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Explain this idea of "Immersion" to me.

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram

    I don't have issue with convenience...but to the degree it has gone in MMORPG's, it's completely rendered them unrecognizeable. They really are just glorifed console games for the PC now.

     

    Good. Some console games (like Dishonered) are more fun, to me, than 90% of MMOs.

    This is called adapting to the market. They are much better games now. If they don't put in these kind of feautres, how can they compete with games like LoL, WoT and Diablo 3?

  • ClaudeSuamOramClaudeSuamOram Hartville, OHPosts: 122Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram

    I don't have issue with convenience...but to the degree it has gone in MMORPG's, it's completely rendered them unrecognizeable. They really are just glorifed console games for the PC now.

     

    Good. Some console games (like Dishonered) are more fun, to me, than 90% of MMOs.

    This is called adapting to the market. They are much better games now. If they don't put in these kind of feautres, how can they compete with games like LoL, WoT and Diablo 3?

    But that's what you don't seem to get. MMORPG's don't have to compete with those types of games...as they are geared toward a different market and playerbase. Unless like Blizzard....the greed factor has taken complete control rather than modest profits.

  • ClaudeSuamOramClaudeSuamOram Hartville, OHPosts: 122Member
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram
     

     /snip

    I don't have issue with convenience...but to the degree it has gone in MMORPG's, it's completely rendered them unrecognizeable. They really are just glorifed console games for the PC now.

    MMORPG's were never ending adventures. Now they are just rat races to "end game" (Again, a term that never should be in an MMORPG) for the shiney's. MMORPG's are suppose to be abotu the journey, NOT the destination. It's why they are a different type of gaming from console games. Or sadly, were anyways.

    I find it highly ironic that the 'convenience' MMOs have a longer history (7+ years) than any of those 'old-school' MMOs.

    Who's the 'old man get off my lawn' now? :P

     

    Pretty sure MMOs with 'never ending adventures' are still out there; EVE, AoW.

    /shakes head

    EQ is STILL putting out expansions and still has a moderate playerbase. It started in 1999. Do the math.

  • nate1980nate1980 Evans, GAPosts: 1,829Member

    I guess I'm one of these "old timers."

    It's really a matter of perspective and preference. People who want to be immersed in a MMORPG are looking for a virtual world to live a second life in for a part of their free time each day/week. They are that character that they're playing, and everything from scenery, artestry, fauna, critters, sounds, and weather effects matter a great deal to these people. They probably even RP or used to RP in MMORPG's. 

    It's honestly a great way to play and approach a game. It adds longevity to the game and allows you to notice the fine details of a game, instead of racing to endgame. The people who make up this community of immersive people will also be the ones who create awesome RP events. I was apart of a few in DAoC, SWG, and WoW. Good times, too bad I feel those days are mostly gone.

  • TorikTorik London, ONPosts: 2,343Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nate1980

    I guess I'm one of these "old timers."

    It's really a matter of perspective and preference. People who want to be immersed in a MMORPG are looking for a virtual world to live a second life in for a part of their free time each day/week. They are that character that they're playing, and everything from scenery, artestry, fauna, critters, sounds, and weather effects matter a great deal to these people. They probably even RP or used to RP in MMORPG's. 

    It's honestly a great way to play and approach a game. It adds longevity to the game and allows you to notice the fine details of a game, instead of racing to endgame. The people who make up this community of immersive people will also be the ones who create awesome RP events. I was apart of a few in DAoC, SWG, and WoW. Good times, too bad I feel those days are mostly gone.

    I see this as siminar to tabletop P&P RPG and LARPing.  Some people need to dress up as their characters to be really immersed but to me sittign at a kitchen table and talking about it was all I needed to get immmersed.  It probably helped that I was used to playing with minimalistic toys and thus easily filled in things through imagination alone.

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by ignore_me

    To some people immersion doesn't really exist. What they have could be better described as the ability to be pleasantly temporarily distracted. Immersion is a tough benchmark to hit, and MMOs are ill-equipped to make the attempt.

     

    I'm entirely happy with pleasant temporary distractions though, I don't want to pretend that the game world is real, it's just a game, it's something I do for fun in my spare time.  Games are not supposed to make you pretend you're living a secondary, separate life.  People who do that have something wrong with them.

    Are you referring to delusions or psychosis?

    If not, then what do you mean? What is the norm you are basing that statement upon? Keep in mind that you are posting on a website devoted to games where you manipulate fantasy stat puppets on a screen, and encounter dragons and shit.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member

    It comes down to "suspension of disbelief".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief

    Part of the issue with today's games is that they don't really offer enough to sustain any immersion of suspension of disbelief.  I first experienced true immersion in Star Wars Galaxies, and that in large part was due to the fact that it felt much more like a virtual world, than it did a game. When I put my head phones on, logged in, and started playing and getting into things with my friends, the "real world" fell away and I was completely and totally living moment to moment in Star Wars Galaxies.  People could walk into my home-office and I wouldn't even know they were there.

    in SWG, I had a home (well multupiple properties), I had a shop, combat, exploration social events, competitive events, all kinds of goals, trade, business relationships, etc.  There are many, many layers with games like Star Wars Galaxies, and once you get rolling in a gaming session, they can take over a lot of brain cycles.

    The best way I can describe this and keep it short is to say that pretty much all of my brain was occupied with the game.  This was possible for me because the entire experience of the game was very rich and didn't leave much room for thoughts of real world stuff to creep in.  I had so many goals to reach in the game, so many things to consider and do, that I was immersed. in the total experience of it.

    In today's shallow games, there are moments when my attention is siezed brifely, say in a challenging fight, which is rare, but most of the time I can play the game, watch TV, think about family, work and hobbies, etc and I never ever get that feeling of being immersed totally in the game world.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • corpusccorpusc Chattanooga, TNPosts: 1,330Member

    i don't have time to put into a "proper" message on the subject, but

     

    it's a mistake to conflate role playing with immersion.  

    they may be great buddies, and role playing probably would require some level of immersion to work.

     

     

     

    but i never roleplay, and immersion is very important to me. 

    i like being my real life self in another world.

    The End
    ---------------------------
    i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member
    Originally posted by corpusc

    i don't have time to put into a "proper" message on the subject, but

     

    it's a mistake to conflate role playing with immersion.  

    they may be great buddies, and role playing probably would require some level of immersion to work.

    but i never roleplay, and immersion is very important to me. 

    i like being my real life self in another world.

    I play like this too.  SWG was cool because you could pretty much just be yourself in that game and still basically be in RP mode following Star Wars lore.  Some people go full RP, and though I didn't do it much, I appreciated them.  They helped enhance my experience even more.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by corpusc

    i don't have time to put into a "proper" message on the subject, but

     

    it's a mistake to conflate role playing with immersion.  

    they may be great buddies, and role playing probably would require some level of immersion to work.

    but i never roleplay, and immersion is very important to me. 

    i like being my real life self in another world.

    I play like this too.  SWG was cool because you could pretty much just be yourself in that game and still basically be in RP mode following Star Wars lore.  Some people go full RP, and though I didn't do it much, I appreciated them.  They helped enhance my experience even more.

    Agreed on that.  Half the time, the image of the character is just a feeling about my toon in the world at the back of my mind as I am playing (and somtimes daydreaming about it when I am not.)  Roleplaying isn't absolutely necessary, but an immersive game almost pushes you to want to do it and certainly makes it easy to not mind if others are doing it.

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by corpusc

    i don't have time to put into a "proper" message on the subject, but

     

    it's a mistake to conflate role playing with immersion.  

    they may be great buddies, and role playing probably would require some level of immersion to work.

    but i never roleplay, and immersion is very important to me. 

    i like being my real life self in another world.

    I play like this too.  SWG was cool because you could pretty much just be yourself in that game and still basically be in RP mode following Star Wars lore.  Some people go full RP, and though I didn't do it much, I appreciated them.  They helped enhance my experience even more.

    Agreed on that.  Half the time, the image of the character is just a feeling about my chacter in the world at the back of my mind as I am playing (and someones daydreaming about it when I am not.)  Roleplaying isn't absolutely necessary, but an immersive game almost pushes you to want to do it and certainly makes it easy to not mind if others are doing it.

    One of the coolest experiences I had was when I joined a Jedi guild in SWG, and they made me come to their temple (a decked-out guild hall) for my initiation process.  They called in their lead players from all over the game (multiple planets) to assemble a counsel, ask me questions about my goals as a jedi, and why I wanted to join their guild, and then they made me fight one of their higher level members to see if I had any skill.  It was an awesome experience that took about an hour.

    When I was done I took the time to thikn about what had just happened.  I had a full-on Star Wars moment that was completely created by other players.  They took the time to stop what they were doing to initiate me, and they probably loved it as much or more than I did.

    THAT my friends, is one of the MANY stark differences between a game that gives you the tools to forge your own story in a deep game world, and one that stuffs someone else's story, class, etc down your throat for you.   I'll take the former any time over the latter. 

    That's just one example too. During the years (yes, years) that I played SWG, I had many such experiences that were completely player created and driven.  Man do I miss having a game like that.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram

    I don't have issue with convenience...but to the degree it has gone in MMORPG's, it's completely rendered them unrecognizeable. They really are just glorifed console games for the PC now.

     

    Good. Some console games (like Dishonered) are more fun, to me, than 90% of MMOs.

    This is called adapting to the market. They are much better games now. If they don't put in these kind of feautres, how can they compete with games like LoL, WoT and Diablo 3?

    But that's what you don't seem to get. MMORPG's don't have to compete with those types of games...as they are geared toward a different market and playerbase. Unless like Blizzard....the greed factor has taken complete control rather than modest profits.

    They don't have to .. but they want to. Otherwise, why do you think we are here talking? If MMORPG is not trying to get my business by putting in many of those features, do you think i would give a d*mn and post here?

    Face it, many MMORPG devs would LOVE to have the FPS players, the RPG players, the casual players. You can call it greed, business sense, or whatever. If they don't make MMORPGs into better games, i wouldn't even be here.

    So if you do not enjoy seeing opposite opinions from me, you can blame the MMO devs too.

    BTW, Blizz is very successful in mergine the markets. Do you know how many WOW players play Diablo3?

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram

    I don't have issue with convenience...but to the degree it has gone in MMORPG's, it's completely rendered them unrecognizeable. They really are just glorifed console games for the PC now.

    Good. Some console games (like Dishonered) are more fun, to me, than 90% of MMOs.

    This is called adapting to the market. They are much better games now. If they don't put in these kind of feautres, how can they compete with games like LoL, WoT and Diablo 3?

    But that's what you don't seem to get. MMORPG's don't have to compete with those types of games...as they are geared toward a different market and playerbase. Unless like Blizzard....the greed factor has taken complete control rather than modest profits.

    They don't have to .. but they want to. Otherwise, why do you think we are here talking? If MMORPG is not trying to get my business by putting in many of those features, do you think i would give a d*mn and post here?

    Face it, many MMORPG devs would LOVE to have the FPS players, the RPG players, the casual players. You can call it greed, business sense, or whatever. If they don't make MMORPGs into better games, i wouldn't even be here.

    So if you do not enjoy seeing opposite opinions from me, you can blame the MMO devs too.

    BTW, Blizz is very successful in mergine the markets. Do you know how many WOW players play Diablo3?

    Actually.. they kinda do. The gaming industry is extremely saturated atm (both with MMOs and various other types of games). Furthermore the amount of multiplayer games has increased substancially over the years. The way MMOs work they NEED a big playerbase to survive. Otherwise the games feel dead/ lifeless, or are varying degrees of unplayable.

    Basically what's happening is the lines between MMOs and other games is being blurred. They're slowly becoming the same thing. The problem this creates is with those that view MMOs as virtual worlds only. While virtual worlds can be pretty awesome, they also generally have to sacrifice a lot in terms of gameplay to be like that. Essentially the closer a game gets to a virutal world, the more it becomes like real life, which often translates into less fun.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by aesperus

    Basically what's happening is the lines between MMOs and other games is being blurred. They're slowly becoming the same thing. The problem this creates is with those that view MMOs as virtual worlds only. While virtual worlds can be pretty awesome, they also generally have to sacrifice a lot in terms of gameplay to be like that. Essentially the closer a game gets to a virutal world, the more it becomes like real life, which often translates into less fun.

    Yeah .. very keen observations. Diablo 3 has MMO elements. PoE has MMO elements. Many MMOs have SP or online game elements. Many online games like LoL, and WOT are pulling the e-sport players from MMOs.

    And MMOs are expensive to make, they really need to compete better with other more focused games.

  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member

    No wonder certain people don't get immersion...   they keep playing MMOs. Matter-of-fact... they can't stop talking about non-immersive games & how much they like them....

    To bad they are in a MMORPG forum and not an arcade forum. 

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,757Member Uncommon

    You can't expect a MMO to compete with an arcade game in its niche area. Those games and MMO's will be better than a more general MMO at what they do best.

    An example of such a poor design decision was the Space Flight missions in SWTOR. No way could they live up to what an arcade style space shooter has to offer. A cheap as chips Elite style trading and space flight would have been better.

    Why? Because there is no Elite style trading game out there. There is no genre of games to compete against. But EA went the easy route and paid the price.

    MMO's have to be built solidly in the areas they are best at. Questing, Crafting, Housing, Faction PvP, Community and the like.

  • SulaaSulaa nPosts: 1,151Member Common

    "Immersion" is a word that descibe how well game can 'pull player in' to temporary forget that's he/she is playing a game.  It's concept that is connected to, but separate from 'escapism'.

    Of course there is diffrence in this matter between certain player 'groups'. 

    1. Some players are unable to get immersed in any game and (or) they don't care or don't even want to get immersed in first place.

    2. Some other players are immersed by goofyness and sillysness. So things like, (but not limited to) slapstick comedy elements or 'out of place' funny elements may actually immerse them.

    3. Some other players are immersed by cinematic presentation.  So things like, (but not limited to) cutscenes immerse them.

    4. Some other players are immersed by 'beliavibility and coherence' of the game. So things like, (but not limited to) seamlessness or no-real world elements / influences in game immerse them.

     

     

    Creating an immersive game for all group of players is impossible, because some elements that may immerse one group of players - may break immersion for other group of players.   So it's important to assert who's main target of the game, instead of trying to appease everyone, because that won't work anymore.  That's of course just licking the surface and this topic is quite complicated.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Scot

    You can't expect a MMO to compete with an arcade game in its niche area. Those games and MMO's will be better than a more general MMO at what they do best.

    An example of such a poor design decision was the Space Flight missions in SWTOR. No way could they live up to what an arcade style space shooter has to offer. A cheap as chips Elite style trading and space flight would have been better.

    Why? Because there is no Elite style trading game out there. There is no genre of games to compete against. But EA went the easy route and paid the price.

    MMO's have to be built solidly in the areas they are best at. Questing, Crafting, Housing, Faction PvP, Community and the like.

    Of course you can. You don't have to be the best to get some business. Look at FPSes for an example. Bioshock Infinite is probably the best, or one of the best. You don't have to beat it to make money.

    Take STO. Is it better than Bioshock Infinite as a SP game? Probably not. However, it is the ONLY Star Trek based RPG out there. Why shouldn't it do some SP missions? In that segment of market, it is the best.

    BTW, MMO is NOT the best in questing, pvp nor community. There are plenty of other online games that are better. Heck, how can MMO the best at pvp when there are pvp centric online games? You argument of specialization applies here too.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,757Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

    You can't expect a MMO to compete with an arcade game in its niche area. Those games and MMO's will be better than a more general MMO at what they do best.

    An example of such a poor design decision was the Space Flight missions in SWTOR. No way could they live up to what an arcade style space shooter has to offer. A cheap as chips Elite style trading and space flight would have been better.

    Why? Because there is no Elite style trading game out there. There is no genre of games to compete against. But EA went the easy route and paid the price.

    MMO's have to be built solidly in the areas they are best at. Questing, Crafting, Housing, Faction PvP, Community and the like.

    Of course you can. You don't have to be the best to get some business. Look at FPSes for an example. Bioshock Infinite is probably the best, or one of the best. You don't have to beat it to make money.

    Take STO. Is it better than Bioshock Infinite as a SP game? Probably not. However, it is the ONLY Star Trek based RPG out there. Why shouldn't it do some SP missions? In that segment of market, it is the best.

    BTW, MMO is NOT the best in questing, pvp nor community. There are plenty of other online games that are better. Heck, how can MMO the best at pvp when there are pvp centric online games? You argument of specialization applies here too.

    There is an element of what’s in the mix. MMO’s can have that unique mix that makes them stand out from other online games.

    I have never played a solo rpg that had better questing than the first twenty levels of AoC, the Fellowship quests of Lotro or the Class quests of SWTOR. MMO’s are up there with the best any other game has in questing.

    I have never played PvP better than DAOC. In their own way other games have great faction PvP such as PS2. But this is a different type of PvP. Indeed PS2 is essentially a stepping stone between Battlefield style PvP and MMO faction based PvP.

    Again with community, MMO’s are up there with the best or are the best.

    Those are three of MMO’s great strengths that can make them better than any other type of online game out there. What you are suggesting is spending significant development time on making a different kind of MMO. One which caters for those who like Diablo and the like. These markets are cornered by those existing games, competing there would be a struggle at best. And it would change the nature of MMO’s, to their detriment.

    Why would we want Diablo style play in our MMO’s? We have other games for that. I am arguing once again for games with distinct gameplay, you seem to want everything to be Diabloesque.

    I would not go onto the Diablo and PoE forums and argue for more MMO like play in those games. Games need to do what they do best, not have half baked elements in them just to try to appeal to every player.

    The problem with putting games within MMO’s is that they detract the devs time from why we joined the game in the first place.

  • GroovyFlowerGroovyFlower RdamPosts: 1,245Member
    Originally posted by Sunshinee

    Maybe this is the same old thread, just written differently but I know a lot of you old timers on here love to talk how certain features in a game "break your immersion".

    I've in the past have been in beta's and lobbied for group finder tools if they weren't present, flying mounts, instant teleports to dungeons etc etc the tools that make the game possibly more accessible, and weren't wasting your time in general.

    Now I've been playing MMO's since pre cu swg. I played WoW before all the tools were available, and I embraced all the tools I've mentioned plus alot more that had come into existence in WoW and other mmo's.

    I guess where I question people is at the point where I hear the argument that these break "immersion". I get how these things can be Anti social, but let's be serious with every supposed anti social tool you guys think exist, in any real triple AAA mmo that falls on each individual itself as to whether they want to be social or not. People have a wide variety of experiences with those tools like LFG tools and found plenty of people to be social using them, and vice versa.

    So when I hear Immersion breaking as an argument I'm left confused. Are these individuals pretending that they are their own actual characters they see on screen and want to be "immersed" in this feeling of being in this great giant world fighting these evil beast as this mighty conquering hero?

    This is a serious question I've wondered, when I've gamed I don't do any of this imagining. Granted this whole thing might just be predicated on each indivuals playstyle.I'm mostly competitive and the type of person who likes to be on the top so I play a game to play a game. Not to feel like I myself am in this pretend virtual world. On top of that in a mmo, there is thousands of other supposed "heroes" running around killing the same mobs as you are. I just have a very hard time seeing it.

    Either way I'm curious to understand this side of the argument and or if I am possibly way off base and nobody does this? Either way, thoughts?

     

    Example i loved Morrowind becouse it had very limited instant travel most of the time you had to walk/run around world exploring.

    Then came Oblivion with instant travel to almost every part on map if you had discovered it all same in Skyrim i still dont like it for me its immersion breaker i walk/run most in skyrim barely use instant travel.

    Yes its a timesink if you have to walk everything so be it then i just dont like the rediculous instant travel.

    Im very keen on immersion i only implement mods in skyrim if it improve immersion like better sounds and better graphics also if its buildings or items it have to be in line with game i never take mods that has nothing to do with skyrim or so called improved looks of characters(supermodels those disguts me aweful) so mainly the ezmode implementations i HATE breakes immersion for me.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,901Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by corpusc

    i don't have time to put into a "proper" message on the subject, but

     

    it's a mistake to conflate role playing with immersion.  

    they may be great buddies, and role playing probably would require some level of immersion to work.

    but i never roleplay, and immersion is very important to me. 

    i like being my real life self in another world.

    I play like this too.  SWG was cool because you could pretty much just be yourself in that game and still basically be in RP mode following Star Wars lore.  Some people go full RP, and though I didn't do it much, I appreciated them.  They helped enhance my experience even more.

    Agreed on that.  Half the time, the image of the character is just a feeling about my chacter in the world at the back of my mind as I am playing (and someones daydreaming about it when I am not.)  Roleplaying isn't absolutely necessary, but an immersive game almost pushes you to want to do it and certainly makes it easy to not mind if others are doing it.

    One of the coolest experiences I had was when I joined a Jedi guild in SWG, and they made me come to their temple (a decked-out guild hall) for my initiation process.  They called in their lead players from all over the game (multiple planets) to assemble a counsel, ask me questions about my goals as a jedi, and why I wanted to join their guild, and then they made me fight one of their higher level members to see if I had any skill.  It was an awesome experience that took about an hour.

    When I was done I took the time to thikn about what had just happened.  I had a full-on Star Wars moment that was completely created by other players.  They took the time to stop what they were doing to initiate me, and they probably loved it as much or more than I did.

    THAT my friends, is one of the MANY stark differences between a game that gives you the tools to forge your own story in a deep game world, and one that stuffs someone else's story, class, etc down your throat for you.   I'll take the former any time over the latter. 

    That's just one example too. During the years (yes, years) that I played SWG, I had many such experiences that were completely player created and driven.  Man do I miss having a game like that.

    Heh, I still remember the guild meetings that played out like pre-battle star wars briefings my guild did in SWG, those were the days.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • ClaudeSuamOramClaudeSuamOram Hartville, OHPosts: 122Member
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

    You can't expect a MMO to compete with an arcade game in its niche area. Those games and MMO's will be better than a more general MMO at what they do best.

    An example of such a poor design decision was the Space Flight missions in SWTOR. No way could they live up to what an arcade style space shooter has to offer. A cheap as chips Elite style trading and space flight would have been better.

    Why? Because there is no Elite style trading game out there. There is no genre of games to compete against. But EA went the easy route and paid the price.

    MMO's have to be built solidly in the areas they are best at. Questing, Crafting, Housing, Faction PvP, Community and the like.

    Of course you can. You don't have to be the best to get some business. Look at FPSes for an example. Bioshock Infinite is probably the best, or one of the best. You don't have to beat it to make money.

    Take STO. Is it better than Bioshock Infinite as a SP game? Probably not. However, it is the ONLY Star Trek based RPG out there. Why shouldn't it do some SP missions? In that segment of market, it is the best.

    BTW, MMO is NOT the best in questing, pvp nor community. There are plenty of other online games that are better. Heck, how can MMO the best at pvp when there are pvp centric online games? You argument of specialization applies here too.

    There is an element of what’s in the mix. MMO’s can have that unique mix that makes them stand out from other online games.

    I have never played a solo rpg that had better questing than the first twenty levels of AoC, the Fellowship quests of Lotro or the Class quests of SWTOR. MMO’s are up there with the best any other game has in questing.

    I have never played PvP better than DAOC. In their own way other games have great faction PvP such as PS2. But this is a different type of PvP. Indeed PS2 is essentially a stepping stone between Battlefield style PvP and MMO faction based PvP.

    Again with community, MMO’s are up there with the best or are the best.

    Those are three of MMO’s great strengths that can make them better than any other type of online game out there. What you are suggesting is spending significant development time on making a different kind of MMO. One which caters for those who like Diablo and the like. These markets are cornered by those existing games, competing there would be a struggle at best. And it would change the nature of MMO’s, to their detriment.

    Why would we want Diablo style play in our MMO’s? We have other games for that. I am arguing once again for games with distinct gameplay, you seem to want everything to be Diabloesque.

    I would not go onto the Diablo and PoE forums and argue for more MMO like play in those games. Games need to do what they do best, not have half baked elements in them just to try to appeal to every player.

    The problem with putting games within MMO’s is that they detract the devs time from why we joined the game in the first place.

    Exactly...and what I have been trying to get through certain people's exremely thick skulls here for quite some time. You are just going to give yourself carpel tunnel trying to do the same.

    No one seems to care about genre's (Categories) anymore. Just make them all the same thing. Fast paced, reward heavily laden, I'm the hero, race to end game, heavily instanced treadmills.

    I am not saying these types can't exist, but do they ALL have to be this way? Also, I am not saying they have to be exactly like the older ones, as their are plenty of issues from them that have been improved upon. But...it would be GREAT to see an MMORPG surface again that focuses on what made them different.

    Community, meaningful questing (Epic chain quests), meaningful and useful crafting, world exploration, the journey and NOT the destination, and robust content.

     

  • Mors.MagneMors.Magne LondonPosts: 1,420Member
    Originally posted by Consuetudo

    An immersive world is one in which the feeling that a game is being played is kept to a minimum. That circumstance wherein the entire game revolves around combat, the player being a hero, bosses, and the typical mechanic, effectually distances the player from the world, and he becomes conscious that he is playing another game. On the contrary, supply him with bustling cities, amazing works of architecture, innovative quest sequences, a working economy, a dynamic crafting system, and the environment in general in which he can function of a citizen of that world, and he will very much find himself at times forgetting that he is playing a game, and so much sympathize with his character that he will ensure that the character sleeps on a bed every time he logs out. 

    The immersive world is really escapism. It is the living through another, and any element in which the notion of a game retains too much significance will only function as a detraction from this immersive ability. 

    As another thread states, we want worlds, in comparison to games. The single player RPG can function as a game all it likes, but when throwing together a bunch of persons in the midst of a common experience, a massive multiplayer world, as it were, then the only goal therein is the provision of such a world. Not a game. 

    This is a brilliant and perceptive definition.

    10 / 10.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Scot

    I have never played a solo rpg that had better questing than the first twenty levels of AoC, the Fellowship quests of Lotro or the Class quests of SWTOR. MMO’s are up there with the best any other game has in questing.

    That is just your opinion. I would say Bioshock (pick any) is better questing than any of the games you mentioned. Heck, TOR quests are just people standing around talking .. KOTOR are much better.

    I have never played PvP better than DAOC. In their own way other games have great faction PvP such as PS2. But this is a different type of PvP. Indeed PS2 is essentially a stepping stone between Battlefield style PvP and MMO faction based PvP.

    Once again, it is your opinion. If i want to play pvp, i would much rather play WOT.

    Again with community, MMO’s are up there with the best or are the best.

    Nah .. i have as good a chat in MSN as in any MMO .. heck, it is just about the people i talk to. The game is irrevelant.

    Those are three of MMO’s great strengths that can make them better than any other type of online game out there. What you are suggesting is spending significant development time on making a different kind of MMO. One which caters for those who like Diablo and the like. These markets are cornered by those existing games, competing there would be a struggle at best. And it would change the nature of MMO’s, to their detriment.

    Changing the nature of MMO .. may not be a bad things, given some of the ideas (like force grouping, or down-time for chatting) are proven failture in the market place.

    Why would we want Diablo style play in our MMO’s? We have other games for that. I am arguing once again for games with distinct gameplay, you seem to want everything to be Diabloesque.

    Who says we only want Diablo style play in MMOs? There are plenty of other options. STO type SP missions. More instanced gameplay. Pokemon battles. Put in what players like. Even try MMO FPS .. and plenty are trying.

    I would not go onto the Diablo and PoE forums and argue for more MMO like play in those games. Games need to do what they do best, not have half baked elements in them just to try to appeal to every player.

    Why not? If it adds to the fun? I think PoE can use a AH .. a very much MMO feature.

    The problem with putting games within MMO’s is that they detract the devs time from why we joined the game in the first place.

    Why do people enjoy games? That is the question you need to ask. Genre boundary is just limitations. Devs should be innvoative and consider everything fun.

     

  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram

    I don't have issue with convenience...but to the degree it has gone in MMORPG's, it's completely rendered them unrecognizeable. They really are just glorifed console games for the PC now.

     

    Good. Some console games (like Dishonered) are more fun, to me, than 90% of MMOs.

    This is called adapting to the market. They are much better games now. If they don't put in these kind of feautres, how can they compete with games like LoL, WoT and Diablo 3?

    But that's what you don't seem to get. MMORPG's don't have to compete with those types of games...as they are geared toward a different market and playerbase. Unless like Blizzard....the greed factor has taken complete control rather than modest profits.

    They don't have to .. but they want to. Otherwise, why do you think we are here talking? If MMORPG is not trying to get my business by putting in many of those features, do you think i would give a d*mn and post here?

    Face it, many MMORPG devs would LOVE to have the FPS players, the RPG players, the casual players. You can call it greed, business sense, or whatever. If they don't make MMORPGs into better games, i wouldn't even be here.

    So if you do not enjoy seeing opposite opinions from me, you can blame the MMO devs too.

    BTW, Blizz is very successful in mergine the markets. Do you know how many WOW players play Diablo3?

     

     

    Lets face it... Hot Dog stands, would love to have the Hamburger's business too... but unfortunately people don't buy Hamburgers, when they have a tase for a Hot Dog. (vice-versa)

     

    So stop with the diatribe that every mmo has to be a "one game fits all" scenario.  Those exists to day and are doing succeful enough. We here are talking about a further niche of less than 3 million, or so.. whome enjoy and want to play MMORPGs.

     

    [mod edit]

     

     

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

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