Originally posted by ShakyMo It still doesn't exist!
I know, so saying its due to Blizzard and ArenaNet telling everyone it would have balance is pointless. There was no balance before, or after, so it could not have changed the genre's attitude towards PvP.
We have the PvP we have today because of the direction it was being moved towards. There was no one single step taken. Before DaoC, PvP had no structure, it was just there. DaoC was the first game where the Developers took control over it, held players hands and created the reasons and situations for them, it even made it so gear was a factor and gave rewards for doing it not to mantion being the first game where CCing had massive effects taking much of the skill out of PvP.
WoW dropped the closed faction lands and hand holding from 1-50 towards central PvP lands and merely created PvP "instances" allowing players to PvP at earlier levels while unlocking the world to everyone. Personally I would rather have an open world with pvp in an instance than a world cut into 3, closed off and funnelled to the themepark PvP while I level...and they did that after making the game, keeping open world pvp there for everyone.
Either way, it was natural progression, not this massive sudden change.
So, the next time you see me bashing the idea of an IP being used to create another DaoC style game...know that it stems from the FACT that DaoC was the first step in trashing good PvP, and I am an open world PvPer that hates themepark PvP.
RvR is like your typical war between countries. Usually lots of people vs lots of people with the potential for widely ranging skills and abilities. Sometimes tactics, sometimes numbers sometimes skill wins the day.
hahahahahahaa
Hey, are you the Iraqi information minister? Seriously...what is this magical ability of RvR that makes it the only way to have pride and exclusive rights to tactics and skill that non RvR games just plain simple cannot have just because there are no realms...nevermind, the rose colored glasses make it impossible to answer that in a non-biased way.
?
Never mentioned pride.
Never mentioned exclusive rights to tactics or skill.
Simple gave a broad assessment of each type of PvP in my opinion based on my own personal experiences.
So whatever your problem or mental issues are please keep them to yourself.
Jason Gw1 and wow were the first games to do instanced pvp.
That's why I mention blizzard and arenanet.
Sure far too many people have cloned that setup since..... but they are the inventors of it, and also the only 2 to push the silly Esports in a mmo idea.
Please help me understand the appeal for such a terrible PvP concept...
#1. Everyone looks the same (Everyone of the same class will ultimately be wearing the same PvP gear).
#2. Redundant Gameplay - In order to obtain PvP gear, you must play the same few instances over and over and over again.
#3. What is "Massively Multiplayer" about 10 vs 10 Team Deathmatch, Domination, or Capture the Flag?
#4. Since there are so few instances, the best and obvious strategies are learned by all within the first month. Thus, gameplay becomes a rinse and repeat process.
#5. There is literally zero element of surprise. Everyone is pre-buffed and expecting combat. Everyone knows where the opposition is coming from. Everyone is ready. There is no such thing as an ambush or grand escape. There is no such thing as infiltration.
#6. Immersion Breaking... especially with concepts such as Huttball. Arena PvP ultimately makes the MMO feel dumbed down for children.
Instanced PvP is simply Developer Laziness. Instead of actually thinking about how to make a worldly and mature PvP system, developers decide that it's cheaper and easier to make these small instanced PvP zones. They know people will play anything for some type of item reward.
I say this with 100% confidence: If rewards were removed from Battlegrounds / Arenas, nobody would play them. Why? Because they are boring.
Those are all your own personal opinions and I disagree with all of them. I prefer arena, makes me feel like a gladiator or in rocket arena quake. Also fast paced and quicker than chasing someone down all over the world.
I've played hardcore FPS for years. In fact, I still play Quake Rocket Arena. Comparing MMO combat to Quake combat is a logical fallacy.
MMOs are supposed to be grand worlds. The genre has taken a gigantic dump and is ultimately paying the price, e.g., all these "big" mmos going under or "free-to-play". There is a reason for it and it's because of half-assed and redundant content (including warzones etc).
Well there's more skill involved in a fps than with tab target. Even in fps with progression like Tf2, it matters less as you can use skills to counter it.
Got no problems with match play in a fps.
It's the idea of paying a sub to sit in a city queueing to do pvp, that's over with in 5 minutes and highly dependent on gear and fotm class / build that I have no interest in.
At least with rvr and ffa open world systems strategy, communication, teamwork and morale play more of a role. Twitch skill is probably less, tactics about the same. But then those with true twitch skill shouldn't be playing a wow battleground or whatever, they should be playing cs:go or whatever, a true match of skill.
MMOs are supposed to be grand worlds. The genre has taken a gigantic dump and is ultimately paying the price, e.g., all these "big" mmos going under or "free-to-play". There is a reason for it and it's because of half-assed and redundant content (including warzones etc).
No. MMOs are not "supposed" to be anything. They are just games responding to market pressure.
And arena e-sport type pvp obvious has a lot of fans, whether you like it or not. Just look at how LoL is successful. It is no surprise that MMOs want a piece of that.
I'm amazed no ones made a dota / lol type f2p game but that clones wow arena. Surely it would make a fortune, why would people pay a wow sub if they can get the same thing for free, and probably have to queue less with a global match maker.
I'd like doing it if I had a team of friends over voice chat. Not really for the gear or anything, but just to see how well we could work together to defeat the guys on the other side.
The way it stands now in WoW though, I'm not really comfortable fighting alongside someone who I can't really communicate well with during the fight all the while relying on the value of the comp / gear to win.
Arena is really stressy, as with all competitive small cale PvP. But you do feel sort of an adrenaline rush from a victory because of that.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
It's the generation now mindset. It's about convenience. The fastest possible way to kill someone and get gear.
Gone are the days of working for what you get. Chasing your prey over several zone lines, or effectively escaping from someone who you shouldn't have gotten away from. Killing or defending for something other than gear is lost on many because it doesn't include a reward. Everyone today wants to feel like the birthday boy. They want to feel special. The best way to feel special for them is to get hollow rewards for a meaningless activity. They don't recognize that it's meaningless, it's just how they are. They all cry when they die. Now you can't even make them run back to their corpse, they can't be bothered by moving. Now there's LFG and LFD tools that instantly teleport them to their destinations. And so on and so forth. As I said, it's all about convenience because people today are crybabies. It may be an opinion, but it's the right opinion. If you enjoy arena PvP that has no real reward, that's fine I guess. Most of these games with PvP arenas have 'I WIN' items in them anyways, so don't try and shove the bullshit down our throats about showing your skill. The gap between max level players can be insurmountable depending on the gear. It's just a bad argument.
Originally posted by ShakyMo I'm amazed no ones made a dota / lol type f2p game but that clones wow arena. Surely it would make a fortune, why would people pay a wow sub if they can get the same thing for free, and probably have to queue less with a global match maker.
On the other hand, isn't Blizz making a DOTA game too?
It's the generation now mindset. It's about convenience. The fastest possible way to kill someone and get gear.
Gone are the days of working for what you get. Chasing your prey over several zone lines, or effectively escaping from someone who you shouldn't have gotten away from. Killing or defending for something other than gear is lost on many because it doesn't include a reward. Everyone today wants to feel like the birthday boy. They want to feel special. The best way to feel special for them is to get hollow rewards for a meaningless activity. They don't recognize that it's meaningless, it's just how they are. They all cry when they die. Now you can't even make them run back to their corpse, they can't be bothered by moving. Now there's LFG and LFD tools that instantly teleport them to their destinations. And so on and so forth. As I said, it's all about convenience because people today are crybabies. It may be an opinion, but it's the right opinion. If you enjoy arena PvP that has no real reward, that's fine I guess. Most of these games with PvP arenas have 'I WIN' items in them anyways, so don't try and shove the bullshit down our throats about showing your skill. The gap between max level players can be insurmountable depending on the gear. It's just a bad argument.
Of course it is about convenience .. we are talking about entertainment here. There is no real achievement. It is just wasting time. Any achievement is an illusion.
And since we are talking about illusions, may as well get the convenient ones. And personally i don't feel the requirement to walk 20 min before going into a dungeon is challenging, nor worth while work. It is just a boring filler gameplay that is no fun and waste of my time.
So yeah .. i am all for LFG/LFD tools .. in fact, won't play a MP game without it. (Even in a world pvp game like PS2, you are not require to walk 20 min before you see action .. you can just drop in on it).
Ever heard of games like Soccer or Chess? In these controlled-arena games players actually compete to seewho is more skilled(as opposed to who has played longer or who brings more friends.)
So basically arena PVP is the closest MMORPG PVP gets to being real PVP. Normally MMORPG PVP is Casual PVP.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
its pretty much the only way to keep pvp competive and "fair" since all is on equal ground (when they have geared up) and your 100 % confidence is just pulled outta your a** since games like CoD and all the different mobas don't offer much reward except the joy of outplaying your opponents
if you wan't to stick to MMO's i guess wow high ranking arenas and GW2 battleground or what its called is still thriving despite people being geared already and just playing to show how skilled they are.
Small Scale PvP will never be Fair.
thats the whole issue. I played WoW when they first added Arenas.
When a game has unique Classes with uniqueness, the small scale PvP will never be balanced.
Same reason Dueling isnt balanced around in the same game, is the same reason small scale Arena PvP wont be balanced.
No way to balance small scale PvP so that a TBC Ret Paladin and Protection Paladin, and Enh Shaman makes for a good team, no matter how skilled the players may be. They could be the best players in the whole game. But still will fall short due to Class combo.
Arena is never fair. Even Blizzard took note of this, but far too late.
What I don't understand is, why a whole thread is dedicated to discussing, why others like something that you don't.
There are people out there that likes a swift kick in the groin or getting feces smeared all over themselves. Instead of trying to understand why people like something, just accept that, that's just how it is.
Originally posted by fantasyfreak112 There is no appeal apparently. WoW arena's are almost completely dead this season and no one cares about GW2 from a competitive standpoint.
Because most who like e-sports already move to LoL and DOTA2?
What I don't understand is, why a whole thread is dedicated to discussing, why others like something that you don't.
There are people out there that likes a swift kick in the groin or getting feces smeared all over themselves. Instead of trying to understand why people like something, just accept that, that's just how it is.
You just answered you own question.
Some like to discuss why they don't understand others. Just accpet that, that's just how it is.
What I don't understand is, why a whole thread is dedicated to discussing, why others like something that you don't.
There are people out there that likes a swift kick in the groin or getting feces smeared all over themselves. Instead of trying to understand why people like something, just accept that, that's just how it is.
You just answered you own question.
Some like to discuss why they don't understand others. Just accpet that, that's just how it is.
What I don't understand is, why a whole thread is dedicated to discussing, why others like something that you don't.
There are people out there that likes a swift kick in the groin or getting feces smeared all over themselves. Instead of trying to understand why people like something, just accept that, that's just how it is.
You just answered you own question.
Some like to discuss why they don't understand others. Just accpet that, that's just how it is.
I didn't ask any question
You said "What I don't understand is, why a whole thread is dedicated to discussing, why others like something that you don't."
While you miss a question mark, isn't "why a whole thread is dedicated to discussion ..." .. a QUESTION?
Comments
I know, so saying its due to Blizzard and ArenaNet telling everyone it would have balance is pointless. There was no balance before, or after, so it could not have changed the genre's attitude towards PvP.
We have the PvP we have today because of the direction it was being moved towards. There was no one single step taken. Before DaoC, PvP had no structure, it was just there. DaoC was the first game where the Developers took control over it, held players hands and created the reasons and situations for them, it even made it so gear was a factor and gave rewards for doing it not to mantion being the first game where CCing had massive effects taking much of the skill out of PvP.
WoW dropped the closed faction lands and hand holding from 1-50 towards central PvP lands and merely created PvP "instances" allowing players to PvP at earlier levels while unlocking the world to everyone. Personally I would rather have an open world with pvp in an instance than a world cut into 3, closed off and funnelled to the themepark PvP while I level...and they did that after making the game, keeping open world pvp there for everyone.
Either way, it was natural progression, not this massive sudden change.
So, the next time you see me bashing the idea of an IP being used to create another DaoC style game...know that it stems from the FACT that DaoC was the first step in trashing good PvP, and I am an open world PvPer that hates themepark PvP.
?
Never mentioned pride.
Never mentioned exclusive rights to tactics or skill.
Simple gave a broad assessment of each type of PvP in my opinion based on my own personal experiences.
So whatever your problem or mental issues are please keep them to yourself.
Gw1 and wow were the first games to do instanced pvp.
That's why I mention blizzard and arenanet.
Sure far too many people have cloned that setup since..... but they are the inventors of it, and also the only 2 to push the silly Esports in a mmo idea.
I've played hardcore FPS for years. In fact, I still play Quake Rocket Arena. Comparing MMO combat to Quake combat is a logical fallacy.
MMOs are supposed to be grand worlds. The genre has taken a gigantic dump and is ultimately paying the price, e.g., all these "big" mmos going under or "free-to-play". There is a reason for it and it's because of half-assed and redundant content (including warzones etc).
Got no problems with match play in a fps.
It's the idea of paying a sub to sit in a city queueing to do pvp, that's over with in 5 minutes and highly dependent on gear and fotm class / build that I have no interest in.
At least with rvr and ffa open world systems strategy, communication, teamwork and morale play more of a role. Twitch skill is probably less, tactics about the same. But then those with true twitch skill shouldn't be playing a wow battleground or whatever, they should be playing cs:go or whatever, a true match of skill.
No. MMOs are not "supposed" to be anything. They are just games responding to market pressure.
And arena e-sport type pvp obvious has a lot of fans, whether you like it or not. Just look at how LoL is successful. It is no surprise that MMOs want a piece of that.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
I'd like doing it if I had a team of friends over voice chat. Not really for the gear or anything, but just to see how well we could work together to defeat the guys on the other side.
The way it stands now in WoW though, I'm not really comfortable fighting alongside someone who I can't really communicate well with during the fight all the while relying on the value of the comp / gear to win.
Arena is really stressy, as with all competitive small cale PvP. But you do feel sort of an adrenaline rush from a victory because of that.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
It's the generation now mindset. It's about convenience. The fastest possible way to kill someone and get gear.
Gone are the days of working for what you get. Chasing your prey over several zone lines, or effectively escaping from someone who you shouldn't have gotten away from. Killing or defending for something other than gear is lost on many because it doesn't include a reward. Everyone today wants to feel like the birthday boy. They want to feel special. The best way to feel special for them is to get hollow rewards for a meaningless activity. They don't recognize that it's meaningless, it's just how they are. They all cry when they die. Now you can't even make them run back to their corpse, they can't be bothered by moving. Now there's LFG and LFD tools that instantly teleport them to their destinations. And so on and so forth. As I said, it's all about convenience because people today are crybabies. It may be an opinion, but it's the right opinion. If you enjoy arena PvP that has no real reward, that's fine I guess. Most of these games with PvP arenas have 'I WIN' items in them anyways, so don't try and shove the bullshit down our throats about showing your skill. The gap between max level players can be insurmountable depending on the gear. It's just a bad argument.
Yep, agree.
feel like a crochety old git now though.
On the other hand, isn't Blizz making a DOTA game too?
Of course it is about convenience .. we are talking about entertainment here. There is no real achievement. It is just wasting time. Any achievement is an illusion.
And since we are talking about illusions, may as well get the convenient ones. And personally i don't feel the requirement to walk 20 min before going into a dungeon is challenging, nor worth while work. It is just a boring filler gameplay that is no fun and waste of my time.
So yeah .. i am all for LFG/LFD tools .. in fact, won't play a MP game without it. (Even in a world pvp game like PS2, you are not require to walk 20 min before you see action .. you can just drop in on it).
Arena in WOW is awesome.
Super competitve and an accutal rating is given to each team and the best compete @ tournaments and ultimatly @ blizzcon for over $100k .
(They can then make a good living @ sites like skillcapped.)
http://www.skill-capped.com/
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/area-52/Ghostmourn/simple
Heres my rogue from wow @ the bottom you can see his arena teams and rating.
Its alot of fun, I think the same kind of ranked play in moba's is equally intesnse
Ever heard of games like Soccer or Chess? In these controlled-arena games players actually compete to see who is more skilled (as opposed to who has played longer or who brings more friends.)
So basically arena PVP is the closest MMORPG PVP gets to being real PVP. Normally MMORPG PVP is Casual PVP.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Small Scale PvP will never be Fair.
thats the whole issue. I played WoW when they first added Arenas.
When a game has unique Classes with uniqueness, the small scale PvP will never be balanced.
Same reason Dueling isnt balanced around in the same game, is the same reason small scale Arena PvP wont be balanced.
No way to balance small scale PvP so that a TBC Ret Paladin and Protection Paladin, and Enh Shaman makes for a good team, no matter how skilled the players may be. They could be the best players in the whole game. But still will fall short due to Class combo.
Arena is never fair. Even Blizzard took note of this, but far too late.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
LoL begs to differ. You can pick any heroes. That is fair.
What I don't understand is, why a whole thread is dedicated to discussing, why others like something that you don't.
There are people out there that likes a swift kick in the groin or getting feces smeared all over themselves. Instead of trying to understand why people like something, just accept that, that's just how it is.
Because most who like e-sports already move to LoL and DOTA2?
You just answered you own question.
Some like to discuss why they don't understand others. Just accpet that, that's just how it is.
I didn't ask any question
You said "What I don't understand is, why a whole thread is dedicated to discussing, why others like something that you don't."
While you miss a question mark, isn't "why a whole thread is dedicated to discussion ..." .. a QUESTION?