have that can we.

  • geelgeel GroningenPosts: 90Member

    I don't recall L2 having bad class balancing at all tbh. 

    MMO's have become like a religion. You all believe in these western mmo's that have easy questing, skill trees, standard classes, standard arena/faction pvp, easy to get to level caps, auction houses, mounts, instances etc etc.

    And you all defend this and jump on other (eastern) mmo's and any ideas that challenge these beliefs with really black and white arguments. But how many of these mmo's have to fail before you see that perhaps some changes could lead to something amazingly fun. Look at games that sort of succeed that don't follow these beliefs. Path of Exile. Completely different mechanics for character progression, and it is simply amazing in that aspect. DFUW is amazing for it's pvp albeit it being niche. Look at all the clones, aion, tera, gw2, wow, aoc more or less, neverwinter and many more. It's all the same deal. And all the while ppl keep complaining the mmo scene is taking a dive. I say this is true because developers listen too much to you guys.

  • geelgeel GroningenPosts: 90Member

    This is bullshit and then some.

    In Lord of the Rings Online one of the intresting aspects was that if the players in a group were willing to respect and adjust their playing style, you could break out of  the trinity setup and go in without a guardian or minstrel. Respect captains and burglars to healing and a good team could make it work.

    The people who tend be for rigid classes tend be the kind of people who pick a high DPS class, race through content then bitch there are no healers. In groups they tend to shout about how good they are at DPS and everyone should worship them and keep them alive...

    They tend to be FOR class divesity if this means extra choices in min-maxing their DPS build. If it means that they have to adjust their play style to the group, then they run away screaming. 

    If you want class diversity then you pretty much need to be able to respec on the go because how else can you adjust to a new group? Can't find a dedicated healer? Then either respec to be more resilient yourself and make do without a healer, or spam lfg with "need healer" messages.

    SWTOR was really bad in this, most classes had some healing capacity, everyone specced for pure damage and then bitched the healing in group sucked... If only people could simply respec before a group quest then people could go DPS for solo and their class role for group content. But hey, that would make the game fun to play, can't have that can we.

    Respeccing means diversity in your playstyle .But it takes away the diversity in playstyles of the different ppl that you come across. I just like the idea of seeing some players as mages that play completely different from other mages etc. Perhaps using different skills, differences in resillience etc. It sux these classes can just respec on the fly because they lose their identity while doing so. That is just my personal thought and preference.

  • MirariMirariMirariMirari Vernon, TXPosts: 47Member

    Well for me the usual classes are like

    Magician, Cleric, Warrior, Archer, Healer, Rogue

     

    But I like how some other games have unique classes like on Elsword, the EVE girl thing xD

    I guess Kali from Dragon Nest and Tinkerer.

     

    Theres much more.

    But I find it sad how most games don't have melee fighters or scythe meisters. Vindictus has some unique classes to, unless I've been missing out.

    I really don't know what to put here.

  • BahamutKaiserBahamutKaiser Hyattsville, MDPosts: 306Member

    I'm not really interested in just playing different classes and such, I also don't feel it's all bad when your class is chosen to begin with. The reason why, is simply because I want to see completely different characters, not just classes. Some variation like being a Samurai make for flexibility, but if I choose to play a Vampire, or a Dragon (if I ever get a choice), the behaviors and options are immediately different, you don't class change into these, their race options, and specing between races would be worse that class specing.

    As for inflexible progression and possible wrong choices, I feel this is mostly a symptom of inadequately designed options, why is anything blaitantly inferior to another? I personally prefer a game where everyone can choose to pursue anything in the game, and each action and option comes with enough circumstancial advantages and disadvantages that they can never be universally advantagious. Optomized builds will always exist, but when there are clearly flawed and disfuctional choices which do not contribute to success... there's a problem.

    Ultimately, I don't feel the game should be about how you choose to build your class, but how you choose to play them... If you make players deliniate their choices and force them to play that specific build, than their really just playing a predesigned role, but if you give them the flexibility to ultimately do everything, how they play will be based on what they choose to do in battle. And if you make each option uniquely circumstancial so their isn't any blaitently superior choices, and success is derived from making the best choices, or better choices than your foe (given the situation), than there arn't any OP builds or classes, it's just best tactical choices.

    For instance, dude magician does a westward win gust, his allies can now move westward against their foes faster, and their foes take a movement penalty trying to move eastward toward them. A seemingly simple effect, but what if their are flying units, suddenly flying units are getting blown around, despite their myriad advantages from movement efficiency to reach control, their easily subjigated by wind spells. The foe dude magician could cancel the westward wind with an eastward wind, or send and eastern warm current and start a tornado, since all of his flyers had to land anyway, he just throws in the warm current and lets the foes flyers get sucked into a vortex.

    Choice based combat is more fun than choice based building, you don't have to worry about whether you built right or respec pitfalls or optimal builds because everyone can pursue everything, and the ability to make choices and cause unique engagements allows gameplay to be interactive and unique.

    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
    That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  • geelgeel GroningenPosts: 90Member

    I agree somewhat. But that is what GW2 has done isn't it? Being able to just respec into whatever you want to play. And it has interactive skill uses like blast combo's and such. But I for one don't feel connected to any of my lvl 80 chars because of this. I can't even really explain why but out of all the mmo's I played I find GW2 classes least appealing and just plain boring. My guardian for example. All he does is grant others retaliation, regen, aegis, stability and protection. And he heals a bit. Exactly what he should do, what is expected of him and super boring. I don't feel like I really have any impact at all. It's all just hit, dodge repeat. And spam 2 of your chosen skills. Then apply autoheal when needed. Really.. everybody plays that way. Every single class has to play that way... Ahh and here I go again complaining about gw2 :S I always end up going there.. sorry

    I just hate how they left behind all the good old mmo ideas and came up with this new crap that is supposedly innovatibe but really just hides the same shitty mechanics under shinier bells and whistles over and over again.

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    If a game must have both dedicated classes and trinity roles here's what I think: Allow people to level each class individually (if you switch your previous class level freezes) and allow each class a spec into each role. Earth Elemental spec'd Mages as tanks or HP draining Rogues as healers. I'd rather not be tied down to one role or class if I'm expected to spend a decent amount of time leveling it. Just 2cp.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,474Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by xDrac

    Yeah I'd say those are the most common. Aren't you tired of seeing the same old classes over and over? Moreover, doesn't it suck that you can pick your final class at the very beginning of the game already? What I'm talking about are Class Changes. Don't you miss them? It gives you something to look forward to and lets your character advance, it adds in diversity and makes your character rather unique. Imo, Lineage II did a great job with class advancement and diversity. There were 34 different classes, all rather unique. You would pick your base class type at character creation (ie. mage or fighter) and as you leveld up, you would have to complete class change quests at specific levels to advance further (1st Class Change: Level 20 / 2nd Class Change: Level 40 / 3rd Class Change: Level 76 [...]). Also, in the earlier chronicles you would be required to work for your skills. After hitting level 40 and reaching your second class advancement, you had to get your skill spellbooks by hunting monsters and hoping for them to drop your class specific spellbook. Of course, it was hard getting your skills together, but also fun and it added something of value very early on in the game.

    So if you want two different characters of different classes that don't branch off until later in the game, you have to play the same class through the same content all the way up to level 76?  No thanks.  Tabula Rasa did have a solution to that, though:  let players play through the low level character once and then clone it just before the class switch.  That would probably lead to nearly deserted lower levels, though, once even high level players creating alts doesn't mean a need to redo the lower level areas.

    That said, I would like to see more diversity in class choices.  So often a game starts by saying that there are four classes, and without reading the details, I can tell you what they are:  tank, healer, melee damage dealer, and ranged damage dealer.  Occasionally that guess is wrong, but if it's not, I'm not interested in the game.

     The problem is choice.  Don't give them choices.  Make them get abilities through gameplay.  So if the mage wants to get the fireball spell, he has to defeat the content that gives it.  If you allow branching in class or talents and the devs have to make changes then you have to allow them to redo branch choices.  If devs nerf the fireball because they have to doesn't affect the mages choice to not go after the frostbolt spell.

  • RossbossRossboss Runes of Magic, TXPosts: 240Member

    I think you're right to a certain degree. Yes, the classes are a bit worn out and that bringing in advanced classes does add some diversity. However, I think some games have executed this very poorly and others have just not executed it enough.

    The way I wish character advancement was done is much like the Dual Card System used in Castlevania: Circle of the Moon.

    It works a little something like this (for those of you that don't know):

    Select a Primary Card - This defines the element and some of the basic mechanics for your powers.

    Select your Secondary Card - This defines the Major Mechanics on how the ability works and how often you rely on it.

    I wish the class system was defined like this, not necessarily defining what you do as your character but what your special power is. Classes should allow players to decide their primary mode of play (Offense/Defense/Support) and then allow them to choose a specific set of powers that either redefine how the character is played, accentuate certain play style choices, make up for deficiencies in the original class. There are some card combinations that simply add extra damage or change your attacking weapon when activated. Others absorb or reduce damage you take by certain elements. Some summon companions that attack when you attack. The really odd ones change your mode of attack and essentially how you play the game entirely. Essentially, I would be happy if a game came along that allowed you to pick a primary card at the beginning and giving you the option to redefine certain skills using secondary cards to effect them in ways that are not normally available to the primary card.

    I can hope that some game will pick this up and allow players to choose their primary style of play while letting the users choose their alternate mode of play to either fit into groups or push into solo play better than they have currently. The closest that I have found in the MMORPG universe to this is Runes of Magic.

    I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
    I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
    I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

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