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CU: The Niche MMO that is trying to kickstart on a Triple-A budget

ZedTheRockZedTheRock Florence, KYPosts: 172Member

SO been thinking of this for a while now.  MJ has consistently said Camelot Unchained is a niche MMO being developed for a niche crowd.  Now this is all fine and all but as we approach the end of the Kickstarter campaign we are seeing more complaining amongst its very vocal fanbase, bordering on obsessive fanboi'ism even.  Time and time again any dectractor to the game is disparraged for questioning the authority of MJ or any design decision with "this is a Niche game with a niche playerbase".  To which It finally dawned on me the other day, if this is a niche game, why did they try to fund at such a high level.

 

This is jsut further proof that the people behind this KS'er have no understanding of the demographics of the MMO'verse, trying to Kickstart a niche MMO on a Triple-A budget.  Here's a hint next time know your base and know your limitations, Star Citizen and Shadowrun were successfuly Kickstarted because they monetary goals matched their outlook, CU's Goals are unrealistic.

SUP

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Comments

  • ZiftylrhavicZiftylrhavic GrenoblePosts: 222Member
    Originally posted by ZedTheRock

    SO been thinking of this for a while now.  MJ has consistently said Camelot Unchained is a niche MMO being developed for a niche crowd.  Now this is all fine and all but as we approach the end of the Kickstarter campaign we are seeing more complaining amongst its very vocal fanbase, bordering on obsessive fanboi'ism even.  Time and time again any dectractor to the game is disparraged for questioning the authority of MJ or any design decision with "this is a Niche game with a niche playerbase".  To which It finally dawned on me the other day, if this is a niche game, why did they try to fund at such a high level.

     

    This is jsut further proof that the people behind this KS'er have no understanding of the demographics of the MMO'verse, trying to Kickstart a niche MMO on a Triple-A budget.  Here's a hint next time know your base and know your limitations, Star Citizen and Shadowrun were successfuly Kickstarted because they monetary goals matched their outlook, CU's Goals are unrealistic.

    Doesn't a triple A MMO need over $50M to fund? $5M doesn't seems any close to that to me.

     

    On another note, can i come and laugh at you if the KS does fund? :)

  • Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Highland Heights, KYPosts: 405Member

    The amount of trolling traffic far out weighs that of the vocal fanbase.  The CU community was very active on these forums until moderation became questionable and the trolls consistently roamed freely.  Granted, some of the "fanbois" were equally as aggressive back to the attention whoring posters that visited.  Most of us got tired of the crap that went on here and relocated.

    Nonetheless, $5 million to develop a game that will would have 30k-70k+ subscribers is not a higher request margin.  It's extremely low for the overhead during development.

    My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

    image

  • collektcollekt Meridian, MSPosts: 274Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ZedTheRock

    This is jsut further proof that the people behind this KS'er have no understanding of the demographics of the MMO'verse, trying to Kickstart a niche MMO on a Triple-A budget.  Here's a hint next time know your base and know your limitations, Star Citizen and Shadowrun were successfuly Kickstarted because they monetary goals matched their outlook, CU's Goals are unrealistic.

    Trying to say they don't know anything about the MMO'verse while you personally claim that $5M is a Triple-A budget. Oh irony, how I love thee. 

  • GhavriggGhavrigg Halifax, NSPosts: 777Member Uncommon

    So, OP, how many MMO's/games exactly have you created to acquire this knowledge of cost efficiency? I assume you must be more experienced with game design and development finances than MJ, since you're saying he has no clue.

    $2 million isn't exactly a lot of money for development in this genre.

     

  • UOloverUOlover Mullica Hill, NJPosts: 327Member Uncommon

    It's only niche for the funding. On release day there will be the usual zerg of players because quite frankly people are desparate for anything new.

    and everquest next, that's a triple-A budget game

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon

    This takes the prize for weirdest complaint I've seen. Since when is $2 million a AAA budget? AAA MMOs such as SWTOR and GW 2 were developed for 10s of millions of dollars perhaps even 100s of millions depending on who you believe. CSE is taking all sorts of short cuts due to the small funding level they will have. You can see this in the number of classes and races, lack of pet classes, lack of PvE, and many other aspects of the design.

    Could the Kickstarter have been done differently, focused more tightly on its core niche, and gone for a smaller initial goal of $1 - 1.5 million with some aspects of the current basic design becoming stretch goals? Yes I strongly think so. Still it's not remotely a AAA MMO even at its current $2 million goal.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • TumblebutzTumblebutz Henderson, NVPosts: 322Member
    Originally posted by meddyck

    This takes the prize for weirdest complaint I've seen. Since when is $2 million a AAA budget? AAA MMOs such as SWTOR and GW 2 were developed for 10s of millions of dollars perhaps even 100s of millions depending on who you believe. CSE is taking all sorts of short cuts due to the small funding level they will have. You can see this in the number of classes and races, lack of pet classes, lack of PvE, and many other aspects of the design.

    Could the Kickstarter have been done differently, focused more tightly on its core niche, and gone for a smaller initial goal of $1 - 1.5 million with some aspects of the current basic design becoming stretch goals? Yes I strongly think so. Still it's not remotely a AAA MMO even at its current $2 million goal.

    This.  and IBTL!

    Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

    RED IS DEAD!

  • RictisRictis UnknownPosts: 1,231Member Uncommon
    You can make a game relatively easily, anyone can do it. You simply write down an idea that seems like it could be fun and then use your resources to produce it. MMO's that are massive require a lot of money and man power to be maintained. Whether this is niche or not they will need more than 5 million to launch and sustain this. That is of course if everything goes their way and they don't run into any problems.
  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Like others started, this is not a AAA budget, which these days seem to range from 50-200+ M

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Lol at triple a budget
  • belatucadrosbelatucadros Toronto, ONPosts: 263Member

    A++ would be trolled by again

     

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  • JasonJJasonJ New Port Richey, FLPosts: 395Member
    As much as I dont like DaoC and DaoC clone wanna'be games....not even I would go so far as to try to say 2 million is AAA budget...heck, 2 million isnt even B budget.
  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon

    Agree with the o.p. $2 mil is too high. Doubt they will make it. Anyone claiming $50 mil+ are AAA budgets, that sounds silly to me. WoW cost $20mil. EQ cost (guessing here) $10 mil. Vanguard was abandoned by Microsoft as being too expensive at the $15 mil mark. And Vanguard was a massive, ambitious game with evolutionary changes in UI and gameplay. Too bad it had more issues than Time magazine, not the least of which was the terrible WoWification it underwent right before launch.

    So I would argue that AAA budgets should be around $20 mil.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
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  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

    Trying, it already hit 1 mill ages ago. 2mill gets us the Depths, but even if we dont the Depths will be an Xpac somewhere down the road I assume.

  • JasonJJasonJ New Port Richey, FLPosts: 395Member
    Originally posted by Tierless

    Trying, it already hit 1 mill ages ago. 2mill gets us the Depths, but even if we dont the Depths will be an Xpac somewhere down the road I assume.

    Nope, the kickstarter clearly states "This project will only be funded if at least $2,000,000 is pledged by Thursday May 2, 11:56am EDT."

  • fantasyfreak112fantasyfreak112 Orange County, CAPosts: 499Member
    Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

    The amount of trolling traffic far out weighs that of the vocal fanbase.  The CU community was very active on these forums until moderation became questionable and the trolls consistently roamed freely.  Granted, some of the "fanbois" were equally as aggressive back to the attention whoring posters that visited.  Most of us got tired of the crap that went on here and relocated.

    Nonetheless, $5 million to develop a game that will would have 30k-70k+ subscribers is not a higher request margin.  It's extremely low for the overhead during development.

    Negative opinions of CU and Mark Jacobs does not equal trolling. Sorry to destroy your world.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Arclan

    Agree with the o.p. $2 mil is too high. Doubt they will make it. Anyone claiming $50 mil+ are AAA budgets, that sounds silly to me. WoW cost $20mil. EQ cost (guessing here) $10 mil. Vanguard was abandoned by Microsoft as being too expensive at the $15 mil mark. And Vanguard was a massive, ambitious game with evolutionary changes in UI and gameplay. Too bad it had more issues than Time magazine, not the least of which was the terrible WoWification it underwent right before launch.

    So I would argue that AAA budgets should be around $20 mil.

    You are guessing, believe I saw estimates pegging WOW at between 50-75M, and some newer titles are reported to be in the 100M-200 M range.

    Rarely do companies release this specific info.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by JasonJ
    Originally posted by Tierless Trying, it already hit 1 mill ages ago. 2mill gets us the Depths, but even if we dont the Depths will be an Xpac somewhere down the road I assume.
    Nope, the kickstarter clearly states "This project will only be funded if at least $2,000,000 is pledged by Thursday May 2, 11:56am EDT."

    I wish I knew that BEFORE I got the CU logo tattoo...I guess I'll just tell people I'm Norsk so it represents my ancestry...

  • TuktzTuktz Atlanta, GAPosts: 299Member

    You think 2 M is triple AAA budget? hahahahaha

     

    Thanks I couldn't have had a better chuckle at the end of my day =)

    image
    MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOC
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  • TealaTeala SomewherePosts: 7,430Member Uncommon

    The problem with CU is, and it really is simple, is that it brings nothing new to the table.   It is regurgitating what has all ready been chewed up and eaten a half a dozen times.    Go back and look at the games that have come before recently - in fact lets go back to DAoC.  Now move forward.   MMO's that have released that are like CU.    We have WoW.  We have Warhammer.  We have Aion.  We have GW2.   We have Rift.   We have SWTOR.  We have PS2.    Soon we'll have TES Online.   Most of these games revolve around PvP/faction vs faction, some are 2 faction based games(Aion - WoW) and others are three factions fighting it out for control.   Do we really need another game dedicated to this?  Especially one that has little PvE and is all about faction warfare and territorial control?(Just play PS2 if that is what you are looking for).

    Look I love new games being made...what I dislike is that this genre has been driven into the ground by lackluster games and especially games that do nothing new.   CU is just a lesser version of DAoC.   Why do we need that?

     

     

    image
  • DocmanduDocmandu AntwerpPosts: 60Member Common

    Linky for the OP: http://hitboxteam.com/dustforce-sales-figures

     

    and that's just a small indie game.

     

  • TuktzTuktz Atlanta, GAPosts: 299Member
    Originally posted by Teala

    The problem with CU is, and it really is simple, is that it brings nothing new to the table.   It is regurgitating what has all ready been chewed up and eaten a half a dozen times.    Go back and look at the games that have come before recently - in fact lets go back to DAoC.  Now move forward.   MMO's that have released that are like CU.    We have WoW.  We have Warhammer.  We have Aion.  We have GW2.   We have Rift.   We have SWTOR.  We have PS2.    Soon we'll have TES Online.   Most of these games revolve around PvP/faction vs faction, some are 2 faction based games(Aion - WoW) and others are three factions fighting it out for control.   Do we really need another game dedicated to this?  Especially one that has little PvE and is all about faction warfare and territorial control?(Just play PS2 if that is what you are looking for).

    Look I love new games being made...what I dislike is that this genre has been driven into the ground by lackluster games and especially games that do nothing new.   CU is just a lesser version of DAoC.   Why do we need that?

     

     

     

    I've literally played all of those games, and CU is nothing like them.

     

    Sure every mmo has elements of others, with some new/innovate elements

     

    It's all about philosophy and implementation that make a mmo great or not.

     

    Really your post smelled of not understanding everything MJ's been talking about.

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    MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOC
    Tuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/

  • HjamnrHjamnr Madison, WIPosts: 163Member
    Originally posted by Teala

    The problem with CU is, and it really is simple, is that it brings nothing new to the table.   It is regurgitating what has all ready been chewed up and eaten a half a dozen times.    Go back and look at the games that have come before recently - in fact lets go back to DAoC.  Now move forward.   MMO's that have released that are like CU.    We have WoW.  We have Warhammer.  We have Aion.  We have GW2.   We have Rift.   We have SWTOR.  We have PS2.    Soon we'll have TES Online.   Most of these games revolve around PvP/faction vs faction, some are 2 faction based games(Aion - WoW) and others are three factions fighting it out for control.   Do we really need another game dedicated to this?  Especially one that has little PvE and is all about faction warfare and territorial control?(Just play PS2 if that is what you are looking for).

    Look I love new games being made...what I dislike is that this genre has been driven into the ground by lackluster games and especially games that do nothing new.   CU is just a lesser version of DAoC.   Why do we need that?

     

     

    So much fail, in this post.

    WoW - no

    Warhammer - Some similarities but not really that close, and poorly executed by EA/GW

    Rift -  You're kidding, right?

    GW2 - All instanced, queues, combat area resets and your opponents change every 2 weeks.  Bleah

    Aion - Again... are you kidding?

    PS2 - Can't believe you even included this online FPS

    TES - Again, all instanced crap. 

    You obviously don't comprehend what "RvR" actually is, and think it compares, in any way, to the FFA or arena BS the games you mentioned contain.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Hjamnr
    Originally posted by Teala

    The problem with CU is, and it really is simple, is that it brings nothing new to the table.   It is regurgitating what has all ready been chewed up and eaten a half a dozen times.    Go back and look at the games that have come before recently - in fact lets go back to DAoC.  Now move forward.   MMO's that have released that are like CU.    We have WoW.  We have Warhammer.  We have Aion.  We have GW2.   We have Rift.   We have SWTOR.  We have PS2.    Soon we'll have TES Online.   Most of these games revolve around PvP/faction vs faction, some are 2 faction based games(Aion - WoW) and others are three factions fighting it out for control.   Do we really need another game dedicated to this?  Especially one that has little PvE and is all about faction warfare and territorial control?(Just play PS2 if that is what you are looking for).

    Look I love new games being made...what I dislike is that this genre has been driven into the ground by lackluster games and especially games that do nothing new.   CU is just a lesser version of DAoC.   Why do we need that?

     

     

    So much fail, in this post.

    WoW - no

    WHY NOT? - just saying no says nothing about what you like or dislike

    Warhammer - Some similarities but not really that close, and poorly executed by EA/GW

    Rift -  You're kidding, right?

    Rift is a decent game. I did get bored with it but I played it quite a bit - so call it burn out.

    GW2 - All instanced, queues, combat area resets and your opponents change every 2 weeks.  Bleah

    As far as GW2 - the dungeons are instance and the PvP area is in the Mists (it is part of the map BTW, not really instanced) - So you do not know what you are talking about

    Aion - Again... are you kidding?

    PS2 - Can't believe you even included this online FPS

    TES - Again, all instanced crap. 

    You obviously don't comprehend what "RvR" actually is, and think it compares, in any way, to the FFA or arena BS the games you mentioned contain.

    You know, we get you  are a CU junkie, but the game isn't even out or coded yet. All they have given is platitudes, like the GW2 philosophy page and they got nuked for it. Since nothing of the game is developed yet, that is all MJ has given and it can change.  

     

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
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  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    actually ps2 is the closest
    Yeah it uses fps instead of tab target combat but...
    It's fully persistent
    It has zero instances
    It supports huge battles
    It has 3 sides
    It has a simmilar power curve

    Wow and rift though - lolity frikin lol.
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