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Poll: BSC Stealth

24

Comments

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

    Realistically, the nice thing about MMOs is they are alive, always evolving. If it doesnt work, we can adjust it, tweak it, add to it, take from it. As long as the core concept is good, we can build from that foundation until we get the right result from it. I think that sways me toward being ok with it. Could be similar to splinter cell vs.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdZRhRC6ZC0

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

    1 more vid, I did always like playing a spy in this.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2ZDaen5rRw

  • boxsndboxsnd Kraxton, ARPosts: 438Member Uncommon

    Stealther here: No I do not like it. 

    I like the focus on soloing and not stealthzerging, but why make it a separate minigame? I want to be part of the core game.

    Overall it sounds (unnecessarily) extremely complicated.

    Nothing was wrong with DAoC's stealth system. IMO it was the best stealth system in any MMO. Stealthers were only overpowered because of buffbots. On non-buffbot DAoC servers stealthers are actually underpowered and that's why they rely on stealthzerging.

    When he's talking about stunlock he means WoW, right? Stunlocking wasn't possible in DAoC. You had 1 stun and that was almost always purged.

    I think this BSC system caters to the forum whining vocal minority, and that's almost always a recipe for disaster.

    What I would want is something like DAoC's stealth system without buffbots and with an anti-stealthzerg mechanic (debuff?).

    DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  • redcappredcapp brook, NYPosts: 722Member
    Originally posted by boxsnd

    Stealther here: No I do not like it. 

    I like the focus on soloing and not stealthzerging, but why make it a separate minigame? I want to be part of the core game.

    Overall it sounds (unnecessarily) extremely complicated.

    Nothing was wrong with DAoC's stealth system. IMO it was the best stealth system in any MMO. Stealthers were only overpowered because of buffbots. On non-buffbot DAoC servers stealthers are actually underpowered and that's why they rely on stealthzerging.

    When he's talking about stunlock he means WoW, right? Stunlocking wasn't possible in DAoC. You had 1 stun and that was almost always purged.

    I think this BSC system caters to the forum whining vocal minority, and that's almost always a recipe for disaster.

    What I would want is something like DAoC's stealth system without buffbots and with an anti-stealthzerg mechanic (debuff?).

    He said in the comments it will NOT be a separate minigame.  You will be a part of the game.

     

     

     

     

    MJ just stated in the comment section as well that the veil could be worked into the CC system.  Interesting.  (Seems he is implying that characters could be pulled into the Veil as a form of CC without losing control of their toon)

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

    My comments may have sounded very negative, my management strategy is come up with an idea, think of all the bad potential, solve those problems until I get back to my idea and refine it so the problems never happen. Thats just how I process through ideas, works for me but to each their own.

  • SBE1SBE1 New York, NYPosts: 335Member

    Anything that can levitate and go through walls is just begging to be a game breaking unbalanced class that finds way to abuse the system.  This is the kind of thing you dream up, you think it might be cool, and then you see imaginative players find ways to abuse it and then you realize how bad an idea it really was, but you can't change it now because it's such a huge nerf to the class.   Better to just stop it now.

    It's also just too damn complex.  How about some of the ideas just simplified?   For example, to combat stealth gank groups, just do this:  If  (insert #) of stealth players of a given realm are within (insert AOE range), their stealth is reduced making them easier to detect, up to eventually no stealth at all, depending on the # of players.  You don't want to make the # of players too small since even stealth players like to be social, but you don't want it too big that they just can ambush a full group of visible players.  I'd suggest 2-3 no impact, 3-4 modest stealth reduction, and 6 stealthers basically makes them visible to just about anyone passing by them (only invisible to players at a distance). 

    Or you want archers to be scouts?  Just do a combination of Shadowbane's "radar" function for archers and maybe DAOC's realm ability Master of Stealth which increases stealth detection for assassins.

    Don't like stunlock?  Just don't make it available in the opening rotation of skills or make stealth stuns last half as long as stuns from other classes.

    Don't like instant-on stealth?  Just make stealth require no-combat for 20 seconds AND X-radius away from any enemy player.  So, any enemy player chasing a stealther but can't get into combat can still keep the stealther from going invisible as long as they are reasonably close.  The 20 seconds is just enough time for the other realm to respond to the attack by a stealther, without making the re-stealth take excessivel long.

    You don't want to nerf stealth to the point nobody wants to play it, and you want it so that a stealther who waits for the appropriate time to attack has the advantage, since they are using tactics.  You don't want a stealther who just willy-nilly attacks anyone anytime and still wins, especially if they win via stun-lock.  When I play my ranger on a not-to-be-named-free-DAOC-shard, I sit and wait for the right time to attack the enemy and waiting for the right enemy (no big shield, for example).  So, yes, my win-loss ratio is pretty good because I'm waiting and choosing the right target at the right time.  That should always be the case for giving a stealther an advantage.   

    Now, if you want to take these simple ideas and weave them into the lore, feel free.  But as a PvP player with extensive Stealth and non-stealth experience, I'm happy to help MJ and the crew as CSE come up with "solutions" to a perceived "stealth problem".    But mentioning someone going through walls is just a no-go.  It is begging for someone to find a way to exploit it in ways the developers never anticipate.

  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member

    ok i wont spoil MJ's fun, he really deserves to taste it deeply.

    There is SO MUCH more to it guys....i'mo just too tired to really explain it well, but from what we read on KS comments...its just...extramazing...just think about something else that is much controversial in mmos and that there was major issues toward that thing in DAoC....and now picture that this thing i'm not saying sends you in the veil....

     

    for the rest, i ll let someone more fluent in english (and less tired) tell you more....

    but seriously...i was doubting when i first heard that BSC stealth....but now i'm pretty much convinced.

     

    image

    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

    image

  • redcappredcapp brook, NYPosts: 722Member

    Valid point regarding moving through walls.  There obviously need to be checks in place.

     

    Aside from that, I like his veil system over your alternatives.  The way he is fleshing it out over comments right now is very promising.  Seems like it will be playing a very significant part in the whole RvR experience.

  • ego13ego13 Reno, NVPosts: 267Member
    Originally posted by Tierless

    Yay or nay?

    I'm just glad that it won't matter...because the game won't fund.

     

    It's really too bad...but I guess that's what happens when you put a larger valuation on your idea than it deserves for such a small niche.

    Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

    image

  • RigamortisRigamortis Nextdoor, CAPosts: 202Member Common
    Originally posted by Cirin
    Originally posted by Tierless

    Yay or nay?

    I'm just glad that it won't matter...because the game won't fund.

     

    It's really too bad...but I guess that's what happens when you put a larger valuation on your idea than it deserves for such a small niche.

    Gonna enjoy quoting this back to you when it does.  I have the crow ready....just bring the plate.

    image

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

    Another thought. CC was usually a few seconds. If I had to pick between being frozen for a few seconds or getting pulled out of the big battle to fight a jacked up Rogue 1v1 I would rather just be frozen for a few seconds.

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

    I think it comes down to this, period.
    Would people rather be stunned for a few seconds and stay in the bigger conflict/battle, or get transported to the veil to fight 1on1 for (I dunno how long)?

  • redcappredcapp brook, NYPosts: 722Member
    Originally posted by Tierless

    Another thought. CC was usually a few seconds. If I had to pick between being frozen for a few seconds or getting pulled out of the big battle to fight a jacked up Rogue 1v1 I would rather just be frozen for a few seconds.

    This I agree with.  But if it's a question of working out a system with the veil vs say, minute long mezz, I'd rather a new system be worked out.  Short duration CC though I think is okay as is.

  • ego13ego13 Reno, NVPosts: 267Member
    Originally posted by Rigamortis
    Originally posted by Cirin
    Originally posted by Tierless

    Yay or nay?

    I'm just glad that it won't matter...because the game won't fund.

     

    It's really too bad...but I guess that's what happens when you put a larger valuation on your idea than it deserves for such a small niche.

    Gonna enjoy quoting this back to you when it does.  I have the crow ready....just bring the plate.

    I'm hoping...wouldn't have funded it if I didn't want to play it.  Just annoyed at their overvaluation.

    Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

    image

  • redcappredcapp brook, NYPosts: 722Member
    Originally posted by Cirin
    Originally posted by Rigamortis
    Originally posted by Cirin
    Originally posted by Tierless

    Yay or nay?

    I'm just glad that it won't matter...because the game won't fund.

     

    It's really too bad...but I guess that's what happens when you put a larger valuation on your idea than it deserves for such a small niche.

    Gonna enjoy quoting this back to you when it does.  I have the crow ready....just bring the plate.

    I'm hoping...wouldn't have funded it if I didn't want to play it.  Just annoyed at their overvaluation.

    I definitely want this game to fund.  But I have wondered a number of times if they wouldn't have been better off asking for less initially, and using stretch goals to bump up the amount after the initial funding period is over.

  • TamanousTamanous Edmonton, ABPosts: 2,126Member Uncommon

    I posted elsewhere about this but to repeat the point I think that the fault here is in calling is stealth.

     

    This is plane walking not stealth. Planes in fantasy fiction isn't new or original, it's a popular concept in most fantasy rpgs. I'd be more happy if MJ simply said, "We won't have stealth in CU ... but we will have plane walking". He wants to add something to an mmo not really ever done before? And people are bitching about it?

    You stay sassy!

  • JoeShmoe75JoeShmoe75 Bradenton, FLPosts: 20Member
    I guess I get the concept. Your world while stealth will look like some of those DA:origins levels where your dead/asleep or something. Works I suppose, but it seems like alot of work. I would say just have limited duration stealth but on a long timer/no vanish and take away insane stunlocks. Make the game about skill and positionals.
  • MortifyMortify None of your BusinessPosts: 95Member
    Originally posted by UOlover
    Stealth shouldn't be this complicated. Just stop the stun lock for the entire health bar and instant vanishes

    ^^this

    Methos, Armsman, EU Excalibur
    Jager, Infiltrator, EU Excalibur
    Phos, Cleric, EU Excalibur
    Mortify, Sorcerer, EU Excalibur

  • As a guy who both loves playing stealthers as well as non-stealthers, I must say this system sounds like a great way to keep stealth both interesting and balanced.

    I agree it sounds excessive to have a class dedicated only to hunting walkers, but then again that's not the case. If you read the interview that was posted here on CU's stealth system, you'll see that the class capable of stalking the walkers is a support class for general purposes, but is capable of switching roles to a hunter type class where walkers are concerned. So it's simply a class with multiple roles, depending on a given scenario.

    And honestly, I don't see what's so complicated about it. I think "being in the veil" is mostly the case of changing the visual outlook, kind of like being dead in WoW, and adding in a few dangers that only pertain to the stealthers. Should be pretty easy to understand and implement.

    Gotta say I love the idea of a group of walkers daring the Veil for a short period to walk through a keep wall and attack the defenders from behind!

    I agree with one of the above posters that this isn't stealth as in the traditional RPG sense as in simply being a guy trying to conceal himself in the shadows, but I don't see why that has to be the only definition of stealth. It certainly fulfills the concept of getting somewhere while hidding and enabling surprise attacks or scouting. Which are the traditional purposes of stealth.

    It also sounds like, if you're looking for a less metaphysical kind of stealth, it'll be in there for the archers.

    And for people wanting to play a ninja, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to have a veil walker type class who wears a hood and strikes into reality with blades crackling with the raging energy of the Veil.

  • morfidonmorfidon BochniaPosts: 245Member

    Well. I don't know what was wron in daoc stealhers. I played almost all characters and  there were always counters to kill staelhers.

    Perforate Artery wasn't OPED if you were in grp. Even if you weren't you could still kill 1on1 stealher as a caster. You could kill even more than one stealher but you had to use tactic.

    Come on me and my cousin playing as pally /arms were taking down full grp of high realm rank stealhers. They were never oped and they really made daoc kinda interesting to fight, to play them, to hunt them in df, to hunt in df etc. There was plently of fun on both sides.

    Without PA stealhers would be so baaad and remember that PA was hard to use, somebody had to stay in one place or  you had to pre-think where your target will go in order to be in front of him. Or to be behind target to backstab etc. People could avoid that by using pbaoe, gtaoe, other stealhers hunting stealhers, good healer, DI etc. etc.

    I've never seen better system than in daoc. And really i played stealhers just to like RR7 (inf) RR9(scout) and RR5(minstrel). I played mostly casters(rr12, rr8, rr8, rr7, rr7 etc.) and i loved them because of surprise that could happen.

    You don't understand that the thing that you might hate sometimes is just really cool. Remember that 'hate' gives emotion and it keeps you sometimes playing, because it's just not easy. Because every second might happend something unpredictable. 

  • StrommStromm BrisbanePosts: 243Member
    Originally posted by Tierless

    Yay or nay?

    Mechanic seems interesting, change the number of players nearby debuff (which won't work obviously since even the tech demos talk about 100' vs 100's, which means VW's will be constantly disadvantaged just due to choosing VW) to a straight personal debuff based on time spent in the veil. Stacking debuff, stacks every 5 seconds in the veil, stacks to 9. Each stack reduces your stats by 10%. Debuff lasts 5 seconds unless stacks increased. 10 second channel to enter the veil. You wanna hang out invis? Sure, but you're gonna be kitten weak for a short time when you destealth or get popped. That is called Risk/Reward.

    That Veil Weakness debuff also amplifies the potency of VeilStalker abilities by the same percentage. Don't be invis unless you have to or you may pay the price.

    The veil is not somewhere you should be hanging out watching tv. It should be a dangerous choice everytime you enter it.

     

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Tamanous

    I posted elsewhere about this but to repeat the point I think that the fault here is in calling is stealth.

     

    This is plane walking not stealth. Planes in fantasy fiction isn't new or original, it's a popular concept in most fantasy rpgs. I'd be more happy if MJ simply said, "We won't have stealth in CU ... but we will have plane walking". He wants to add something to an mmo not really ever done before? And people are bitching about it?

    yea think that would of been better to not have called it stealth at all because it brings up to many comparisons to all the stealth classes in past MMOs.. but again I'm glad he is going for something different

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon

    First I have to say that I only played assassins in the BGs in DAOC and I'm not interested in either of these 2 classes although I'm very interested in archers whether they have some form of stealth/veilwalking or not. I'm still thinking over what's been revealed and need to learn more before I can vote. Some random thoughts....

    I would have greatly preferred to learn the mechanics of the core classes (healer/caster/tank/crafter/hybrid) before getting this stealth info.

    Are these 2 classes now added to the existing 5 that will definitely be in the game at release? Are they stretch goals? Or are they just food for thought that will be implemented (or not) at some point possibly after release?

    When a veilwalker is attacked by the veil will he be knocked out into the regular world (unstealthed)? Will AE damage spells from other classes knock veilwalkers out of stealth? Will non-stealthers be able to see veilwalkers while they are in the veil at all and be able to unstealth them?

    With the mechanic against multiple stealthers, will they basically be unable to participate in sieges or The Depths except by being unstealthed?

    With the huge map, lack of porting, no permanent keeps, and anti-grouping mechanism, it would seem that each veilwalker would spend a huge portion of his time running around to find solo enemies that are not near other veilwalkers. That doesn't sound like it would be fun for very long.

    Just ditch the veil hunter as a separate class and give archers, casters, or some other class that ability which is basically stealth lore from DAOC. Hell just give crafters the ability to create prescience nodes like in DAOC.

    Will a veilwalker have poisons? Will it dual wield? Will it be able to kill casters, healers, and crafters outside the veil?

    It sounded like veilwalkers will have a variation on climbing walls to get inside keeps. Will any other class have that?

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon
    Poll needed a "I don't know until I see it in action during beta" option. I guess I'll pick "It's ok but seems excessive" as the next closest thing.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • DanwarrDanwarr Grove City, PAPosts: 185Member
    Originally posted by Tamanous

    I posted elsewhere about this but to repeat the point I think that the fault here is in calling is stealth.

     

    This is plane walking not stealth. Planes in fantasy fiction isn't new or original, it's a popular concept in most fantasy rpgs. I'd be more happy if MJ simply said, "We won't have stealth in CU ... but we will have plane walking". He wants to add something to an mmo not really ever done before? And people are bitching about it?

    Exactly this. This is something new and people are already saying it sucks and wont work.

    I constantly see cries for innovation and people being tired of the same old thing. But suddenly, MJ and CSE announced veilwalkers and everyone says they want the old system back. I don't get it.

    Let's see what happens with internal testing and alpha. Patience people.

    Waiting: CU, WildStar, Destiny, Eternal Crusade
    Playing: ESO,DCUO
    Played: LotRO,RIFT,ToR,Warhammer, Runescape

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