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[Column] General: Darkfall’s Disgusting HOGGs

SBFordSBFord Associate Editor - News ManagerThe Land of AZPosts: 16,649MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon

It was recently revealed that many members of the Darkfall: Unholy Wars clan, HOGG, were banned from the forums for 'griefing' other players. In today's Devil's Advocate, we take a look at the kerfuffle surrounding HOGG and offer a few thoughts about it. Do you have thoughts to share? If so, head to the comments to continue the discussion.

Today I will not be using that diplomatic cap as I normally do. I'm not going to rage in the same way that I did when SWTOR put out its early draft of its revenue model shift, but I also will not try to play nice the way I did when I wanted to write about Mr. Appleton's game-in-development. Instead, I'm simply going to point out why, contrary to what some people think on Darkfall: Unholy Wars' forums, the temporary ban of some (possibly all, but I can't confirm this) members of HOGG for griefing other players was not only the most logical course of action for Aventurine, but also the most telling reminder that Darkfall: Unholy Wars is not the Darkfall of old, and that is something worth fighting for.

Read more of Victor Barreiro Jr.'s The Devil's Advocate: Darkfall’s Disgusting HOGGs.

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Comments

  • asdarasdar Tequesta, FLPosts: 662Member Uncommon

    I'm just disappointed it's a temporary Ban, it should be permanent.

    I don't have a problem with being killed in Darkfall at all, not even getting killed over and over. That's PvP and all, but this is isn't a part of the game at all.

    The worst part to me is that this gets publicity and gives Darkfall a bad name. If you've played the game you'll see that the in-game community is a great bunch of people. Ask a question in chat and the guy that just killed you and took all your stuff will usually give you tips or advice.

    I have to turn off the chat because too many people are asking for and getting advice all the time. And that's not in guild chat, but global.

    DFUW forum community is awful, but in-game it is great.

    Asdar

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLPosts: 4,525Member Uncommon
    I think HOGG lasted 1 week in DF1. I wouldn't waste time by mentioning their name. They will be gone soon. Eventually you actually have to leave the safe zone...

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • AnthurAnthur StolbergPosts: 686Member Uncommon

    Temporary bans are a joke and the HOGG members are probably laughing about it. The only signal I get from this a someone who might be interested in DFUW is too stay away from this game. If you really want to make a point against griefing perma ban is the only way to go. As DFUW is a p2p game with subscription this will hurt the griefers.

    Anyway, I am glad there are games like DFUW, keeps those people out of other games.

  • QuailmanQuailman marlborough, MAPosts: 165Member
    Why give these losers the attention they crave? We should just ignore them so they can go back to being as insignificant as they deserve to be.

    Consume. Be silent. Die.

  • ScambugScambug TortugaPosts: 389Member
    Originally posted by Anthur

    Temporary bans are a joke and the HOGG members are probably laughing about it. The only signal I get from this a someone who might be interested in DFUW is too stay away from this game. If you really want to make a point against griefing perma ban is the only way to go. As DFUW is a p2p game with subscription this will hurt the griefers.

    Anyway, I am glad there are games like DFUW, keeps those people out of other games.

    Perma ban without a warning? That's too harsh, nobody does that unless the offense is major, which in this case it is not.

    Yeah there's always gonna be assholes and frustrates in MMOs trying to grief other people for their sick fun but they are a vast minority and as far as harvesting LOS griefing, well that's easily avoidable...just go harvest somewhere else. If he follows you, lure him outside the safe zone and have buddies ambush him or something. If you don't have buddies, just log out for 5 minutes, I garantee he won't be waiting for you when you come back.

  • eisenryueisenryu Acworth, GAPosts: 157Member
    Originally posted by Pie_Rat
    Originally posted by Anthur

    Temporary bans are a joke and the HOGG members are probably laughing about it. The only signal I get from this a someone who might be interested in DFUW is too stay away from this game. If you really want to make a point against griefing perma ban is the only way to go. As DFUW is a p2p game with subscription this will hurt the griefers.

    Anyway, I am glad there are games like DFUW, keeps those people out of other games.

    Perma ban without a warning? That's too harsh, nobody does that unless the offense is major, which in this case it is not.

    Yeah there's always gonna be assholes and frustrates in MMOs trying to grief other people for their sick fun but they are a vast minority and as far as harvesting LOS griefing, well that's easily avoidable...just go harvest somewhere else. If he follows you, lure him outside the safe zone and have buddies ambush him or something. If you don't have buddies, just log out for 5 minutes, I garantee he won't be waiting for you when you come back.

    Trolling people then posting copious videos on it on YouTube, making the community look like absolute shit and turning people away from the game is something that I would classify as a major offense to any developer/publisher. Permaban is the only way to go.

    World of Warcraft is the original creation of God. Real Life is in fact a WoW clone.

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  • aslan132aslan132 Tampa, FLPosts: 378Member Uncommon

    I dont think perma ban is a terrible thing here. These griefers know they are doing something wrong. They set out to purposely disturb and harass other players. They dont need "warnings" because they already know they are doing something wrong. 

     

    I love PVP. But this kind of griefing isnt PVP, they arent even leaving the safe zones. There should be no second chances when it comes to harassment. Let these guys get thier jollies somewhere else, eventually they will turn on each other, just like gankers do. 

  • ScambugScambug TortugaPosts: 389Member
    Originally posted by eisenryu
     

    Trolling people then posting copious videos on it on YouTube, making the community look like absolute shit and turning people away from the game is something that I would classify as a major offense to any developer/publisher. Permaban is the only way to go.

    Ok seen like that I guess it could be considered a major offense. I was being a little short sighted I guess. Besides, we all know what the first thing these idiots are gonna do when they eventually log in again....grief more.

    I'm just generally into giving people a second chance. Maybe that's not the way to go here, I dunno.

  • crysentcrysent cedar rapids, IAPosts: 837Member Uncommon
    I tend to agree that a perma ban is appropriate from a business model stand point.  It was this type of gameplay that caused the DF1 community to be nothing more then 1000 or so dicks running around killing eachother (not enough for AV to make money).  If AV wants to make money (and I believe they do) then they need to address their totally dysfunctional community and ingame culture.  Sandbox games don't have set rules in either direction, griefing CAN be allowed by the company, or anti-griefing rules CAN be enforced.  I believe in even the most extreme sandboxes, there needs to be some control of the community and griefing policies.
     
  • ScambugScambug TortugaPosts: 389Member

    Ok I just watched the video. I don't think it's harming the game at all. It only highlights the stupidity of the narrator.

    "The fear of loss is 10 times stronger than the fear of winning" WTF does that even mean? What a moron...

    Yeah a perma ban is totally justified here. Besides the guy repeats like 50 times how terrible the game is so he won't be missing it.

  • itchmonitchmon west islip, NYPosts: 1,714Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Anthur

    Temporary bans are a joke and the HOGG members are probably laughing about it. The only signal I get from this a someone who might be interested in DFUW is too stay away from this game. If you really want to make a point against griefing perma ban is the only way to go. As DFUW is a p2p game with subscription this will hurt the griefers.

    Anyway, I am glad there are games like DFUW, keeps those people out of other games.

    i assume AV will make their second offense permanent.

     

    they actually look to be trying this time to foster a good community.

     

    and i again offer an open invite to the players of HOGG to play eve, so we can take their stuff, make them have to buy plex to have the funds to keep playing, then blow up the stuff they spent plex on 

     

    it might or might not teach them a lesson but either way it will be fun to sic the eve anti-grief squads on these guys :)

    RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.

    Currently Playing EVE, DFUW

    Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.

    Dwight D Eisenhower

    My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.

    Henry Rollins

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member
    How can you even watch that whole video? Turned it off after a couple minutes. The narrator comes across like a total douche. Did he just learn the word gimp or something? In like two minutes he used it like a dozen times. Not that I play DF but frankly seems they would be better off without pricks like this playing anyways.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Surely the fact that they take this seriously and banned them is a good thing.

    It point to the game being well ran.

    I would be much more suspicious of a mm that didn't wild the banhamner and kept such things secret.
  • MMO_FanMMO_Fan okc, OKPosts: 166Member
    I was hoping Aventurine would fix the line of sight mechanic that allows this and not have to spend scarce resources paying GMs to police players.
  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    This is why pvp sandbox is and will always be niche -

    Dick hats and the completely sociopathic borderline psychotic treatment of their fellow players.

    MMO success = community.

    Grief/gank/harrass your community - community leaves.

    Everyone just wants to play the game their way.

    But if playing your way is at the expense of other's freedom to play their way, you're a douche cannon.

    It's online bullying. No other way to define it.

    And in the virtual world, to get away from it, all you have to do is log off.

     

     

  • HayasaHayasa S.S. de los reyes, MadridPosts: 29Member

    5 minutes of individual grief while they wasted way more time finding ways to grief. Also they spent money in something they dislike just for the mention 5 minutes of grief.

    On a side note, the 5 minutes are for the individual players, for them it's a huge waste of time since it's for a lot of characters. So they are spending time and money on something they dislike while they could be doing anything more productive and used the money in something they actually like. They could be shitting on top of their granny's head and still be more productive since they get to see the face of disgust on the person, not just assuming in their minds. Maybe that guy was just bore and waiting for friends and he was just playing along while they show up. You can't actually tell since you can't actually see the person behind the model.

    I think the only ones being gimps and griefed by HOGG is HOGG itself.

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,594Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by itchmon
    Originally posted by Anthur

    Temporary bans are a joke and the HOGG members are probably laughing about it. The only signal I get from this a someone who might be interested in DFUW is too stay away from this game. If you really want to make a point against griefing perma ban is the only way to go. As DFUW is a p2p game with subscription this will hurt the griefers.

    Anyway, I am glad there are games like DFUW, keeps those people out of other games.

    i assume AV will make their second offense permanent.

     

    they actually look to be trying this time to foster a good community.

     

    and i again offer an open invite to the players of HOGG to play eve, so we can take their stuff, make them have to buy plex to have the funds to keep playing, then blow up the stuff they spent plex on 

     

    it might or might not teach them a lesson but either way it will be fun to sic the eve anti-grief squads on these guys :)

    What makes you think that they aren't already playing EVE? Looking at it, it seems to be typical Goonie behavior, which we've all come to expect.

  • parrotpholkparrotpholk Leland, NCPosts: 3,275Member
    This guy is painful to listen to.  He is an idiot.  Please remove the video.  Not everyone who plays DF is this way.
  • OzmodanOzmodan Hilliard, OHPosts: 7,191Member Uncommon

    When you use game rules in a way they were not intended to be used to interfere with other players who cannot retaliate and then post vidoes of what you are doing, it should be a very easy decision, perma ban them!

    You have to wonder if the parents of these social misfits realize their kids have major personality issues.

    Oh and while I detest goon players in Eve, even they would not stoop to this.

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member

    What's really bad, is that so much of the darkfall community is accepting of this kind of behavior. It's literally a game that caters to some of the worst kinds of people on the internet (not talking illegal stuff here).

    As long as DFUW is ok with targeting that particular audience, then I guess it works for them.  I just can't see that being the best business decision to make.

    You make me like charity

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    The rule of thumb for where community and business interests coincide: if your actions are likely to encourage another person to quit playing the game, you are essentially asking to be booted yourself.
  • adino32adino32 Long Beach, CAPosts: 25Member

    The community makes the game is so true.  At this point in my mmo decision making process, I don't even read about the game.  I read the forums and see what the community is like.  Ok I do read about the game.  As one of the poster said that the forum community is generally worse than the ingame community but still, it gives a good idea who you will be playing with.  If you read the forum thread linked in the article, my goodness.  I am surprised at how many people are willing to pay for a game where the sole purpose is to make life miserable for other people. 

    I totally get PVP.  It is an adrenaline rush that PvE will almost never give.  But griefing?  I just don't get it?  And to pay 40 bucks to buy a game and then pay the sub to grief...  Truly mystifying.

    I can't speak for anybody else, but I thought about trying DFUW, but I don't need to play with these types of idiots.  This guy's action accomplished one thing, it turned me away from the game and maybe that is what he wanted to do so kudos to him.  Well this guy's actions and like 60% of the posters who supported his behavior.

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon
    If I was on the fence about trying this game out, this sort of thing would definately stop me. I have enough real world frustrations to deal with, why would I add putting up with the stupidity of some asshat to the mix. 

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • adino32adino32 Long Beach, CAPosts: 25Member
    Originally posted by asmkm22

    What's really bad, is that so much of the darkfall community is accepting of this kind of behavior. It's literally a game that caters to some of the worst kinds of people on the internet (not talking illegal stuff here).

    As long as DFUW is ok with targeting that particular audience, then I guess it works for them.  I just can't see that being the best business decision to make.

    Their TOS pretty clearly states that griefing is not allowed.  However, it is one thing to put in a generic ToS and another to actively enforce.  According to the some the reason DF1 died is because it purged anyone but hardcore pvp players through natural evolution of the game.  Thus now in DFUW you got saef zones and actual rules and to be fair they did ban them, but just reading the forum thread; AV has a long way to go if they actually want to prevent exactly what happened in DF1 and not let it happen in DFUW.

    I don't think a true sandbox PVP is a sustainable business model.  Not even for small gaming companies trying to corner a niche market.  Hell no to AAA MMOs.

  • hardiconhardicon jackson, MSPosts: 358Member

    well that is just flat out bad game design right there and adventurine should be publicly flogged for that horrible game design. 

     

    now on to the actual act of what he was doing.  This video is the best reason I can think of to stay away from pvp games.  there are way more assholes in pvp games than in any other type of game.  The person that made this video needs to be punched in the face repeatedly until he understand being a asshole on the internet is stupid.  if you truly want to be a asshole go be one in real life where people can choose to punch you in the face if they want.  on the internet it is just being a coward. 

    also there should be no safe zones in a pvp game.  someone decides to be a ass, kill him and take his stuff.  cuts down on asses in the game while still keeping with the flavor of a dangerous world and makes pvp more fun.

    overall though bad game design plus assholes = dont play the game if you want to have fun.  could care less about the ban because these idiots will just buy a new copy and do it again or pay 15 bucks whatever it is and keep doing it under another account.

     

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