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The problem MJ is facing is a particular mindset of the stealther community. Note this is not the mindset of all stealthers but a lot of them.
Stealthers think that they need a high opener because if they don't kill their target in less than 5 seconds then they will die easily. The problem is that they are low hps/armor so after that 5 seconds they lose a huge chunk of their sustained dps and can't really finish off the opponent.
The problem with this mindset is that it is false. The sustained dps of most stealthers isn't as dismal as most make it seem to be. I can show you tons of videos on youtube of stealthers from (insert your favorite stealther game here) where a stealther does a high opener on it's initial target, gets added on, and then the steather without re-stealthing proceeds to pwn the 2nd character, sometimes even a 3rd character.
Stealthers just don't want to adapt to any new system that might make it harder for them. They want to see a squishy caster and go Bam, Pow dead caster. The problem is that if this happens to the caster enough times, guess what? The caster quits the game. it's not a fun mechanic. To say that you need stealth to get to the caster is dumb as well because there are plenty of melee dps soloers that eat casters alive. Especially casters that don't pan, which in todays MMO days is a skill very very few casters have.
I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!
So what were looking at is a combo of the two links. Seems fun to me.
Originally posted by kaltahn I think VW/VS a wonderful idea but I'd rather see this as a later addition to the game and have archers at launch instead. That way the devs don't have to split focus on adding an additional layer (the Veil pseudo-world) to the game until after a finished product hits the 'shelves'.
If I had to guess, I'd say that Archers are a higher priority for launch than the VeilWalkers.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
Agree. I'd rather have archers than a crafter class for that matter. I get the sense though that the VW/VS classes are not part of the core classes guaranteed to be in the game at launch anyway. They might even be a 3rd stretch goal. I.e. 1st stretch goal is archers and new races, 2nd is The Depths, 3rd is VW/VS.
Camelot Unchained BackerDAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer
Here's what we know about stealth in CU:
1) you can attack ANYONE from the veil. So....just like stealth you can choose your target. Anyone who actually played stealth should appreciate this because it's familiar. 2) the veil will have other challenges - You can't afk/auto run your slow stealth butt around the zone (is this what's upsetting people?). It will take skill to set up your kills and not just win. Deal with it if you want to be amazeballs when it comes to most fights. 3) You can't sit in the veil and make a sammich - I admit this sucks. I love a good sammy, but we don't know if this includes pizza rolls yet. 4) One form of CC (not ALL) can send a target(s) to the veil for your destruction - Fun for the VW and better for the victim. Anyone who disagrees never was mezzed for 45 seconds - 1 min watching their group die one by one. At least this gives them a chance and something to do. 5) VS can see into the veil and try to "unpop" VW's. So basically it's like detect hidden. But if the VW doesn't suck, they can use VS traps to backfire on them (VS's) and those around them. 6) Not easy to slip right back into the veil - Maybe this is what is upsetting people? You can't gank some guy in the middle of 4-5 buddies and flash powder your way out? Or sprint till you can restealth? Hmm, it's different than what you're used to but so were washing machines at one point. And those worked out pretty well for everyone. 7) VW's are not as strong outside of the veil - Stealthers were never as strong after their stealth popped, but VW's can actually keep the advantage inside the veil for the whole fight. If anything doesn't this model of stealth favor the stealther more than current models do? 8) VWs can travel faster in the veil - I know no stealther is complaining about this. How many good kills did you let walk by because you couldn't move into position fast enough? 9) Gets harder to navigate the veil as VW's in close proximity raise - Stealth gank groups are going to have a hard time forming in this game. This is a good thing. Stealth is a skill class so if you're looking to stealth zerg why not just be visible and join the forces on the front line? There is still a home for that type of play style. We dont' yet know if 2, 3 or 5 people trigger this yet so stealth duo could still be a possibility.10) VW's won't PA your face off with openers. Makes sense why doesn't it? VW's have the total advantage anytime they are in the veil. They don't need it. It's the VS's job to make sure they can minimize the destruction that VW's will play no the battle field.
In short - these are all concepts and "idears" at this stage, but they are a GREAT starting point. I see both sides point of view, but if people could move from extreme love/hate to "maybe there are some good possibilities here" we can help MJ foster this idear into the next advancement in stealth/group gameplay.
Originally posted by meddyckFirst I have to say that I only played assassins in the BGs in DAOC and I'm not interested in either of these 2 classes although I'm very interested in archers whether they have some form of stealth/veilwalking or not. I'm still thinking over what's been revealed and need to learn more before I can vote. Some random thoughts....I would have greatly preferred to learn the mechanics of the core classes (healer/caster/tank/crafter/hybrid) before getting this stealth info.Are these 2 classes now added to the existing 5 that will definitely be in the game at release? Are they stretch goals? Or are they just food for thought that will be implemented (or not) at some point possibly after release?When a veilwalker is attacked by the veil will he be knocked out into the regular world (unstealthed)? Will AE damage spells from other classes knock veilwalkers out of stealth? Will non-stealthers be able to see veilwalkers while they are in the veil at all and be able to unstealth them?With the mechanic against multiple stealthers, will they basically be unable to participate in sieges or The Depths except by being unstealthed?With the huge map, lack of porting, no permanent keeps, and anti-grouping mechanism, it would seem that each veilwalker would spend a huge portion of his time running around to find solo enemies that are not near other veilwalkers. That doesn't sound like it would be fun for very long.Just ditch the veil hunter as a separate class and give archers, casters, or some other class that ability which is basically stealth lore from DAOC. Hell just give crafters the ability to create prescience nodes like in DAOC.Will a veilwalker have poisons? Will it dual wield? Will it be able to kill casters, healers, and crafters outside the veil?It sounded like veilwalkers will have a variation on climbing walls to get inside keeps. Will any other class have that?
It is a bit odd, we sort of learned about the nich class first rather than the classes most people will play.
Ozek - DAOCNiix - Other games that sucked
Best way to describe the reaction when you realize u just got put into the veil.
Originally posted by Tierless Yay or nay?
What's BSC stealth?
I think MJ's idea is pretty neat and fits with the world lore as it currently stands. I wouldn't necessarily call this stealth, but I also think MJ is steering clear of the traditional concepts. I think the Walker/Stalker concept could add some neat depth to the game in terms of challenge in dealing with environment and add a whole new level of RvR tactics.
I hope scouts do get camoflage and I would like to know more about how that would work. I personally don't know that I would want to play a Walker, simply because I want to be in the world with everyone else running around. I also want to have more of a traditional role of sneaking with the archer/scout. I find it more appealing to hide in a bush or tree or a hole spying on our enemies than disappearing into the Veil.
I'm not sure players who have played "stealther" classes in other MMO's will necessary be drawn to or find the VeilWalker concept appealing. Perhaps the niche crowd here would though.
This reminds me of a system in the World of Darkness rpgs, such as Werewolf: Apocalypse. Werewolves (and other beings) can leave the physical realm and go to a spiritual realm that coincides with the earth. It is generally referred to as the Umbra. Werewolves fight with their spiritual traits when in the Umbra and when in the physical realm they use their physical traits. Seems pretty similar.
if this is the way that stealth will be implemented, then it wont be stealthing anymore, but "shifting". because when you look at it, its not stealth at all, its 2 worlds "colliding" and some people will have the ability to shift between the 2 of them.
after a night sleep (i wont call it good night sleep, i slept 3 hours lol), i'm still not 100% sold to the results of the idea, but i'm totally sold on the originality of it, how everything fits in the background story of CU, the veil etc. Its freaking amazing.
If it doesnt end up in the game, it could be nonetheless a freaking good story for a novel lol
In any case, it wont change the fact that i'm still backing CU, still hoping to see it funds, still hoping to play it.
on a counterpart, i really had more hopes that "stealthers" would have more of some "spying" abilities, sabotage, and more of a "classical" use for them (and i'm not talking about actual combat). hopefully the archers will end up having those abilities, because i really think those kind of skills would truly add amazing gameplay possibilities as well.
That would be my main concern if "shifting" is the way stealth would be implemented. Its going to be pure RvR, so spying and all skills related SHOULD be in the game, and be an important port of it.
at least imo.
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoCThurka on WAR
The problem with this way to do it is that i dont think its feasable. it will be either in the game atlaunch, or wont be at all...its too much of a game changer to think of implementing it later on. Now i'm not comparing "shifitng" to ToA at all, but i think it would have the same effect if it was implemented AFTER launch....it would too much change the game from its original form, and that would be catastrophic.
Originally posted by BowbowDAoC on a counterpart, i really had more hopes that "stealthers" would have more of some "spying" abilities, sabotage, and more of a "classical" use for them (and i'm not talking about actual combat). hopefully the archers will end up having those abilities, because i really think those kind of skills would truly add amazing gameplay possibilities as well. That would be my main concern if "shifting" is the way stealth would be implemented. Its going to be pure RvR, so spying and all skills related SHOULD be in the game, and be an important port of it. at least imo.
You may have overlooked this from the update:
VeilWalkers won’t make great scouts (our archers would be a better choice)
Originally posted by meddyck Originally posted by BowbowDAoC on a counterpart, i really had more hopes that "stealthers" would have more of some "spying" abilities, sabotage, and more of a "classical" use for them (and i'm not talking about actual combat). hopefully the archers will end up having those abilities, because i really think those kind of skills would truly add amazing gameplay possibilities as well. That would be my main concern if "shifting" is the way stealth would be implemented. Its going to be pure RvR, so spying and all skills related SHOULD be in the game, and be an important port of it. at least imo.
yeah i had read it and remembered it, but was more talking about pure spying, sabotage, intel gathering etc ( i tend to associate "scout" with purely "20 albs at bledmeer faste !" kind of reports :P
First, I really don't understand the problem with stealth classes in MMOs. Meaning, why they're even considered a problem.
I know some MMOs made them a bit too overpowered sometimes, but mostly they're not such a big deal. If anything, I've found playing a stealth class is often more annoying than being the "priority target" of a stealth class (especially the "slow movement" Jacobs talks about, ugh). I've played a lot of healers, and those are the natural targets of slealthers, and I always liked duking it out with a slealther while trying to keep allies up at the same time.
Yeah, so they're invisible... So what? They become visible at some point and if the game balance is not all broken, you can just stick it out and get the upper hand if you play it right. Yeah, they're a sizeable annoyance anyway, but in my book, you do need some annoyances in MMO PVP.
As for what CU's going for, it sounds interesting, but I have to agree with the second poster: Is it really necessary to make it this complicated? Or the better question is: Will these mechanics make the overall game better? I hope so.
Great writers often say you should throw away your sleekest ideas (Faulkner called them "your darlings"), as they probably will not fit in well with the whole... And well, this sounds a like a really sleek idea.
I think what many a stealther isn't realize is you CAN do what you did in DAOC. Pop out of stealth and own someone. BUT you will have less opening DPS so you may want to focus on wounded players. You will probably have better amor and HP so thats cool. And, YOU FREAKEN GET FED VICTIMS! How cool is that?
So Mark said this during the Q&A after the update:
Q: When do you plan to implement the Veil walkers and Veil stalkers?MJ: 1) This is just an idea. No decision has been made, not even close to that. 2) Even if we go with these classes, they would come in after archers.
So that's a major evening update wasted on something that highly likely won't be in the game at release. Please focus on the parts of the game that are certain to be in it and haven't been covered yet over the remaining days. I know there has been a lot of interest in stealthers, but this is almost deceptive because people who like this idea and don't follow the Kickstarter as closely as some of us do are going to be thinking Veilwalkers will be in at launch when they most probably won't be. (This is also true of The Depths which is a stretch goal for a still undisclosed dollar amount.)
Originally posted by meddyck So Mark said this during the Q&A after the update: Q: When do you plan to implement the Veil walkers and Veil stalkers? MJ: 1) This is just an idea. No decision has been made, not even close to that. 2) Even if we go with these classes, they would come in after archers. So that's a major evening update wasted on something that highly likely won't be in the game at release. Please focus on the parts of the game that are certain to be in it and haven't been covered yet over the remaining days. I know there has been a lot of interest in stealthers, but this is almost deceptive because people who like this idea and don't follow the Kickstarter as closely as some of us do are going to be thinking Veilwalkers will be in at launch when they most probably won't be. (This is also true of The Depths which is a stretch goal for a still undisclosed dollar amount.)
He's just trying to spark interest because they need 570k in 5 days. Totally doable if the spike is like other projects.
I dislike the idea at its first vision, however going through beta it will look totally different if they even implimented it at release.... A lot of these ideas really get tested in Beta and see how things actually interact with each other, how hard it will be to balance ... how retarded the idea really is, because cool ideas don't always work.
I dont see why "is it guaranteed to be in on day one?!" is so incredibly vital that ideas should just be ignored. Thats only really important for the folks who just play each new MMO for a month and move on... but they never really become a part of the community anyway.
The biggest issue with this concept is that it is far bigger than just a stealth replacement. It is an entire alternate plane of existance (shares the material plane perhaps but no different than the astral plane in D&D for example). If implemented players will want more ... much more.
MJ is opening up a pandora's box with this idea. I hope he knows it. It may start out being a stealth like mechanics but it is a "place" not an ability. Players will want it expanded far beyond it's original design.
You stay sassy!
Originally posted by CluckingChicken Dedicating an entire class or spec to just countering another class seems really excessive.
The stalker is supposed to be a support class, they will do more than just guard against stealth.
Originally posted by UOlover Stealth shouldn't be this complicated. Just stop the stun lock for the entire health bar and instant vanishes
You could say this about just about any feature listed so far. But this game is trying to do MORE than games of the past. New ideas. We've grown so used to games that don't do anything different that when a game tries to be original, it's seem as delusional, impossible, or, excessive.
But for some of us it's seen as a breath of fresh air.
Originally posted by naezgul So you limit a stealthers to fighting only stealthérs and hunters that attack them? no thanks
DId I also read that you can simply enter forts when you get powerful enough?
"Oh look a defenseless crafter" gives chase (poof) Oh god Im in the veil "runs from VW"