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What MMOs have the best build variety compared to PoE & Diablo 3?

2

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  • SyrusSyiSyrusSyi Asheville, NCPosts: 366Member
    Diablo 3 and PoE are more like 4 man co-op games with item shops

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by SyrusSyi
    Diablo 3 and PoE are more like 4 man co-op games with item shops

    So? What does that have to do with build variety?

     

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    To make a comparison, let me do the math for Diablo 3.

    I just open up my wiz. There is a total of acitive 25 abilities (i just counted), with 5 runes in each one (not counting empty rune, since there is no reason to use it).

    There are 6 slots.

    So the number of combination is 25!/19!/6! = 177100.

    Now each of these 177100 combo, can have 5 variations in each of the slot, so now the number of possibilites

    = 177100 x 5^6 = 2767187500

    Now we have NOT count the combo of the passives yet. There are 15 passive, and you can choose 3.

    So the number of possibilites goes up to 2767187500*(15! / 12!/3!) = 1.25907e+12

    If we use 1 millionth of 1 percent as our viability estimator, we get 12591 viable builds. I highly doubt there are that many viable builds for the wizard class. My guess is that even if my knowledge is incompete, there probably aren't more than a hundred viable build, even if you count variations (like using a different passive but still mainly doing archon).

    I think this one millionth of 1% that you use is WAY off.

    Well, you're probably right about the estimator, but it's tough in the sense that there isn't any upper limit on builds determined as of yet -- as I say, people are still experimenting with and finding builds.  A good article on Massively yesterday on creating viable builds, though (not including PvP builds which folks tend to keep secret):

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/04/22/chaos-theory-perfecting-your-build-in-the-secret-world/

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    To make a comparison, let me do the math for Diablo 3.

    I just open up my wiz. There is a total of acitive 25 abilities (i just counted), with 5 runes in each one (not counting empty rune, since there is no reason to use it).

    There are 6 slots.

    So the number of combination is 25!/19!/6! = 177100.

    Now each of these 177100 combo, can have 5 variations in each of the slot, so now the number of possibilites

    = 177100 x 5^6 = 2767187500

    Now we have NOT count the combo of the passives yet. There are 15 passive, and you can choose 3.

    So the number of possibilites goes up to 2767187500*(15! / 12!/3!) = 1.25907e+12

    If we use 1 millionth of 1 percent as our viability estimator, we get 12591 viable builds. I highly doubt there are that many viable builds for the wizard class. My guess is that even if my knowledge is incompete, there probably aren't more than a hundred viable build, even if you count variations (like using a different passive but still mainly doing archon).

    I think this one millionth of 1% that you use is WAY off.

    Well, you're probably right about the estimator, but it's tough in the sense that there isn't any upper limit on builds determined as of yet -- as I say, people are still experimenting with and finding builds.  A good article on Massively yesterday on creating viable builds, though (not including PvP builds which folks tend to keep secret):

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/04/22/chaos-theory-perfecting-your-build-in-the-secret-world/

    Don't get me wrong .. TSW may as well have more viable builds than D3 eventually. We just don't know.

    In any case, TSW seems to be a good game that i have to try. In another thread, i also found that it may have good story instances. So if it has good combat (with build variety) and good story mission .. it already have two main things i am looking for in a game.

     

  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member

    Q: Is anyone still playing Diablo 3..?

     

    Honestly, is D3 even relevent anymore?

    Coincidentally, GW2 came about a year ago (I bought 2 CE) & is anybody still playing that game..?  I cannot imagine either of those games enthralling anyone after the first couple of months. Neither have staying power, both are throw away games.

    You simply do not see people going threw divorce court over Diablo3, or GuildWars2...  

     

     

     

     

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common

    its not a mmo (even tho i play it like one)

    but GW1 has build variety on steroids

     

    characters can dual class - mix and match 10 professions

    you have hundreds of skills to choose from and 4 traits (per class) to specialize in

  • BenediktBenedikt PraguePosts: 1,406Member Uncommon
    tsw, ac2, eve, ryzom, istaria ....
  • MargraveMargrave Knoxville, TNPosts: 633Member Uncommon
    The Secret World is build customization crazy.... if that's you thing....
  • YaevinduskYaevindusk Ul''dah, CAPosts: 1,537Member Uncommon

     

    Best examples that I can think of are either Guild Wars (the first) and probably The Secret World.

    Ultima Online had a system whereby all characters could get whatever they wanted, but could only master seven skills.  

    Guild Wars has thousands of skills and abilities (a good deal that just repeat the same thing under a different name, but can still be used twice as part of a build).

    The Secret world has about 250 attacks and 250 passives to be fitted into 7 active slots and 7 passive slots; the only problem there is the amount of grind it takes to unlock them all, and if you make a mistake you have to work with what you have in lower level areas to grind for more ability points to unlock something.  Though then there is another problem with it perhaps not turning out to be what you envisioned and have to start all over again (since they don't show what the abilities do other than just text as they would in say a fable game and the community has yet to release videos of each skill that I've found).

     

    Guild Wars 2 has some decent combinations if you're an elementalist and unlock your second weapon; each weapon has four sets of five abilities in addition to about 35 or so utility skills to pick from to put in five additional slots.  Aside from that gear plays a role in synergy to make certain builds useful, as well as having to spend 70 attribute points amongst five trait lines and figuring out what rune sets (for armor), what sigil sets  (weapons), gem sets (accessories) and what food will compliment your build.  In the context you've described, it has a lot more options than Diablo 3 does at least.

     

     

    When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Margrave
    The Secret World is build customization crazy.... if that's you thing....

    Yes it is. But the important part is that the customizations and variations are viable. For example, in Diablo 3, i can easily switch between storm armor shocking aspect (high dps), energy armor pinpoint (medium dps, but more protection), and energy armor prismatic (more defense).

    All three are viable depending on the situation. I actually will switch around depending on what i do (farming MP8 .. fast run .. i use SA for highest dps, if i do higher MP or boss, it will be energy armor).

    Are there similar considerations, and experimentation in TSW?

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    If you don't mind going back a few years, give Titan Quest Immortal Throne a try.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • atticusbcatticusbc Posts: 1,069Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Phelcher

    Q: Is anyone still playing Diablo 3..?

     

    Honestly, is D3 even relevent anymore?

    Coincidentally, GW2 came about a year ago (I bought 2 CE) & is anybody still playing that game..?  I cannot imagine either of those games enthralling anyone after the first couple of months. Neither have staying power, both are throw away games.

    You simply do not see people going threw divorce court over Diablo3, or GuildWars2...  

    just your opinion. i, for one, still play gw2. and given that i almost never am alone in any level zone, i'd say a vast number of other people have continued from launch as well.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by atticusbc
    Originally posted by Phelcher

    Q: Is anyone still playing Diablo 3..?

     

    Honestly, is D3 even relevent anymore?

    Coincidentally, GW2 came about a year ago (I bought 2 CE) & is anybody still playing that game..?  I cannot imagine either of those games enthralling anyone after the first couple of months. Neither have staying power, both are throw away games.

    You simply do not see people going threw divorce court over Diablo3, or GuildWars2...  

    just your opinion. i, for one, still play gw2. and given that i almost never am alone in any level zone, i'd say a vast number of other people have continued from launch as well.

    And D3 is still #10 on xfire, after so many month. It is definitely much more relevant than games like PS2, Eve, and even PoE.

    GW2 is still #5, right after WOW. So yeah .. those two games are much more relevent than almost all other MMOs, except may be WOW.

  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member
    Originally posted by atticusbc
    Originally posted by Phelcher

    Q: Is anyone still playing Diablo 3..?

     

    Honestly, is D3 even relevent anymore?

    Coincidentally, GW2 came about a year ago (I bought 2 CE) & is anybody still playing that game..?  I cannot imagine either of those games enthralling anyone after the first couple of months. Neither have staying power, both are throw away games.

    You simply do not see people going threw divorce court over Diablo3, or GuildWars2...  

    just your opinion. i, for one, still play gw2. and given that i almost never am alone in any level zone, i'd say a vast number of other people have continued from launch as well.

     

    I didn't state an opinion, I stated a fact of observation..

    Secondly, You claim to be still playing GW2..   so is there still thousands of people running around.. all over the place.. like in beta and the first few months of release..? Or have you made the logical conclusion that 90% of the players not on... & just occasionally play every now and then..?

    Don't lie to yourself...  200 people cramed all in the battlefront means the rest of the server is EMPTY...

     

     

    Secondly, are you enthralled played GuildWars2 in April of 2013..  or is it just something you do, because it available and free?

    Like I said, I bought two collector's edition boxes... me and friend played heavily. Not one of them plays anymore...     last time a loged on my friends list of over 50 people I was the only one. Game is dead except for a very small area of the game. The same area... ovr & ovr...  

     

     

     

     

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • doodphacedoodphace Vancouver, BCPosts: 1,815Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by atticusbc
    Originally posted by Phelcher

    Q: Is anyone still playing Diablo 3..?

     

    Honestly, is D3 even relevent anymore?

    Coincidentally, GW2 came about a year ago (I bought 2 CE) & is anybody still playing that game..?  I cannot imagine either of those games enthralling anyone after the first couple of months. Neither have staying power, both are throw away games.

    You simply do not see people going threw divorce court over Diablo3, or GuildWars2...  

    just your opinion. i, for one, still play gw2. and given that i almost never am alone in any level zone, i'd say a vast number of other people have continued from launch as well.

    And D3 is still #10 on xfire, after so many month. It is definitely much more relevant than games like PS2, Eve, and even PoE.

    GW2 is still #5, right after WOW. So yeah .. those two games are much more relevent than almost all other MMOs, except may be WOW.

    I like how your post tries despratly hard to imply that GW2 is close to WoW on xfire. Why even say "maybe" at the end of your post? It should say "except WoW", not "except maybe WoW" as if there is any shred of doubt. Even though GW2 is "right after", its numbers are laughably lower than WoW.

    With that said, xfire is a terrible way to measure game popularity, but if you are going to quote it, I will call you out with it.

  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member

     

    Again...   who still playes GW2?

     

    How is top selling game, that is now dropped to 5th within a years time.. succesful?  Understand, if YOU are still playing d3 or GW2, you are the minority, as most people have moved on to "other" games. That is why the game has fallen in the ranking in just a years time.

    Understand, nobody cares that there are only a few thousand players huddles in the battlefronts..   a simple observation will conclude that nearly 90% of the people who PURCHASED the game, no longer play it.

     

     

     

     

    So it is rather funny that "someone" wants to keep claiming success thru data, when in fact only after a year the game isn't on anybody's radar. So much so... that GW2 isn't growing in population.

     

    In constrast, Everquest was still growing in it's 3rd year. WoW after it's 5th year was growing...  EVE after it's 5 year was still growing. So it is extremely laughable to have "people" claim it's success, then attempt to back it up with whatever statistica he can find...  when statistica takes analysis to understand. Seems like "certain people" can read numbers, but unable to understand their meaning.

     

     

    Ask yourself... If you are still playing GuildWars2 right now... do you see yourself playing 1 year from now... everyday..?  (if not, then why you still building that same character today... it is pointless)

     

     

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • KarahandrasKarahandras Sible HedinghamPosts: 1,673Member Uncommon
    Personally haven't found anything to match anarchy online.
  • doodphacedoodphace Vancouver, BCPosts: 1,815Member
    Originally posted by Phelcher

     

    Again...   who still playes GW2?

     

    How is top selling game, that is now dropped to 5th within a years time.. succesful?  Understand, if YOU are still playing d3 or GW2, you are the minority, as most people have moved on to "other" games. That is why the game has fallen in the ranking in just a years time.

    Understand, nobody cares that there are only a few thousand players huddles in the battlefronts..   a simple observation will conclude that nearly 90% of the people who PURCHASED the game, no longer play it.

     

     

     

     

    So it is rather funny that "someone" wants to keep claiming success thru data, when in fact only after a year the game isn't on anybody's radar. So much so... that GW2 isn't growing in population.

     

    In constrast, Everquest was still growing in it's 3rd year. WoW after it's 5th year was growing...  EVE after it's 5 year was still growing. So it is extremely laughable to have "people" claim it's success, then attempt to back it up with whatever statistica he can find...  when statistica takes analysis to understand. Seems like "certain people" can read numbers, but unable to understand their meaning.

     

     

    Ask yourself... If you are still playing GuildWars2 right now... do you see yourself playing 1 year from now... everyday..?  (if not, then why you still building that same character today... it is pointless)

     

     

    I dont know about GW2, but Blizz confirmed a million uinique logins of D3 a day, and about 4 million unique a week....if that isnt "still played"...then i dont know wtf is.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by doodphace
     

    I like how your post tries despratly hard to imply that GW2 is close to WoW on xfire.

    I am not implying. I am saying. It is close. WOW = #4. GW2 = #5. Isn't that what close in ranking means?

  • doodphacedoodphace Vancouver, BCPosts: 1,815Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by doodphace
     

    I like how your post tries despratly hard to imply that GW2 is close to WoW on xfire.

    I am not implying. I am saying. It is close. WOW = #4. GW2 = #5. Isn't that what close in ranking means?

    #7-Minecraft: 7065

    #6-Dota 2: 7451

    #5-GW2: 7594

    #4-WoW: 21,300

    No...they are not close....not close at all.....

    Edit: Its also cute that everything of the post I initially quoted is gone in your reply. The post clearly stated that GW2 (And D3) are more relavant based off xfire numbers than all other MMO "except maybe WoW".....again...im pointing out that thats clearly a huge stretch....and quite frankly hlarious that you even say "maybe" when WoWs numbers are so much higher than GW2...they are literally nowhere near close, regardless of what rank they are.

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    What drives combat fun (for me at least) is different build & combat styles in a game. Diablo 3 is great on that. For example, for the wiz, aside from the two most popular builds (CM & hybrid archon), there are perm-archon, meteor (quite popular), disintegration, healing blade/blizz-melee build, the old blizz-hydra kiting build, and so on (so i have already counted 7, without counting variations, and some of the less viable ones like arcane orb). And that is just ONE class.

    I also know that PoE has many skills, and the system allows for many builds. I am not an expert in that game (yet) so i cannot name all the builds.

    So the quesiton is what MMOs have the best skill/build system design to faciliate this kind of combat style diversity? I know about the old WOW system .. which is pretty inflexible. You essentially have 3 spec & 3 play-style per class. I suppose the total 3x10 is still pretty high but I have to level up all 10 to get the variety and cannot experiement and try many different build for one class. Is the new skill system better.

    What modern MMOs have good variety of builds?

     

     

     Actually Path of Exile doesn't have that many skills. However, the customization with builds and skills is what makes the game mind boggling.

     It's quite easy to make 6-8 characters and use every skill the game has to offer for them. I believe I have every skill in the game on my hardcore characters before the release of their most recent addition to the skills list.

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by Phelcher
    GW2 isn't growing in population.

    In constrast, Everquest was still growing in it's 3rd year. WoW after it's 5th year was growing...  EVE after it's 5 year was still growing. So it is extremely laughable to have "people" claim it's success, then attempt to back it up with whatever statistica he can find..

    according to what source?

    GW2 has not been localized for China yet  -- it will grow in numbers when that happens

     

    WOW almost doubled in subs when it released to China in summer 2005

  • doodphacedoodphace Vancouver, BCPosts: 1,815Member
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Phelcher
    GW2 isn't growing in population.

    In constrast, Everquest was still growing in it's 3rd year. WoW after it's 5th year was growing...  EVE after it's 5 year was still growing. So it is extremely laughable to have "people" claim it's success, then attempt to back it up with whatever statistica he can find..

    according to what source?

    GW2 has not been localized for China yet  -- it will grow in numbers when that happens

     

    WOW almost doubled in subs when it released to China in summer 2005

    And 2005 was 1 year into WoWs launch. I believe the poster you quoted (while wrong about most of his entire post), said WoW was still growing 5 years in, which, it was, with no new terratory launches.

  • jesteralwaysjesteralways ChittagongPosts: 1,032Member Uncommon
    D3 is not an mmo, it is an online co-op game at best, i completed the game twice without opening public instance once and i am sure many hardcore people completed the game without public instancing for once. that being said i find the build system of Rift very nice and unique. you might wanna check it out.

    i want an open world, no phasing, no instancing.i want meaningful owpvp.i want player driven economy.i want meaningful crafting.i want awesome exploration, a sense of thrill.i want ow housing with a meaningful effect on my entire gameplay experience, not just some instanced crap.i want all of these free of cost, i don't wanna pay you a cent, game devs can eat grass and continue developing game for me.
    Seems like that is the current consensus of western mmo players.

  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member
    Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by doodphace
     

    I like how your post tries despratly hard to imply that GW2 is close to WoW on xfire.

    I am not implying. I am saying. It is close. WOW = #4. GW2 = #5. Isn't that what close in ranking means?

    #7-Minecraft: 7065

    #6-Dota 2: 7451

    #5-GW2: 7594

    #4-WoW: 21,300

    No...they are not close....not close at all.....

     

     

     

    Narius has to be technically right...  that is how he trollz people.

    He takes data and skews it's meaning, just to make an outlandish statement, then points to the numbers to back his skewed claim. Essentially he is in the business of misinformation.. 

     

    So don't argue his data, argue how he made such a leap, given such data. You'll find Narius is unable to base anything, except on his personalal likes.

     

    Fact is, GW2 had great sales and was a great game, but being only a B2P means it has zero future.  That glaring fact exists in nearly any non-subscription based game, because such games are based on an in-game community. Not a revolving one.

    So simply dismiss Narius posts, as he has ten thousand of them and are just eMarketing babble.

     

     

     

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

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